08/03/2012 Hearts and Minds

Hello, and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week. Schools in

crisis, but is it ideology or the interests of pupils driving change?

Is the Government dressing up benefit cuts to look like sound

economic sense? Political parties in the Republic will face financial

penalties if they don't have more women candidates. Would it work

here? The picture of our education system

revealed in this week's viability audit is a depressing one. 84% of

our secondary schools and 46% of our primaries are in trouble with

regard to falling numbers, falling standards or financial shortfall.

The minister John O'Dowd insists the audit is not a charter for

closing schools, but he does seem to believe that ending selection

would be a big step on the road to recovery. A thought rejected by the

DUP, whose Education Committee chairman, Mervyn Storey, is with me,

along with the Sinn Fein Education spokesman Daithi McKay. Metal you

have pointed out that this has emerged at the end of

administration by you cannot say Sinn Fein are responsible for the

wider ills affecting educational standards, so why you not just

making cheap points? But think what we are demonstrating recently is

that we are prepared to work with the minister and the Department to

tried to find solutions. But it has to be faced up to the fact that

during the time that Sinn Fein has had indication we have not seen a

dramatic change. If this is a snapshot in time of our schools, it

is a very poor reflection of that 10 year, a poor reflection of the

way that the minister and the PDS ministers had dealt with the issue.

They are not responsible for falling rolls. But they are

responsible for setting the policy context in which our education

system is to the third. The audits need to be put in context. There is

a question that has not been asked of the Department of Education. The

benchmark for the grammar schools was said in GCSEs at A * to grade C.

But the benchmark for the non- selective was five GCSEs at A * to

grade C, and 25% was the benchmark. That was way below even the

Northern Ireland average. A huge health warning has to be with the

way in which these figures are being interpreted. However, there

certainly are huge challenge is said there in relation to the

future education of by Joe people. To you accept responsibility for

the state this snapshot shows? you to look at the figures, it

shows that the number of young people that are getting good

teacher sees from a starter grade C has increased to 59% and it looks

set to increase again. Sinn Fein have been saying for some time that

we need change in education and the DUP have set their face against

change. They have said we have a world-class education system but

these figures clearly show that is not the case. The minister

associate sustainability with an end to selection. That is a big

leap. Ending selection will not fix the ills of the Northern Ireland

education system. The most recent OECD's report shows clearly that

those countries with the best education systems are countries

which do not have academic selection and they are of those

countries that Major in leadership within schools and educational

quality. That is what we need to do here. You are saying that is the

first thing that needs to be done. But is the first thing that needs

to be done. We need to do away with academic selection, we need to

change the education system to be fit for purpose in the 21st century.

We have the equivalent of 150 m to schools and that is unsustainable.

The minister himself says that the grammar schools are already

adapting to a wide academic range, so what is the problem? The problem

is that the grammar schools quite clearly on not delivering in terms

of their results. 35% of those are demonstrating some degree of stress.

That is the same across the board and in particular the controlled

sector are demonstrating stress as well. There's a need to see what

the issues are they enter bring about some change. We need change

and the other parties need to stop sitting there face against this. I

would agree that we need to have a mature debate about this. These

catcalls on the side about this being a hit list are ridiculous.

This is the start of a process and we need a mature debate. You're not

going to agree tonight or any other night that the first thing that

needs to be done is ending selection. I think it is

regrettable that given the set of circumstances of these figures, but

the best that Sinn Fein 10, with his having the same old ideological

debate. I think people up watch this programme tonight will want to

know what other solutions. There are serious issues in relation to

the finance. Is it not part of this pollution, pants? I think we have

this Fleche -- situation where the Catholic Church has been unable to

make the change. The grammar schools themselves are part us not

the best arbiters of the future. That is an issue for the Catholic

church themselves and they have been unable to address that issue.

We have to ensure that instead of having an ideological attack on

certain sectors of the education system, there we focus on

educational outcomes. I will give you one example. A school that I am

familiar with other personal basis was deemed to be a failing school.

That school has given 84% of the young people leaving very good

outcomes and very good entertainment. I think there what

is clear in this debate is that the arguments around having larger

schools, I am very concerned when I listen to the Department, I hear

this repeated talk about larger schools. In these figures, some of

the largest pools are the ones under severe stress. By it is all

about area planning. That is something that pretty much everyone

does agree on. That is what I was going to come on to. We have to

look at the process of area planning and in shoring that we

cannot continue to replicate in every corner of the country four or

five different schools. But what we can do and what we must do is

ensure that the educational outcome for our children is the best that

we possibly can. Let us dispense with these ideological wars and

deal with the reality. There is a major core of agreement that area

planning and sharing facilities is very much the way that it has to go

immediately. So why not forget about selection for the moment and

get on with making better success? We would view shared education in

different ways, not just shared religious background but also

economic background. There is a working group to look at the issue

of shared education and there will be convening in the coming months

and that is something that has already been successful in a number

of areas. That will not only have benefits in terms of our whole

community but also in terms of financial savings. So absolutely

there are areas of agreement. But in terms of the quality of

education, I think that is what we need to keep going back to. The

minister has put in place to tame and framework legislation which

will increase their choice for key stage 4 Mac and five pupils.

does it relate to there being a social mix? It has been proven

internationally. It is healthy at the primary level, so why not a

pose primary level? Report after report and stake holder at the

stake holder, the churches, the trade unions, are saying that

academic selection is failing. reassurance came you did pair is

that something will be done in the very short term to improve this? --

can you give parents. We still have a very good basis to build on our

education system. Comparing ourselves to other OECD countries

is not a fair comparison. But one thing that has to be addressed is

our primary schools. Why is one in four of our children leaving

primary school not having attained levels of numeracy and literacy?

There is a huge issue a red making sure that adequate resources placed

in the primary schools. It is a siege debate, thank you very much.

Isn't it strange that when unemployment goes up, governments

start fretting about people scamming their benefits? We didn't

get much of that through the good times. Some politicians seem to be

taking comfort from the delusion that there would be no unemployment

if the poor were more willing to work. Yet Tories have had to be

more circumspect about the terms in which they sneer at the lower

orders. During the riots last year, Cameron was happy to blame

parenting and failed families. He'd never raised any doubts about the

parenting of those who had gambled with our savings and investments.

It is instinctive for some Conservatives to turn a practical

economic problem into a moral problem. You would think they would

need little reminding of the real reason the economy is in crisis and

get over the fantasy that it is down to the workshy. But when stuck

for measures that will provide the magic of cutting the deficit and

expanding the economy at the same time, Cameron and Osborne look

around to see who is really to blame. And they don't light on the

banks and the investment houses and the tax avoiders. No, inevitably

when they conjure up an image of the real problem with this society

in their minds, it always looks like a feckless kid in a hoodie or

a young woman with a baby, or a large family living on benefits in

a big house. Occasionally all the corrosive toxins in our capitalist

system even morph in their minds into the image of a person in a

wheelchair, for, since the money available to government for public

spending has shrunk, ministers have started thinking about how they can

take it back from the disabled too. They want to claw back some child

benefit. But the party is mortified to recall the old days of the Iron

Lady, when cutting came with sneering at single mothers. Today

the argument is framed differently, in terms of fairness to the

overburdened tax payer who should never be funding the poor to have

more money than the average worker. The case is best made over high

housing benefit to poor families in London, but they are hardly the

ones to blame for the crazy property market. But many people

sense it is fair to pinch hard on the those who take benefits. At the

same time they are not so keen on the same government translating its

commitment to a competitive market into restructuring the health

service. No, thinks the stock voter, that could be me in need of

hospital care some day. They are less able to see that they might be

in need of housing benefit or the DLA. Or free travel. Nelson

McCausland hinted the other day that he might be coming after my

This was a thriving workplace with hundreds of mill workers plyed

their trade. And this stablity tue also commemorates the Millys.

Belfast remembering its female workers of many years ago. It was

ten women. It eped up 18, think 14 women successfully completed it.

This week certificates were given out to bus tour guides who will

remind those taking their tour, of women's contribution including that

of the Millys to the city's history. A history many believe is too often

ignored and in much the same way too they say is the contribution

women can make to politics here. The life experiences of men are

different than the life experiences of women, for instance women are

more likely to be the main carer, let us say in their family, so when

they are making decisions they take into account those issues, so such

as childcare, education, health, Social Security, budgeting. Not

that men don't do that but women bring a different perspective. I

don't think women are there in enough numbers. The political

parties say they would like to see more women in politics. At the

moment only one in five of the MLAs is female. Women, it is said are

reluctant to put themselves forward because of what is known as the

five Cs. Cash. Women don't have as much as women. Childcare, culture,

confidence and candidate selection. Yes we need to ask more women, and

in doing that it is not enough to ask them. We have to say this is

what we are going to do for you. I can say to you, if I asked a woman

to go and do something, the immediate reaction is I can can't

do that. There is a confidence issue there, and we have to look at

that and what do we need to put in place to give women the confidence

to go and say, right I'm going to stand as a public representative.

Calm down dear. Listen. Listen to the doctor. Calm down and listen to

the doctor. David Cameron denied been sexist but many women are put

off by whey they see as the male and boar Irish nature of politics.

I said calm down. So how do the parties get more female involvement

and more accurately reflect wider society? In a job many say is 24/7.

The Republic is going down the path of quotas. Parties will cease to

get state funding after the next general election if they have more

than 70% of candidates of either sex, men or women and further

penalised if more than 60% by 2020. It is a move supported by Sinn Fein.

Many in the SDLP say some merit in quotas but the party hasn't

endorsed it. While Alliance and the two main unionist parties oppose

the concept. If I was to get here because I was a woman I would doubt

myself continually whether I was good enough, and to I have got here

I got 4,500 votes and the people were behind me, the party was

behind me, I got so much encouragement and I think that,

that gives you the confidence to go forward. Merit. Any woman who gets

elected, regardless of their ideology or political opinions,

whether they are from the left or the right, any woman has had to do

twice the amount of work. Let me tell you that. So anyone who says

women aren't here on merit, we are here on merit, but we need to make

sure there is a critical mass of women. While the parties here say

they would like to see more women MLAs they are nevertheless divided

by policies and traditions. Many of Margaret Thatcher's greatest

critics were women. Sisterhood has its limits. There is one area where

there is agreement. Politics could be more family friendly, for both

men and women. I am very fortunate my husband works from home and I

represent East Belfast so I don't have to travel that far, so I have

made that decision, and you know, my children are picked up and fed

in the evening, but it must be very difficult for people from further

afield, to do all the travelling etc as well. The Scandinavian

country, which put great emphasis on childcare, are often held up as

role models for encouraging women's involvement in politics and public

life, and the international hit television show features a Danish

woman Prime Minister. Within a year, life imitated art. When the country

got its first female leader, her husband is the son of a former

Labour Party leader Neil Kinnock. Back in Northern Ireland, the

students at Queen's University have organised a tea party for

international women's day. Long gone are the days when women in

political parties made the tea, while the men made the decisions.

And while there has been greater female involvement in politics,

those lobbying for more believe the parties could do more. The women

who are our MLAs have been asked by senior people within the party to

run, so this means it is not they are putting themselves forward, and

that is maybe not such a barrier, it is the parties need to ask

capable women to run, so that could be a quick solution. I think to

having more women in political decision making. Having more female

MLAs would better reflect the wired society but wouldn't heal the many

division and while the tone of political debate might soften, hard

to solve problems would remain. One wonders whether she would have been

amused. Let us pursue this further with my guests the Alliance MP

Naomi Long and Fionola Meredith. You are broadly in favour of quotas

but you have some concerns, you talk about the Sarah Palin syndrome.

I am broadly in favour of them. I don't like the idea of them, but I

think probably, they are necessary, and in the ABC sense of significant

progress in terms of getting more women involved. We have to take

difficult measure, I understand while female politicians say no, we

want to get here on our own merit but the pace of change is so slow.

As for the Sarah Palin effect. What I mean by that, is there are some

women in politics, already, that I don't particularly like, I don't

share their view, I don't share their value bus what I think, and

Sarah Palin would be an extreme example I suppose of someone I

think would be disastrous in politics, I wouldn't want her to

represent me. I would have nothing in common with her except for the

family she is -- fact she is a woman and so am I. We need women of

all political stripes in politics, right across the board from

Conservative to progressive. Because it is a matter of fairness.

Women make up more than half the population so their views and all

their diversity should be preserved. You are opposed nay -- Naomi. It is

not happening so let us have a quota. My argument back on that it

is happening. For example in my own party 42% of Government

representatives are female. 33% of Parliamentarians are female. We

have good reputations at all level. It can happen, but you have to have

fairness and for me I joined the Alliance Party because I don't

believe discrimination is never right. If you are the man who loses

out to the woman who has been positively discriminated for you

won't think of it as a positive experience. For me it is about

being fair and open but being proactive. When I see talent I want

to see it promoted, I want to see the people who have real talent and

ability representing the party, it is in the party's interest and mine

and in the interest of their constituencies, so whether it is

male or fey mail I am going to encourage them to come forward and

believe in them. One of the five Cs which our film meanted was culture,

and what a quota can do is change it. Look at the 50-50 in the PSNI.

That is a way forward. I don't want to get side tracked by that. There

were other changes in the organisation, that changes the

dynamics, I think we need to change the culture, I agree with that. You

can change it in an organisation, I would hate women to think all men

are hostile to them. I don't think that. But when things are wrong you

have to take uncomfortable steps some times to change them. I think

50-50 in the police is relevant here, because that was manifestly

wrong, and we had to take those steps and there is a cost to taking

those steps and there would be a cost here. I don't like the idea of

quotas but change is so patheticly slow. There are so many pompous old

wind bags dominating the political system. How will we change that?

think there are lots of ways. You can encourage women to put their

names forward. You can be a role model. It is too slow. I am not

sure it S for example in my constituency in East Belfast we

have two assembly members. 50 percent of councillors are female.

That happened in a short period. you have a quota doesn't it make

the parties look harder for suitable women? I don't think it

does. What it can do is set up a negative dynamic where people they

that in some way even though they have done the work, even though

they are credible, they are at a disadvantage because they are male.

In alliance when we go through candidate selection we are looking

for the best person. That best person more than half the time will

be a woman, so that is what we should be trying to find. I don't

have an issue with there being lots of women in politic. I have an

issue of them being advantaged over their male counterpart, because

that can can set up negative dynamics. They need a leg up to get

in. I don't think they do. I think they can do it for themselves, what

we need to to encourage them to believe they K. That is a point

that should be emphasised, confidence was mentioned the five

cfplts. Confidence is at the top of the pile I used to work for an

organisation that encouraged women to get into politics, when I went

out an did workshops this is what came across. "Oh no, I couldn't do

that." If there are these wind bag, they are not the once who will be

Tay saying come on you can do this? They might not. I would hope none

of my colleagues fall into that category. Maybe I do, I don't know.

I think what we try to do is find talent that comes through the party

and promote it. That is important. The other thing we need to bear in

mind is we have to be potstive about the job we do, if it is going

to be attractive to other people. I know lots of men who find

politicians wind bags and who would be able to bring something new to

politics. It is about diversifying the number of people in politics so

it is more representative. It is ability retention. This is

important, getting people elected or selected is not the end of the

road. It is making the job such people can do it and be rewarded be

it. At the beginning of the bar period it is something like al-42

women to men, after seven years it has gone down to 50-50. That

implies women will drop out. That probably has a lot to do with

family and childcare. One of the five Cs. It is hard for women, I

wouldn't want to be a politician because I am a mum and have

prioritise, it would be difficult but it is necessary that more

women's voices are heard, but it can't just be an aspirational thing

that hopefully it will happen with time and we kirge women. We need to

take more definite measures and you are talking about your party but

parties in general need to be more open, and demonstrate it.

statistic, one in five, 18% of MLAs are women, in Wales 41.7% are women.

In Scotland 34.9. Westminster it is 22. In Dublin it is 15. That is why

they are taking action. We are not mangeing quick progress. You need

to put that to the parties who aren't stepping up. From my

perspective there are two principles. The one of fairness in

terms of selection and that is importantment and the other is the

one of fairnesss in terms of reputation. That should bring

forward more women. They are not in conflict. I don't think it is just

aspirational. For me it is a practical thing, about how we do

our politics, when, how we get young women engaged, how we reach

out to them, how we give them the confidence to believe if they want

to try something they can. It is not just in politics it is in non-

traditional sectors I am inusual if I have never worked in a predop

naantly female arena. I worked as an engineer. That probably stood

you in good stead. We have to let women have choices. It is not about

forces them. It is facilitating them to do it. There are outdated

ideas about women in this country, that women aren't good leaders,

they don't have the clout that women maybe premenstrual and people

don't say them, be those ideas are still there and holds women back

too. I agree. Thank you both very much indeed. There we must leave it.

We will do it again next week at the usual times. I hope you join me.

What kept you? Don't ask. Some carry on this week Northern Ireland,

we have torld world's best golfer, film-makers and politician, two out

of three aren't bad. Alex Attwood on his own is more influential. The

security guards have more power than Tom Elliott. If our

politicians arblt hospitalable they are going to football you. Can't go

to a soccer match without some politician making an important