10/11/2011 Hearts and Minds

Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week: Alasdair

McDonnell gives himself six months to get the SDLP back on track. Is

it too tall an order? Can a Sinn Fein Culture Minister

protect and promote the Irish Language?

Would opposition save the smaller parties from the risk of oblivion?

And are we all doomed? The implications of the expanding

eurozone crisis. The new SDLP leader says the party

will lose even more support if it hasn't shown itself to be fit for

electoral battle at the end of six months. Alasdair McDonnell is with

me. Congratulations on your election. Are you happy with the

light? Very happy! Cheap shot, but I had to get that in. You said that

all that was wrong with the party was they did not get enough votes.

Yes, I believe that. Do you believe you have to be more organised or

find a more distinct identity? have a very strong policies and a

clear vision. We can have a united people living in peace, reconciled

piece, living on this island. that is your existing identity, no

one has bought it. You have lost half of your vote over 12 years.

People have bought it. People wanted their -- The DUP and Sinn

Fein to come in from the cold. They have allowed them to hijack the

Executive system of Stormont. Stability is great, but there is a

distinction between stability and paralysis. And that is what we have.

How do you got about changing? People want us to start developing

Stormont. I believe the reinvigorated SDLP will be in a

position to challenge that and move on. How do you start your

reinvigoration? By getting people to come to meetings? You have many

branches which never meet. Firstly, I would start with our gaps and our

shortcomings. We have places where we have lost Assembly seats and

places where we should have won them. Then we can look at places

where we should have more council seats. What about energy and drive?

Let me finish. I have lined up many people across the party at local

level to appoint a whole series of constituency representatives. If

you like, so it or apprentice MLAs. I know we can fill the gaps. The

people are there and they have said they want to do this. These are

people who want to compete for a Assembly or council seat at the

next election. Let empower them and led them lose. You talk about

collective leadership. Will these local branches have the right to

choose a potentially losing ticket? There is this dichotomy between

strong central leadership and local decision-making. Which do you want?

In the past, we have allowed a certain amount a drift to take

place. We can no longer afford that. We must find -- recreated a

situation and I hold my hands up to situations like West Tyrone where

we shredded our world there with three candidates. That will not

happen again under my watch. We will do research. We will prepare

now for elections in three years' time. We will do the research and

make a proper assessment, rather than allow our cells to drift into

a selection convention after local level where the sums have not yet

been done. You talk about emphasising the party's Social

Democratic back ground. You talk about criticisms of the Tory cuts,

for example. What policy can you come up with that old generate more

money? The SDLP would just have to take what comes from Westminster,

like any other party. Let me emphasise that social justice is at

the very core of our values. We want to see social justice across

the city and across northern Alan. We're under committed to that than

most other parties. Others are looking for social justice for

themselves. We're looking at it for everybody. Secondly, if we produce

some tremendous financial papers over the last few years at show

were money can be shifted within the block grant. We were told it

was nonsense. Get the Minister for Finance picked up those ideas

within 12 months. The ideas and the opportunities are there if.

electorate did not give you the benefit of that. The electorate was

looking for stability and wanted to stains it -- sustained stability.

They wanted parties to comment to be house-trained and locked into

the system. The problem is that that stability has become paralysis.

No legislation is coming out of Stormont. People expect more. They

deserve more. The economic situation out there is scary for.

He will hold a conference on the economy. What good will that do?

The economy is important to people. We will look at a whole range of

people within the economy -- a whole range of things within the

economy. I have spoken to the Minister for Agriculture in the

South recently. Food production is a real opportunity here. China is

eating all we can get their hands on. We can forget about food coming

from Australia and New Zealand in the past. That has gone. Equally,

Brazil. Agriculture and food production is already something of

a success on the island. You don't really need to worry about that.

Weekend double our food output. We have to double the production of

food and dramatically increase the processing of food. This is acclaim,

a green island. Whether north or south, we can produce the food that

people across Europe will look at and say it is clean and healthy and

he has all. That is what I want to do. But I want to look at renewable

energy because energy prices, people will be given a choice of

heating or eating next winter. A lot of our elderly people will see

serious difficulties. Do you accept there is nothing you can do to get

more money into Northern Ireland? Or of the parties have to follow

what comes from the Treasury. It is not the fault of Sinn Fein and the

DUP. I think they can do better. Firstly, make arguments with the

Treasury. Secondly, in handling the money that they get. All we do is

top slice it and strangle it and squeeze it to death. -- all they do.

Peter Robinson has been to Downing Street many times. We have to make

more robust and stronger arguments. There has been paralysis over

corporation tax. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. We have to be

creative and create strengths -- create opportunities for the

businesses out there that are working. When you get the finance,

I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a political system where

all we're doing is fiddling around how we divide up a block grant. We

have to be creative and show some initiative and ambition. There is a

lot we can do in terms of job creation and job promotion. There

is a whole array of things we can do around tourism, for instance.

That is what Our economic conference will be about. Where

does this put Irish unity in your list of priorities? In the list of

my priorities, and or Irish unity is about reconciling the people

across this island. That is about reconciliation in the north and

then across everyone. How? It is about removing barriers. I want

people in the North to go to Dublin whenever they like. We have a lot

of fear or here which we have to demolish. Reconciliation is the key

note. You talk about the Forum on a unity, but Sinn Fein were within

striking distance of the presidency, for heaven's sake. They were within

striking distance of nothing. He was expecting 20% of the vote and

he got 13. They came third. Where did you come? We have a very clear

focus on what our objectives are. We're out to reconcile people

across the island, not to divide them. Not to create divisions which

should not be there. We will work at that. There would be no tat is

that the people have given us the remit to reconcile with in the

north which means reaching out all the time to people. We want

reconciliation and to bring people together. We will not beat people

into a united Ireland. Your predecessor was the first to wear a

poppy. Would you wear one? Are not at this stage. Many members wear

them and some choose not to. I am happy if people want to wear them.

I will pay my respects on Sunday. I don't think you have to wear a

poppy for that. What about your ministers? I am confident in the

person you mentioned. I cannot predict where we will be this time

next year. What I intend doing is creating that collective leadership

and talent base through other party. We have former leaders. Nine Deputy

Leader and others. I intend to work with them. There are no plans for

anyone to move. I will be forging the best possible team I can within

the party. You are an MP and yet you have this colossal task ahead

of you of reinvigorating the party. How and it can you serve the party

and you Belfast constituent? constituents are happy. You have

not started a job yet! I have a duty with me. I will continue to

serve my constituents. I will be wherever I am needed and do

whatever I need to do. I have good time management. Ultimately, my

primary task is to lead and rebuild the SDLP. Beyond that, I will be

wherever I am need it. Number one, the party. Number two, the

constituency. My job is to sort out the SDLP, the leadership of the

SDLP, first of all. The constituency will be well served

within that. Congratulations again. Thank you.

The idea of a joint UUP-SDLP opposition is so ridiculous you

have to marvel at how many people - even within both parties - are

discussing it. You might say stranger things have happened. The

DUP and Sinn Fein share power. But they have to share to get power.

They wouldn't share to get no power, and neither would anyone else. The

UUP's Mike Nesbitt gave that game away this week when he said he'd

like an opposition system, but not so his party could be in opposition.

There are some places in the world, especially Africa, where you do get

opposition coalitions. But only before an election. After the

election, it's back to every opposition party for itself. Losing

is a terrible basis for cooperating, and that's before you consider the

unique problems of our two local losers. Now that everyone has

conceded the principle of power- sharing, the SDLP and UUP are

basically Sinn Fein and DUP-lite. If they walked out of the executive

and caused enough of a crisis to get the rules changed, it wouldn't

give us a new kind of politics. It would just give us a choice between

two almost identical kinds of politics. And that's only if it

worked, which of course it wouldn't. First, the UUP and SDLP can't cause

a big enough crisis to get the rules changed. Stormont's rules

only require the largest party from each side to show up. So you have

to be top dog before you stick a spanner in the works. It won't work

Second, even if by some miracle Sinn Fein and the DUP agreed to a

formal opposition system, there's no way the UUP and the SDLP could

manage it together. They can't even manage themselves separately. Some

parts of the SDLP speak so rarely to each other you could almost call

it a cell structure. And look at the UUP's recent history of cross-

party deals, with the Tories or the PUP. That, rather than some bright

new dawn, is how a deal with the SDLP would pan out. These are two

parties with nothing in common except decline and desperation, as

Sinn Fein and the DUP would have a field day pointing out. So why is

anyone even discussing such a dreadful idea? It's not because

Stormont's rules are unnatural and a more parliamentary democracy must

evolve. Stormont is just a glorified county council. It can

share power out to all parties as happily as your nearest town hall.

In fact better cross-community power sharing is the supposed

selling point of a UUP-SDLP pact. No, this idea is being discussed

because the situation of both parties is so clearly hopeless that

last chance options are now on the table. And a joint arrangement is

seen as the last chance because their fate is so obviously

connected. It's the logic of tribal politics, once one community stops

splitting its vote, the other will soon follow. Alasdair McDonnell may

have got the lights back on but he and Tom Elliot are wrestling with

the dimmer switch of history. In the 50 years before the Troubles,

Northern Ireland had one big unionist party, one big

nationalists party and a rag-bag of independents and little parties in

between. That's our natural state, and now we don't need a war and a

peace party each, we're going back to it.

The thoughts of Newton Emerson. It's six years since the St

Andrew's Agreement promised an Irish Language Act. Successive DUP

Culture Ministers stifled it, but can the latest Sinn Fein incumbent

push it along? And with the bodies which foster the language

themselves under financial threat, Julia Paul finds Irish in need of

all the friends it can get. For next generation of our Irish

speakers at school in Belfast. -- for next. For them, it's a way of

life but in Northern Ireland, of the line was language has no legal

statement -- status. This is a major part of the work at the Irish

language organisation. People here have been arguing for an act for

Northern Ireland since 2003. This is the only part of these islands

where the primary indigenous language is not protected by

legislation. What you have is an exceptional situation in relation

to the protection of Irish. Domestic legislation would redress

the situation, redress that anomaly. I think it would make it much

easier for Irish because to understand what their rights are

and to use those rights. It would make it easier for civil servants

and public bodies to know what it is they have to do and to deliver

their services and to do that in a way which is cost-effective and

pre-planned. It was 2006, and the St Andrews agreement, when it was

agreed that the government would bring forward legislation to

promote the Irish language. In the the last Assembly, the department

of culture, arts and leisure was held by the DUP. The party opposed

the actor and as it needed cross- party support, plans were shelved.

Now we have a Sinn Fein minister. What has changed? A code for member

ask the question... Could the member asked the question and

translate, please? Mr Deputy Speaker, I was in the process of

asking a question when he interrupted me. I shall now

translated as required by the Rules of the house. Would the member sit

down, please? One of the ways of depoliticise the Irish language is

to give the people the right they are asking for. After that there is

no issue with it. One of the benefits of an Irish Language Act

would be to ensure that Irish can no longer be used as a political

football and both the Unionist parties have said that is what they

would like to see. The minister did not want to do an

interview but is understood to want to bring forward proposals for an

act in the New Year. In the meantime, the economic situation

has changed. The bodies that advocate for the Irish language and

Northern Ireland are not funded by a... They are funded by the All

Ireland body. That body is also looking to change the way it hands

out funding. Out of seven organisations that could be

affected in the North, 40 % of those organisations are now faced

with closure. I think while the proposals will have a detrimental

effect throughout the island, in the North it will be particularly

bad. How can you put an Irish language if there is no voluntary

sector left to do the work? It is not the only group under threat.

Part of the work of the trust in Belfast is to promote the Irish

language to the Unionist community. Basically, we will be disqualified

from applying for funding because our work is mainly within Northern

Ireland and we don't operate on an All Ireland basis. He did that for

a very good reason. It is because we respond to the particular

conditions in Northern Ireland. We do not believe that any All-Ireland

based organisation would be able to have a board that includes people

who are passionate about the Irish language but also a passionate

about maintaining the link with Great Britain. We have both

Unionist and nationalists on our board. That would not happen --

happen in an All-Ireland body. There has to be a review. Currently,

the organisation funds 19 other organisations across the island

which takes 7.2 million of their 20 million euros budget. That budget

is decreasing and they have to streamline. That could mean the

funding just nine projects. Seven of which are based in the Republic

of Ireland. Surely you must accept that it because we have no act in

Northern Ireland to protect their his language, by withdrawing

funding from those organisations that promoted, you are inevitably

going to damage the Irish language sector. This organisation, since

its inception, has taken into account the different circumstances

north and south when drawing up schemes. We will continue to do so.

Who will expect a successful applicants for any of the schemes

to show that they can provide a service to the Irish lineage

community and to the wider community in Northern Ireland. We

have done so since our inception and will continue to do so.

Irish medium schools, lessons are continuing, despite the debates

about the status of the language. Those campaigning for an act say

they will continue to do so as long as they have funding. The other

propositions say they are consulting on that, unless that is

resolved it looks as if there will be fewer jobs for Irish speakers in

the future. The travails facing the Irish

language. As Italy battles to save its economy from bailout, and

Germany and France again raise the prospect of a two tier Europe, the

whole European economy seems balanced on a knife edge. So are we

all doomed? I'm joined from Dublin by the economist Charles Larkin.

Welcome. Can we, on this island, sit in a relaxed mode and watch the

crisis evolved in Italy or are we still in a visit to our next?

are very much in the middle of this crisis and there is no way that

Britain or Ireland can ignore it. The financial integration of both

Ivan's is so complete in to the eurozone that if anything went a

cropper on the Continent, it would have profound implications not only

for Ireland as a member of the eurozone, under the stress, but

also for Britain and its independent currency, the sterling,

because of a bank exposure. worried should we be about the

contagion reaching Italy and France? We should be concerned

because the principal way they should deal with this sort of

problem is through central banks and the central bank that acts as a

lender of last resort. Effectively, it attempts to manage tie is the

problem away. In the case of the European Central Bank, they put

measured doses into the bond market to try to stop the contagion and to

try to heal some of the winds in the Italian bond market but they do

not have a legal mandate to continue this in... Not like the

way in which the Bank of England would work in Britain. The

contagion, ultimately, has to be For -- dealt with at a political

level, a supranational level, and the European Commission, European

Central Bank and ultimately the principal actor in this, the German

government, and the Bundesbank, have to come up to her decision

that is politically acceptable and as effective. Otherwise, we are

looking at over one trillion Euros worth of Italian bonds having to be

restructured, which is the concern of eminent Rooker -- economists

around the world. Of course, the fear for Angela Merkel is that if

Germany will not agree, or the German people are not happy about

continually break -- bailing out other nations. Well, that is a

double-edged sword because if they don't bail out the southern

European nations, German banks are going to have massive exposure.

Because the European system was designed to integrate the financial

system of Europe, the result has been that all the countries are

interconnected and the exposure of the banking sector in Germany is

exposed to the Baltic, Ireland, Italy, Greece, the French banking

sector is exposed to Italy and Greece. Ultimately, all of the

banking sectors of Europe have decided that the only way to have

saved culpable -- capital was to have sovereign bonds. They were

supposed to be as good as gold. Unfortunately, this has not been

found out to be true. There have been found out to be risky. Of the

German government does not step in and allow changes to be -- to take

place to German structures, that the ECB cannot make interventions,

then the eurozone is facing an existential crisis. To be honest,

that is the key question for Angela Merkel. Does she want to be the

German premiere that is responsible for Europe by the falling apart or

for Germany -- Europe facing taking on a fundamentally different

character than what was envisaged - - envisioned inventive 59. She has

been talking about bringing about greater integration to allow

European central oversight over individual economies. That is

surely terribly politically risky. We know how hard it was to get the

Lisbon treaty through Ireland, to Holland as the British would surely

insist on some kind of referendum if there were to be further change

in prospect. Again, the whole exercise could simply fall apart.

In the case of further integration, it is a question of fiscal

integration and whether or not European capitals will allow a

significant part of their political portfolio, which is the making of

budgets, to be transferred to Brussels. In the case of Ireland,

that has always happened in a de facto set its because our budgets

are being dictated by the troika. For countries that have not

undergone rescues, it is going to be a fundamental question to them.

It will not be an easy thing for the capitals of Europe, including

Germany, including France, to accept, that Brussels would have

such an active and muscular role in tough fiscal policies of their

national economies. Within the context of violent, it is the issue

of the corporate tax rate ultimately that would be the

concern for this economy and whether or not the 12.5 % rate of

tax could survive any form of fiscal federalism. Thank you very

much indeed. And that's where we leave it tonight. We'll do it again

at the same times next week. I have a dream. We shall fight them

on the beaches. Ask not what your country will do for you...

Inspiring, heroic, eloquent? I'm struggling. I couldn't see Margaret

Ritchie in the audience. She sacked her for but he retired on TV.