Browse content similar to 12/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to a new series of hearts and minds. Happy new year. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:25 | |
But coming up - the Secretary of State wants to kick-start the | 0:00:25 | 0:00:29 | |
process of dealing with the past but with no consensus its dormant, | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
what is the point? The Iron Lady and the mini-skirted | 0:00:33 | 0:00:38 | |
Fidel Castro - is fact or fiction the way to portray a historical | 0:00:38 | 0:00:47 | |
figures? It is 2012 and we are no longer -- | 0:00:47 | 0:00:54 | |
closer to finding an agreement to move forward to. An attempt to | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
kick-start an initiative and Owen Paterson is here. I wonder if your | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
heart is really in these talks because we know you're not going to | 0:01:01 | 0:01:07 | |
be heaving anything new, are you? We have been talking since we came | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
to power. I was talking with the shadow Secretary of State before I | 0:01:13 | 0:01:18 | |
took office. You are right, there is little consensus. There are | 0:01:18 | 0:01:23 | |
those who think we should draw line and bring it to a halt and those | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
who think we should have a major commission with an international | 0:01:27 | 0:01:33 | |
figure chaining it. Then there are those in the middle. What I have | 0:01:33 | 0:01:38 | |
found over the recent months, and I would stress that the Minister and | 0:01:38 | 0:01:42 | |
myself have been talking to all the parties and we have spoken to | 0:01:42 | 0:01:47 | |
numerous interests. A listening exercise. We have not been | 0:01:47 | 0:01:51 | |
trumpeting this and bashing out press releases. We have been | 0:01:51 | 0:01:56 | |
working away. What has happened recently which has attracted media | 0:01:56 | 0:02:01 | |
attention is that following that the Assembly motion, I went to see | 0:02:01 | 0:02:05 | |
the Speaker and took his advice and following that, I have written to | 0:02:05 | 0:02:09 | |
the leaders of the main parties asking them to nominate someone who | 0:02:09 | 0:02:17 | |
I can talk to. Sinn Fein said they have had no contact from you - lost | 0:02:17 | 0:02:23 | |
in the post? I went to the post office and they were extremely busy. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:30 | |
They have had an invitation. If you look at the government's position, | 0:02:31 | 0:02:39 | |
we inherited inquiries. The Prime Minister got tremendous | 0:02:39 | 0:02:48 | |
international recognition for her handling of the Savoy report. -- | 0:02:48 | 0:02:55 | |
Saville. If you look at what we have done rather than we have said, | 0:02:55 | 0:03:03 | |
we have published these inquiries and then we had Nelson. We | 0:03:03 | 0:03:07 | |
inherited an impasse. The last government offered an inquiry and | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
the Government at the time tried hard to get acceptance, and they | 0:03:11 | 0:03:17 | |
failed. They did not agree with the terms? They did not. In fairness to | 0:03:17 | 0:03:23 | |
myself, I was the first Secretary of State to make sense 2006 and I | 0:03:23 | 0:03:28 | |
said we would try to arrive at the truth. I have not promised the | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
mechanism. We had a written statement in Parliament which we | 0:03:31 | 0:03:36 | |
repeated again after two months of consultation. What we have done has | 0:03:36 | 0:03:40 | |
come up with a mechanism that we think will arrive at the truth. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:46 | |
What is unprecedented about this is for the Prime Minister to invite | 0:03:47 | 0:03:52 | |
the family to meet him in person and to ask for an apology. Is this | 0:03:52 | 0:03:59 | |
completely not enough for them? The family left in an absolute rage. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
For all the inquiry, and this is the only one that has had a huge | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
police inquiry, perhaps the largest police inquiry in British history. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:15 | |
More than 1 million pages of documents. Over 900 personal | 0:04:15 | 0:04:21 | |
witness statements. 16,000 exhibits. There is an enormous archive in | 0:04:21 | 0:04:28 | |
which lies the truth. We're very confident that we have persuaded a | 0:04:28 | 0:04:35 | |
lawyer of absolute impeccable international reputation who sold | 0:04:35 | 0:04:40 | |
off three assassination attempts when he got people off of death row. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:46 | |
Is this more about the potential inquiry? All we know it is about | 0:04:46 | 0:04:50 | |
your offer of a review of those millions of pages has left the | 0:04:50 | 0:04:56 | |
family incandescent as they want to pursue legal action, plus they feel | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
that they were going to be offered more than that and they felt | 0:05:00 | 0:05:08 | |
completely let down when they went to Downing Street. The SDLP has | 0:05:08 | 0:05:16 | |
said that the fuss over the case shows that the Government is not | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
ready to permit proper investigation of things that has | 0:05:18 | 0:05:24 | |
done wrong? I feel that is a wrong accusations. We made available a | 0:05:24 | 0:05:29 | |
large archive, larger than was available to saddle. There are | 0:05:29 | 0:05:38 | |
fewer witnesses arrive now it to this -- these terrible events. -- | 0:05:38 | 0:05:44 | |
Saville. We want to get to the truth and we believe the mechanism | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
lies in this. Possibly the largest police investigation in British | 0:05:48 | 0:05:53 | |
history and we have faced up to the fact that we'd have -- inherited | 0:05:53 | 0:05:59 | |
and then pass. This terrible incident went back nine years. In | 0:05:59 | 0:06:06 | |
fairness to the government, we have made a decision and take it forward. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:10 | |
Did you think it would be so terribly badly taken by the family? | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
Did you think they would be so betrayed? I am genuinely | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
disappointed because I did see this as good. Soon after we came to | 0:06:20 | 0:06:26 | |
power, I made it clear to harp that we wanted to arrive at the truth. I | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
did not have a great issue over whether it was an inquiry or what | 0:06:30 | 0:06:39 | |
the issue was. -- the mechanism was. It is well known about my | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
scepticism over the value and the ability of inquiries to get through | 0:06:42 | 0:06:48 | |
this. We published the inquiry after a huge and very | 0:06:48 | 0:06:53 | |
professional... You didn't decide who smuggled the gun? That is | 0:06:53 | 0:06:59 | |
relevant. I am anxious to broaden the discussion because you're going | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
to call these parties in and say to them, are right, what do you think | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
we should do? Each party will say their own bit and none of them will | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
agree and you'll have to do something. What will you do? As you | 0:07:11 | 0:07:17 | |
know, I have been travelling around Northern Ireland and have been very | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
public in my praise of some of their archives that have been built | 0:07:20 | 0:07:30 | |
up. I have also, and the Prime Minister is well, have been very | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
fulsome in praise of the historical inquiry team. You ran out of money | 0:07:35 | 0:07:41 | |
until it was saved by the Justice Minister. Two points - satisfaction | 0:07:41 | 0:07:49 | |
levels of over 90%. That is remarkable. There is also the issue | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
of money, and this is where the past is a matter not entirely of | 0:07:52 | 0:07:57 | |
the hands of the UK government. This is devolved and the Police | 0:07:57 | 0:08:02 | |
Ombudsman is also devolved. They are all in devolved ministers' | 0:08:02 | 0:08:09 | |
hands. This is a joint effort. consensus that did arrive, you | 0:08:09 | 0:08:15 | |
would clearly have to fund that. This was part of the settlement. I | 0:08:15 | 0:08:20 | |
discussed this with Shaun Woodward my predecessor. I you saying you | 0:08:20 | 0:08:25 | |
will not pay for it? It was part of the demolition settlement. Bradley | 0:08:25 | 0:08:33 | |
came up with an issue that may have cost �300,000. It seems to have | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
gone into the bed now and no one has told you of it. Are you saying | 0:08:36 | 0:08:42 | |
that he would not give any more money to any process? Their | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
processes which are working well now which are wholly within the | 0:08:46 | 0:08:52 | |
competence of devolved ministers here. You have been accused this | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
week of washing your hands of all this - this sounds like washing | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
your hands. Even where there are a consensus, you would go up give | 0:09:00 | 0:09:06 | |
money to fund it? There are certain arrangements which are now entirely | 0:09:06 | 0:09:12 | |
in local hands and a funded locally. They should come out of the | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
significant settlement which is in the hands of the Executive here. I | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
started my comments by pointing out there were other areas of activity | 0:09:19 | 0:09:28 | |
such as the publication of reports. These are entirely in the hands of | 0:09:28 | 0:09:34 | |
the UK government and in which we pay our part. -- play our part. We | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
can work with local politicians but ultimately it is a team effort. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:45 | |
have been listening, as you say. What conclusions have deformed? | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
began with my comments, sadly there is no consensus. Someone to just | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
the raw line and stop the whole thing. There's a whole spectrum of | 0:09:53 | 0:09:57 | |
opinion going straight through to those who want a full commission | 0:09:57 | 0:10:02 | |
staffed by some at international person of some repute. -- draw a | 0:10:03 | 0:10:10 | |
line. I have met with parties over the last eight months and I hope we | 0:10:10 | 0:10:15 | |
will find a way forward on which everyone can agree. This is | 0:10:15 | 0:10:19 | |
entirely not in my hands. I can contribute and release some of the | 0:10:19 | 0:10:24 | |
information which is in my hands, but much of this is also in local | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
hands. You have done all this listening but you have not been | 0:10:27 | 0:10:31 | |
able to for many conclusion as a result. That is depressing, is it | 0:10:31 | 0:10:36 | |
not? It would be very unhelpful if the Secretary of State imposed | 0:10:36 | 0:10:39 | |
something. You will have the parties and for talks, they will | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
stick for their own guns, you pretty much know what they want | 0:10:43 | 0:10:47 | |
individually, and none of it can be agreed as things stand at the | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
moment. Will this line of talks simply end with no further | 0:10:51 | 0:10:55 | |
conclusion? You're asking me to prejudge what comes out of these | 0:10:55 | 0:11:01 | |
discussions. I am asking what you think is most likely to happen. | 0:11:01 | 0:11:06 | |
have an idea in my head and that is built around the writing of | 0:11:06 | 0:11:14 | |
histories and that was a key part of course of previous processes. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:19 | |
There are many versions of history in Northern Ireland. If of course | 0:11:19 | 0:11:26 | |
there are. Who is will dominate? That is for historians to decide. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:36 | |
You can then have after the discussion. In parallel to that, | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
you have the institutions I have mentioned... You're saying to me | 0:11:40 | 0:11:44 | |
that what we're going to do for you is build an archive in which she | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
will be able to read the documents that were around at the time of | 0:11:47 | 0:11:52 | |
your loved one. I would not be very happy with that. I am not sure | 0:11:52 | 0:11:58 | |
you're right there when you look at the satisfaction figures. What they | 0:11:58 | 0:12:05 | |
it E G T shows is that for many of the families, although the real | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
details of those who might have committed some of these terrible | 0:12:08 | 0:12:13 | |
crimes are not revealed, getting to some of the facts around the deaths | 0:12:13 | 0:12:21 | |
for the injuries of a very dear relations does bring satisfaction. | 0:12:21 | 0:12:27 | |
-- HET. They have shown that they often cannot get to the truth. At | 0:12:27 | 0:12:32 | |
the time, DNA technology not exist or evidence had to be cleared away | 0:12:32 | 0:12:38 | |
and a hurry because of the dangerous circumstances. Some of | 0:12:38 | 0:12:43 | |
those instances, we will never know. We have to face that and that is a | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
tragedy, but what I think is fascinating about their work, is | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
that by getting some way to the truth they do bring satisfaction | 0:12:51 | 0:13:01 | |
0:13:01 | 0:13:01 | ||
and help to those families. Thank Owen Paterson has asked the | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
Stormont party leaders, as Secretary of State for Northern | 0:13:04 | 0:13:08 | |
Ireland, to come and talk to him about dealing with the past. The | 0:13:08 | 0:13:11 | |
politicians will want to show willing. And Mr. Paterson is doing | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
what Naomi Long scolded him to do, but he inspires scant confidence. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
Pleasant chap, but he flits about. Messy. There's the Royal pardon for | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
Marian Price that's gone missing, so she's been in Maghaberry male | 0:13:22 | 0:13:28 | |
prison since last May, purely on Mr. Paterson's say-so. There's his | 0:13:28 | 0:13:30 | |
little crush on the Boston College collection of tales from old | 0:13:30 | 0:13:36 | |
paramilitaries. Kernel for a bigger project on the past, says Mr P. The | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
PSNI got there first, and kicked that notion around a bit. Less than | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
three months ago, Owen Paterson announced what sounded like his own | 0:13:44 | 0:13:46 | |
ideal solution, rubbishing others in passing - particularly | 0:13:46 | 0:13:53 | |
independent inquiries. He told a fringe meeting at the Tory | 0:13:53 | 0:13:55 | |
conference that the Historical Enquiries Team, the mix of | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
detectives from Britain with local back-up who comb over unsolved old | 0:13:58 | 0:14:04 | |
cases and then meet relatives of the dead, was "the right route". No | 0:14:04 | 0:14:09 | |
need for a "shiny new organisation". HET reports had revealed the | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
tragedy, said Paterson, that some deaths would never be solved - and | 0:14:12 | 0:14:18 | |
not by a panel "probably chaired by a blond Finn." This was clearly a | 0:14:18 | 0:14:20 | |
swipe at Sinn Fein's oft-repeated call for an independent, | 0:14:20 | 0:14:25 | |
international truth commission. Sinn Fein's current "victims' | 0:14:25 | 0:14:31 | |
spokesman" Mitchel McLaughlin calls it a "truth recovery process." A | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
"blond Finn" in the chair isn't specified in the McLaughlin game- | 0:14:34 | 0:14:38 | |
plan. Presumably this was a hiss of right-wing Tory loathing for | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
outsiders adjudicating on UK affairs - fed in the days when | 0:14:41 | 0:14:49 | |
every decomissioning or oversight body seemed to have a Scandinavian. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:54 | |
But a month after the blond Finn speech, there was more Paterson. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
This time it was "historians rather than lawyers", a thought he has had | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
for a while. A panel of historians, presumably raven-haired, should get | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
access to documents, and produce an agreed history of the Troubles. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:12 | |
Only Hillsborough Man could imagine such unity. Arise Lord Professor | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
Bew, leave the lecture-hall Dr Feeney - gather keen young scholars | 0:15:14 | 0:15:20 | |
around you. And the years creep by Truth commissions have a mixed | 0:15:20 | 0:15:25 | |
record. Republicans, confident that no British government will open all | 0:15:25 | 0:15:31 | |
the files on their own armed forces, are making a safe demand. They get | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
credit with their own people, perhaps, and the less-informed | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
elsewhere, for apparent willingness to come clean. But few believe that | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
killers, or those who gave orders, paramilitary or official, will ever | 0:15:42 | 0:15:48 | |
tell the whole truth. The coordination that the tidy-minded | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
Naomi wants is anyhow unlikely, but what politicians and historians can | 0:15:51 | 0:15:59 | |
agree is irrelevant. Those who lost people also disagree. The bereaved | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
and injured must get the financial and other help they need as they | 0:16:02 | 0:16:06 | |
age. Beyond that, decency demands acknowledgement of those left, and | 0:16:06 | 0:16:08 | |
their beloved dead - that officialdom, and this society, | 0:16:09 | 0:16:16 | |
should list all those killed in the Troubles. That their deaths are not | 0:16:16 | 0:16:20 | |
forgotten. The thoughts of Fionnuala O'Connor. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
And as we continue to grapple with ways of finding and facing the | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
truth about what happened in our conflict, two films this week offer | 0:16:26 | 0:16:30 | |
radically different ways of relating history. In one, Hollywood | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
has Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher looking back over | 0:16:32 | 0:16:37 | |
her political life from her semi- bewidered old age. The other is a | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
pure documentary treatment of the career of one of Ireland's | 0:16:40 | 0:16:44 | |
strongest political personalities, Bernadette McAliskey, nee Devlin. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:46 | |
Before we discuss the different approaches, here are a couple of | 0:16:47 | 0:16:56 | |
Are you saying you want to be Prime Minister? This is my duty and my | 0:16:56 | 0:17:04 | |
ambition. The rest of us, me, the children, we can go to hell. Where | 0:17:04 | 0:17:09 | |
there is discord, may we bring harmony. Shoulders back, stomachs | 0:17:09 | 0:17:19 | |
0:17:19 | 0:17:20 | ||
in. The most hated government... could not possibly buckle. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:26 | |
medicine is harsh, but the patient requires it. We must be careful not | 0:17:26 | 0:17:33 | |
to trust one's colleagues' loyalty. Her cowardice. Miss Bernadette | 0:17:33 | 0:17:39 | |
Devlin, newly elected MP from Mid Ulster, arrived at Seathwaite -- | 0:17:39 | 0:17:44 | |
Heathrow airport. This 20-year-old girl, looking like a schoolgirl, | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
long brown hair falling to her shoulders, giving the impression of | 0:17:49 | 0:17:58 | |
a demure little Alice In Wonderland. Do you intend to apologise? | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
Joining me now are Lisa Fitzpatrick from the University of Ulster, and | 0:18:01 | 0:18:06 | |
the Belfast Telegraph's political editor Liam Clarke. There you | 0:18:06 | 0:18:11 | |
covered the careers of both these women. Which approach rang more | 0:18:11 | 0:18:17 | |
true for you? Well, I must admit I liked the Thatcher film better. A | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
lot was left out, but it wasn't a straight biography. It referred | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
back to various points in her life and how she remembered them. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:32 | |
Anybody who's had to deal with somebody like her will find this | 0:18:32 | 0:18:37 | |
quite a compelling portrayal in how somebody can be broken down. I | 0:18:37 | 0:18:42 | |
looked at the film like that. The Bernardette film, the archive | 0:18:42 | 0:18:50 | |
footage was fantastic, I loved sporting people -- spotting people. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:56 | |
But I did feel it was a very simple linear treatment and it was | 0:18:56 | 0:19:02 | |
completely uncritical. There was no reflection, no interrogation of the | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
subject, there wasn't an awkward question. For that reason, it | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
probably fell down a little bit as a documentary, but I did enjoy | 0:19:10 | 0:19:15 | |
watching the old footage. Neither of the two approaches was critical. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:21 | |
Mrs Thatcher, we saw the riots, the poll tax riots, the miners' riots, | 0:19:21 | 0:19:29 | |
and the conflict in the other film. But neither was challenged. No. The | 0:19:29 | 0:19:33 | |
decision of the writer and director to tell Thatcher's story from her | 0:19:33 | 0:19:40 | |
own viewpoint made the two films oddly similar, even though it they | 0:19:40 | 0:19:46 | |
were using different media, biopic and documentary. But I did feel | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
about the Thatcher film that we never really got to grips with the | 0:19:50 | 0:19:56 | |
politics of the time and that a lot of the really controversial issues | 0:19:56 | 0:20:03 | |
and decisions she made were passed over. And that we had her reacting | 0:20:03 | 0:20:09 | |
emotionally to them. For example, the sinking of the Belgrano. But | 0:20:09 | 0:20:17 | |
there was no digging into the rail politics behind it. All the | 0:20:17 | 0:20:22 | |
implications of that. I suppose both are trying in their way to | 0:20:22 | 0:20:26 | |
portray personalities. Do you think they are equally valid ways of | 0:20:26 | 0:20:32 | |
doing it? What historical truth do you come away with from each film? | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
I'm not sure how much historical truth we need from either of them. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:41 | |
But what is interesting is to get that kind of information and to see | 0:20:41 | 0:20:46 | |
something of the careers of two very controversial women who both | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
entered politics at a time when they're -- there were very, very | 0:20:50 | 0:20:54 | |
few women in the political sphere and who both overcame tremendous | 0:20:54 | 0:21:00 | |
obstacles to take part in the way they did. Thatcher to a much | 0:21:00 | 0:21:04 | |
greater extent than Devlin, whose political career was relatively | 0:21:04 | 0:21:11 | |
short. It is interesting to see that kind of coverage of two female | 0:21:11 | 0:21:17 | |
politicians. It is not that often that we get that kind of programme. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:22 | |
They may not have achieved absolute truth, but was each her fair | 0:21:22 | 0:21:26 | |
representation of its protagonist? There was not a complete portrayal | 0:21:26 | 0:21:30 | |
of Thatcher's career. You did see the sinking of the Belgrano and | 0:21:30 | 0:21:35 | |
that a lot of people died and that it was a controversial decision. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
The things left out work Pinochet, the Chilean dictator, she backed | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
him to the end and really liked him. Also Mark Thatcher's outings with | 0:21:45 | 0:21:52 | |
the mercenaries. He gave -- it gave the impression he was in Scotland | 0:21:52 | 0:21:58 | |
on holidays. South Africa. You did not know he could not come back. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:02 | |
That was something that was going to pray on somebody's mind at her | 0:22:02 | 0:22:07 | |
stage. There were things left out in Bernadette, too. You can | 0:22:07 | 0:22:17 | |
0:22:17 | 0:22:20 | ||
criticise it more because it was a linear documentary. You would | 0:22:20 | 0:22:26 | |
expect her to be asked to stand over topics. It also showed her | 0:22:26 | 0:22:30 | |
showing a lot of kindness to his son's afterwards, there was | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
something not explored. There were a few other items like that. She | 0:22:33 | 0:22:37 | |
was not asked any questions, she was not booked through her paces at | 0:22:37 | 0:22:46 | |
all. -- put through. Do you think the writer Zettel with a view to | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
expose some kind of truth or are they only interested in making a | 0:22:50 | 0:22:56 | |
good story? Of course, a good story is at the heart of the film. As a | 0:22:56 | 0:23:01 | |
portrayal of someone suffering from dementia who is dealing with this | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
disappointment at the end of their life or the sense of sadness, I | 0:23:04 | 0:23:09 | |
thought it was interesting from that perspective. Outside of the | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
politics, that sort of intimate portrait, that made an interesting | 0:23:13 | 0:23:20 | |
story. The Meryl Streep film have to assume no knowledge whatsoever. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
Would we assume the Devlin film would be made for people who had a | 0:23:23 | 0:23:28 | |
lot of background knowledge? suppose it would, but you did get a | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
fair bit of background put in. There were some things airbrushed | 0:23:31 | 0:23:37 | |
out. The Thatcher film, people probably would have been familiar | 0:23:37 | 0:23:40 | |
with the Falklands War and knew what happened, strikes in Britain, | 0:23:40 | 0:23:47 | |
Thatcher being... You had those points of reference. But will it | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
last in 10 years, will people remember it so much? We have had | 0:23:51 | 0:23:57 | |
other films about prime ministers during their lifetimes, but this | 0:23:57 | 0:24:01 | |
one showed her weakness more than the films made about Churchill | 0:24:01 | 0:24:07 | |
during his time, which were pure celebration. Difficult, I suppose, | 0:24:07 | 0:24:12 | |
to make films about people who are still alive. It must, the way you | 0:24:12 | 0:24:18 | |
approach it? Of course. The greater the historical distance, the more | 0:24:18 | 0:24:22 | |
perspective the film-maker can bring to it. I did think there was | 0:24:22 | 0:24:27 | |
a certain amount of gender bias, we were looking at her as a mother and | 0:24:27 | 0:24:31 | |
a wife as well as a politician in a way that the coverage of people | 0:24:31 | 0:24:37 | |
like Churchill has never really concerned itself with. In both | 0:24:37 | 0:24:42 | |
films, there was talk of sacrifice is made. Bernadette Devlin was a | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
victim of them -- an assassination attempt and she talked about the | 0:24:45 | 0:24:50 | |
effect on her family. That was something the two protagonists had | 0:24:50 | 0:24:56 | |
in common. Yes, that was interesting, and Devlin... In fact | 0:24:56 | 0:25:00 | |
-- the Thatcher film there is no real reflection on that issue. I | 0:25:00 | 0:25:04 | |
was interested in what Devlin had to say about that and the impact on | 0:25:04 | 0:25:12 | |
her daughters. She thought Grishin had been victimised. That was | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
something I felt was a little bit airbrushed and should have been | 0:25:16 | 0:25:22 | |
examined more. It was the Germans who wanted her and the British | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
authorities basically stopped it. Questioning about a bomb attack at | 0:25:26 | 0:25:32 | |
a barracks. That's right, attacks on British forces in Germany. Jack | 0:25:32 | 0:25:37 | |
Straw halted the extradition on one occasion and then the Belfast | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
courts did it another time. A little narrative given that people | 0:25:40 | 0:25:50 | |
0:25:50 | 0:25:51 | ||
were out to get her. It was uncritical. Two women who wins by a | 0:25:51 | 0:26:00 | |
strong feelings of love are hate. - - inspire. Yes. Good subject for | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
documentaries or biopics. Yes, certainly. Both very influential | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
women. Thatcher, I was in primary school when Thatcher was elected | 0:26:08 | 0:26:12 | |
and I remember taking an interest in a childish way in this election | 0:26:12 | 0:26:16 | |
in Britain and in the possibility of there being a woman prime | 0:26:16 | 0:26:22 | |
minister. The fact that it now seems like something that is | 0:26:22 | 0:26:27 | |
entirely possible and even quite normal is Thatcher's legacy in a | 0:26:27 | 0:26:34 | |
positive sense. So I think they are hugely influential women. Would it | 0:26:34 | 0:26:40 | |
be fair to say that Thatcher created her own scenario? She was | 0:26:40 | 0:26:45 | |
something completely new whereas Bernadette Devlin was just a | 0:26:45 | 0:26:52 | |
product of her time? Well, Bernadette Devlin, meeting her, at | 0:26:52 | 0:26:56 | |
earlier stages, she was an incredibly forceful person. You | 0:26:56 | 0:27:01 | |
kind of expected her to go on longer in politics than she did, | 0:27:01 | 0:27:09 | |
and the assassination attempt sat her energy and one.. Thatcher, she | 0:27:09 | 0:27:16 | |
did break the mould. I don't know if you could call her... We never | 0:27:16 | 0:27:22 | |
had a woman prime minister before. But she did do it by becoming a man | 0:27:22 | 0:27:32 | |
0:27:32 | 0:27:32 | ||
in a man's world, almost. She did it in a tough way and also by a | 0:27:32 | 0:27:38 | |
deepening her voice. Spitting Image, she was portrayed speaking like | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
Churchill, and Meryl Streep managed that very well. She was very shrill | 0:27:41 | 0:27:51 | |
at the start. We must leave it there. The Bernardette documentary | 0:27:51 | 0:27:55 | |
is showing at the Q FT in Belfast at the end of this month. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:58 | |
And that's where we must leave it this time round. We'll do it again | 0:27:58 | 0:28:08 | |
next week at the usual times. I Where did you get your licence | 0:28:08 | 0:28:13 | |
from? Some carry on this week. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness | 0:28:13 | 0:28:18 | |
are sick with jealousy. Scotland could be ended pendant in two years | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
and they didn't even have to fire a shot in anger. You can love or hate | 0:28:22 | 0:28:27 | |
Alex Salmond, but at least he's not worried about... They are taking | 0:28:27 | 0:28:35 | |
away all of a fund. Hundreds are losing their jobs so we can't hate | 0:28:35 | 0:28:40 |