12/01/2012 Hearts and Minds


12/01/2012

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Hello and welcome to a new series of hearts and minds. Happy new year.

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But coming up - the Secretary of State wants to kick-start the

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process of dealing with the past but with no consensus its dormant,

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what is the point? The Iron Lady and the mini-skirted

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Fidel Castro - is fact or fiction the way to portray a historical

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figures? It is 2012 and we are no longer --

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closer to finding an agreement to move forward to. An attempt to

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kick-start an initiative and Owen Paterson is here. I wonder if your

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heart is really in these talks because we know you're not going to

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be heaving anything new, are you? We have been talking since we came

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to power. I was talking with the shadow Secretary of State before I

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took office. You are right, there is little consensus. There are

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those who think we should draw line and bring it to a halt and those

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who think we should have a major commission with an international

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figure chaining it. Then there are those in the middle. What I have

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found over the recent months, and I would stress that the Minister and

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myself have been talking to all the parties and we have spoken to

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numerous interests. A listening exercise. We have not been

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trumpeting this and bashing out press releases. We have been

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working away. What has happened recently which has attracted media

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attention is that following that the Assembly motion, I went to see

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the Speaker and took his advice and following that, I have written to

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the leaders of the main parties asking them to nominate someone who

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I can talk to. Sinn Fein said they have had no contact from you - lost

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in the post? I went to the post office and they were extremely busy.

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They have had an invitation. If you look at the government's position,

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we inherited inquiries. The Prime Minister got tremendous

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international recognition for her handling of the Savoy report. --

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Saville. If you look at what we have done rather than we have said,

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we have published these inquiries and then we had Nelson. We

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inherited an impasse. The last government offered an inquiry and

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the Government at the time tried hard to get acceptance, and they

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failed. They did not agree with the terms? They did not. In fairness to

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myself, I was the first Secretary of State to make sense 2006 and I

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said we would try to arrive at the truth. I have not promised the

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mechanism. We had a written statement in Parliament which we

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repeated again after two months of consultation. What we have done has

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come up with a mechanism that we think will arrive at the truth.

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What is unprecedented about this is for the Prime Minister to invite

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the family to meet him in person and to ask for an apology. Is this

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completely not enough for them? The family left in an absolute rage.

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For all the inquiry, and this is the only one that has had a huge

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police inquiry, perhaps the largest police inquiry in British history.

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More than 1 million pages of documents. Over 900 personal

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witness statements. 16,000 exhibits. There is an enormous archive in

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which lies the truth. We're very confident that we have persuaded a

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lawyer of absolute impeccable international reputation who sold

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off three assassination attempts when he got people off of death row.

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Is this more about the potential inquiry? All we know it is about

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your offer of a review of those millions of pages has left the

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family incandescent as they want to pursue legal action, plus they feel

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that they were going to be offered more than that and they felt

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completely let down when they went to Downing Street. The SDLP has

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said that the fuss over the case shows that the Government is not

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ready to permit proper investigation of things that has

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done wrong? I feel that is a wrong accusations. We made available a

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large archive, larger than was available to saddle. There are

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fewer witnesses arrive now it to this -- these terrible events. --

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Saville. We want to get to the truth and we believe the mechanism

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lies in this. Possibly the largest police investigation in British

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history and we have faced up to the fact that we'd have -- inherited

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and then pass. This terrible incident went back nine years. In

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fairness to the government, we have made a decision and take it forward.

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Did you think it would be so terribly badly taken by the family?

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Did you think they would be so betrayed? I am genuinely

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disappointed because I did see this as good. Soon after we came to

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power, I made it clear to harp that we wanted to arrive at the truth. I

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did not have a great issue over whether it was an inquiry or what

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the issue was. -- the mechanism was. It is well known about my

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scepticism over the value and the ability of inquiries to get through

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this. We published the inquiry after a huge and very

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professional... You didn't decide who smuggled the gun? That is

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relevant. I am anxious to broaden the discussion because you're going

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to call these parties in and say to them, are right, what do you think

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we should do? Each party will say their own bit and none of them will

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agree and you'll have to do something. What will you do? As you

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know, I have been travelling around Northern Ireland and have been very

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public in my praise of some of their archives that have been built

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up. I have also, and the Prime Minister is well, have been very

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fulsome in praise of the historical inquiry team. You ran out of money

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until it was saved by the Justice Minister. Two points - satisfaction

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levels of over 90%. That is remarkable. There is also the issue

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of money, and this is where the past is a matter not entirely of

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the hands of the UK government. This is devolved and the Police

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Ombudsman is also devolved. They are all in devolved ministers'

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hands. This is a joint effort. consensus that did arrive, you

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would clearly have to fund that. This was part of the settlement. I

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discussed this with Shaun Woodward my predecessor. I you saying you

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will not pay for it? It was part of the demolition settlement. Bradley

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came up with an issue that may have cost �300,000. It seems to have

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gone into the bed now and no one has told you of it. Are you saying

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that he would not give any more money to any process? Their

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processes which are working well now which are wholly within the

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competence of devolved ministers here. You have been accused this

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week of washing your hands of all this - this sounds like washing

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your hands. Even where there are a consensus, you would go up give

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money to fund it? There are certain arrangements which are now entirely

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in local hands and a funded locally. They should come out of the

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significant settlement which is in the hands of the Executive here. I

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started my comments by pointing out there were other areas of activity

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such as the publication of reports. These are entirely in the hands of

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the UK government and in which we pay our part. -- play our part. We

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can work with local politicians but ultimately it is a team effort.

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have been listening, as you say. What conclusions have deformed?

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began with my comments, sadly there is no consensus. Someone to just

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the raw line and stop the whole thing. There's a whole spectrum of

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opinion going straight through to those who want a full commission

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staffed by some at international person of some repute. -- draw a

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line. I have met with parties over the last eight months and I hope we

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will find a way forward on which everyone can agree. This is

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entirely not in my hands. I can contribute and release some of the

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information which is in my hands, but much of this is also in local

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hands. You have done all this listening but you have not been

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able to for many conclusion as a result. That is depressing, is it

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not? It would be very unhelpful if the Secretary of State imposed

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something. You will have the parties and for talks, they will

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stick for their own guns, you pretty much know what they want

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individually, and none of it can be agreed as things stand at the

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moment. Will this line of talks simply end with no further

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conclusion? You're asking me to prejudge what comes out of these

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discussions. I am asking what you think is most likely to happen.

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have an idea in my head and that is built around the writing of

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histories and that was a key part of course of previous processes.

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There are many versions of history in Northern Ireland. If of course

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there are. Who is will dominate? That is for historians to decide.

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You can then have after the discussion. In parallel to that,

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you have the institutions I have mentioned... You're saying to me

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that what we're going to do for you is build an archive in which she

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will be able to read the documents that were around at the time of

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your loved one. I would not be very happy with that. I am not sure

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you're right there when you look at the satisfaction figures. What they

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it E G T shows is that for many of the families, although the real

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details of those who might have committed some of these terrible

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crimes are not revealed, getting to some of the facts around the deaths

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for the injuries of a very dear relations does bring satisfaction.

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-- HET. They have shown that they often cannot get to the truth. At

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the time, DNA technology not exist or evidence had to be cleared away

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and a hurry because of the dangerous circumstances. Some of

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those instances, we will never know. We have to face that and that is a

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tragedy, but what I think is fascinating about their work, is

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that by getting some way to the truth they do bring satisfaction

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and help to those families. Thank Owen Paterson has asked the

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Stormont party leaders, as Secretary of State for Northern

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Ireland, to come and talk to him about dealing with the past. The

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politicians will want to show willing. And Mr. Paterson is doing

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what Naomi Long scolded him to do, but he inspires scant confidence.

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Pleasant chap, but he flits about. Messy. There's the Royal pardon for

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Marian Price that's gone missing, so she's been in Maghaberry male

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prison since last May, purely on Mr. Paterson's say-so. There's his

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little crush on the Boston College collection of tales from old

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paramilitaries. Kernel for a bigger project on the past, says Mr P. The

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PSNI got there first, and kicked that notion around a bit. Less than

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three months ago, Owen Paterson announced what sounded like his own

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ideal solution, rubbishing others in passing - particularly

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independent inquiries. He told a fringe meeting at the Tory

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conference that the Historical Enquiries Team, the mix of

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detectives from Britain with local back-up who comb over unsolved old

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cases and then meet relatives of the dead, was "the right route". No

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need for a "shiny new organisation". HET reports had revealed the

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tragedy, said Paterson, that some deaths would never be solved - and

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not by a panel "probably chaired by a blond Finn." This was clearly a

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swipe at Sinn Fein's oft-repeated call for an independent,

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international truth commission. Sinn Fein's current "victims'

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spokesman" Mitchel McLaughlin calls it a "truth recovery process." A

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"blond Finn" in the chair isn't specified in the McLaughlin game-

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plan. Presumably this was a hiss of right-wing Tory loathing for

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outsiders adjudicating on UK affairs - fed in the days when

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every decomissioning or oversight body seemed to have a Scandinavian.

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But a month after the blond Finn speech, there was more Paterson.

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This time it was "historians rather than lawyers", a thought he has had

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for a while. A panel of historians, presumably raven-haired, should get

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access to documents, and produce an agreed history of the Troubles.

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Only Hillsborough Man could imagine such unity. Arise Lord Professor

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Bew, leave the lecture-hall Dr Feeney - gather keen young scholars

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around you. And the years creep by Truth commissions have a mixed

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record. Republicans, confident that no British government will open all

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the files on their own armed forces, are making a safe demand. They get

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credit with their own people, perhaps, and the less-informed

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elsewhere, for apparent willingness to come clean. But few believe that

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killers, or those who gave orders, paramilitary or official, will ever

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tell the whole truth. The coordination that the tidy-minded

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Naomi wants is anyhow unlikely, but what politicians and historians can

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agree is irrelevant. Those who lost people also disagree. The bereaved

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and injured must get the financial and other help they need as they

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age. Beyond that, decency demands acknowledgement of those left, and

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their beloved dead - that officialdom, and this society,

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should list all those killed in the Troubles. That their deaths are not

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forgotten. The thoughts of Fionnuala O'Connor.

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And as we continue to grapple with ways of finding and facing the

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truth about what happened in our conflict, two films this week offer

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radically different ways of relating history. In one, Hollywood

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has Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher looking back over

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her political life from her semi- bewidered old age. The other is a

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pure documentary treatment of the career of one of Ireland's

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strongest political personalities, Bernadette McAliskey, nee Devlin.

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Before we discuss the different approaches, here are a couple of

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Are you saying you want to be Prime Minister? This is my duty and my

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ambition. The rest of us, me, the children, we can go to hell. Where

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there is discord, may we bring harmony. Shoulders back, stomachs

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in. The most hated government... could not possibly buckle.

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medicine is harsh, but the patient requires it. We must be careful not

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to trust one's colleagues' loyalty. Her cowardice. Miss Bernadette

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Devlin, newly elected MP from Mid Ulster, arrived at Seathwaite --

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Heathrow airport. This 20-year-old girl, looking like a schoolgirl,

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long brown hair falling to her shoulders, giving the impression of

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a demure little Alice In Wonderland. Do you intend to apologise?

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Joining me now are Lisa Fitzpatrick from the University of Ulster, and

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the Belfast Telegraph's political editor Liam Clarke. There you

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covered the careers of both these women. Which approach rang more

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true for you? Well, I must admit I liked the Thatcher film better. A

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lot was left out, but it wasn't a straight biography. It referred

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back to various points in her life and how she remembered them.

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Anybody who's had to deal with somebody like her will find this

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quite a compelling portrayal in how somebody can be broken down. I

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looked at the film like that. The Bernardette film, the archive

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footage was fantastic, I loved sporting people -- spotting people.

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But I did feel it was a very simple linear treatment and it was

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completely uncritical. There was no reflection, no interrogation of the

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subject, there wasn't an awkward question. For that reason, it

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probably fell down a little bit as a documentary, but I did enjoy

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watching the old footage. Neither of the two approaches was critical.

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Mrs Thatcher, we saw the riots, the poll tax riots, the miners' riots,

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and the conflict in the other film. But neither was challenged. No. The

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decision of the writer and director to tell Thatcher's story from her

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own viewpoint made the two films oddly similar, even though it they

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were using different media, biopic and documentary. But I did feel

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about the Thatcher film that we never really got to grips with the

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politics of the time and that a lot of the really controversial issues

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and decisions she made were passed over. And that we had her reacting

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emotionally to them. For example, the sinking of the Belgrano. But

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there was no digging into the rail politics behind it. All the

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implications of that. I suppose both are trying in their way to

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portray personalities. Do you think they are equally valid ways of

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doing it? What historical truth do you come away with from each film?

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I'm not sure how much historical truth we need from either of them.

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But what is interesting is to get that kind of information and to see

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something of the careers of two very controversial women who both

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entered politics at a time when they're -- there were very, very

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few women in the political sphere and who both overcame tremendous

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obstacles to take part in the way they did. Thatcher to a much

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greater extent than Devlin, whose political career was relatively

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short. It is interesting to see that kind of coverage of two female

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politicians. It is not that often that we get that kind of programme.

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They may not have achieved absolute truth, but was each her fair

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representation of its protagonist? There was not a complete portrayal

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of Thatcher's career. You did see the sinking of the Belgrano and

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that a lot of people died and that it was a controversial decision.

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The things left out work Pinochet, the Chilean dictator, she backed

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him to the end and really liked him. Also Mark Thatcher's outings with

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the mercenaries. He gave -- it gave the impression he was in Scotland

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on holidays. South Africa. You did not know he could not come back.

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That was something that was going to pray on somebody's mind at her

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stage. There were things left out in Bernadette, too. You can

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criticise it more because it was a linear documentary. You would

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expect her to be asked to stand over topics. It also showed her

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showing a lot of kindness to his son's afterwards, there was

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something not explored. There were a few other items like that. She

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was not asked any questions, she was not booked through her paces at

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all. -- put through. Do you think the writer Zettel with a view to

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expose some kind of truth or are they only interested in making a

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good story? Of course, a good story is at the heart of the film. As a

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portrayal of someone suffering from dementia who is dealing with this

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disappointment at the end of their life or the sense of sadness, I

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thought it was interesting from that perspective. Outside of the

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politics, that sort of intimate portrait, that made an interesting

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story. The Meryl Streep film have to assume no knowledge whatsoever.

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Would we assume the Devlin film would be made for people who had a

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lot of background knowledge? suppose it would, but you did get a

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fair bit of background put in. There were some things airbrushed

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out. The Thatcher film, people probably would have been familiar

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with the Falklands War and knew what happened, strikes in Britain,

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Thatcher being... You had those points of reference. But will it

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last in 10 years, will people remember it so much? We have had

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other films about prime ministers during their lifetimes, but this

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one showed her weakness more than the films made about Churchill

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during his time, which were pure celebration. Difficult, I suppose,

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to make films about people who are still alive. It must, the way you

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approach it? Of course. The greater the historical distance, the more

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perspective the film-maker can bring to it. I did think there was

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a certain amount of gender bias, we were looking at her as a mother and

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a wife as well as a politician in a way that the coverage of people

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like Churchill has never really concerned itself with. In both

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films, there was talk of sacrifice is made. Bernadette Devlin was a

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victim of them -- an assassination attempt and she talked about the

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effect on her family. That was something the two protagonists had

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in common. Yes, that was interesting, and Devlin... In fact

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-- the Thatcher film there is no real reflection on that issue. I

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was interested in what Devlin had to say about that and the impact on

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her daughters. She thought Grishin had been victimised. That was

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something I felt was a little bit airbrushed and should have been

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examined more. It was the Germans who wanted her and the British

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authorities basically stopped it. Questioning about a bomb attack at

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a barracks. That's right, attacks on British forces in Germany. Jack

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Straw halted the extradition on one occasion and then the Belfast

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courts did it another time. A little narrative given that people

0:25:400:25:50
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were out to get her. It was uncritical. Two women who wins by a

0:25:510:26:00

strong feelings of love are hate. - - inspire. Yes. Good subject for

0:26:000:26:04

documentaries or biopics. Yes, certainly. Both very influential

0:26:040:26:08

women. Thatcher, I was in primary school when Thatcher was elected

0:26:080:26:12

and I remember taking an interest in a childish way in this election

0:26:120:26:16

in Britain and in the possibility of there being a woman prime

0:26:160:26:22

minister. The fact that it now seems like something that is

0:26:220:26:27

entirely possible and even quite normal is Thatcher's legacy in a

0:26:270:26:34

positive sense. So I think they are hugely influential women. Would it

0:26:340:26:40

be fair to say that Thatcher created her own scenario? She was

0:26:400:26:45

something completely new whereas Bernadette Devlin was just a

0:26:450:26:52

product of her time? Well, Bernadette Devlin, meeting her, at

0:26:520:26:56

earlier stages, she was an incredibly forceful person. You

0:26:560:27:01

kind of expected her to go on longer in politics than she did,

0:27:010:27:09

and the assassination attempt sat her energy and one.. Thatcher, she

0:27:090:27:16

did break the mould. I don't know if you could call her... We never

0:27:160:27:22

had a woman prime minister before. But she did do it by becoming a man

0:27:220:27:32
0:27:320:27:32

in a man's world, almost. She did it in a tough way and also by a

0:27:320:27:38

deepening her voice. Spitting Image, she was portrayed speaking like

0:27:380:27:41

Churchill, and Meryl Streep managed that very well. She was very shrill

0:27:410:27:51

at the start. We must leave it there. The Bernardette documentary

0:27:510:27:55

is showing at the Q FT in Belfast at the end of this month.

0:27:550:27:58

And that's where we must leave it this time round. We'll do it again

0:27:580:28:08

next week at the usual times. I Where did you get your licence

0:28:080:28:13

from? Some carry on this week. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness

0:28:130:28:18

are sick with jealousy. Scotland could be ended pendant in two years

0:28:180:28:21

and they didn't even have to fire a shot in anger. You can love or hate

0:28:220:28:27

Alex Salmond, but at least he's not worried about... They are taking

0:28:270:28:35

away all of a fund. Hundreds are losing their jobs so we can't hate

0:28:350:28:40

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