15/09/2011 Hearts and Minds

Hello. Welcome to the new season of Hearts and Minds. On the programme

this evening: It all ended in tears for Margaret Ritchie, but will the

new leader bring the SDLP better fortune? The return of the

supergrass, but is justice itself on trial?

And, guess who's on line for the top Civil Service job? Insiders

only, please! Well the public think it's a stitch-up. That's what

happens. So, by tomorrow, we'll know the names of the hopefuls

putting their names forward for the leadership of the SDLP. The job

many would see above the management of terminal decline. I am joined by

Seamus Mallon. Mr Mallon, welcome to Hearts and Minds. Where did it

all go wrong? Well, let's see where it went right. Let's start where it

went right and look at the contribution of the SDLP for 20-odd

years. At a time when there was no forum, no advantages, violence

around us, we kept the belief in the political process alive. That

was then, this is now. Yes, but I want to put it in that context. Now

we have fell upon hard times, let me give you some reasons. Some of

the reasons in which two sovereign Governments actually ditched the

SDLP and the Ulster Unionist Party, so they could get the type of

involvement of the DUP and Sinn Fein that they've got. That may be

the way politics works. There are other reasons as well, not least

the fact that we were referred to as selfish. Indeed when we took our

political opposition by the hand give them the status they required,

it's no surprise that they then started to outstrip us in the polls.

Were you naive? I think I would say that we were thinking of the

community before we were thinking of the party. So, in that sense....

From now, and this is where we start. From now we think of the

party. We have given our contribution to the community. We

will deal with it in such a way that we will be demanding of the

new leader the type of professionalism in terms of what we

could do. Let's separate that over which we have no control, and there

are things over which we have no control. From those things that we

have control over, like membership, like organisation, like the quality

of our representatives as MLAs and as district councillors. Like the

way in which I, as an ordinary party member, portray the SDLP and

the image of it. Now that.... that not the point - you've left it

too late? No, I don't think so. This is one of the myths. It will

be a long, hard way back. Let's build on it incrementally. Let's do

it in such a way that everybody outside will know there is a new

leader, that there is a policy and philosophy and position people can

identify with, that the SDLP takes itself seriously. We can't expect

other people to do it. Do you accept responsibility - you have

criticised organisation and the way the party appears. Is it not the

fact if you were concentrating on the wider good of the community you

and Jon Hune did not prepare the way for a new generation to take

over from you? There's some truth in that. Yes, at that period of

time, with negotiations w the way in which we were trying to get a

resolution of the problems, and think of the resolution of the

problems, the way in which a new political structure was founded,

north/south bodies were founded, east/west bodies. All those things

were done in the worst of circumstances. Yes ve -- yes, there

is a truth that you say that we did not give the time that we should

have given to our more selfish needs. That will change. Now, when

you start to weigh-in, and when I start to weigh what was right and

what was wrong, it was absolutely right to ensure that the community

did not live in fear. It was absolutely right that we had

a police service that we could all identify with. It was absolutely

right that we had a fair system of administration. But it is also

right that the SDLP now looks after itself. Why do we need an SDLP now?

We have these things. The things which distinguished you from Sinn

Fein was your opposition to violence. Now everybody is opposed

to violence. What is the role for the SDLP? Leave other parties aside.

Let's say what I see our party as - a party of integrity, a party

that's not going to have one set of policies in the Republic of Ireland

and a different set of policies.... You said leave other parties out of

it. I did not mention any party. all know what you're talking about.

There are other parties in the south of Ireland as well. The

ability to think our way into the future. Do you know, our perimeters

didn't end on that date of good Friday, when the astkpwreement was

-- agreement was signed. That is not the end of our political

aspirations. I pose this question to yourself and to everybody else -

does anybody imagine that the type of politics we have now will be

with us in say 20 years time? Will the same type of people

representing the same parties be switching, moving the deckchairs

around on the deck of the Titanic to see how they will spend the �1

billion. Will you put the SDLP into formal opposition? No. For this

reason, A, we negotiated very hard on a non-inclusive basis and that

includes us as well. Right, we are low down, on the lower rung of the

ladder at the moment. OK, we have one minister. What is our aim? We

go to two-three. We get to two- three, we aim for four-five. We

don't let any of these things get in the way. Do people say you are a

hopeful optimist? I am not an optimist, I am very much a realist.

I do know within this community, and I am talking about the

nationalist community and the unionist community there is a very,

very big need for parties of integrity, parties who will have

the vision for the future and parties who will not spend their

political lives word-healing and looking after their own prospects.

Thank you. There's been speculation about who will be slugging it out

for the SDLP crown. My next guest will talk us through the names and

give us the SP. You are both very welcome. Steve,

it would be fair to say there's one certainty on this list and that's

Patsy McGlone. H se probably the favourite. -- he is probably the

favourite. He can put his head above the parapet. He argued change

was needed and was prepared to take the risk. There was a possibility

he had gone too soon and may only serve the purpose as acting for

somebody else to come through. There is a growing feeling now that

he's in a prime position. His critics are starting to chip away

at the rational as to why he should be leader. One point which has been

raised privately and will probably come up in the debates and become

public, is they look across to the Ulster Unionist Party. They see

that a rural MLA, perhaps not all that well known, I would say his

constituency is elected leader of the unionist party, there are a few

rumbling about his candidacy. His answer is he is a politician of

some standing, of decades and he can argue against that. What we are

yet to hear is a detailed explanation of what his big idea

for the party is. That brings us to Alasdair McDonnell - what's the

situation there? He's not giving his game away? The latest is

Alasdair McDonnell has called a press conference for tomorrow

morning, which has fuelled the speculation that Alasdair McDonnell

will enter this race. I am on record as saying some in the party

think that Alasdair McDonnell would need a silver steak through his

heart to give up his ambition of being leader. He was narrowly

defeated last time by Margaret Ritchie. He is MP and MLA. He did

carve out a nearby for himself against the odds. Organisationally

he seemed to have skills. Some see him as a bull in a chin that shop.

He can be -- in a china shop. He can be quite blunt. He says he has

the prescription to, as a doctor, he has the prescription to solve

the SDLP's problems. He would be, I think a very serious contender.

we come to the Environment Minister, who gave support to Margaret

Ritchie. At the moment we realise we'll have four candidates. It

seems there'll be sufficient nominations. Now Alex is a

politician who within the SDLP has fought a lonely battle in Belfast.

He was seen for a period as someone in a precarious position there. To

become a minister he has raised his standing. He seems to have

performed well. There is also, however, a perception though that

on one hand he is seen as something of an intellectual powerhouse

within the party, he seemed to be on a par to Mark Derkan. He has had

tense encounters with other party members. There is a question

whether he would be able to get sufficient support. The counter-

argument is he could scope up support from Derry and South

Belfast. That has benefited Margaret Ritchie in the past.

McDevin who is a new boy. If he were to go he would be swimming in

the same water as Derek Atwood. They are from the Labour part of

the party. He did serve during the multi-party talks in 1988. He

electorally doesn't have a great and he should put his ambition to

the side. He was co-opted to Stormont and he was elected for the

first time this year. He had a sweat to get elected. Supporters

say he's young, he's fresh. He does not have the baggage of some of the

other veterans, if you like. it's a four-horse race. Thank you

for your expert commentary. It's not really like school,

politics chugs on year round, as everyone knows. This summer we had

an SDLP leadership tussle. This week's proposals for 16

Westminster constituencies, not 18, which in turn would shrink the

number of MLAs elected for the same constituencies. Oh, and a possible

Sinn Fein candidate for President of Ireland, who says Gerry Adams

won't run on the Sinn Fein platform. What?

The police ombudsman faced the Assembly's justice committee as

they came back from holiday. After three damning reports in his office

the most recent omission by himself. He blamed the criticisms, not

himself for the weird comment that the criticisms were becoming

dysfunctional on their impact on the office. Minister for Justice,

David Ford, seems to be willing to them them say, as Al wants to until

next summer. That is justice delayed for the troubled victims

whose troubled cases he cannot investigate until the office is

straightened out and disaster for the post which means every once of

credibility to strengthen respect for policing. Margaret Ritchie did

what Al won't do and stood down when it became clear division over

her leadership wouldn't help the poor old SDLP. Her going didn't

completely clear the air. Patsy McGlone and Alasdair

McDonnell went on striking posing as possible successors. McGlone up

front, McDonnell hanging back, which is not a bit like McDonnell.

He has to declare by tomorrow though. In the mean time he's had

to face the long-expected proposal that re-jigging constituencies

means the chop for his seat. Gregory Campbell is the other MP

likely to be affected. It's goodbye to East London Derry, West Tyrone,

Mid-Ulster, hello Glenshane and Mid-Tyrone. Boundary changes these

days are mostly accepted. It is a matter of maths, or as wise old owl

and former boundary commissioner, Maurice Hayes put it, whether you

work around clockwise or anti- clockwise, the last guy gets

squeezed. Cameron stayed quiet, so did the DUP. Although it looks like

confining the SDLP to South Down and Foyle, there was no outrage and

solidarity at the lost of West Belfast. Not a good week for a guy

called Al. For Sinn Fein though, it was another lunge towards the right,

a sizable crowd on the water front for their first Northern Ard Fheis,

plus a former presbyterian chaplain, to hail Martin McGuinness as one of

the great leaders and his friend. A bit of presbyterian flintiness

would have pleased the Martin McGuinness theme of reaching out to

unionism. Where's the challenge in reaching out to a marsh mellow?

Reverend Latimer may have overdone In this age of equality of

opportunity you would think the Civil Service which be a beacon but

that is not the case. They are looking for a new top cap but only

internal candidates need apply. Our reporter investigates the closed

ranks of Our civil service. As these members of the Civil Service

limber up for the year ahead, who will be in charge? There is no

doubt that leading the Northern Ireland Civil Service is a tough

job. You will be responsible for 12 departments with a combined staff

of 28,000. What sort of qualities do you need to lead the Civil

Service team? My successor has to be someone who can be firm with our

political masters. Absolutely, no- nonsense with that lot. Joking

aside, there are concerns that the Civil Service can be a law unto

itself. There are very upset established procedures that you

have to go through in order to make policy. You have to go through the

civil service and work with them. I found early on they were only too

anxious to facilitate you in making policy, but there were times when I

found them a bit obstructive because they thought that they knew

better than I did. The best dates back to direct rule. Civil servants

were required to undertake tasks which would normally have fallen to

ministers. Devolution itself has changed the situation where it is

now properly the devolved ministers who stand out in public and not

civil servants. What about the make-up of the civil service? It is

still, in the words of one critic, male, pale and steel. There has

never been a woman head for example. -- stale. The Northern Ireland

Civil Service has not moved with the times. Compared to England

often the higher echelons of and a more diverse range of people.

the present head took over in 2008, the post was advertised internally

and externally. This time, it is only open to those already in the

Northern Ireland Civil Service. This former head said that is

because the job requires a complex range of skills. It is unlikely you

could develop those skills other than through many years of training

and experience within the Civil Service. You would not take another

profession like the army for example and appoint a biology

teacher as their head. While the guessing game over which internal

candidate will get the job has started, the appointment process

has been questioned. The body that oversees the appointments of senior

civil servants have expressed great concern that the post will be

filled through internal competition. In response, the Northern Ireland

Civil Service says such appointments in Dublin and London

are all sorts internal. -- also internal. The public think it is a

stitch-up. People will say there is no point in applying for this post

because it has already been fixed, I would say that is not the way it

is. Alex Attwood is calling for the process to be suspended until it

can be discussed by the Executive next week. I wrote to Peter

Robinson and Martin McGuinness on 3rd September saying I did not

agree with the approach they have adopted. The head of the Civil

Service has particular responsibilities to their office

and also to the Executive, permanent secretaries and

Government in general. It is not something to be decided by them in

private for whatever reason. We cannot have a situation where the

head of the Civil Service is appointed through private

competition whereas the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland is

appointed through open competition. So, while the competition may be

under way, how the post is filled is still in dispute. Whoever takes

over the post is guaranteed do have a high profile start to the role.

The Supergrass trials of the 1980s collapsed with hundreds of

convictions overturned. The process is under way again with 14 UVF

suspects in the dock. Will the result be any different this time?

Mary O'Rawe, you are a lecturer in law, it is still a very high-risk

strategy, isn't it? The pendulum has swung both ways now. We have

the human rights Act in place which did not exist in the 80s. The right

to silence has been eroded. Did add a number of issues that need to be

taking into account. What are they? The fundamental issue is we are

looking to convict people on the basis of evidence that is dodgy. If

people have been involved in criminality themselves they have

their own reasons for giving evidence. In the background of that

there is the police motivation for getting certain people off the

streets. Some of the motives will come out in trial but there is

still a lot of questions over the morality of dealing with justice in

this sort of way. Your son was a victim of a UVF killer and he was -

- his killer was brought to justice in a similar way. What is your

view? There are differences from the 80s until now. I agree with the

system, providing it is done properly. There is no doubt that

the ones who have turned Supergrass are assisting offenders and they

are benefiting from the process. It will be a matter for the judge to

decide. It is all down to credibility. If they deem them

credible witnesses then fine. We are talking about people who have

been animals, involved in the highest levels of crime. My own

personal opinion and other people's opinions of whether they should get

these deals or not I think, it is a good thing. Talking about the

morality of it, in terms of the morality do you think it is fine

because the end justifies the means of getting the convictions?

morality... At the end of the day, there are families sitting here who

would not have a hope in hell of getting people into court over

their loved ones killings. If it is a system that change is that then

fine. It must be done in the proper manner though. The whole defence

rests on undermining the credibility of these witnesses. We

have seen that this week in the High Court. They are accused of

being befuddled with drugs and drink. That is going to be the

whole thrust of the defence case. That is what happens in criminal

trials. You try to undermine the prosecution evidence. If the

evidence is based on people who, by their own admission, have been

involved in quite heinous act and have histories of lying and

difficulties themselves, possibly mental health vulnerabilities, all

these things are factored into the next. It is not difficult to pick

holes in a prosecution case like this. The question is can these

convictions be sustained? In terms of credibility of witnesses and

talking about UVF members being befuddled by drunk -- drugs and

drink, that is not going to interfere with the credibility of

the evidence, is it? There are people involved in peddling drugs

in the community, involved in serious crime within their

community, we are not talking about a quarter of the angels. It is an

organisation involved in drugs and crime. None of what we are hearing

should surprise us. I think the trial is a huge embarrassment for

the UVF. Here we have former UVF members giving Supergrass evidence

against other alleged members of the UDF. One of them is an alleged

Special Branch agent. None of this is about defending Ulster or

fighting the IRA, it is about loyalist infighting and criminality.

The other big concern for the UVF is what they are looking at at the

moment, it is the tip of de-ice prayer. -- the iceberg. A senior

UVF figure is being debriefed who will be brought towards the four of

the court. The difference between Haggerty and these footsoldiers is

that he sat at the top of the table. He has evidence to expose the top

leadership. You want to see these alleged handlers in court

themselves? They are actually worse to me. They are worse than the

people who carried out the killings. Those ones who carried out the

killings, that is what they do, they are criminals. You expect

better from the security forces and the different Government bodies to

make sure the process is used right and people are brought to justice

in the proper way. We have handlers here who were involved at the

highest levels of murders and atrocities. People in the

organisation were allowed practically a three round to do

exactly what they wanted to do. As soon as the handlers are brought in

examples are made of them so you can get this out of the system. How

can you have faith in the security system and process if no one is

being punished? The you think it seems our security system is

getting its hands dirty with this type of process? I think you cannot

avoid it. Is the price worth paying for putting a number of people

behind bars for some time. We have to ask soul-searching questions, is

this all our justice can deliver. For every story that is told there

are a number of stories not being told. For everyone who is put in

the dock the ran a number of others who are being protected from being

put in the dock. If justice is seen to be done in a certain way that is

bound to have, particularly at this fragile place in the peace protest

-- process, it could be very damaging over much longer term.

Thank you all for your insides. That is where we must leave it.

Goodbye for now. Some carry on this week. Unemployment may be ageing

but there is one job that will never be filled, public relations

adviser to the Orange Order! Only orange men could successfully

deflect attention from the Real IRA who were busy trying to murder a

doctor. Meanwhile the Executive has so many issues to deal with the