Browse content similar to 16/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the programme. The controversy over the Sinn Fein | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
appointment of a convicted killer as a Stormont adviser is the latest | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
manifestation of a seemingly intractable question about how we | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
should deal with the legacy of the troubles. This week, the first and | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
Deputy First Ministers endorse add new initiative to record for | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
posterity, the accounts of people who came through violence, to | 0:00:37 | 0:00:41 | |
become closely involved in the peace process and, in a few minutes, | 0:00:41 | 0:00:45 | |
I'll be asking Peter Robinson for his views on the long-term | 0:00:45 | 0:00:49 | |
solutions. First, Julia Paul on the latest efforts to heal the wounds | 0:00:49 | 0:00:54 | |
of the past. This reconciliation statue stands | 0:00:54 | 0:01:01 | |
in the grounds of Stormont. It's a copy of statues also erected in the | 0:01:01 | 0:01:06 | |
ruins of Coventry Cathedral, at hirosh may in Japan and Berlin in | 0:01:06 | 0:01:10 | |
Germany -- Hiroshima. It links all the places because all have seen | 0:01:10 | 0:01:14 | |
terrible events which have shaped their histories. Unlike those other | 0:01:14 | 0:01:18 | |
places, in Northern Ireland, the past is never far from the present | 0:01:18 | 0:01:22 | |
because no-one can agree on exactly what happened. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:26 | |
So, maybe the answer is to make sure that everyone's version of | 0:01:26 | 0:01:30 | |
history is included. May I say to all of you who've come from near | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
and far, thank you so much for giving up some time this afternoon. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:39 | |
At Stormont, the great and good gather to hear about a Newark demic | 0:01:39 | 0:01:44 | |
study into the peace process. The Layers of Meaning project, led by | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
researchers from Queen Mary University of London, will collate | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
an online archive, including interviews with 100 key players in | 0:01:52 | 0:01:57 | |
the peace process. There'll also be a community project to record | 0:01:57 | 0:02:02 | |
personal stories from people in the border areas. There are so many | 0:02:02 | 0:02:06 | |
people even that were once household names that are no longer | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
household names, people that have long since been forgotten but | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
played a key role and there were many other people that were never | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
in the public domain. When you get to ground level, there's also | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
individuals that are crying out to be heard and feel their stories and | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
experiences haven't been represented and perhaps -- in | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
perhaps the books that have been written. In that sense, I think | 0:02:25 | 0:02:29 | |
this is an opportunity to capture, for future generations, that wide | 0:02:29 | 0:02:34 | |
range of accounts. I honestly think there's a sense of urgency about it. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:40 | |
Even as we develop this proposal, a number of key witnesses passed away | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
and other obituaries follow week- by-week. There is a sense of | 0:02:43 | 0:02:47 | |
urgency in terms of kp churing that. It has support in Northern Ireland | 0:02:47 | 0:02:53 | |
as the highest level -- capturing that. History has many voices and | 0:02:53 | 0:02:58 | |
many of them are in this room. In one way or another, everyone here's | 0:02:58 | 0:03:02 | |
had some role during the period of the last decades in Northern | 0:03:02 | 0:03:09 | |
Ireland. Each of us with our own angle and vision has a view on how | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
problems arose, how they continued and who was to blame, what might | 0:03:13 | 0:03:18 | |
have been done better. One of the faders of the peace process and the | 0:03:18 | 0:03:23 | |
peace process as one of the most successful peace processes in the | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
world today, is that they feel they have to deal with the past. We | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
spend a lot of time talking about it from the Good Friday Agreement, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
right through to the present day. Those who're critical of a solution | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
not being found, they haven't come up with any solutions themselves. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:44 | |
But the problem is, one person's solution to the past can rub salt | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
into the wounds of another. The long-awaited report into how to | 0:03:48 | 0:03:53 | |
deal with Northern Ireland's history, chaired by Lord Eames and | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
Dennis Bradley, was released two years ago and has been garting dust | 0:03:57 | 0:04:02 | |
since. When launched, one of the proposals the make recognition | 0:04:02 | 0:04:08 | |
payments to victims was deeply controversial. Just stop it, will | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
you! Just stop it! That's the problem with Northern Ireland, | 0:04:12 | 0:04:17 | |
we've all got to be heard. Sorry. We came to the process, most of us, | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
aware of the vast array of opinions that victims have so that not every | 0:04:21 | 0:04:28 | |
victim wants the same thing. Reverend Lesley Carroll sat on the | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
independent consultative group that drew up the report. One thing we | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
were counselled about early in the process was to be aware always of | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
who wasn't talking to us. We were conscious that there was a swathe | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
of victims who were not talking to us at all, who were wanting | 0:04:42 | 0:04:47 | |
absolutely nothing done, just let it be, let us get on with our lives, | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
we don't want to rake this up, and we always have to balance that | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
against, I suppose, the two big calls that victims do make, one | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
being for justice, I want somebody to pay for this, I want to see | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
somebody brought to justice, I want to see this going through the | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
courts, and the other call which was, I would like to know why this | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
happened, who did this, why did they do it, they're looking for a | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
bit of truth. So those were 2t things we were handling around | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
victims really. Well, talking about it is one way | 0:05:15 | 0:05:22 | |
of tealing with the past. But this academic study is not aiming to | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
collect paramilitary confessions. Interviewees are warned not to talk | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
about illegal activity which has not been dealt with by the courts, | 0:05:28 | 0:05:34 | |
and some of the interviews will remain unpublished for 40 years. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
One thing we thought specifically with regard to politicians was, | 0:05:36 | 0:05:40 | |
they're never going to speak to us frankly, they are going to just | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
sing from the Hymnsheet when we ask them to speak on the record. There | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
are other people - I think it would be fair to say that the peace in | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
Northern Ireland is an uneasy peace - it's not a full peace yet. Other | 0:05:51 | 0:05:57 | |
people who say in the business community very much be hind the | 0:05:57 | 0:06:02 | |
scenes over the years have made huge contrinyuetions to | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
reconciliation between communities and peace initiatives -- huge | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
contributions. Unless we give guarantees, these people won't | 0:06:11 | 0:06:15 | |
spook. Among those attending the event was Richard moofrpblt in 1972, | 0:06:15 | 0:06:22 | |
he was blinded, aged ten, by a plastic bullet. -- Richard Moore. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:27 | |
In 1986, he founded the charity, children in crossfire. This project | 0:06:27 | 0:06:31 | |
here's certainly very worthwhile. Any avenue through which people can | 0:06:31 | 0:06:35 | |
hear the experiences of other people and also where their story | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
can be validated is very important. I'm probably lucky in a sense that | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
over the years my story's been told many times or people have asked me | 0:06:43 | 0:06:50 | |
my story or whatever. But really there are people within the four | 0:06:50 | 0:06:54 | |
walls of their house and they're still experiencing the terrible | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
trauma that maybe happened 30, 35 years ago and they are having to | 0:06:58 | 0:07:03 | |
deal with that. It's been ten years since this statue was erected at | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
Stormont. The reconciliation it celebrates is still far from come | 0:07:06 | 0:07:13 | |
pleement, but in the last decade, in Northern Ireland, think just how | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
much has changed -- still far from complete. The same issues come up | 0:07:18 | 0:07:22 | |
time and time again, this issue affects so many different layers | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
and levels. Do you sen it's probably one of the most important | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
issues for you to address in the next term of the assembly -- do you | 0:07:29 | 0:07:34 | |
accept? It's certainly an important issue, but when you say "address | 0:07:34 | 0:07:39 | |
it", I'm not sure there is an easy solution to this one. There is no | 0:07:39 | 0:07:43 | |
consensus as to how we deal with the issues of the past. Certainly, | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
there'll never be a common and agreed history as far as the past | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
is concerned. It's very clear that the kind of initiative that we | 0:07:52 | 0:07:56 | |
dealt with during the course of the week allows everybody to tell their | 0:07:56 | 0:08:02 | |
story from their angle and vision and it's uninterrupted. It's | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
unchallenged. Then the academics and historians and others can look | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
at what was said and make their own judgments in the future. On a | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
purely practical level, we've had criticism this week from the | 0:08:14 | 0:08:19 | |
Victims' Commission of the OFM saying there is an absence, delay | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
releasing funds to people who need money, victims suffering chronic | 0:08:23 | 0:08:27 | |
pain, a lack of progress on a victim service and what's needed is | 0:08:27 | 0:08:31 | |
a whole change management strategy. Do you accept all of those or any | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
of those criticisms? There's always room for improvement in any system. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
A good start would be to have direct conversation with us, rather | 0:08:38 | 0:08:43 | |
than grabbing headlines on the issue. Well, he says he wrote twice | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
to your office seeking an interview? The issue is dealt with | 0:08:47 | 0:08:51 | |
by junior ministers and they met them just before the election | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
period. We have substantially increased the amount of money that | 0:08:54 | 0:08:59 | |
we are putting into the victims' issues and, of course, we want to | 0:08:59 | 0:09:05 | |
ensure it gets directly to people. I have people coming to me with | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
issues relating to the Memorial Fund, so we want the smoothest | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
possible process. We are somewhat moving, because the weight is now | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
more towards trying to get individual victim who is've perhaps | 0:09:17 | 0:09:21 | |
not got linked in with victims' groups, so there is a movement | 0:09:21 | 0:09:25 | |
going on within the victims' organisations. On the wider issue, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:33 | |
you said at the time of the Eames Bradley report, you accused them of | 0:09:33 | 0:09:39 | |
moral ambivalent and equivalence. The DUP was working in its own | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
definitions, you said, have you made any progress on that? We put a | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
Bill before the Assembly on the issue. As far as how to deal with | 0:09:46 | 0:09:50 | |
the victims' issues, we have very much been basing our way forward | 0:09:50 | 0:09:55 | |
around the story-telling. Indeed, if you look at the kind of pace and | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
reconciliation constructive that we are looking at for that, you will | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
see there is a story-telling element in that. I think if we get | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
into a situation where we are expecting everybody to come to the | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
table and tell the complete truth about their role in the past, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
you're not going to get that. Therefore it leaves it very open to | 0:10:14 | 0:10:20 | |
people trying to rewrite history to propaganda, rather than truth and | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
reconciliation through that process. Is it then perhaps better to do | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
nothing on a wider scale simply to let the arguments go on, because, | 0:10:27 | 0:10:33 | |
as you say, agroment will never be reached? -- agreement will never be | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
reached? If you are expecting to have a version of the past that | 0:10:36 | 0:10:40 | |
everybody's going to endorse and put their hand up there, irnever | 0:10:40 | 0:10:44 | |
going to get there. We have seen over the last number of weeks, any | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
reference back to the past on incidents that have occurred causes | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
great hurt within the community. I'm not sure this community wants | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
to relive all of the events it's gone through. I think there is a | 0:10:56 | 0:11:01 | |
requirement on the part of victims to be able to express their hurt, | 0:11:01 | 0:11:05 | |
how they've lost, how unjust it was the way they were treated and the | 0:11:05 | 0:11:08 | |
story-telling process allows them to do that in a way that doesn't | 0:11:08 | 0:11:15 | |
get us into a process where it's judicially, where you have QCs | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
lined up making more money out of the process having the case argued | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
out and orders cross-examination, that's not the way forward. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
said the appointment of Mary McArdle was a mistake, but you | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
stopped short of calling for her resignation. Your colleague said | 0:11:30 | 0:11:36 | |
she should. Why did not not go that step further? I thought I had gone | 0:11:36 | 0:11:41 | |
that far, by saying she shouldn't have been appointed. But not saying | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
she should resign? I have no process to stop that person | 0:11:45 | 0:11:47 | |
maintaining themselvess in that job. It's silly for any senior | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
Government officer to be saying somebody should do something when | 0:11:50 | 0:11:55 | |
you haven't got the power to do it. It gives you a position of | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
principle, doesn't it? I have no reluctance in saying I don't | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
believe she should have been in the job. It was insensitive and it's | 0:12:02 | 0:12:06 | |
turned out to be a major calamity as far as Sinn Fein's concerned. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:11 | |
But I've done more than simply talk about the issue. I've taken a step | 0:12:11 | 0:12:15 | |
of asking the Finance Minister to bring forward proposals as to how | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
he might look at the issues in the future. Don't forget... Isn't that | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
a way of doing nothing in the sense of a particularly controversial | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
incident. What will the reports say, we shouldn't have any more | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
advisers? What's it likely to come up with? Well, I don't want to, | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
because I'm expecting to see nit the next number of day, but I would | 0:12:33 | 0:12:40 | |
have very surprised if it didn't say, a special adviser is appointed. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:44 | |
That person is automatically seconded to the Civil Service, they | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
therefore are a temporary civil servant. What argument could you | 0:12:48 | 0:12:54 | |
possibly put forward that says that someone who's brought in at | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
probably about grade five of the Civil Service should not meet the | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
entry standards of the Civil Service. I think those are the | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
kinds of issues that we have to look at. What do you mean, in terms | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
of educational achievement? Education, character, background, | 0:13:07 | 0:13:12 | |
those issues. Would that not be discriminatory? Discriminatory that | 0:13:13 | 0:13:17 | |
somebody comes in as an AO or AA should have a higher standard than | 0:13:17 | 0:13:21 | |
somebody who's grade five? Sinn Fein have been saying for example, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:27 | |
Martin McGuinness said he compared the appointment of Mary McArdle to | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
the appointment of Nelson Mandela who didn't have much of an | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
education. Is that comparison ludicrous? Anyone will find a | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
difficulty in aligning the comparison. Again, there are | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
complex issues. With an elected representative, I don't think that | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
you have the right to interfere with the people's choice. These are | 0:13:49 | 0:13:54 | |
positions which are paid positions of Government. In my view, they | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
should align with the entry requirements of the Civil Service. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
But those are matters for the executive and ultimately for the | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
Assembly to decide. So you could someone who has won a university | 0:14:05 | 0:14:11 | |
degree in prison where he or she has been for committing a murder | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
who'd then be OK to appoint? wouldn't get into the Civil Service | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
if you were responsible for a murder. There are entry | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
requirements for the Civil Service. I'm saying that if you bring | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
somebody in at grade five, at the very least you could expect someone | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
at that pay grade and responsibility grade is a that they | 0:14:29 | 0:14:35 | |
meet the entry standards. Turning to the tribunal in Dublin, | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
investigating the border murder of two officers, the Government's said | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
they have to produce the final report by November. Do you think | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
it's right to have that kind of time limit imposed on any such | 0:14:46 | 0:14:55 | |
inquiry? No, it's not right. We raised this. I've spoken privately | 0:14:55 | 0:14:59 | |
to people and the Taoiseach. We discussed it at the council meeting | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
and on every occasion, the Government have made it very clear | 0:15:02 | 0:15:07 | |
that if more time is genuinely needed, it will be given. There was | 0:15:07 | 0:15:12 | |
some concern about the delay before there were any public hearings held. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
They're now under way. There are some fairly disturbing outcomes of | 0:15:15 | 0:15:19 | |
the public hearings so far. I think it's important that everybody sees | 0:15:19 | 0:15:25 | |
that the full story does come out and a proper assessment is made. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
were you encouraged that IRA members gave evidence to that | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
tribunal? They didn't give evidence to the tribunal. There was a | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
private meeting, as I understand it. With the legal team of the | 0:15:35 | 0:15:40 | |
tribunal? Well, as I understand it, with very clear demarkation lines | 0:15:40 | 0:15:45 | |
about what was being said and what could be passed on, it isn't the | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
same as coming before the tribunal, making themselves subject to | 0:15:48 | 0:15:53 | |
questioning from the other side. That just didn't happen. Do you | 0:15:53 | 0:16:03 | |
0:16:03 | 0:16:09 | ||
think the Secretary of State should Why is there a requirement for that | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
particular murder to be investigated? This is a difficulty | 0:16:13 | 0:16:18 | |
I have because people say to me, are my loved ones not as important? | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
You have people who why in the assembly who have been responsible | 0:16:21 | 0:16:25 | |
for murders and they are in government, are they not just as | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
likely to be brought before a tribunal and questioned about these | 0:16:29 | 0:16:36 | |
issues? To some extent, the range of issues, because people like to | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
inquire about what the state has done, start to skew what the queue | 0:16:41 | 0:16:46 | |
is of the past and start to rewrite the history of the past as if one | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
section of the community a loan was the section that was the victims. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:55 | |
You do not sound like this could be any long-term strategy available in | 0:16:55 | 0:17:02 | |
the lifetime of this assembly for legacy issues. I think there is | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
under criminal we make a start on the issue of storytelling and both | 0:17:06 | 0:17:11 | |
Gerry Adams and I endorse the initiative this week. Both of us by | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
endorsing the kind of programme that we have talked about, the | 0:17:15 | 0:17:20 | |
peace and reconciliation centre which will allow prison officers, | 0:17:20 | 0:17:26 | |
army personnel, victims, prisoners or to have their say as to how, | 0:17:26 | 0:17:32 | |
from their angle of vision, they saw the past number of decades. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:39 | |
land valuation at Crossnacreevy, valued at �200 million, to enable | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
the Department of Finance and Personnel to give subsidies to | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
farmers. How could that have happened? A valuation which has now | 0:17:47 | 0:17:53 | |
been reduced to 2.8 million. It is crazy. You have remember the | 0:17:53 | 0:17:57 | |
context in which it was done whether valuations of properties | 0:17:57 | 0:18:01 | |
were going up and up. It is not the role of ministers to be charging | 0:18:01 | 0:18:05 | |
what we are told by our professionals. Now has dropped in | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
the committee yesterday when it was revealed this valuation was arrived | 0:18:10 | 0:18:15 | |
at by getting a valuation for land with planning permission in Belfast | 0:18:15 | 0:18:18 | |
and multiply it by the number of acres. There seemed to an absurd | 0:18:18 | 0:18:25 | |
way of doing it. Yes. The new endorsed that method. I did not | 0:18:25 | 0:18:30 | |
endorse that method at all. DD not ask how the valuation was arrived | 0:18:30 | 0:18:35 | |
at? We are given valuations for properties and it is not our | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
position to question a professional valuation. But it was not a | 0:18:40 | 0:18:46 | |
professional valuation it was multiplied by the acting Permanent | 0:18:46 | 0:18:52 | |
Secretary. We were given it as a professional valuation of the land. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:57 | |
So you accept it was not a professional evaluation. The only | 0:18:57 | 0:19:02 | |
valuation at that land, with prices going up almost daily, had begun on | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
the basis of what the values were currently up that time. It is | 0:19:06 | 0:19:14 | |
absurd to think that any planning permission could up the value of | 0:19:14 | 0:19:18 | |
lamb which did have planning permission. And one year later its | 0:19:18 | 0:19:22 | |
value was reduced on paper by a teatime. It is a bad deal for the | 0:19:22 | 0:19:28 | |
taxpayer. There was no deal for the tax payer. They did not lose any | 0:19:28 | 0:19:33 | |
money. They still have the land. But they have paid out 100 to �2 | 0:19:33 | 0:19:40 | |
million on the basis of its assumed value. They did not spend the money. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:46 | |
Money was allocated. At this moment in time, �150 million will be quite | 0:19:46 | 0:19:51 | |
useful. We are not talking about money having been spent on anything. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:56 | |
We are talking about money being given to the Department of | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
Agriculture to be used for public use. I guarantee you that the | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
executive would have given the money anyway for that purpose. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:10 | |
amount? Well, why wouldn't they? Because they had to find his summer | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
because they did not have it and that is why the Department of | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
Agriculture got this valuation because it was on the how was going | 0:20:16 | 0:20:20 | |
to justify the money. If there is a requirement for us to find funds, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:30 | |
0:20:30 | 0:20:31 | ||
we find the funds, whether it is by reducing the assets of a department. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:36 | |
We ensured that the Health Department, and under our present | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
minister I can be certain the Health Department well-conceived | 0:20:39 | 0:20:44 | |
where the savings they can be made a good be made. I could go into | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
some very considerable detail about the way the health department has | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
been handled over the last four years where the performance and | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
will begin it could not go through the doors, so there we could see | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
where savings could be made. efficiency is not a word you would | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
associate with this land deal. You're talking about a land dealers | 0:21:04 | 0:21:09 | |
of land was sold. It was not sold. It is still within the government's | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
responsibility. Money was given from one department to another for | 0:21:13 | 0:21:18 | |
the purpose that would have been agreed by the executive. It is all | 0:21:19 | 0:21:24 | |
very best minister at Bond level. If it is, it is not this minister. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:30 | |
We allocate funds on the basis of professional valuation. I am not in | 0:21:30 | 0:21:35 | |
the position of going out, did King of the land, of measuring it, | 0:21:35 | 0:21:41 | |
determining what is value it is. did not crush your mind to say hold | 0:21:41 | 0:21:49 | |
on a minute? Hold on a minute for what? Tom Eliot would have been the | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
first person saying that we need the money for the Department of | 0:21:52 | 0:21:57 | |
Agriculture, as indeed most of the executive would be saying as well. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:01 | |
The Chancellor is here this week, do you think he is fit to progress | 0:22:02 | 0:22:08 | |
the issue of lowering corporation tax? Is that the a new way for it? | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
I'm not convinced it is the only way forward, I am convinced it | 0:22:12 | 0:22:18 | |
would be a massive help and would encourage local indigenous business | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
to expand. But not at any cost, your finance minister says. In | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
other words, if it will cost us too much of what we bought loose from | 0:22:29 | 0:22:36 | |
the submission. Obviously, a judgment would have been made. We | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
have a block grant and we have to look at the amount of money that is | 0:22:40 | 0:22:42 | |
reduced in that block grant as opposed to the benefits that we | 0:22:42 | 0:22:47 | |
would get from a lower rate of corporation tax. Ian Paisley Junior | 0:22:47 | 0:22:52 | |
has been nasty about the assembly saying that the quality of debate | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
is pathetic and that it is more like a county council than the | 0:22:56 | 0:23:01 | |
regional parliament. Do you accept those criticisms? I don't think I | 0:23:02 | 0:23:05 | |
accept any of them. There are individuals within the assembly who | 0:23:05 | 0:23:09 | |
have come from the local Cubbon background who, at the early part | 0:23:09 | 0:23:14 | |
of a turn, still have not come to terms with the new level at which | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
they are operating. That is a learning curve, just as those who | 0:23:17 | 0:23:24 | |
have just entered Westminster had a learning curve. Do you think Ian | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
Paisley Junior has just cut a bit above himself with the pick job? | 0:23:28 | 0:23:35 | |
You think that is the big job? thinks it is! Most people will say | 0:23:35 | 0:23:39 | |
that the real business of politics is taking place in the assembly and | 0:23:39 | 0:23:42 | |
that is where those who want to be involved in the cut-and-thrust want | 0:23:42 | 0:23:50 | |
to be. He says that is where the decisions will be made, not in the | 0:23:50 | 0:23:56 | |
current county council of December, as he puts it. The reality for all | 0:23:56 | 0:24:01 | |
of us is that we have the job of work to do in the assembly. I | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
regard that as being very important and the regard the level of | 0:24:05 | 0:24:11 | |
contribution in the assembly to be every good as at Westminster. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:21 | |
0:24:21 | 0:24:22 | ||
Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over | 0:24:22 | 0:24:25 | |
again and somehow expecting the results to be different. And here | 0:24:25 | 0:24:29 | |
we are, a few weeks after yet another election which promised to | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
keep us moving forward in a spirit of harmony and stability, and the | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
handbags are out already, with the bitching back at full volume. A | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
hardly surprising result when you return exactly the same parties, | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
with exactly the same attitudes and mostly the same people and then put | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
them into exactly the same Executive. But hey, we always knew | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
that this was less of an election and more of a one-hour make-over | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
programme. Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness made polite, | 0:24:52 | 0:24:54 | |
albeit giggly noises, about Tom Elliott's game-changing proposals | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
for a collectively binding Programme for Government before the | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
Executive was formed, only to dump the idea when the ballot boxes | 0:25:00 | 0:25:02 | |
closed and they could stop pretending that they actually | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
respected each other. So prepare yourselves for another four years | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
in which so many policies required for creating the new-era Northern | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
Ireland will be brushed under so many carpets that ministers will | 0:25:11 | 0:25:16 | |
eventually have to don hiking boots and then climb a mountain to get | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
into their offices. Instead of real politics, therefore, the parties | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
will have too much time on their hands for indulging the age-old | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
rituals of score-settling and annoying the hell out of each other. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
Shortly after Queen Elizabeth II received a standing ovation in | 0:25:27 | 0:25:31 | |
Dublin Castle, the new Sinn Fein Lord Mayor of Belfast replaced her | 0:25:31 | 0:25:35 | |
portrait with the 1916 Proclamation of Irish Freedom. Mind you, this | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
piece of calculated pettiness probably had more to do with the | 0:25:38 | 0:25:41 | |
fact that the DUP's Deputy Lord Mayor is refusing to talk to him, | 0:25:41 | 0:25:45 | |
because it seems downright churlish to blame the Queen for Sinn Fein's | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
singular failure to get rid of the border, let alone deliver A Nation | 0:25:48 | 0:25:52 | |
Once Again. Over at Limavady it's as though the Good Friday Agreement | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
never happened, although it needs to be borne in mind that Limavady | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
has long operated within its own time zone. Anyway, it's become a | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
battle a day between a small Union Jack and a former IRA bomber, | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
accompanied by an approach to community relations which owes more | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
to EastEnders than to the Shared Future Strategy. In Castlereagh, | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
meanwhile, the DUP and UUP have ganged up on Alliance, which is a | 0:26:12 | 0:26:17 | |
bit like the Kray Twins taking on Mother Theresa. I know, go figure! | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
Up at the Assembly, having already trooped past Carson and Craigavon | 0:26:20 | 0:26:24 | |
on their way to the day job, Martin McGuinness and the Sinn Fein | 0:26:24 | 0:26:27 | |
benches had to listen to the unionist David Cameron delivering | 0:26:27 | 0:26:30 | |
an unashamedly pro-Union speech last week. Their faces said it all. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
Safe houses swapped for Stormont. Prison cells swapped for | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
ministerial office. Balaclavas swapped for Specsavers and pension | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
plans. The armalite and ballot paper swapped for Republican-lite | 0:26:39 | 0:26:43 | |
bullet points and a parliamentary order paper. Their eyes rolling | 0:26:43 | 0:26:48 | |
like people awakening to reality after a very long coma. The fact is | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
that Sinn Fein has become an old, tired party, a party of broken | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
dreams and dashed hopes. Tiocfaidh ar la has been replaced with | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
Tiocfaidh a gaga, in which an elderly leadership is still trying | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
to convince the younger members of the republican family that unity is | 0:27:01 | 0:27:05 | |
just around the corner. But just in case it isn't, they'll keep the | 0:27:05 | 0:27:07 | |
former troops happy with appointments geared to nothing more | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
profound than winding up unionists. So there it is. The same-old, same- | 0:27:11 | 0:27:16 | |
old: writ large, writ small and writ everywhere. 13 years after the | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
1998 referendum and the parties still find it easier to carve-up | 0:27:19 | 0:27:23 | |
than to share out. And that's probably why so many of you didn't | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
bother to vote. The thoughts of Alex Kane. And that | 0:27:26 | 0:27:30 | |
brings the season to a close for Hearts and Minds, as the organs of | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
Government begin to look forward to the summer shut down. Its been | 0:27:33 | 0:27:37 | |
another eventful year, thank you for staying with us. We'll be back | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
in the autumn, batteries fully charged for another session, I hope | 0:27:40 | 0:27:50 | |
0:27:50 | 0:27:51 | ||
you have a safe and sunny summer. Goodbye. Congratulations to | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
Christine bleakly, I wish her all the best. She is marrying a Premier | 0:27:56 | 0:28:04 | |
League footballer, what could possibly go wrong? One lawyer said | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
David Ford won a yellow pack justice and Benny had to explain | 0:28:08 | 0:28:14 | |
that you a pack is the stuff that poor people have to buy. Most of us | 0:28:14 | 0:28:20 | |
would be as happy been as rich as a demoted civil servant. We learn | 0:28:20 | 0:28:23 | |
this week that it is probably easier to turn gay people straight | 0:28:23 | 0:28:29 |