17/11/2011 Hearts and Minds

Hello, and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week: As the

Assembly agrees a programme for Government, we ask the parties if

it's all plain sailing from here on in. In this month of remembrance we

meet the MLA who went into politics on the death of her husband in

Afghanistan. And a reflection on the end of Ian Paisley's days in

the pulpit. So hallelujah! After months of

delay and procrastination, the Assembly has agreed a Programme for

Government. It's a wide-ranging document covering everything from

child poverty to local Government reorganisation. But is it a

blueprint for action or a list of aspirations. Let's find out.

Arlene Foster, first of all, let's look at the economy. It's obviously

the priority. You're talking about creating 25,000 jobs. A chief

economist of the Northern Bank has said in the current international

climate, creating jobs is virtually impossible. Where are you going to

get that many from? I think it's important you look back at our last

programme for Government targets and despite the fact we had very

difficult circumstances in Northern Ireland, we were able to exceed

those targets. So we're the victim of ouron own success. 25,000,

though? It was in or around the 25,000 mark. We felt the need to

stretch ourselves over this programme for Government targets.

We have set out clearly where we believe those jobs will come from.

They'll come from our own companies here in Northern Ireland. They'll

come from foreign and direct investment. They'll come from

business start-ups, and they'll come from our Jobs Fun, which was

set up after the April Budget. That Jobs Fund is there to try to boost

business, to try to help people to create jobs and indeed to try to

tackle issues such as youth unemployment. John O'Dowd, we're

enjoying - that's the wrong word - we're suffering the highest

unemployment since 1967. There are 60,000 people claiming unemployment,

one in five young people. Against that background, you might create

25,000, but you're probably going to lose a lot more. Banks have

their role to play. Citizens stepped up to the mark, bailed out

the banks, and the expectations were the banks would restart the

economy. We have senior economists in our banks saying it would be

impossible to create any jobs going into the future. I find that deeply

depressive. I see it as a signal that the banks... Some would say

realistic. No, politicians have a role in this society. Banks and

other financial institutions have their role. The support programme

from central Government into local firms drawing in foreign investment,

added to that we need banks to step up to the mark and play their part.

Alex Atwood, there are jobs supposed to be going in the public

sector - tens of thousands of jobs the unions are talking about. Again,

is it going to be a net loss, even if you do create 25 huh?

certainly agree with the sentiment you need to reach high because the

experience of Government over the last number of years is we haven't

achieved all we should have that there would be Ministers in

Government and not in power, that we would have a weak, not a strong

Government. But if we're going to really shape the next four or five

years, we need to fill in some of the other gaps in the programme for

Government, which is virtually silent on how we're going to

integrate the north and southern economies and the Health Service.

These are the big issues, imaginative issues, bold and daring

stra strategies that is going to drive forward an economic strategy.

So you think fixing your own place first is not the way to go about it.

No, we need to fix the economies of these islands, and the economy of

this island is bursting with opportunity to do more on the work

site. Yes, 25,000 is ambitious. Yes, it may be overly ambitious. I think

we should challenge ourself, but if we're prepared to do it in terms of

jobs within the North, then what can we do if we challenge ourselves

about economic and health strategies on the island of

Ireland? It is barely mentioned, John. Transport, health, the

economy - all are areas of mutual cooperation and benefit. Without

specific policies, it talks about developing those areas. There is an

intertwining theme in the doctrine - the east-west relationship

recognises the importance of the economic driver across the island.

It does, but 40% of all money on the island is spent on health. If

the governments north and south can't interrogate that figure and

do better in reducing the amount we spend on health and protect

services and jobs, then we're letting down the people of this

island, and that document does not fulfil those ambitions. Do you

share that view? I think the document's long on aspiration and

relatively short in terms of implementation, but it is Erica

Whymanly stages yet. It's going out for a three-month consultation.

We're modestly pleased we'll be able to put some ideas forward in

the last number of months and some of those have been incorporated.

But the real proof in the pudding would be in the eating. It's grand

to say we'd like to do this and that. One year from now, will we be

looking at delivery? That's the key message for all of us. We need to

start delivering. Steven Friar is saying it's too little too, late,

too slow, too timid, no grand vision. I think we have to be

judged over what happens in the four or five-year life span of the

Assembly. I think it's a good document, not perfect. It reflects

the coalition. We all have our fingerprints on it. We are in very

challenging time, but it's important we do focus on the

economy as the central issue, and the people will not forgive us if

we just go for nice, easy, soft targets. We have to be bold.

think it's important as well. We're talking about one document. There

are actually three documents issued today. I think it's important to

reflect on because that we have the Programme for Government. We have

an investment strategy for the next ten years and our economic strategy

looking forward to 2030. There's lot of work that went into all of

these documents. Speaking about the economic strategy, it's based on

research. It is based on consultation that took place

earlier. I think it is a good document because of the fact that

everybody has inputted into the document, including all of my

Ministerial colleagues. I agree. I make this point - I think your

document is the best of the three. I mean that. Most sincerely, folks!

Fully. I think the scholarships are some very good ideas going forward.

But surely you have to agree that given the level of child poverty in

the north, we have moved away from trying to half child poverty on one

hand and eradicate it on the other and having very warm, meaningless

strategies to deal with it. That is not good enough. Those are the sort

of issues that over the next six months you, I and all of us can

turn around for the benefit of everybody. This is the important

point Steven was making. We could have agreed words on a page two

weeks after the election, but would it have been tangible? I think

these documents are tangible. I think as the First Minister said in

the House today what we want to see is deliverence. Words mean nothing.

Looking at the last programme for Government, the OFM DFM agreed it

had only reached 45% of its - I beg your pardon - that 45% of its

objectives had not been reached. That's not a good augur for this

next programme, is it? I think we had a flagging democracy. In the

future, we won't be judged - what has been seen through these last

number of months and indeed the economic development strategy is

some colleagues around the table have found is what's easier to

produce a press release than it is the programme for Government and a

meaningful one. That's what the parties around the executive

working positively have done. Alex produced a draft document in April

and walked away from it when they refused to back up their own

commitment. The paper agreed by the executive last night was to move

forward on the basis of 11 counts of a more modern, efficient,

democratic process for local Government council. Are you

smarting on that one? You wanted 15? Let's deal with the first point.

Let's deal with the first point that John made. In April 2009, the

SDLP published New Priorities in Difficult Times. A meeting three

weeks ago of the budget review group of the executive had taken

that document and was trying to adopt and move forward 12 proposals.

How much stronger the Northern Ireland economy and budget would be

if the parties around this table two years ago had taken the advice

and moved forward in that way? Let's deal with the 11 issues...

Let's deal with the RPA. Let's. On the floor of the Assembly this

morning, Peter Robinson at 11.45am said, "When things change, we need

to respond to the circumstances of our time." Things have changed even

in the last three months when it comes to RPA because the council

leaderships - managers and representatives - have come forward

of proposals of �570 million over 25 years. If that doesn't say to

politicians and to the Ministers around this table - if it doesn't

say to them circumstances have changed and that we need to

change... You're now happy with 11 since yesterday? Well, what's

happened is that the programme for Government - the draft programme

for Government, not approved by the Assembly, a draft has gone out for

consultation, and the preferred model from most of the parties is

11. I think the best argument will prevail. Why do I think that?

Because last night during course of the executive meeting, all the

colleagues endorsed my proposal to put a legal ban on double jobing

even though six months ago the DUP voted against that and even when

the DUP were arguing... executive agreed to move forward on

the legislation to the 11 model? The executive agreed to that?

good argument will prevail. They brought it to 11? In order again

have good argument and the best argument to prevail... Stephen.

This debate illustrates the real challenges and expectation people

have over the Assembly. This has been bouncing around since 2002.

People have accused us of dragging our feet over it. Things like

Cohesion for Skills and Integration are big issues. If the executive

can actually go through those - we have made progress on a number of

those in the past few days, then we actually have a real track of

delivery, Tuition fees - those are real matters. Since the election,

the executive has delivered upon those.

What about building schools? The last programme for a Government

promised something like �715 million to be built in capital

projects for schools. That was one of the objectives that was not

achieved, so what is the future on that front in this coming

programme? The reality is this - the Tories came to power, took 40%

of our Capitol Building programme and took it away, so we can't build

schools unless you have money. We have had discussions with the

executive. I intend to meet the Minister finance in the weeks ahead.

We do have money for capital builds in the years ahead, and you'll also

be aware we have set out a programme where we'll look at area-

based planning for schools, so we know it is there for generations to

come. We don't have sufficient money to build all the schools.

Raising �450 million from selling assets - it was aLeigh eluded to

the next programme will look at what can be done on that front. But,

again, that's a source of income that's gone? I am faintly

disappointed by the conversation we're having here because we are

trying to deal with the reality, very difficult financial situation

going forward. We're talk about people's jobs and lives, about what

can be done to help things. There are particular issue, whether

you're talking about fuel poverty, schools or whatever - the key point

about this document is it's a draft document. It's based on information

and consultation, and we're going to have to find a way of making it

work, but it does require all of us, you know, to deal with fact and

reality. There is no point in trying to blame somebody else for

the mess we're in. We've got to deal with it ourselves and find a

way forward. That means facing up to the problems that face our

society. That is trying to find some money at the moment? There

will be hard decisions that have to be taken, but I do think that

people have to make an argument about if you want to invest in

something, whether it's schools or more apprenticeships or more help

for the economy, then you have to make an argument to the people of

Northern Ireland that says if we need more money, if we're going to

transfer it from one area to the other, then you're going to have to

buy in with us and say... One of the points made by the trade unions

and one of the criticisms of the programme is this is an acceptance

of the Tory-Lib Dem coalition's plans. There are two things to that.

Ia agree with what he's saying. We're in very harsh circumstances,

and we really do have to show best form going forward. That should be

the judge of everything we say as Ministers or an executive. But I do

worry about some of the content of this programme. The proposal you

can move 114,000 working-age benefit claimants into employment

by March 2015 is very - has got tones of us implementing Tory

welfare policy, and... Yes, in a moment. And the other thing is this,

the Scottish Government has exempted its local Government

pension contributors from any pension increase, has exempted them.

I argued for that at the executive four or five weeks ago and was

overruled, yet the Scottish Government has adopted the very

approaches I have adopted here that are proposed in the north. That's a

way of working through with unions in order to protect those...

know in particular youth unemployment, people economically

inactive, is probably the biggest issue facing society. It's a crisis.

We have to have ambitious targets. We have a similar target in the

past... There must be based on some reality... Which was met. We're now

pushing ourselves even further, as you would expect us to do. This is

not about introducing the UK Welfare reform. That is separate

debate that an executive Assembly They need to contribute to society

and have opportunities. I want to bring you in here. The last

programme for Government had 90,000 to move in to skills and therefore

I think it's only right that we move ahead in relation to this

economic strategy and programme for Government to 114, but can I say,

basil mentioned we needed to make sure we moved ahead and whatever we

did had an implication across the piece. Look at what we are doing

into putting double glazing into every executive housing house.

That's construction work and the other benefit is energy efficiency

and making sure the people can reap the benefit and that is joined-up

Government and I welcome that. I very much think that there is more

we can do in that realm. Throughout the programme for Government it

talks about tackling inequality and it not only talks about it, but

sets a programme which should do that. We talk about assisting those

communities that have been left behind for generations. But the

reality is that we as an executive have limited economic leaders to

work with and I think the trade union leadership may not recognise

it. They need to work with us to assist us to get the leavers that

we require. We have the opportunity as an executive five weeks ago not

to impose pension increases on 44,000 people, who are part of that,

but the executive in Northern Ireland decided to do that and the

Scottish Executive has decided against it. Secondly, we have

challenging targets to get people back into work, but it's very, very

strong view when we sign up to move 114,000 people out of benefit into

work we are signing up to the Tory manifesto. From benefits into

training, which is much different from benefits into work. Briefly,

if you can. The British Government is taking 300 million out of the

executive budget in relation to pensions. I too opposed it, but

until there is an alternative then opposition won't help. You said no

John Bunyan's moral tale, The Life and Death of Mr Badman, isn't much

read now, but it remains a useful title for a preacher, of the kind

that once gripped this place in its merciless throttle. Ian Paisley,

retiring at last from ministry, has often used Bunyan's character to

reinforce his cry of "you're doomed unless you be saved". Many of his

cowed flock followed him into the power-sharing he'd always painted

as a false paradise of dupes and rogues. So maybe late

respectability has begun to mist over his own history. Long before

turning into Mr Kindly, Ian Paisley sharpened his tongue in the service

of his fearsome God. He roared at street corners, in the halls of

Stormont, Westminster, Strasbourg and his pulpit. Thanks to his

church's nifty website you can listen to sermons back to the

1960's, when the idle curious, lost for entertainment, used to turn up

in the Ulster Hall to be guldered at among the pious. He used Mr

Badman recently, the tale of the man headed straight for hell from

the outset, and half a century ago, to bad-mouth ecumenical clerics and

any politician who urged reform of unionist Ulster. In a combustible

age, Ian Paisley was always on hand to make things worse. There were

sermons that didn't just chill the blood, but set it boiling. The

website doesn't foreground those. He's the Reverend Right Honourable

Lord Bannside now, full of years, laden with honour he gives nobody

else. But he made his name as a voice of hate. In the 60s, he

howled down Terence O'Neill, the would-be liberal Stormont Prime

Minister, for conceding civil rights. He was still at it when

Brian Faulkner was thrown by his horse outside a free presbyterian's

house - "the man that said that I was a doctor of demons, the mills

of God grind slow but they grind exceeding small." And when Margaret

Thatcher signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement he prayed - "Oh, God, in

wrath, take vengeance upon this wicked, treacherous, lying woman".

He howled his congregations into dread and made their flesh creep by

telling them church-going couldn't save them. In June 1968, he told

them, "If you died now upon that seat, God would say you were a

wicked person." The slightest criticism has always outraged him,

but in his pulpit he trashed reputations. In that sermon 43

years ago he used the Life and Death of Mr Badman to pillory a

recently dead publican. He named a home-place, he described a funeral.

In his gilded late run, there's scant enough mention of the damage

he did. And now he's stepping down from ministry, or so he told his

congregation last Sunday, to write his memoirs. They'll make some

laugh, he says, and others blush. Ian Paisley does not blush, but

there will be none of the speeches or the sermons that made those he

could not cow see him as Mr Badman. The thoughts of fin concon. --

Fionnuala O'Connor. In this month of remembrance we meet a DUP mla

who got involved in poll tibgdz following the death of her husband

in action in Afghanistan. -- politics, following the death of

her husband in action in Afghanistan. I am an army wife and

now a widow and the mother of two gorgeous girls. The catalyst was

the death of my husband in August 2009. When you are informed of your

husband's death, within 24 hours you are told that his wages have

been stopped and if they don't live to midday we get half a day's wages.

You go through the funeral and while the regiment support is

extraordinary and they are there, the support from the MoD just isn't

there and things like finances, when you have no wages coming in is

a huge and important issue. My husband was serving and he had

extraordinary heavy casualties. I was seeing very young widows in

desperate need and I thought I've been an army wife for 22 years and

I know the system and maybe now is the time I need to speak up,

because I was amazed that no-one had raised the issues before. My

local MP is Jeffrey Donaldson and at Mark's funeral there were lots

of MPs and MLAs and the Secretary of State turned up and a few days

after the own one who came to knock on my door to see if they could

help was Jeffrey Donaldson. He said we could speak to people who could

do something about this and change it for others. I don't believe we

will every completely solve all the problems in Afghanistan and I don't

even know if it's our job to try to sort out all their problems, but I

know while the guys and women are out there, it's up to us to support

them. When I returned back home to Northern Ireland, after spending 17

years in Germany and in England, I looked at the political scene and I

wondered who to vote for. I looked at all the parties carefully and

what they were offering and I contacted the DUP and I have seen

how Peter Robinson was trying to move the party forward into a new

Northern Ireland. We spent five weeks before the election

canvassing and a lot of it in our area was education. Education is

huge for the transfer test and this school getting sixth form status

and the rebuilding of new schools, it's very important to the people

in this area. A success for me would be the education system being

child-led, lots of people still want a transfer test and children

shouldn't be penalised because of academic, but we need to look at

the best way forward and people in Northern Ireland still want the

grammar schools and they still have some very, very good high schools,

as we do in my local constituency here. We just need to see how we

can sort out the academic transfer test. Where it meets the needs of

the children. For me to get that done, and for the party to achieve

that within four years, would be a resounding success, but I'm a

realist and I know we need to look for compromise, but we must not

compromise the children. Brenda Hale there. The BBC's viewers and

listeners, broadcasters and politicians have been mourning the

passing of Sean Crummey. He was the voice of the folks on the hill

which poked ridicule at life in Stormont, but also featured for a

while on Hearts and Minds, when he gave us a look watt what was going

on behind the pictures in the news headlines. We are here today for

serious business. We take our responsibilities very seriously. We

are aware of course of the criticism that has come our way,

criticism that we are always joking and carrying on, but those days are

gone. Yes, the Chuckle Brothers are no more. We are important

politicians and in future we will be showing the gravitas appropriate

to our post as first and Deputy First Minister. Well, I have to say

I'm very proud of these two gentleman. They have promised me

that they will no longer engage in silly school-boy behaviour and -

LAUGHTER Oh, good grief. How many chairs

were you looking to buy, Gordon? Probably 12 at the outset, but I

might take the whole lot if you give me a good price. Look, I could

throw in the table maybe as well, but I've other people interested.

That table is exactly what I've been looking for. Look at the

craftsmanship. Ian, let's pretend we are still friends because there

are some big-wigs here, OK? I'll try, but it's very difficult.

one opposite me is Martin McGuinness and the one opposite you

is Ian Paisley. Cheers, Bertie. I need a word. What is it? I don't

know you dad, I know of you. Let's go and talk to these people. Do you

want a hand, big pan? No, I do not. If I can negotiate with you people,

I can negotiate some steps! LAUGHTER

Very good. Shall I talk first? I'll do the talking, you're a sight.

There is no malice here. Right, I wish to object in the strongest

possible terms to the dress code being adopted by the Deputy First

Minister. Who is going to take him seriously dressed like that? Well,

I believe that this sort of casual attire can actually be very helpful

in creating a more relaxed atmosphere at executive level. If

he objects to the colour of the tank hp top, I'm prepared to be

flexible. -- tank-top, I'm prepared to be flexible. Is that acceptable?

No, you are a fashion disaster. say a fond fair well to a man of

genuine talent, always a pleasure to work with. We'll be back next

week. I hope you'll join us. Goodbye. I need a really good

discuss about politics. My wife says she likes a man to be

sensitive, so she must love Peter Robinson, you only have to mention

prison without getting the words Her Majesty's in front of it, he'll

throw a feet. Hundreds of shops and pubs are closing, but as long as