20/10/2011 Hearts and Minds

Welcome to the programme. This week, Tom Elliott prepares to it --

prepares for his second party conference as UUP leader.

From Wolverhampton to Belfast, we'd borrow back the art of the Troubles.

The cut-and-thrust, or lack of it, in the Assembly debates. What would

Socrates make it? And the University brain drain,

The Ulster Unionists gather for their annual conference this

weekend, cheerleading in chief is Party leader Tom Elliott, who joins

me now. It has not been a hugely successful years since your last

conference. You lost ground and the Assembly elections, you lost a

minister, the electorate did not want to hear what you say. Wed unit

optimism? A we need to put the history in

some perspective. If you look at the Assembly elections, we went out

with 16 members and we came back with 16. But in 2007 you had a team.

Yes, but we went down to 16 and kept them. I would have liked to

have done better, but the fact is we had a significant building block.

I was only in place a few months before the elections. We have a

significant building block, and we have brought forward great policies.

The Ulster Unionist policy were the first to bring out many things,

long before the Northern Ireland Executive did. So we want to be

leaders, and we only have one executive place, but they must look

about -- look at what we have done already. We have stopped town-

centre car parking charges that were then to be brought in by Sinn

Fein. Don't forget, at the last minister could not put money aside

for the Londonderry to Colraine rail link. Hopefully that will be a

huge benefit. You talk in the party political

broadcasts about a vision for Northern Ireland led by the UUP.

The trouble is, no one really knows what that is.

We have been quite clear. Our vision is to ensure we have a

society for everyone in Northern Ireland, to ensure we have a

society that can respect each other's traditions and views and

values, and live together. Not to live separately, live together and

peacefully together. That is television, but we need policies to

bring that about. We would like to see a single educational authority

that does not have the individual sectors within education, we can

bring them all together and work together. That is only a sample.

You talk about wanting to having a Unionist party that is defined by

pluralism and equality. The DUP a health minister refused to lift the

ban on homosexuals blood transfusions in Northern Ireland.

One of your MPs said that was irrational prejudice. Who was

right? We need to look at experience. We

cannot trust to know what is happening in the rest of the UK,

and I would have thought that the tests that you're undergoing, I am

a blood donor, and wants to give those tests, you can find it there

is anything in the blood which cannot be used for other people. So

I do not see any reason that you cannot use that blood, for

providing it has been tested before and.

To argue Assembly members went to a recent launch by the culture

minister to depoliticise Irish and to make people try to be fluent in

Irish by 2015. You did not go. Would you go?'s I feel the Irish

language has been politicised. I think it is wrong that the Sinn

Fein leadership are leading this. There is no harm in our leaders

going in to see what is happening to see if there is any merit in it.

But I must say, in all probability, how will you depoliticise it if

political leaders are pushing it? Pushing learned -- presumably

because they will introduce the initiatives. The you can't have it

every way. If we want to depoliticise it, they

should take a back seat on it. They are tried to press their policy on

everyone else, and that is not the right thing to do.

Would you like to learn Irish? I do not know, because it is not

known throughout the world. I would prefer to be fluent in French or

German. You belong to an organisation which

was to discipline you for abandoning -- attending a funeral a

been murdered Catholic police officer. Do you think is right?

I hope the outcome will be that there is no case to answer for me.

A murder police officer who went to the funeral of a murder police

officer, that is the situation. there is an investigation. Is that

erasable thing to do? You want plurality and equality.

You must put it in context. The Orange Order have a right to

investigate, they have a right to their internal affairs. They have a

right to their internal mechanisms, but let's not forget how this came

about. It came about because people in this society murdered a police

officer. I feel I was right to support that family and the

community, I was right to support law and order, and I will not

apologise for that. I will not give in to those people who are

determined to actually bring havoc and murder people out in our

society. You said that you were not a

political dinosaur. Some people say this is the very essence of being a

dinosaur, in terms of an organisation. Do you think that

should do something about that will?

I think we will have no case to answer. That is not the question.

No, but I think this will clarify the situation. You think it will

all change? For I think you'll have clarity of the Rules. For I am not

sure what that means. If I think it will clarify it. We talked about

the Assembly elections, in the bra up to those elections, there was a

lot of talk about the cough up at Stormont between the DUP and Sinn

Fein. The electorate did not listen. It seems language has changed in

the months after the election. Dear except that the electorate did not

want to hear you wintering any more, and actually quite liked the way it

is run? -- whingeing any more. There are more and more people

every election who won not voting, which is a worrying development.

But I think what a lot of people voted for was to make sure that the

First Minister stayed the shame -- stay the same, and they were not

supporting the approach that many believed was there, they were

voting to keep the other side out of government. We can't be sure.

You cannot say with any certainty that that is true. You could

equally say they voted for the other parties because they did not

like the whingeing on of the UUP. Are things have been quick enough?

I Say No. For I think things are not progressing quick enough. The

vast majority of the public believe that. Many of the public believe

they are being disenfranchised because things are progressing not

quickly enough, especially in the economic climate where there are

job losses and economic difficulties. If people just want

to see things moving quickly. We suggested back before March that

there should be a programme for government before the budget was

set. Only now are we getting a draft. It is quite clear that

things are not happening quickly enough.

You said it was important that the Assembly is seen to be working

together, that it is not just enough to have seen to have

survived the first recession. What must the Assembly achieve in his

coming session? And how would you help achieve it?

We must achieve things that will make a difference to the people,

particularly in education. We must ensure we break this deadlock

imposed primary education, we get over the transfer problem, we get a

big problem whereby some children... There is no sign of it. There is no

sign of evangelism. You have submitted papers, but there is no

sight of a resolution. I am telling you what I believe we should do. We

also have a situation in education whereby young children leave school

without basic qualifications in reading and writing. That has got

UN. We have got to ensure we have a single educational authority, we do

not need individual authorities costing the community a fortune. We

must bring opportunities to businesses, and we differ on the

corporation tax issue, but we must bring those types of opportunities

to society here to allow businesses to perform. Those are the things we

need to do. How security leadership? You said

you wanted a party with no factions and cliques. We hear rumours that

there are people who would like to see you fond out to Europe, and

still bring in a younger figurehead. Or can you say about that?

You are hearing things I am not. There is nobody knocking on my door

to try and remove May. I have always said, if the party do not

want a, I will not be their leader, libel Stepaside. I will not fight

that issue. But the party do want a, I have a 70% mandate. People have

got behind me. Are there is nobody knocking on my door.

It says something about the quality of debate at Stormont that the only

way it is halfway gripping is when there is a row. Recently, the

SDLP's Dominic Bradley was meandering piece lay -- peace plea

for a question on Irish when the Deputy Speaker intervened and asked

him to get on with the question and drizzly to -- translated. When he

protested, he was told to sit down. It was very heavy handed and

embarrassing to watch. Further problems ensued, and it all ended

up with the Speaker temporarily withdrawing his speaking rights for

what he called his vicious assault. The vicious assault? That is the

kind of language you use when bones are broken, not operate -- a very

minor verbal stuff will. - Chris guffaw. The EC is to be adopting a

coat that he should adopt a pompous tone at all times, inventing his

fury on anything approaching dissent. It was the same last month

when William Hay silence Jim Allister for a week after he asked

Peter Robinson what he had said to me at Martin McGuinness about

finding a new job. Contrast the stodgy, moribund themes at the Nora

but that from Northern Ireland Assembly with the lively culture of

debate at Westminster. The atmosphere in the Commons is loud

and rumbustious and theatrical. The yet a similarly full-throated

debate rarely gets going in the Assembly, because it is so tightly

circumscribed. There appears to be a fear that things would get out of

hand. Of course, there is always going to be a need for structure

and protocol, but it is a sign of a mature, confident democracy that

the Speaker had us is a flexible, even-handed way. Back in 2000, when

David Trimble said that Sinn Fein members needed to be house-trained

the Cup before they could be proper Democrats, there was a huge outcry

at his choice of words. That phrase made a return to the Assembly just

last week, when Peter Robinson said that he hoped Jim Allister was now

house-trained. Strangely enough, the Speaker did not pull the First

Minister are for that remark. It gives the impression there is one

rule for the Sinn Fein and DUP Robin blog and another for everyone

else. -- ruling bloc. Jim Allister performs an important that were

important role in the Assembly. He asks annoying questions. I think of

him as a kind of latter-day Socrates, only more angry and

without a beard. The Athenian philosopher said his poll setting

was like a large horse, it is not trying to be lazy, but he was the

big stinging fly it needing to get it going. I will never cease to

settle here, there or everywhere, until I have proved everyone of you

wrong. Jim is our own parliamentary wasp. Sadly, it will take a swarm

to change the can pop -- culture of complacency at Stormont.

The only permanent exhibition of the art that came out of the

Troubles is found in Wolverhampton. For the next couple of months, you

will be able to see some of that in Belfast, including one

controversial piece that brought people onto the streets in protest

in the 1970s. But will we ever have More than 30 years after being

banned in Northern Ireland, this picture hangs on the warmth of a

gallery in Belfast for all to see. -- the wall. It was due to be

exhibited in 1978, but the museum Porter's refused to hang it.

We have taken the line here that there are some things that are

offensive, and we did not want to go ahead with it. In this

particular case, it is so obscene that we had to take a stand.

The authorities backed them up, and there were demonstrations.

Things like this would never happen in England.

Today, the creator, is a renowned artist, a professor of art in

California. But he remembers the 1970s, when he wanted to highlight

what he saw as the erosion of civil The anger that he must have felt

was how I felt about Bloody Sunday. I was angry about introduction of

various legislation because of the situation with Northern Ireland

which was eroding civil liberties in the UK. It was not just English

artists experiencing censorship in Northern Ireland. On one occasion I

had a couple of paintings removed from the gallery. Because the

customer was a local politician that objected to the content of a

couple of my paintings. I was young and green at the time and accepted

the fact that they were taken out of the exhibition instead of being

angry. This artist lives in North Belfast. I remember I was painting

a landscape and at the same time I was hearing gunshots literally from

across the road. I thought, this is madness. I am doing painting of

landscapes when this madness is going on. This exhibition is in

Belfast until December but many of the art works inspired by the

conflict are not in Northern Ireland and their is a d one place

to see those that are still hair. This is a curator's Museum free to

collect work that might be viewed as contentious. The engaged and

inspiring work which reflected the horror of war and the piece of work

went to other places. This a functions I think in the absence of

a permanent collection on public display of this type of work. This

is the 8th in the series. We have been doing this in a boy did. It is

not that we do not have the works. -- vacuum. But it is really

essential. It is an issue the Arts Council has tried to address by

building a digital archive of political art. I think institutions

did feel repressed and possibly censored. Obviously being the Arts

Council, I think we had a little bit more liberty. Certainly, we did

collect some work of a political nature of crew art collections. But

maybe not as much as we could have done. -- through art collections.

We ask the Culture Minister for her opinion. She said she was committed

to continuing to support the arts to continuing to support the arts

and that they could provide people with a sense of history and place,

bring communities together and understand the past but she did not

understand the past but she did not want to be interviewed. But we

cannot reveal the political art work collected by the Arts Council

with public money is being gifted to the Ulster Museum. It is about

works so that are directly relevant to be trouble. The majority are

from Northern Irish artists. All of these artists would be renowned for

their response to the Troubles in different ways. The newly

refurbished Ulster Museum has an exhibition already about the

Troubles but does that mean Northern Ireland can finally have

its own permanent collection of political art? We are certainly

still in the process of the handover. We have not acquired the

works in the collection yet. We are still in that process and I could

not give you a definite timescale but we are looking for future

programming about how we integrate not just a collection here at the

Museum but how we can have the collection as an outrage collection

as well. Then it can go out to other places as well. Chances to

see political art like this remain occasional but there is not any

doubt that anger at previous censorship has affected the

establishment. Let people see it and it they are going to be gifted

to the museum, that is a disgrace. They are treating Northern Ireland

like it is full of adults that do not need to be told what to think.

They can come and see it and it stayed like it or do not like it

Our universities affected by... We have got figures showing

Protestants are outnumbered by Catholics, particularly at Ulster

and adds the McGee campers, just 20 % are Protestant. But is this the

true picture? The University of Ulster says it is a sad reflection

that the Community should be a matter for public comment. Why is

it important? The legislation is for a reason and as long as it

makes the provision that the entitlement is there, then it's the

monitoring showed the rebels to what it does we would have an

outcry and nobody would suggest it was sectarian or inappropriate to

have this information to. But we have got an alarming picture with

universities in general. Ulster University in particular. Maybe

somebody can understand the Midi situation because of all of that.

But nobody can say that about the other campers. The startling

figures for me were that it was almost too-one in Catholic against

Protestant. Are you saying it is sectarian, the University? It has

to address a problem. It up Disley is not recruiting adequately from

the control sector. -- it is obviously not recruiting. It is

doing very well in attracting Republic of Ireland students but

other universities are virtually... Just five times more and they are

doing very well with the Republic of Ireland but they are not doing

very well elsewhere. Why is that? We need to address that. You are

not here to talk about the University of Ulster but is there

an issue here? Is only monitors people stay in... Much of the

information is missing. We have got an important point. The information

is about the community and the Catholic community. The majority of

students at have not studied religion went to what we call

Protestant schools. After that we will find that the share is greater

than the information presented. The other issue is that we take

students with regard to the quality of the grades. The university

admissions service will stop that is a law and --. That is a law and

a directed. When they have the qualifications and they are better

than others they must have a place. It is more complicated than what

has been said. When we checked this information, we are on a par with

the religious turnover. It is complicated because not enough

children are coming out of the controlled Protestant sector with

qualifications. That is the problem. Not recruitment? He has got to

spend to get to this point. -- have political spinning. That is a false

premise, what he has said. The figures speak for themselves. Back

in 2008, the committee, before I was part of the committee, we look

at an aspect of this. A research students from Northern Ireland

universities. 47 % of Catholic students at the University said at

their school they had been engaged with by one or other of the

universities. 20 % of the Protestant students said they were

engaged by the local universities. They have got a recruitment deficit.

I am saying to Ulster that they must face up to that and examine

why they have got that deficit. Have we got other actors? Have we

got a prevalence of other problems? -- other factors? But we have got

some evidence that Protestant students elsewhere in the UK did

not report that they have got a barrier studying here. They have

got reasons for not studying in Northern Ireland. If we look at the

survey, we have got just 90 more Catholics than Protestants. We have

got an idea of an exodus. That people are being forced to study

elsewhere. We have got a parity between the two. One thing is that

they Mudgley come from -- mostly come from affluent backgrounds.

People go outside and elsewhere. It is very important to make the point

that we have got rules and regulations. At Queen's University,

I will challenge what has been said. We have got significant out reach.

We are brought people to the university had gone into schools

that we do not usually recruit from. We are spending �10 million per

year on bursaries and 42 % of students gain a bursaries. We are

very active and aware of the situation. We have talked about the

failure of the young people in the controlled sector. We are the

people promoting and encouraging... Maybe that is why the Queen's

figures are better than Ulster's. But queens used to have a definite

problem in the days when the student union where Gaelic in

presentation and steel parties stepped in... -- and people stepped

in. I have seen figures that Cath legs that have not -- Catholics but

have not come from grammar schools are twice as likely as others. Is

that likely? That is where I agree entirely with Peter. One problem is

a failure at out but particularly from the Protestant working class.

They are not getting the qualifications and they cannot be

taught. This has not been addressed and it must be addressed. It these

figures contribute to that it is another positive reason why they

should be public. I want upload their ability from both communities

will stop -- upward mobility. about us have we got on that

community? We have got to look at the people that have exposed desert.

We are the researchers constantly talking about the lack of

representation to gain qualifications. We have looked at

32 % of people getting five GCSEs. Half as many in the Catholic sector

got a five GCSEs. We are trying to solve the problem. What can the

Assembly do about this? We have looked at this under the leadership

of Sinn Fein but they have done nothing. But what can be done?