21/06/2012 Hearts and Minds


21/06/2012

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Hello, and welcome to the programme. That does deep title sequence

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introduced the first Hearts And Minds in 1986. -- 1986. Tonight is

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the last edition of the programme, and we will indulge ourselves with

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a look back at over 16 years of intellectual debate. Let them go

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and boil their heads. So, let's look forward with our final panel

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of guests. We asked Sinn Fein to take part in the final discussion

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but then withdrew their interviewees.

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Nigel Dodds, there are allegations flying around at the moment of Ward

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rigging, discrimination in employment and in your own minister

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that term gerrymandering has reared its head again, in opening up new

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housing developments to loyalist areas that were not initially

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involved. Have we moved forward? I think over 16 years we have moved

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considerably far reform would over where Northern Ireland used to be.

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I remember in these programmes way back them do discussion was about

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the violence and killings and the decommission ing process and people

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supporting this police and all that. -- the police. When you consider

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the progress it is incredible. is it enough? Sometimes it feels

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like back to the future. These words like discrimination and

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gerrymandering are still around. I don't believe that we have gone

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back. I think the one thing we are committed to as a party and have

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been committed throughout is that everyone must be equally subject to

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the law and equally subject to the law. We had this duality where

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people could commit themselves to the democratic process but still be

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tied to buy list. We made a commitment as the DUP that that

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would not happen. It is not easy to have a coalition Government. As we

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have seen in London and in Scotland and Wales and elsewhere. The fact

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of the matter is, we are moving forward as a society in the

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political process. We will have to confront the issues that we face.

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For instant, we had a four Party agreement in Belfast, and I was

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party to that. That was an incredible step forward, to

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actually get an agreement on the shared space in one of the most

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contentious areas of north Belfast. Your party was at the first

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photocall, now they are talking about Colin indoor lawyers.

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We will, Nigel said about shared space and about housing on the

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basis of objective need, and that is not what we have seen in terms

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of the plans for the 27 acres site. It seems to me from glancing at it

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there are more places for car parking but there are homes for the

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2,000 people desperately in need of a home. We have seen how the

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minister, Nelson McCausland, we have learned how he has changed the

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housing plans for parts of Belfast. That is a worry in itself. We still

:03:45.:03:52.

have no agreement around assured education should look. We have

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heard plenty of warm words, but very little action. -- shared

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education. We have heard about pigs flying

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before power sharing, vote-rigging in Craigavon, where is the

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progress? We will, I think that overall the

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progress is in a sticky patch at the moment. -- well, I think. I

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think we will move forward. There is obviously tensions in certain

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areas, but there is a future for Northern Ireland, it is a shared

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future. I think the reality will come through that and I'd agree

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with Nigel that when we look back we have made considerable progress.

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I think there is more to do. There is a lot of black -- back-slapping

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in that, haven't we done well? A lot of people think it is stark and

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not going anywhere very fast. Well, I think that sometimes the

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people do think -- do need to be reminded that we have come a long

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way. People tend to dismiss the past, but it was not easy and

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people have done a good job. If it was easy we would have done it by

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now. There is real progress, there is more progress to be made that

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will require political leadership. What do you do with people who are

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seeing pigs will fly before the sheer power? What do you do in

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places where one party tops the poll but does not get the position

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because the other parties conspire against them? Well, if everything

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was homogeneous, if everything happened at coding to plan, --

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according to plan, life would be pretty boring. We have to realise,

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individually, this is the way forward. My party will take action

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against people who do not understand the political reality.

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We have done that with people in the past, we will do it again. You

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have to move forward and accept this is the political reality,

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there is no alternative. Let me just to bring in an up low,

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:06:09.:06:10.

because your party has left discussions about the shared future.

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-- Anna Lo. By a, we don't see it working, introducing an acceptable

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strategy. Nigel Dodds is saying this, are

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they just talking out of the side of their mouths?

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I think there is another issue to this. There is a strategy called

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the racial equality strategy, which was shelved at the shame time as

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they shared future. That has not been revised. There has been a

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vacuum of community relations, not just between the two major

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communities, but also in bringing other ethnic minority communities

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to integrate into Northern Ireland. That is something we need to do. We

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have not been ambitious enough. We're still very much stuck in the

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orange and green issues. On the ground, I think, particularly young

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people, they don't particularly want to be associated with either

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orange or green or nationalists or Unionism? -- or Unionism. They see

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themselves as Northern Irish. It's use of cohesion 0.2 issues

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where we need to make more progress. But take another issue like

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policing and justice. -- issues of cohesion point to issues. There

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were all sorts of crazies and we cracked and at one. -- all sorts of

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crisis. Then be solved this arrangement without any crisis,

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without politicians coming in to solve problems. Politicians in

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Northern Ireland did that. Yes, there are issues and there that

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needs to be discussed and taken forward, but everyone said policing

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and justice could never be solved. Well, it is solved now.

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The does all very well saying it has solved, but the point is let's

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not focus relentlessly on negativity. We need some time to

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celebrate what has been done without being complacent about what

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needs to be done. Sinn Fein are not here to talk about things, that is

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their choice, but Conor Murphy stands accused of religious

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discrimination in appointing jobs when he was at the Department of

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Regional Development. How serious is that? He denies it, of course,

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but how serious do you think it is? It is a serious matter, there is no

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doubt about it. The SDLP stood for equality from its very foundation.

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Why there has to be attitudinal changes across society, what we saw

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in the past some changes only came about because there was a

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legislative framework that insured people had to comply with it, and

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that has influenced how society has changed substantially over the last

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30 years. Equality is still something we must work at and be

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vigilant over, and it does not matter who anyone is within a our

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society, they all must add here to the same principles. That is what

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you see and what everyone says, but we still have allegations about

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discrimination and gerrymandering in housing, Basil McCrae, at the

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dis -- perception of what you are all saying and what is happening is

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widely divergent. The no, it is appalling.

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The issues of Conor Murphy, the discussions of other parts of the

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Housing Executive, but part of that is a failure to communicate.

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Actually, when people understand, certainly in north Belfast, there

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are difficult issues that need to be resolved, and when you look at

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the complexities of it, perhaps you have to treat the electorate with

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more respect and explain to them why and how you did things. I think

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there is a problem in the process, simply turning up for afforded

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rough and saying no one can answer any questions, I don't think that

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is right. I have heard comments from the SDLP

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and the Unionists, both those representatives agreed with the

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process in substance. The point is, we are trying to make progress...

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I was Minister for a number of years, and that was a normal

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procedure. The point is, we are sitting down as elected

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representatives across parties working on issues. Communities are

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doing that. I paid tribute to the hundreds of people working on both

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sides of the community in north Belfast looking forward to the

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parades. There has been tremendous work done by then a fast parades

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for them. Going on, silently, quietly, without any TV cameras or

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anything else. I pay tribute to all that work. When the his achievement

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and people moving forward that should be celebrated. That is the

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future and I am committed to that, and brother have -- than having

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commentary from people who have glanced at issues, let -- my view

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is let's get on with the substance...

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Nelson McCausland, after the plan for development is agreed, for

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those four areas which are nowhere near the top of the list of housing

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need, then four loyalist areas get new housing.

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Yes, Alastair Attwood was against that masterplan. In terms of Nelson

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McCausland, he has made it very clear that housing is also an

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astute in terms of regeneration. Housing plays a very important part

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in that. In terms of Protestant areas in loyalist areas that have

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been berated and run-down we're determined to have those

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regenerated as we are determined to regenerate the Catholic side. I was

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in a meeting in the year 2,000 regenerating both sides, but the

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regeneration is for the loyalist places, and that includes housing,

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and we will not be in a place where loyalists and Unionists are denied

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their share of housing. By the criteria, they do not need

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them as much as other areas. Under the regeneration criteria,

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housing is part of the regeneration criteria, just as other issues are

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part of it come and housing cannot and will not be denied to the

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loyalist and Unionist people of north Belfast.

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Where is there no more of them and us of Peter Robinson? What is it? -

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- where is it? One of the things that has gone

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recently is the lack of interest in politics, whose fault in that?

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I think we have not been showing enough leadership. We're still

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stuck in the past. We need to be looking outside of orange and green

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issues, flags and all the things people are fed up with... And but

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that is one of the bigger issues. Your party has voted to support the

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flying of the armed services flag at Belfast City Hall.

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I think it is politicians who are worked up about it. If you ask

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people on the ground, people do not the politicians are out of touch

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with the electorate? Very much so. We have a lot of environmental

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issues. We have not really looked at them. We're totally behind the

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rest of the UK in environmental protection and enhancement of our

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environment. Looking through the environment committee Madine Bill,

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it is really only a shadow of the Scottish Marine bill. -- Marine

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bill. Our politicians lost touch with the

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electorate here or not? -- have politicians.

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I think they're not brave enough. Some years ago we had big issues

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and had to wait and communicate with people and I think that

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happened. Now people are very risk- averse and I don't think that is

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real leadership. Politicians have to tackle some contentious issues

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head on and explain to people this is the way forward, and if you

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agree with me vote for me. What is the first thing you would

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fix? A education, that has to be fixed.

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And what sense? We need to have a good resolution

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to the whole selection debate and we need to know where our children

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will be and how they will be educated. We also need to know what

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jobs they will be for young people and had we will look after the old

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and sick in the future. Get incorporation taxed down and

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creating jobs for our people. Also reducing the size of the

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Assembly and bureaucracy in politics.

:14:54.:15:04.
:15:04.:15:07.

Ball has not lost, thank you very People put their faith in two

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assumptions. One was that the politics we have were in the hearts

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and minds of the people. That the ban was on the streets emerged not

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just out of those are planted bombs, but of us all and the other

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assumption was that hearts and minds, without that, there was

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nothing to talk about. Everything, since then, has changed. The

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politics of deadlocked give way to the politics of the peace process.

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But sometimes seemed just as deadlocked as the old system but

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with fewer people getting killed. But year after year, we saw the

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politicians in the hearts and minds studio. And how many times that you

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watch those debates and think they were like a wind-up dolls?

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Comparing the hearts and minds of people now with those then and it

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seems to be impossible to recover the intractable ideas of then. That

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is the old context of the history. With the quarrels of today, you

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would need excuses for that. Hearts and minds do change. One of the

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things that was the hardest of the truffle -- the Troubles was just

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too quickly the suspicion would dissipate, how vicious it had

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become, how long it would last. Our has respond differently. Far from

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being emotional about politics, people are cynical. We do sometimes

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despair of the cliches of the ministers, but it is not there. I

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believe Sammy Wilson, Alan Foster, Alex Attwood and Stephen Farry,

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most of them an essentially decent people and those among them who

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drove the conflict and survived to make politics still must know in

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their hearts and minds that the world of today is unlike anything

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be conceived of at the start. The political violence was initiated

:17:13.:17:18.

during the Cold War and for some, even explained by it. Ian Paisley

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did believe the Catholic church was behind the IRA. That Colonel

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Gaddafi aren't the IRA and that he hoped Alan make the European Cuba.

:17:28.:17:32.

South Africa armed loyalists in defence of apartheid. That was in

:17:32.:17:36.

the days when again and could go to jail for having sex. So much of

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that old passion seems stupid. Even recently revealed principles are

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shaken, like the idea that we're all better off with house prices

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still going up and up, which makes me wonder how many of their ideas

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that have currency now will see mad within a generation. Hearts and

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minds to change, and demonstrably, in the lifetime of this programme.

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It was all new. We counted them in and we counted them out. We have

:18:08.:18:13.

been through four re ministers, or should accept that is of State,

:18:13.:18:17.

three Yes preservers, for leaders of the Ulster Unionists and the

:18:17.:18:21.

SDLP, two DUP bosses, with only the Sinn Fein president sticking the

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course since we came on air in 1986. Julia Faulds has been looking back

:18:30.:18:34.

over a turbulent 16.5 years was on good evening it will come to the

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new forum for debate in this crucial period in Northern

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Ireland's Mr. It all started in 1996. Before long, the programme

:18:43.:18:46.

was breaking new ground, recording the first studio interview on

:18:47.:18:52.

British television of the Ulster Unionists and Sinn Fein. I told you

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Sinn Fein is totally committed to this, and what could be more

:18:59.:19:03.

unequivocal than that statement? but the IRA bombing of Canary Wharf

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changed the agenda and the interview was never broadcast.

:19:07.:19:12.

Whatever the big political story, hearts and minds was on it. They

:19:12.:19:19.

Anything you in the last 20 minutes? You have it in your and.

:19:19.:19:26.

have the feeling that comes in life, I am dying to leave, but I hate to

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go. Do you feel like Nelson Mandela? Will, I feel like John

:19:36.:19:46.
:19:46.:19:47.

Hume, and I think he feels like David Trimble. What we have to do

:19:48.:19:52.

is to produce sensible concrete proposals which can provide in the

:19:52.:19:56.

words of the agreement a new beginning for policing in Northern

:19:56.:20:01.

Ireland. He spent 18 months listening to these tableaux stories

:20:01.:20:08.

of lives destroyed and the damage wrought, and do you accept that you

:20:08.:20:13.

have some attached yourselves? You talk about the need, of having a

:20:13.:20:17.

need to heal the wounds inflicted by the actions of republicans, and

:20:17.:20:22.

part of that involves saying sorry, and that it was wrong. I was a

:20:22.:20:27.

member of the IRA. Do you expect me to stand up and say that I was

:20:27.:20:31.

wrong to join, to support it? We any victims would expect you to say

:20:31.:20:38.

that. Yes, but I am not going to do that. I will say that there were

:20:38.:20:42.

things that at the IRA done, which were wrong. At the heart of the

:20:42.:20:47.

programme have been interviews, striving to shed light. We should

:20:47.:20:54.

be receiving more or, out of the kitty of Europe than we have

:20:54.:21:01.

received an than we have paid in. would ask you not to tap the table,

:21:01.:21:08.

it interferes with our understanding of what you are

:21:08.:21:13.

saying. You're not accusing the Secretary of State and Tony Blair,

:21:13.:21:18.

of Bertie Aherne and others of being anti- Sinn Fein? I am quite

:21:18.:21:23.

able to speak for myself. People are not interested, Mr Thomson, in

:21:23.:21:28.

what you think. If I have the courage to come in and be

:21:28.:21:31.

questioned by you, I'd you put things to me, you should be big

:21:32.:21:35.

enough to answer my questions. not care a damn what you think. I

:21:35.:21:39.

am not speaking to you. I am speaking to the people watching the

:21:39.:21:45.

programme. You said I am giving you an accurate information, I am not.

:21:45.:21:49.

I want to have the right to answer questions rather than your you all

:21:49.:21:54.

the time. You're distorting the situation, Mr Thomson, entirely,

:21:54.:22:00.

and let me say, do not interrupt! That is Sinn Fein saying that.

:22:00.:22:07.

There is no point shouting at me. I will certainly look forward to your

:22:07.:22:12.

answer. For thank you. It would be a good idea before you ask you

:22:12.:22:15.

thought question I if I was allowed to answer the first one. Let them

:22:16.:22:22.

go and boil their heads. What you said, actually, can use say it

:22:22.:22:27.

again? If he stop interrupting and let me speak... I said that I am

:22:27.:22:31.

not a lawyer and I do not understand the precise nature of

:22:31.:22:37.

the legal challenge. I am asking you to take a position. You're

:22:37.:22:44.

actually interrupting me. several world-renowned figures have

:22:44.:22:51.

agreed to be interviewed. Whose version do you believe? I have been

:22:51.:22:55.

nine months out of office and diameter practice with these

:22:55.:23:01.

interviews. I'll get to that, thanks. Along the way we have found

:23:01.:23:06.

it interesting facts about politicians'. There must have been

:23:06.:23:11.

something psychological, someone large and warm and friendly in my

:23:11.:23:18.

past, I cannot remember. I probably have a couple of hundred sure it's,

:23:18.:23:23.

and 400 ties. And it means that you do not have to do the washing for

:23:23.:23:30.

long periods of time. In 1986 I had shingles. I was advised by the

:23:30.:23:34.

doctor to give up swimming and to try something like bird-watching.

:23:34.:23:39.

Which I have found, much to my surprise, I did take it up, I go

:23:39.:23:45.

with my binoculars and a watch pots, and I have been totally addicted. I

:23:45.:23:49.

loved bird-watching. I was a working-class cool that left school

:23:49.:23:54.

with no qualifications, I return to education, eventually came to

:23:54.:24:00.

Queen's College, achieved first class honours. We have heard about

:24:00.:24:07.

the images stuck in the minds of politicians. Will wanted a bit of

:24:07.:24:10.

the Berlin Wall, you would have thought it was moon rock, the way

:24:10.:24:15.

that we felt. Hearts and minds has given a platform to a range of

:24:15.:24:20.

different opinions. Through its if you ask me slot. Does opinions have

:24:20.:24:28.

been brought to life by the inimitable cartoons of Ian Knox.

:24:28.:24:35.

is also famine or a feast. You get a better idea if you have invested

:24:35.:24:39.

too much Labour in it to stop it. You cannot put it aside for

:24:39.:24:44.

tomorrow. Something else is bound to happen. The unique selling point

:24:44.:24:47.

of the programme has always been the sideways look it has taken at

:24:47.:24:53.

politics. We have invited Mr Paul Summers, a popular graphologist to

:24:53.:24:59.

tell us a little bit about them. Affirmation of the letters is quite

:24:59.:25:04.

small but there is a long T-bar formation on the world, Tim, which

:25:04.:25:11.

speaks of someone who will bide their time. I don't quite know what

:25:11.:25:16.

it is but they are hiding something. In their background, there is

:25:16.:25:20.

something hidden. I hiding something, a mature and scared of

:25:20.:25:25.

enlargement, step forward, Martin McGuinness. Gordon Brown has taken

:25:25.:25:29.

to telephoning voters who have been writing to him. Just imagine that

:25:29.:25:32.

happening here. You're halfway through EastEnders, when the

:25:32.:25:36.

telephone rings and it is Peter Robinson or Martin McGuinness on

:25:36.:25:42.

the line. It is a terrifying thought. Peter Robinson year, I

:25:42.:25:48.

have got more than 900 eyes, you know! What would you say to him?

:25:48.:25:56.

Hello, Peter. I would probably just hang up, actually! The politicians

:25:56.:26:01.

really want to know what voters think, maybe bringing them direct

:26:01.:26:07.

is probably not such a good idea. Hello? We are busy at the moment.

:26:07.:26:15.

Hang on a minute. Sorry, it is Gordon Brown. I will have to go.

:26:15.:26:20.

What am I going to do about this image problem? Hearts and minds

:26:20.:26:30.
:26:30.:26:37.

indulged in a spot of innocent leg- Several Assembly Members have been

:26:37.:26:41.

approached to feature in the calendar. Some have already agreed

:26:41.:26:47.

in principle. One was first approached I said, no way. I had to

:26:47.:26:56.

slim down. I am glad now that the secret is out. We propose to take

:26:56.:27:01.

some discreet naked shots of some of the Emilys. And I said, why not?

:27:01.:27:05.

Some of my party colleagues have been over-exposed in the media

:27:05.:27:12.

already but this would give them a bit of interest. And we cannot

:27:12.:27:18.

forget the taxi driver who was once even promoted. Are you Daniel

:27:18.:27:21.

O'Donnell's long-lost brother? is not an issue that will come

:27:21.:27:26.

before the Ulster Unionist Council. Are you the sexiest politician in

:27:26.:27:31.

Northern Ireland? I am not going to answer that question, because I

:27:31.:27:35.

think it would be difficult for me to answer that question without

:27:35.:27:42.

appearing immodest. Did he take his speech with him or did he leave

:27:42.:27:47.

your copy? People think that the key role of the SDLP has been in

:27:47.:27:51.

mediating, but we have been at the case of what we stand for and what

:27:51.:27:59.

we want to see. So, Marton, where do you get that horrible shock?

:27:59.:28:04.

Nelson Mandela was sitting in this year, would you be daring to ask

:28:04.:28:08.

him the date of question you asked me at the beginning? I think not.

:28:08.:28:15.

That shows the double-standards applied by many journalists.

:28:15.:28:20.

course, to make a programme like this requires a team of people,

:28:20.:28:26.

some of whom have moved on, most of whom you do not see on camera, in

:28:26.:28:30.

producer -- in particular, the producer, Marie Kelly, the power

:28:30.:28:36.

behind the throne. Tonight, we wish her well as the lights come down

:28:36.:28:41.

for the last time on hearts and minds. Judith, on the good old bad

:28:41.:28:45.

old days. It is been my privilege to sit in the seat for many years

:28:45.:28:50.

as momentous events have unfolded. I hope that you feel that we have

:28:50.:28:54.

cast some light along the way. You have had your lot, thank you for

:28:54.:29:04.
:29:04.:29:08.

watching, and goodbye. I have worked it out, you have done 3982

:29:08.:29:12.

interviews with politicians. Forget Kenneth Branagh, you deserve a

:29:12.:29:17.

knighthood. I am only slagging. Martin McGuinness would get a

:29:17.:29:23.

knighthood, before he would! I went to the doctor and said, I feel like

:29:23.:29:30.

a pair of curtains, and he said, tough, I am on strike. It is like

:29:30.:29:33.

Wayne Rooney going on strike over the price of shampoo. She did not

:29:33.:29:37.

think you would see if they win the deputy chief does the ball speaks

:29:37.:29:42.

better Iris and Gerry Adams, mind you, Jim Allison speaks better

:29:42.:29:47.

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