27/10/2011 Hearts and Minds


27/10/2011

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Hello and welcome to the programme coming up: the markets seem to like

:00:27.:00:31.

the latest plan to save the euro that is it time for the UK to bail

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out altogether? Does the supermarket giant think

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our politicians are idiots? No comment!

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And how many -- Mary McAleese's presidency has made far unlikely

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bedfellows. She has made it so easy for people like myself to make the

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transition from what we used to be to what we are and what we need to

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be forced to David Cameron play down this week's rebellion by 81

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Tories in the Commons boy on the referendum on Britain's membership

:01:02.:01:07.

of the year. But the current instability in the euro-zone is

:01:07.:01:17.

likely to keep this issue alive in the future. The DUP's MPs...

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At Jeffrey Donaldson, the Chancellor says solving the euro

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crisis would be the biggest boost for the British economy. In those

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circumstances, talk of a referendum is an irrelevant distraction?

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will cost us a huge amount of money to solve this problem that the

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Chancellor talks about. The agreement last night means doubling

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the amount of the bail-out. Chancellor says there will be no

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direct input from Britain on that. Then why is he worried? Why is this

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a crisis if this does not affect Britain? These are issues the

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people of the United Kingdom are entitled finally to have a say on.

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I have never, I have been an elected politician for a number of

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years, I have never been given the opportunity to vote on our

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membership and the nature of our membership on the EU. I have

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watched as other European nations have had referendums on variant

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aspects of their membership of the EU and yet the people of the UK

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have been denied that opportunity. Isn't the time of crisis not the

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time to do it? If they want to wait until the new year, fine but it is

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the principle we need to agree on. Many of the main parties in

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Westminster went to the people in the general election and promised

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they would get a referendum. They have broken that promise and at

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least there were 111 MPs prepared to stand up and say the British

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people should have a say. If the pro EU spokespersons are so

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confident in their argument, then why are they afraid of taking that

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case to the people? It is a long time since people were allowed a

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say. Why not have it again? This Parliament has passed legislation,

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which means if there is any European treaty which sees more

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power shift anywhere, there will be a referendum in the UK. That is

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already there in legislation. But let's remember what the

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circumstances are. There is a huge crisis going on in the euro-zone.

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It is clear that any new bail-out will not involve funding from the

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UK Exchequer, but the fact is the economic crisis in the euro-zone is

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causing problems not just in the wider European economy but in the

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world economy as well and it is affecting us in a very direct way.

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Even for some of the measures that have been taken in the southern

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countries are affecting firms here. I have firms in this constituency

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that are involved and as orders dried up because of shortage of

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public expenditure in other parts of Europe, that is affecting jobs

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and orders here. That is the same elsewhere. Just adding to all of

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the uncertainty of people taking the current difficulties as an

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excuse of having another go on the Euro-sceptic agenda 1 not create

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economic certainty we need. We will see there will be eventually and a

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referendum in the UK because there is an act that will make that

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happen. You mention the EU bill but doesn't it allow the government to

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decide when the circumstances, when transfer of power is affected, the

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government will decide whether that would trigger a referendum?

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just the government. People can argue about where a transparent --

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transfer of power takes place, we can probably see a referendum

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taking place whenever the deal is done to sort out whatever new

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fiscal structures are put in place in relation to the Euros said.

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You'll see the UK government using that as an opportunity to do

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something they can present as repatriating powers, if they do

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that, they will seek a referendum in that context as well. Do you

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think it is right they should be a referendum? Do you accept that

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notion? I have no objection in principle but it is important when

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a referendum takes place that people know the circumstances and

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people know the choices. The fact of a referendum itself does not

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create all sorts of economic risks. The problem is we have a proposal

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for a referendum that requires three options put in front of

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people. I am not sure in the current circumstances how well

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people will take to dealing with voting between three different

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options, particularly where they do not know where anybody else has

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agreed on some of those options. It is different to have a vote when

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you're talking about a treaty that has been agreed. You know then what

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the choices are, but to a Greek on options that no one else has voted

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for is a bit of a challenge for voters. Do you think a referendum

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should ask the question if Britain should pull out of the EU? Would

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you like to see a calling back of powers to the sovereign government

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of the United Kingdom? The motion put before Parliament this week

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offered three options. One is to remain in the EU unchanged. The

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second was to renegotiate the terms of our membership along the lines

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you have suggested and the third was to pull out of the European

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Union. People would be given a clear choice and actually, when you

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look at the polls, consistently they say that is what people want.

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They want to have a say on their future relationship with the

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European Union and I think this would have given the government a

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clear mandate to go and negotiate on whatever basis the referendum

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results suggests. We are in this economic crisis, so much of our

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trade is with the EU, that will not change whether or not we are part

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of the EU. In terms of economic arguments, it does not matter if we

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are in or out. The EU cost us money and jobs. The amount of regulation

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that is proposed by Brussels. One of the big issues of business is

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the amount of red tape that is handed down by Brussels. It gets in

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the wake of trade. If you take a country like Norway, it has a good

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trading relationship with the EU. It is not bother down with all the

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bureaucracy that comes with membership. There were powerful

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economic arguments for Britain to consider the option of leaving the

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EU as one possible way forward. When you look at the mess the EU is

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in at the moment, who could blame people for thinking that is an

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option. Which way would you vote, Mark? I would not vote we leave the

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EU. We will see a vote in a few years' time. That will see a

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rebalancing of competence of powers of functions between national

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parliaments and governments and the EU. I think that is sensible. Many

:08:35.:08:45.
:08:45.:08:51.

thought that would happen a few years ago, there does need to be a

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tidying up and a realignment on quite a number of issues and that

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is one of the lessons for Europe and the Eurocrats. Let's go back to

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what Geoffrey was talking about when he said the option in the

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referendum was for three different options. What with the referendum

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the side? Will it be first past the post? Maybe you do not have a

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majority for leaving the EU. Or what if the biggest number of

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people just voted for keeping the EU as it was, but even combined

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more people had voted to leave the EU? That is when you can count the

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uncertainty. You are better to have a referendum in circumstances when

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people know what has been agreed in Europe. When we are not dealing

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with the sort of rating crisis that is there in the euro-zone at the

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minute. The idea of compounding that uncertainty with opportunistic

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moves by some of the Right in Britain would be a nonsense and it

:09:58.:10:03.

would do damage not just to the euro-zone and there are, next, but

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do damage to the European economy and a vulnerable region like ours.

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At event David Cameron said it was about timing and that he'd is why

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he wanted to make it clear why we would not have a referendum.

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kind of referendum that I think Mark and David Cameron are talking

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about is different from the when I am talking about. We may well get a

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referendum on some kind of agreement that is concocted by the

:10:35.:10:40.

members of the EU. It for not asked the principal question - do you

:10:40.:10:44.

wish to remain in the European Union? It will say it are you in

:10:44.:10:48.

favour or against this new agreement that we have got? That is

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different from asking people on the principle of whether they want to

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be in the EU that is why we believe they should be given the option.

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It isn't called a "sound bite" for nothing! As every politician knows,

:11:03.:11:06.

that catchy turn of phrase, which sounded so good at the time, can

:11:06.:11:10.

turn round and bite you! And for Gerry Adams that old line about the

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IRA, "They haven't gone away, you know!" Has long outlived its value

:11:14.:11:18.

and become instead an inconvenient truth! For Republicans, things have

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moved on. The armed struggle is over, Sinn Fein is now a major

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political party with important jobs in government, and their leaders

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are making strenuous efforts to put that shadowy past behind them and

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move into the sunlit uplands of Armani suits, respectability and

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general acceptance. Gerry has reinvented himself as an

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international peace consultant and now delivers lectures on

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peacemaking. Yet for ambitious Republicans trying to make their

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way in this post 9/11 world, the IRA's violent history is both a

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hindrance and an embarrassment. Furthermore, it has also proven

:11:52.:11:57.

itself to be stubbornly resistant to every attempt to bury it! Like

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the un-dead in a Hammer Horror movie the IRA's bloody past keeps

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popping up! It popped up again this week with the death of Colonel

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Gaddafi - murderer, torturer, Lockerbie-bomber and supplier of

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arms to the IRA. To have the world, and especially America, reminded of

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the odious company they once kept, does nothing to promote the new

:12:15.:12:20.

image-conscious movement that is modern Republicanism. An image-

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conscious and modern movement, is not a term that naturally comes to

:12:23.:12:27.

mind when one thinks of the Orange Order. The decision by a Belfast

:12:27.:12:30.

Lodge to make a formal complaint against Unionist Party leader Tom

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Elliott and Regional Development Minister, Danny Kennedy for

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attending the funeral service of a murdered police officer, on the

:12:35.:12:37.

grounds that he was a Catholic, displays a lack of awareness

:12:37.:12:45.

bordering on the comatose. Both men were cleared at a later hearing but

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the Order must be aware of the damage already done to the Order's

:12:48.:12:52.

image and the ammunition it gives to those who accuse it of blatant

:12:52.:12:54.

anti-catholic bigotry! "Blatant bullying", is how Sammy Wilson

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describes Tesco's response to his proposed increase in business rates

:12:57.:13:02.

for larger stores. His plan would raise an extra �85,000 per store

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which he intends to pass on to smaller businesses in the form of a

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rates reduction. However, Tesco's have responded by hinting that a

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unilateral decision by the Northern Ireland Assembly to hike up their

:13:13.:13:15.

rates might jeopardise Tesco's plans for any future multi million

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pound developments in the Province - a veiled threat which has the

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Finance Minister hopping mad. "They must take us for idiots," says

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Sammy. Tesco are saying nothing! Good night.

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The thoughts of Lindsey and there. It is generally agreed that whoever

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tops the poll in today's presidential election will have a

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hard act to follow. Mary McAleese's two terms as president has seen

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remarkable shifts and the relationships on this island and

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there are many who would say she was the driver in that change. In

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this special report, Declan dawn assesses the McAleese years in Aras

:13:59.:14:05.

an Uachtarain. An unlikely cheering in an

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improbable place. Four an unexpected fan. Welcome to

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President Mary McAleese's 12th July garden party. This take on the sash

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by the National Symphony Orchestra was probably more polished than

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most versions played north of the border that day. But then this is a

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polished gathering. 14 years into her presidency, this annual

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mingling of the Irish establishment with Unionists, loyalists and

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British officials has become a central feature of Mary McAleese's

:14:41.:14:45.

mission to build bridges. But once upon a time, the very notion of

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bringing these people to this place on this day I would have been

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unthinkable. She has not only build bridges, she has persuaded people

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to walk across them. That is what is going on here. It is in fact an

:15:03.:15:08.

extraordinary achievement. It is the culmination of years of work.

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She sat at this store in the early days and said she would be a

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President of reconciliation and she has certainly shown that and she

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has certainly reached out before -- beyond any of us envisaged. At the

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very beginning, our first off of July, I remember people coming here

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who were so grateful that they did but never went across the border in

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their lives. Not knowing what to expect but willing to make that act

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and faith in us. Coming here and building up relationships that are

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now the most important friendships we have in our lives. None the

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verse and in less in terms of our politics but incredibly enriched by

:15:53.:15:58.

having each other to call France. When Mary McAleese set out to

:15:58.:16:02.

become the republic's aids present 14 years ago, have background was

:16:02.:16:08.

the biggest obstacle. She was a child of the Troubles. Her family

:16:08.:16:15.

home in north Belfast had been burnt out. In 1997 before the Good

:16:16.:16:20.

Friday Agreement some feared that as a northern nationalist she would

:16:20.:16:25.

be a tribal and divisive figure. My concern was that she would be a

:16:26.:16:34.

stalking horse for Sinn Fein. That she was she was a northern Catholic

:16:34.:16:38.

talking in the agreed terms of the northern Catholic. But it seemed

:16:38.:16:44.

from the very outset of her presidency, Mary McAleese set-up

:16:44.:16:48.

turning expectations on her head. Within days of being elected, she

:16:48.:16:58.
:16:58.:17:14.

to come in after President service. Those tones have gone, when she

:17:14.:17:18.

speaks from her heart, it is astonishing. She will convert

:17:18.:17:28.
:17:28.:17:30.

enemies. I think of myself as an admirer. Much of what she did was

:17:30.:17:33.

new territory for the Irish president. But Mary McAleese had

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:44.

only started to build bridges. Four months ago, East Belfast. Once upon

:17:45.:17:48.

a time, and Irish President and especially this one would have been

:17:48.:17:54.

unwelcome almost in any loyalist area in Northern Ireland. But a

:17:54.:17:58.

mark of this presidency is that at times, the unthinkable has become

:17:58.:18:04.

ordinary. Not that there have been no slip-ups. In 2005, during a

:18:04.:18:09.

visit to Auschwitz, President back police angered Unionists by

:18:09.:18:15.

comparing Northern Ireland to Nazi Germany. They gave to their

:18:15.:18:20.

children an irrational hatred of Jews. In the same way that people

:18:20.:18:22.

in Northern Ireland transmit to their children that irrational

:18:22.:18:29.

hatred of Catholics. They it was completely wrong, what she said. It

:18:29.:18:36.

was a really hurtful, unfair and incorrect comparison to make. She

:18:36.:18:42.

did apologise quickly. But it was there. And you cannot take back

:18:42.:18:48.

spoken words. Then, she and her husband engaged in one of their

:18:48.:18:53.

riskiest moves ever. They began meeting directly with loyalist

:18:53.:18:57.

paramilitary leaders. It was an initiative that pushed at the

:18:57.:19:03.

boundaries of what the Irish presidency is meant to be. Although

:19:03.:19:06.

he has no official constitutional role, Martin McAlees became

:19:06.:19:10.

something like his wife's ambassador to loyalism. Engaging

:19:10.:19:14.

with leaders on the golf course and retain the on the streets of

:19:14.:19:21.

Belfast. Going out and playing golf with former terrorists in the K

:19:21.:19:29.

Club has built bridges. Has it made some people slightly disquiet?

:19:29.:19:36.

is an unelected person and he has been given state resources and

:19:36.:19:41.

state pressings to do this job, which ready, nobody knew any

:19:41.:19:47.

details about. It was done privately and we're very lucky and

:19:47.:19:51.

it is testament to him that it all turned out very well in the end. It

:19:51.:19:57.

was a huge risk. But the risk paid off. When people would not speak to

:19:57.:20:01.

us, Mary and Martin went ahead and introduced us to the Taoiseach at

:20:01.:20:10.

the time. It opened so many doors. They will always be my friends.

:20:10.:20:13.

the same time, Mary McAleese was forging another important

:20:13.:20:23.
:20:23.:20:32.

relationship. One that would as illicit another unlikely moment.

:20:32.:20:39.

SHE SPEAKS IN IRISH. To speak those words in the Gaelic tongue was

:20:39.:20:43.

significant. Her comments, here in this very building in Dublin Castle,

:20:43.:20:47.

the seat of British power and influence in Ireland for hundreds

:20:47.:20:53.

of years, when she closed that circle of history. The Queen's

:20:53.:20:57.

visit in June, the first by a British monarch since the Republic

:20:57.:21:00.

achieved independence, was a crowning achievement of her

:21:00.:21:07.

presidency. Her tireless devotion to not just the South but also,

:21:08.:21:11.

east, west and relations between Britain and Ireland, was very much

:21:11.:21:16.

on show during those four days. scene to get on well personally?

:21:16.:21:20.

They do. And that is a friendship that has been built up over years

:21:20.:21:24.

because it has the shared interests that they have been building

:21:24.:21:30.

relations between the countries. Not least to help Northern Ireland.

:21:30.:21:35.

What was amazing was that they sob that this was no threat to

:21:35.:21:40.

Irishness, no threat to the integrity or their identity. So,

:21:40.:21:45.

Ireland grew up in a very big way during those three days. They were

:21:45.:21:50.

magnificent days, really magnificent. Everyone felt

:21:50.:21:54.

apprehensive that things would go wrong. And then they just grew

:21:54.:22:02.

proud. South Lebanon. Mary McAleese's last overseas trip as

:22:02.:22:07.

President and she is here to meet Irish peace keeping troops. In 1987,

:22:07.:22:15.

she made the same trip as her first visit abroad. Those excursions have

:22:15.:22:20.

book ended a remarkable Presidency. The times I look back on with pride,

:22:20.:22:23.

Winifred became president, I said we would do our best to build

:22:23.:22:30.

bridges and that is what we hopefully did. We had tremendous

:22:30.:22:35.

opportunities to build relationships in places and spaces

:22:35.:22:44.

were they had not been healthy. I am very pleased with that. In a few

:22:44.:22:47.

weeks, President Michaelis's like this will join those of her

:22:47.:22:51.

predecessors here. Such has been a success of the presidency, she has

:22:51.:22:56.

even won over one of her former rivals for a place in Aras an

:22:56.:23:02.

Uachtarain. In the 1987 and -- 1987 campaign, Derek Lally stood against

:23:02.:23:07.

her. Was there anything you would have done differently? A lot of

:23:07.:23:16.

things. But I am quite happy now I that she did a much better job than

:23:16.:23:20.

I ever would have done. At the show us a press President we ever had.

:23:20.:23:26.

best ever? I think so. A hard act to follow? Absolutely, and we thank

:23:26.:23:32.

her for her duty and commitment to the cause. She has made it so easy

:23:33.:23:38.

for people like ourselves. From what we used to be, to what they

:23:38.:23:43.

are and what we need to be. Her legacy will be that she has built

:23:43.:23:48.

bridges and it will never be forgotten. The reflections on the

:23:48.:23:51.

presidency of Mary McAleese. Now for another in our occasional

:23:51.:23:53.

series introducing the latest generation of MLAs. This week,

:23:53.:23:56.

Julia Paul has been to Londonderry to meet a man whose political

:23:56.:24:06.
:24:06.:24:13.

career began at the tender age of 14. I have lived all my life in

:24:13.:24:19.

Derry. After a short stint in Liverpool. I have been a member of

:24:19.:24:23.

the SDLP since I was 14. I was involved in other things as well. I

:24:23.:24:29.

played sport. Derry has a very political city and this is a

:24:29.:24:32.

political country and I saw the opportunity with the Good Friday

:24:32.:24:36.

agreement to get involved and see a future that was there for all of us

:24:36.:24:41.

and one we can all play our part in. I believe that we can unite Ireland

:24:41.:24:46.

and we can be open and honest and it will be welcome to everybody. I

:24:46.:24:49.

was asked to run for the council when it was 22, representing

:24:49.:24:57.

Shantallow. I got elected. I was very proud. To represent Shantallow

:24:57.:25:02.

in the city. Things went from there. I was very humble last year to be

:25:02.:25:07.

elected as the mayor. In my first week, the Saville Report was

:25:07.:25:12.

launched and I worked with the Bloody Sunday families and it was a

:25:12.:25:17.

real honour to walk with this family is to the Guild Hall. To

:25:17.:25:21.

finally see the truth being set free. That was a day that lifted

:25:21.:25:26.

that dark cloud off the city. And the hope that came from that was

:25:26.:25:31.

very palpable. Today's letter, we went to Liverpool to bid to become

:25:31.:25:36.

the City of Culture. The winner of the competition to be the capital

:25:36.:25:43.

of culture is Derry, Londonderry... That was the beginning of a very

:25:43.:25:48.

good year for me and the City. And I was very proud to be involved. It

:25:48.:25:53.

was also a difficult year because we had a number of attacks on the

:25:53.:25:58.

city. And on the people. By dissident republicans. But what

:25:58.:26:03.

came out of that, the positive was the strength and the will of the

:26:03.:26:07.

people. They decided strongly they would not accept this. Derry is now

:26:07.:26:14.

on the up. But for a long time, it suffered and the poverty and the

:26:14.:26:17.

joblessness, and a lot of those issues are still there. Those are

:26:17.:26:21.

the issues that excited me. To try to make a difference, to change the

:26:21.:26:27.

face of the city. We can see the physical infrastructure, we are

:26:27.:26:30.

standing on the peace bridge, that is changing, at long last. But we

:26:30.:26:33.

have to think carefully and honestly about the fact that a lot

:26:33.:26:37.

of our people, especially young people, are either leaving because

:26:37.:26:40.

they cannot find work or they are on the dole. That is the burning

:26:40.:26:46.

issue. We need to solve that into the future. If we put all our

:26:46.:26:51.

shoulders to the wheel, we can solve that. I am one of the

:26:51.:26:54.

youngest MLAs from one of the youngest cities in Ireland and

:26:54.:27:01.

Britain. That is important, that be allowed everybody to have their say.

:27:01.:27:04.

And for young people to be in the assembly. What we need to learn is

:27:04.:27:08.

the lessons of the past, we have not always been good at listening

:27:08.:27:11.

to young people. Politicians are good at talking down to young

:27:11.:27:17.

people and telling them what they want. Without asking. That is one

:27:17.:27:21.

of the biggest problems. We have to go out and listen to young people.

:27:21.:27:25.

I have tried that in my role. We can all get better at that and

:27:26.:27:28.

social media is a good way of engaging with young people because

:27:28.:27:34.

you have to go to where they are. And it's better than standing on a

:27:34.:27:38.

pedestal. Over the next four years we have a lot to do. Especially

:27:38.:27:44.

around infrastructure. We can take the A five, something that needs to

:27:44.:27:49.

progress. We need to get the dual- carriageway from Derry to

:27:49.:27:53.

Aughnacloy. That will link Derry to the rest of the island. About time,

:27:54.:27:57.

because Derry has been on the fringes of the economic expansion

:27:57.:28:02.

first to -- for too long. There are powers and the Assembly who want to

:28:02.:28:07.

stop that. But the people listen, they will hear, that means Derry is

:28:07.:28:11.

being held back by politicians in Stormont. And some of us will not

:28:11.:28:15.

accept that. And that's where we must leave it this time round.

:28:15.:28:18.

We'll be back next week at the usual times. I hope you'll join us.

:28:18.:28:28.
:28:28.:28:29.

Goodbye. Am I invisible?! Who will win the Irish presidential race?

:28:29.:28:38.

The outcome is us on Show as a candidate going for a job interview.

:28:38.:28:42.

They have the gilt edged pension that a solo, MLAs don't even employ

:28:42.:28:48.

relatives. You have the job, now go and research Equality in

:28:48.:28:52.

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