29/09/2011 Hearts and Minds


29/09/2011

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Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week. The Education

:00:22.:00:25.

Minister on his blueprint for schools. Is it about quality or

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cash? Are the striking health unions

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taking us back to the red flag politics of the seventies?

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And two Northern challengers in the race for the Aras. We assess the

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The Education Minister set out his proposals this week for as he put

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it, improving education for all pupils, a process which he said

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would involve unpopular but necessary decisions. John O'Dowd is

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with me now. The focus has been on school closures. You said there is

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no hit list but defy it was a principal with falling numbers, I

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would feel vulnerable and with some justification. The sustainable

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schools policy has specific issues. One of the key factors examining

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the future liability of the school is accessibility. We do have large

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swathes of rural areas in society where for primary schoolchildren

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the distance between two schools is too much. However, the key issue is

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the quality of the education being obtained by the children after

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school. The first phase of the work is looking at the post primary

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sector because it is clear from studies that we need a certain

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number of pupils in a school to allow the entitlement framework

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which brings us up to 27 subjects on the curriculum and we need a

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greater mass of pupils and teachers to deliver. Numbers are the easiest

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things to measure so that will be the main thing. Yes, they are but

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there are not measuring numbers, we are measuring education and it is

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not just a numbers game. It looks at the quality, the quality of

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leadership in the school, it looks at accessibility and looks at the

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community links with the school. There is a community part two. I

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hear complaints schools close at 4pm and shut off from the community.

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Also how the school engages with the community because the school

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that does that, the educational table is growing because the

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community feels part of it. said there is no hit list but it

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was pointed out by other politicians there are lists of

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schools which boards are worried about. And that will be the list,

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but will not change in the course of this liability -- the viability

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review. Some of them will be on a list on your desk. I do not like

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the term hit list. We are talking about people's futures. Where we

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need to reduce the number of schools, we have the same number of

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pupils so we have to put them somewhere. Of course, we have

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research and if we didn't journalists would quite rightly

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criticise us for not being informed about the state of our schools. We

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do routinely examine the financial liability of schools and the

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educational attainment and also important link. So you could say

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give me a list of 20 schools tomorrow. I could but I haven't. I

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have asked the boards to sit down together to look at the future

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viability of schools across the sector. Importantly, I have asked

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them to examine, we have a number of schools what we do with the

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pupils? We have to move the pupils on to ensure they receive a proper

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education is a must-have for -- education. I want to ensure Etain

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it is high in every school and where schools cannot make it we

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have to ask ourselves what we do with the pupils? The wider vision,

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you have asked for a real study of providing decent patterns of

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schools in the various areas. Where is it heading, where is the logic,

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Peter Robinson called for a single unified schools system. Well, no,

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it is a more monolithic organisation than I would envisage.

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Diversity in education is a good thing. We have a growing Irish

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language sector,... And missing its targets. We need to move towards

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sharing of facilities and schools. If the proposal comes back to me to

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have a controlled singular school on one side, I will look upon our

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favourite bit. The Catholic schools have completed a survey but they

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have this boning the report because of your announcement. Does that

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head in a different direction from your vision? All the sectors are

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aware of my views in planning the future. This statement may have

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been new to the sectors, my views have been expressed on several

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occasions three meetings and other engagements. What I would say, the

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Catholic sector would have to be radical, it has to be fitting into

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the parameters a set-up. What you think radical means? What is the

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vision? Well, we have to ask, it is no longer the needs of school age,

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we should look at the needs of the school's surrounding school and how

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we amalgamate this together. And maybe continue to use them. I ask

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the question, why it on an urban street would then need two schools

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operating if one of the numbers is falling, widely need to operate

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both of the schools at this time? Surely resources would be better

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used amalgamating the schools and raising the quality and attainment

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of children in the school. And with the same applied to different

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sectors on the same street? Yes, or so it would apply to different

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sectors coming-together on one street. I am not opposed to up. As

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we have seen, there is a lot of sharing going on. The mechanisms I

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have set in place let's sharing to take place. We had about projects

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involving 150 schools, it has been going for five years, the

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department has and put a single penny into it. Why not?

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Department supports are sharing in many ways. But not financially.

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They have offended -- funded schooling. For principles to sit

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down in one room together has been the experience. We are funding

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sharing. I had said explicitly in my statement on Monday if proposals

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come back the shared facilities I will support those. We are

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:08:12.:08:13.

championing -- championing them in Omagh. We have to move on. People

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have to change their mind set. It is not about the individual school,

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it is of other pupils that attend the school. Is any of this ever

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going to happen? The last great fix was the E S A which was brought

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into being from 2006. It has not happened and is costing millions of

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pounds to run. It is not doing anything. It is something your

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predecessor did not push along at all. That requires political

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agreement. If you look at the history of the executive since the

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summer recess and after elections, we have carried out a number of

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major decisions, the DUP and Sinn Fein have put proposals to the

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Environment Agency. We have agreed on a proposals. The politics has

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opened up again. We are moving decisions through the executive. I

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believe with goodwill it can be achieved. Will my proposes be

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achieved? Yes. The terms of reference will be sent out right, I

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will consult further with the boards and other sectors on the

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next piece of work around area planning. In four weeks' time you

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could be deputy first minister, then what? What about continuity in

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your sector? The party would decide in the circumstances who is deputy

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first minister. There is a pool of talent. I am content whether in

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education or D F N, we have the capacity to move along the right

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path. Not a word in the blueprint about the transfer test, why not?

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We talked about educational attainment and sustainability.

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There are schools now he close their doors to children and they

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would have to open them up to survive. That is the reality. No

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school can sit out on its own. This new direction and policy means

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schools he once thought they could sit on the hill with the front

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gates baht to the community... looked at figures showing a

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grammar-school us take dozens of people who get a grade D. Hundreds.

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A small number of grammar schools are true grammar schools. The

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selection test is a clever marketing device. It has not been

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addressed, no one seems to be talking about it and the transfer

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test continues to exist. The fact is from my stint on Monday, no

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school or sector will be able to sit out on their own. There would

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have to come round the table and be part of learning communities.

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you said you often heard sad tales of pupils being made to leave

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schools because they did not reach specific attainment, you are

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talking about people who do not get good enough grades to study at 6th

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form. Is that a direct attack on grammar schools? It is not a case

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where young people has not achieved the grades to go on a study, it may

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be more of a challenge, what was happening was if you do not get

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exceptional grades, you're asked to move on. Universities are demanding

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exceptional results. But our schools system is there to teach

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until the child leaves a 16. We are witnessing in many areas where

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pupils are asked to leave because their exam results do not meet the

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needs of the school. That is not how education should work. The

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school should meet the needs of the people. That is what the play is

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brilliant -- we pay billions into the education system. What is the

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risk of it all becoming a series of sticking plasters without any

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central vision? No, that is why I have bought the board together to

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have a legislative responsibility, working in close conjunction. Those

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bodies have legislative basis. A short time pieces of work with

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long-term results. Turning to another subject, the child abuse

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inquiry, the bodies set up, how important is that? To be victims

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and survivors it is vitally important. For the first time in a

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society's history week, as elected politicians, have acknowledged the

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harm done to those young people. They were abused terribly because

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they are put into the care of the state or the agencies of the state.

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The first step we have taken is acknowledging no wrong, the next

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step has to be an inquiry and identification. A you would pursue

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it to prosecution? If criminal acts took place, which they have, and

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the evidence is put forward, those people should be held responsible.

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The trade union Unison Mac will be striking next week. The Regional

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Secretary claims that when she met the Minister Edwin Poots, he did

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not know what they were striking about. That is understandable. When

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the ballot was announced, the reason given was a consultant --

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consultants reports on the NHS. Since then many other reasons have

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been sighted. There are very few planned compulsory to San --

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redundancies in health. The striker said to go on. An announcement that

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schools will have to close will no doubt be added to the max. It is

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hard to avoid the idea that Unison... Unison's claim to be

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defending public services for the good of everyone is self-service --

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self-serving nonsense. Like most unions, they no longer represent

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the working class against the ruling class. It represents public

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sector workers, a privileged vested interest, against the interests of

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everyone else. If you point this out to public sector workers, they

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say they are taxpayers as well. The purpose of hospitals is not to

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employee nurses and the purpose of schools is not to employee teachers.

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Their employment is a service delivered the overhead. If the same

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:15:46.:15:46.

service can be delivered for less, it should be. Keeping school desks

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empty because you union is putting their members first. Stormont is a

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consensus has done. There are signs that its patience with the unions

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is wearing thin. The DUP's Simon Hamilton has complained about the

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agenda of a small number of people. Union activism in Northern Ireland

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involves a few hundred bury them or their placard waverers, often like

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to hardline parties that cannot get elected. Letting them set the

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agenda is perverse. The unions have performed at least one public

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service - introducing real politics to Stormont at last, and even at

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that is the real politics of the 1970s, is that not where we left

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off? An Ulster Unionist with a special

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interest in transplants now. I have recently been elected. I

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grew up in Banbridge, and my mum and dad had a business. I married a

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farmer. I represent quite a large rural constituency. Issues with

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farming here are issues that affect farmers throughout Northern Ireland.

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I know that farmers want to Falmer not be left filling in forms all

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the time. The I also represent the three main towns here, we need to

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protect those towns and and look after those while encouraging

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inward investment and jobs. My mum has been an active member of the

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Ulster Unionist Party for many years. She gradually introduced my

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sister and her myself. Politics consumes you and you find yourself

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becoming more interested in it. I think sometimes women are reluctant

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to put themselves forward as an election. They see it as a male-

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dominated profession. I think with myself and party colleagues

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recently being elected, it gives them encouragement. I have lived

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here for more than 20 years. I have two boys. Eliot who is at Cambridge

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and Mark to farms here with his dad. Mark was diagnosed at five years

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old as having a severe reflex in both kidneys. We always knew the

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day would come when he needed a kidney transplant. Nothing quite

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prepares you for sitting in the consultant's Waiting Room, when

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they do the blood test, and they say he has two years Max Mum before

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he must go on the kidney transplant list and his kidneys are closing

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down completely. Mark had his transplant at 15, just over two

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years ago. He could not walk, he could hardly move. He was basically

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dying in front of us. Now he is a strapping bedfellow. He is taking

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part indeed -- in the transplant Games in August. Mark and I got

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involved at an Islay which through -- to promote organ donation. At

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that stage I joined the Northern Ireland kidney Patient Association.

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For people at any stage of their lives, they can develop organ

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failure so it is perhaps more stressful for them. To see how well

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mark looks now, it sees -- shows there is life after a transplant.

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That is a great benefit. Because he had his transplant at 15, he might

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need two or three transplants through his life. There is the

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possibility I could give him a kidney. I would like to be known

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for offering first-class constituency service for all of my

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constituents, so that anything that matters to my constituents, I know

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I will do my best to represent them. The seven runners of the Aras an

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Uachtarain Challenge are well into the first bend with a full month

:20:17.:20:24.

ahead of them. News Talk Radio's political editor joins us. The

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nation had their first chance to see the seven candidates in action

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on prime time last night, in separate interviews. Michael

:20:33.:20:38.

Higgins, President of the Labour Party, was the oldest candidate in

:20:38.:20:48.
:20:48.:20:51.

the race. My heart is fine. I had a problem I

:20:51.:20:59.

year ago but it was nothing serious. I am looking forward to their most

:20:59.:21:05.

energetic and vigorous campaign. He is a warm favourite at the

:21:05.:21:10.

moment, with a high profile and a good track record in politics.

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People like him. If you look at the opinion polls, he is close to the

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top, and more crucially, he is getting transfers from every other

:21:19.:21:24.

candidate. This race could be decided by transfers. It is

:21:24.:21:30.

conceded that no candidate will get more than half of the vote on the

:21:30.:21:36.

first ballot. He has a presidential look about him and I think it is

:21:36.:21:42.

his contest to lose. Senator David Norris, he pulled out

:21:42.:21:51.

earlier in the year. Now he is back in the race.

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I could give you a good dancer. I tell you I give you an answer that

:21:56.:22:03.

the Irish people would love me, but I tell you that I cannot on legal

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advice revealed the contents of those letters. Can you accept that?

:22:11.:22:17.

Is this controversy going to affect the senator's chances?

:22:17.:22:22.

Unquestionably. This controversy will not go away. The issue of the

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letters has a risen again because only one letter came up when he

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withdrew from the race. There are possibly five or six other letters

:22:30.:22:36.

that he is refusing to add -- to release, he claims on legal grounds.

:22:36.:22:40.

A lot of people are questioning his legal advice saying there is no

:22:40.:22:45.

legal bar to him releasing the letters. Until he releases those

:22:45.:22:50.

letters, the issue will continue. David Norris is stressing those

:22:50.:22:54.

letters are pretty much identical to the one that was published

:22:55.:22:59.

already but it is an issue that will not go away and will dog him

:22:59.:23:05.

for the length of his campaign. Another northern candidate, he has

:23:05.:23:09.

been asked frequently since his declaration about his past in the

:23:09.:23:15.

iron a. In those interviews, the Enniskillen bomb came up. A I was

:23:15.:23:25.
:23:25.:23:26.

not senior in the eye are they then. -- away. There were many terrible

:23:26.:23:32.

things that happened. I feel ashamed whenever incidents like

:23:32.:23:36.

that happen in the name of Irish republicanism.

:23:36.:23:40.

Martin McGuinness and his past, still an issue?

:23:40.:23:44.

It is and it will be for the duration of the campaign. He seemed

:23:44.:23:49.

to be surprised by the questioning early on in the campaign, but I

:23:49.:23:54.

think he has used to read at this point. He has dealt with it better

:23:54.:23:58.

in recent days. There is no doubt it will be an issue in this

:23:58.:24:03.

campaign. He will be a little disappointed with his performance

:24:03.:24:08.

in the first big poll of the conference. It showed him at 16%,

:24:08.:24:13.

better than the 10% that Sinn Fein had in the general election, but it

:24:13.:24:17.

is a long way short of what is needed to be elected and crucially,

:24:17.:24:23.

he is not getting transfers. But it would be an improvement on the

:24:23.:24:28.

general election performance, bring him into second or third position.

:24:28.:24:33.

On balance, that might be the limit of Sinn Fein's ambitions.

:24:33.:24:37.

Rosemary Scallon is the second northern candidate from the same

:24:37.:24:42.

part of the world as Martin McGuinness. She was in the race in

:24:42.:24:46.

1997 but did not win it. She was asked this time that she was

:24:46.:24:51.

bringing anything new to the table. People know me as the Eurovision

:24:51.:24:56.

member -- winner for this country but perhaps they did not know me

:24:56.:25:02.

beyond that. I came in third place and took almost 15% of the vote. I

:25:02.:25:09.

know that people began to realise that I said what I thought.

:25:09.:25:15.

I think our chances are slim. She did run in the 1997 presidential

:25:15.:25:20.

elections and surprised a lot of people by becoming third. She

:25:20.:25:23.

appeals to a traditional Conservative vote. But I think it

:25:23.:25:30.

will be difficult to replicate that 14%. She does not have the element

:25:30.:25:35.

of surprise this time. It is a much more congested field and a much

:25:36.:25:39.

more high-profile field. She has contested a number of election

:25:39.:25:43.

since that point. She was successful in one European election

:25:43.:25:49.

but since then she has failed to be elected. If she got seven or 8% of

:25:49.:25:59.
:25:59.:26:01.

the vote she would be doing well. The other candidates. What are

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their chances? Made a day this is probably a dark

:26:06.:26:14.

horse. If Michael Higgins will fall short, what many Davies. The poll

:26:14.:26:18.

from last Sunday showed her getting a lot of transfers from a lot of

:26:18.:26:23.

candidates. Middle Ireland likes her. People say her campaign has

:26:23.:26:28.

been drab and dull but it is a solid campaign, well organised, and

:26:28.:26:34.

she does appeal to that middle Ireland vote. She is another woman.

:26:34.:26:42.

Her name is Mary like the two previous presidents. The other

:26:42.:26:47.

candidate is having a difficult campaign. Some Gallacher probably

:26:47.:26:55.

has the best message. I do not know how credible it is but his campaign

:26:55.:27:01.

does not seem to be taking off. Is there much sense of excitement?

:27:01.:27:05.

I do not think that is the right word. Any excitement there was was

:27:05.:27:10.

probably crashed by seeing seven ten-minute interviews with each

:27:10.:27:16.

candidate yesterday on TV. It is an unwieldy field. A lot of interest

:27:16.:27:19.

has been generated by David Norris's attempt to get back into

:27:19.:27:23.

the race but certainly I think it has distracted from the more real

:27:23.:27:29.

and pressing problems down here. Ultimately, it is not the most

:27:29.:27:34.

significant job here. It is largely ceremonial and what it will come

:27:34.:27:39.

down to is, who is the best person to represent Ireland abroad? Who

:27:39.:27:45.

will look good standing beside the Queen, for example? It is largely

:27:45.:27:51.

about personality. While it might of been a most exciting race,

:27:51.:27:55.

previous presidential contests have been nasty, dirty and better and I

:27:55.:27:59.

would not be surprised if it turns out like this.

:27:59.:28:03.

That is where we'll leave it this time. We will be back at the usual

:28:03.:28:13.
:28:13.:28:15.

time next week. Goodbye. His two claims not enough for you?

:28:15.:28:21.

I am like a male version of Rehana. I cannot sing but I have... I have

:28:21.:28:30.

been shouted at. The DUP doing their bit for feminism, telling one

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