07/07/2017 Politics Europe

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Jo Coburn talks about European politics with MEPs Sajjad Karim and Clare Moody. They discuss the future direction and development of the EU, and what president Macron is planning.

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Hello and welcome to politics Europe. The French President


Emmanuel Macron says Europe has lost its way and promises to hold


democratic conventions across the EU to discuss reform. The EU strikes at


outlying free-trade deal with Japan but with much of the details still


to be hammered out. MEPs discuss how to plug the EU funding gap after


Brexit. We report from Strasbourg. And just what was getting the


commission president John Hood yorker so hot under the collar? I


will never, I will never again attempt a meeting of this kind. Some


may wonder if that is a promise or a threat and it is all become in the


next 30 minutes and with me, joined by two MEPs, the Conservative Sajjad


Karim and for Labour. Welcome. First of all, this is the round-up of the


latest EU news in just 60 seconds. I'm under the new French President


gave a speech saying the European Union had lost its way in the past


ten years. The solution is a new generation of leaders like him,


presumably. EU and Japan reached every work agreement on a free-trade


agreement, paving the way for motor race on goods by Japanese car than


farming product. It's the last leg for the European Parliament is all a


sports day and lessons outside, MEPs voted to approve a 1 million euros


aid package for Moldova, defeated a bid to give Northern Ireland special


status within the EU following Brexit, and just ask whether they


should be based in a single city and stopped their monthly shuttle from


Strasbourg and back. It also got a ticking off from the President


Juncker after a few dozen MEPs turned up to hear him speak. You are


ridiculous. He also said he'd never again attend a meeting of the kind.


MEPs were unsure if it was a threat or a promise. How significant is the


trade agreement with Japan question mark isn't it just symbolic? Not at


all, there are several factors around the trade deal and one is how


long it's taken, which is a lesson to all of us, and every still more


to do. How long have taken? Four years to get this far and there are


still further processes to go through, the it's something we need


to keep a steady eye on. It also, it is between these two enormous kind


of economic bases and you know, where you have Japanese


manufacturers or other companies, you know, need to keep an eye on


this because what will happen to our trade with Japan? We will come to it


in a moment but I mean is a symbolic in terms of PR and head of the G20


because there's still so much to negotiate. I mean they haven't


actually tied the deal have they? And this was arrived at the moment


from where it would seem that there is no pulling back now. Right. Is


another of tidying up exercise is still to do. What I found


interesting about this was that the Japanese stated that this was a deal


done between them and the 28 members of the European Union. So


including... Including the United Kingdom which I believe sends a


strong signal that the United Kingdom remains open for business


and that we welcome this deal and we are in a position to do similar


deals ourselves, post- Brexit. And do you agree with that? Isn't this


than an example of what could be achieved, albeit in a shorter space


of time if the government gets its way, a free-trade deal between the


UK and the EU? Well, we absolutely have to land deal between us and the


EU. They have managed to with Japan. Over four years. We have less than


two years left in terms of the -- sorting out our exit which become


significant in terms of thought we'd do in transition. But also to have


an equality of the scale of the economy is when you are looking at


the EU and Japan. We are in a different position thought of in the


future if we are looking at just the UK to bring trade. Isn't that the


problem? Twice as long as the amount of time that Theresa May and Davis


Davis have at their disposal to secure trade deal between the EU? I


think the challenges are huge and you shouldn't underestimate it. If


it impossible to achieve? The other thing to bear in mind is it doesn't


cover services. Any have not cover services as well. The challenge is a


far greater than the Japanese challenge and therefore we really


are going to have to concentrate our minds in a very short space of time


to deliver this. Is it realistic? And if the actually concentrate our


minds to the real issues, we are not going to get this timeline. And the


real issues that aggression before trade and the economy or the other


way around? The economy must come first. Immigration must be a


secondary issue. If we do with the other way around I'm afraid our


economy and this whole issue of meeting the deadlines is going to


unravel very quickly indeed. But talk about Juncker, it was quite an


outpost, he was cross, not many MEPs turned up to hear him address the


parliament. Was it right to criticise you guys? No, I don't. He


had a moment, that happens, we all have our moments every now and then.


Reality is like Westminster, if people aren't in the chamber, that's


because they are working elsewhere in the building. I was in working


groups that morning, I have three back-to-back working groups on the


different pieces of legislation we are working on. So the reality is


very different from the one he was talking about here. We have Monday -


Thursday as with Westminster to get a lot of work done and you


concentrate on effective work rather than sitting in chambers. Do you


agree he overstepped the mark would do you feel as president of the


commission he was due a bit of respect from elected representatives


like yourself to at least come and hear him speak? I think this works


both ways. There has been a number of occasions where he should have


actually been present in the chamber himself and he wasn't. Right. So it


works both ways and if we are willing to accept he cannot always


be there, he needs to be the same for us. He got a real telling off


though from the head of the parliament. I would expect nothing


less! Right. We will end up there. And he has apologised since. True,


Mr Juncker? Yes. Now what will the EU look like after Brexit? It has


been the topic of discussion amongst leaders and this week President


Macron waded into the debate. On Monday he said that the European


Union had to be revived by a new generation of leaders. And he


announced that France and Germany would launch a graphic conventions


by the end of 2017, with the aim of re- founding Europe. He insisted


each member state would be free to sign-on or not. But there is no


longer time for quick fixes. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has


signalled her support for a change in Europe, one day after the Briton


negotiations began, she told the Federation of German industry she


was open to a joint EU finance minister. It only if the framework


conditions are right. And she said she would discuss the eurozone by


the budget, as long as it is clear that this will truly strengthen


structures and do meaningful things. The debate follows on from Mr


Juncker 's white paper outlining five scenarios the future of the EU,


it was discussed at the Rome summit in March. That ranged from the EU


re- focusing solely on the Common Market to foster integration between


nations and admit all that and the Brexit negotiations, the UK will


have to decide if it is still to join an EU wide battle group which


Britain has committed forces to join from 2019. After the UK is due to


leave the EU. Well, we've been joined by party. What is Macron's


grand plan big Europe? What are these democratic conventions look


like? Of course there are a lot of expectations on his shoulders right


now, this was a manifesto promise appears to hold democratic


conventions of property have still extended across the EU and I think


this is the basis on which he constructed his own campaign when he


was running for president here and the expectation is you can build a


bottom-up sort of democracy and the people themselves can shape the


priorities of the French presidency or the European Union going forward.


If a talking shop? Is it a way of being seen to be doing something


without any real substance? I think it is one criticism of it but what


he hopes to achieve with these democratic conventions is to focus


minds in Europe but more soundly and given Mr Juncker's white paper


earlier this year when he suggested there were different methods the EU


can pursue coming forward for reform, one of which was do less but


more effectively, I think Macron's convention tends to stick to that,


to ask the people what they want them to focus on. What about the new


generation of leaders. He's new, but who else? Have the Irish president


who is now the youngest in the EU, and I think we have, what he is


speaking about more generally rather than just humouring his neighbours


is the idea of rejuvenating the EU project which has the mandate he


thinks he has. Do you think Macron will be successful in trying to


reshape Europe, liberating the member states once the UK leaves?


I'm not quite sure what liberating the member states looks like but in


terms of his attitude, it was interesting watching the French


campaign because he ran an unashamedly pro- European campaign.


Westminster is not perfect, but a Westminster is not perfect, but a


whole lot of institutions that are not perfect, but he ran up against a


sort of anti- European campaign from Marine Le Pen 8181 much better than


people thought he might do. So from that basis of looking than how he


can re-establish a kind of enthusiasm from Europe, I think is


his starting point and I think it is probably a good idea. How does he do


that though? Because as Clare was saying there was anti- European


sentiment within front as well, yes Emmanuel Macron did win


overwhelmingly, but if you look at what it can actually do, is he going


to bring and should he bring all the eurozone states even closer


together? Isn't that what he is planning, more integration? And will


it work? I admire his ambitions to what he is doing is going from a


platform of having fought the French elections were the galvanising force


was the fact that he had a far right extremist as a candidate against


him, and even then the turnout was not infused enough to be able to say


the French people felt enthused to come and back Macron on this. For


him than the say that he can take this on across Europe wide scale, I


believe it is really ambitious on his part. It doesn't sound like


Sajjad thinks it could work. Is further integration for European


countries within the EU the answer? If you take on board some of the


euroscepticism that does exist in France, it is still divided like


many other countries, but will it work? A lot of what is being talked


about will take a long time to deliver, quite possibly, after we


have left the European Union. So the big certain extent it is up to them.


Make the choice for EU 27, they will decide how the EU 27 work best


together. We are going to do watching from the outside. Right.


And looking at what Macron is trying to do, if we take the idea he is


trying to bring the eurozone countries together as they are


looking at ideas that will actually promote bad, is going to be harder


for the UK to negotiate its deal? I think first of all we have to


discuss the feasibility of the project and he accepts that this is


not something that will happen in the short or the near term. What is


the sort of timing he's pushing on? He suggests he understands the idea


of the eurozone budget, eurozone minister, duress and parliament will


require a lot of backing from Germany and obviously the smaller


states as well. Reticence on the German side is the idea that France


needs to get its own economy in shape before Germany is willing to


back it. The Macron has said he will take a Labour market reform or other


economic reforms domestically first and foremost before you went to


Germany with these ideas, and put them in force. So whether or not


this will form part of the negotiations I in the first thing to


consider is what Timeline is Macron and the eurozone imagine for these


reforms? And the direction of travel if it goes down that route and I


take your point he has a big enough job trying to reform France in terms


of Labour reforms, it will that be a good thing or a bad thing to you


think for the UK as its negotiating its exit? It's difficult to know


because of course this is not just a concern for the UK, it is a concern


for all of it has been present for many of the smaller member states in


the EU as well, the idea that the EU's final destination will be the


eurozone. And what matters then is if you're a small estate on the edge


without membership of the euro, do you still form part of the EU? Does


this is the direction that the EU looks like he is going to go down,


the UK will not be alone in watching from the outside, thinks all member


states will also be look and asking what will EU membership men in the


future, will have to join the euro? It's only a surprise the close


integration is in some ways what Macron wants, as you say,


unashamedly pro-EU, pro- European, do you think will make it difficult


for the UK, these negotiations? While Europe is trying to figure out


where it is going itself, that will affect the negotiations with us. One


of the criticisms we are currently getting is we don't know whether we


can negotiate, how stable is the British government? It applies the


other way as well with the vision for Europe. They don't know where


they are going. And with Emmanuel Macron, he is a man who has fought


one election in his lifetime, and that is to be president of France.


He is yet to face the hard realities of medical dynamics in France, let


alone European ones. What about the smaller members of the EU? Will


there be a complete two-tier Eurozone emerging? There is


resistance against that, as is noted in the five-point plan. I know that


isn't a direction a number of EU states want to take. The EU is a bit


like a tanker as we know. It does not turn around quickly. We are


having a quick and negotiation in terms of the exit. I hope the exit


takes longer if we are going to do it well. They are separate


conversations. I don't think they will have a significant impact. You


are talking about conventions over a couple of years or whatever, that


will not feed into a political process impacting on the


negotiations. The commitment to the EU battle group, how do you feel


about that? We are waiting for announcement from the UK on that. We


said we would provide the headquarters for that in the


immediate future. But what is important is certainly from a


bilateral defence point of view, we have commitments, including from


Emmanuel Macron in France that that should deepen. Whether we progress


with that to a European level remains to be seen. What do you


think? The butter groups have been in existence for ten years but have


never been used once. -- battle. Everything has had to have been done


on a natural level. Will it last in terms of our commitment to it?


Security and defence is one of those areas where there is a strong


interest in every regard that we work together. Nato and the EU are


working together more closely than they ever have done, in fact, and we


need to be part of that. My concern is we are taking ourselves out of


the leading role in it, we will be participants if we manage to get a


deal that includes security and defence at all, and the disadvantage


is we will become very much a second-class participant. Very


briefly, are you being embraced by your colleagues in the Parliament or


marginalised these days? Personally, everyone gets on steel. They have


played a productive path. -- still. And people don't just say yes when


you speak to them... You are implying they said yes immediately?


We had a huge role that we played in the Parliament. Thank you. We have


heard a lot about the financial obligations the UK may have when it


leaves the EU, but once they lose one of the biggest net contributors,


how may be remaining 27 countries balance the books? Big news, the


opening of a 360 degrees recreation of the hammer cycle. They were


receiving a briefing on the future size and shape of the EU's finances


for a seven year period from 2020, finances that will have a Brexit


shaped hole in them between ten and 12 billion euros every year. The


budget commissioner explains the EU is also taking on new tasks like


fighting terrorism almost so it needed more cash, what is called a


multi annual financial framework, the MAFF. It could mean changes to


how the budget operates. For example, could reach companies like


Germany be asked to pay more? -- richer. Could countries like


Bulgaria have to take out less? We need more from this country and


different countries and we have to stop with all of the special


conditions. Not only Britain, it was also Germany and also I think the


Netherlands. There is no reason to get special treatment. The


commission has mooted a European pollution tax on cars to raise money


as well as visitors coming to the EU. It has been seen as a power grab


by some. I think the budget should remain strongly linked with


nationstates and member states as cornerstones of the EU. I am not in


favour of any new revenues, any European taxes on any sources for


the budget. But when the all of us have to be decided, and what role


for the 751 MEPs? The 600 that will be left after the Brits are gone.


Parliament has a say. Of course, we don't decide how things will be, the


member states decide it. But if we don't like it, on the other hand...


They have to listen to us in a certain degree. A narrow window,


September, 2018, before the election, 2019, we have to have a


ready package by that time to be able to tell the European citizens


what we are going to do with the budget. Finally, a quick trip to the


new photo booth. One thing will disappear from the financial picture


altogether, thanks to Brexit, there will be no more UK rebate, so the


budget will look much simpler, and that gets the thumbs up around here.


A nice and cheesy smile. Allan Fleming. Any ideas how the EU should


plug the gap of some 10 billion euros a year? The negotiations go


on, the MFF, that is being talked about, a catchy title, it goes on


for seven years. We are in the middle of a current seven-year


process. Negotiations are beginning now, part of the talk recently. They


have a headache and that could be to the advantage of the UK, as they


will lose our money. That is where the divorce bill comes in. It is


also about what comes after Brexit and what we choose, how we will


contribute? We could contribute beyond Brexit. It will be a


complicated sum. Do you accept that? It could well be a situation like


that, and would you support it if the UK contributes to funds we want


to be part of during a transitional phase? They will have to accept one


thing, there will be some form of continued payments after the UK


leads the EU. A figure of... I cannot put any figure on it.


Negotiations are so wide at the moment. One thing is clear, the UK


will have to do that, and the EU will have to learn to live with far


less money than it had. That has been something it is bad at. It will


have to find new ways of raising money. You said the British people


would have to accept continued payments, what for? It depends. Some


payments would be for ongoing programmes we take part in. Like


what? Many educational programmes. Research development and so on? Yes.


There will be substantial sums that will need to be paid for access to


the single market. How much would you be prepared to pay? That is part


of the negotiations, as I said. I cannot put a figure on it. I do know


it is the largest export market, and without it, our economy is going to


suffer greatly. That sounds like we won't be leaving in March, 2019, in


a complete and comprehensive way, if we are still paying fines for joint


EU- UK initiatives. There are many factors. We will simply, as things


stand, not be ready to leave the single market in 2019. We only just


started the negotiations on one element of the divorce, we are one


year after the referendum and three months from Article 50. It would be


astonishing if any government could achieve that complicated deal. So,


yes, we will continue paying. We agreed to a multi annual financial


framework going through to 2020, with the bills coming after that,


and then there is the element of needing to stay within the single


market. That may disappoint people in the Conservative Party, not


least, and other people as well, if the UK is not out by March, 2019,


completely. Revenue streams. In that film, one of the contributors said I


don't want new taxes, new revenue streams, will that be unpopular with


the Parliament? I think there is real resistance to that sort of move


where the European Union can directly start to impose taxation.


However, this is also a part of the ongoing debate in Europe today, what


is the future of Europe going to be? This, actually, today, has once


again become an active question. Don't forget the financial tax back


on the table. As you said, we have a long and hot summer ahead of us.


Thank you for being our guests today. That is it for now with


regards to European politics. Bye bye.


After a warm, muggy night, Sunday should bring us some more


Not dry everywhere, though, some rain in the forecast too.


During Saturday, there were scenes a bit like this.


A lot of sunshine around, this is Ceredigion, in Wales.


Jo Coburn talks about European politics with MEPs Sajjad Karim and Clare Moody.

They discuss the future direction and development of the EU, and what president Macron is planning. Plus a report on how the EU might plug the 10 billion euro funding gap after Brexit.