05/02/2014 Politics Scotland

Welcome to Politics Scotland, coming up on the programme: This is the

scene live at Holyrood as the last budget before the referendum comes

before MSPs. Campaigners say a little bit of history has been made

as Scotland becomes the 17th country in the world to pass same-sex

marriage legislation. Here at Westminster, the referendum debate

is hotting up. Top energy company boss and the politicians both pitch

in. Hello. MSPs are today expected to back the Scottish Government's

budget, a ?30 billion package of public spending for the year ahead.

We'll have the budget debate live from the chamber and speak to some

MSPs who'll be voting on it. But first, our political commentator for

the afternoon, David Clegg, the political editor of the Daily Record

is here to give a budget briefing. What is happening at Holyrood this

afternoon? Last-minute negotiations going on about the budget. The main

details of this we have known for some time. There were changes about

childcare and free school meals made just a few weeks ago. At the minute

the discussions are largely focussing on the bedroom tax, which

may see Labour voting for the SNP's budget for the first time. The

bedroom tax has been a huge political issue? At the Daily Record

we have been campaigning against the bedroom tax. We are delighted we

will get a victory here. There will be extra money to the full effects

are met indicated. The mechanism is quite interesting because it depends

how they are allowed to do that? Obviously, welfare is not a devolved

issue. It's not really within the Scottish Parliament's remit they are

usinglet housing payment system, payments made to people struggling

to pay their rent. There is a cap on that. Little bit of tinkering around

to do to see how they will get this money out. We will be back with you

shortly. First of all, as promised, let's speak to some MSPs who will be

voting on the budget. Brian Taylor, our political editor, is standing by

with a choice selection of them at Holyrood. Choice indeed. Mr Stewart.

The budget targeted towards jobs, your Conservative opponents are

saying not enough is being done on the jobs front? Targeting jobs and

social justice, in terms of free school meals, the extension of

childcare and of course trying to mitigate that bedroom tax even

further. It would be better if we had all of the powers to abolish the

bedroom tax, but I think Mr Swinney will announce today we will do

everything possible to mitigate that bedroom tax. Straight to that,

Jenny. The measures to mitigate the so-called bedroom tax. Labour has

been discussing behind-the-scenes We had an amendment down today that we

hope the Government will vote for. Labour have been working with John

Swinney to see if he will come up with the money to mitigate the

affects of the bedroom tax. It's having a devastating affect on the

communities across Scotland. We are optimistic the government will

support it. Wasn't there mutual suspicion you were play games about

the constitution as well? Our priority has been to mitigate the

affects of the bedroom tax for communities across country. We

worked with the SNP, we worked hand and hard. You were challenging them

saying they could use existing powers.

saying they could use existing back independence? When the budget

was published there wasn't one penny to mitigate the affects of the

bedroom tax. We are hoping today - There was, there was ?20 million in

the budget to mitigate the bedroom tax. The discussions have been

ringed about trying to increase that funding. Not when it was first

published. Through direct housing payments. We don't have that power.

The Cabinet secretary has asked Lord Freud for that power. The best thing

would be to abolish than mitigate it. Defend the abolition, with the

draw of the spare room subsidies? It's not my position to do so. It's

a deal set up between the Labour Party and the SNP. At a time when

the British economy is coming uft recession and growing faster than

any other country in Europe we should take the opportunity to

achieve the maximum benefit from that - In terms of the economy, the

British economy is doing less well than every other G7 country bar

Italy. The British economy is booming and here in Scotland Labour

and the SNP are trying to out flank each other on the left. Do you think

the tax, the withdrawal of the spare room subsidy is that justifiably?

The policy is perfectly justifiably. There are people in overcrowded

situations in Scotland today who need larger accommodation. We need

to get under occupation squeezed out of the system. As a party you are

not happy with the withdrawal of the bedroom tax. What do you think of

the efforts by Labour and the SNP in this budget to mitigate in Scotland?

In a year where politics is more decisive parties are am coulding

together to address what are seen as issues of importance

movement on the issue of childcare. Your party has pushed for this?

Absolutely. In a letter sent before Christmas there were four key points

set out. Childcare, free school meals, as per south of the border,

additional money into colleges and additional money going into housing

for social rent. What we have seen is movement on all of those. That I

think is progressive. For a range of reasons, the Liberal Democrats and

Labour look like finding themselves potentially in a position to back

this budget, your party does not? No, we are not prepared to back a

budget that doesn't take the opportunities presented by recovery.

We want more done see we have growth in the Scottish economy. The best

form of welfare is a job. ?8 billion in capital investment over two years

while the budget is cut by 1 % in real terms. It's consistently the

policy of this government to complain and find solutions. Party

is likely to back this budget, you retain reservations? We have been

clear to the start if John Swinney can find the money to mitigate the

devastating affects of the bedroom tax we would be prepared to support

the budget. I hope if the SNP do that tonight we can vote for the

budget. Found yourself in a bind potentially voting against childcare

and free school meals, voting against so-called goodies? I don't

think that is the case. We wanted the money to go into childcare. They

are good things. The important thing is that the bedroom tax is mitigated

tonight and tend for Scots. If we could abolish the bedroom tax I wish

we had the power to do so - A Labour Government will do that 2015. Sooner

than you could. She is talking about nonsense about the economy of the UK

at this moment. Is nonsense. We growing a lot less faster than any

other G7 growing a lot less faster than any

everything it can to boost that economy. ?8 billion in capital

investment. The retention of the small business bonus which is

helping small businesses. On that point. We are not out of the woods,

what we are seeing is business confidence, we are seeing

unemployment down, employment up. A range of factors showing we are in

the right direction. The SNP predicted we would be in recession

almost permanently. Now they seem to be hell bent on talking the economy

down. George Osborne's policies are working for Scotland. We need to

work in tune with them, not against them. That is what this budget does.

On this economic point? There is a decent budget. We will be supporting

it tonight. We could do better. Our priority is to see an end to the

bedroom tax. If that happens, that is why we will support it. Final

word, you want to get to the chamber. We need to see a complete

change of tact. No austerity. The only way to do that is with an

independent Scotland. To all four. Heads being shaken vigorously at the

other side there. Thank you to all four. They have to rush off to catch

John Swinney's opening statement. Frankly, so do I. Back to the

studio. Thank you for that. Is Is I'm joined by David K Clegg from the

Daily Record. Interesting to hear the de ence from Mr Johnson. He was

putting the point it helps maybe people to move to other

accommodation when the UK is coming out of recession. Perhaps it helps

the economy to cut the deficit? Both of those points are nonsense. There

is no houses for them to move into. It's not saving any money. It's

costing money at the minute. His defence of the bedroom tax is

ludicrous. Secondly, we had the Labour Party and the SNP having a

little bit of constitutional bickering about how we are sorting

out the bedroom tax. It would be very nigh evil to expect in the

current political climate there wouldn't be constitutional prism

this is viewed by. One of the things both parties deserve credit for,

despite they came together and sorted the problem out. Which is

what the people of Scotland wanted. Let's hear from the Finance

Secretary, John Swinney. He's now speaking there. Let's hear from him.

Show that the policies of the Scottish Government to create

employment and boost the economy are delivered the progress flird our

economic recovery strategy. Over the next two years we will support the

economy by securing more than ?8 billion of investment in Scotland's

infrastructure, supporting 50,000 equivalent jobs across the wider

economy. We will invest in our schools, our hospitals, in

affordable housing with over ?970 million in investment in affordable

housing in the three years to March 2015 and a further ?120 million to

help first-time buyers and existing homeowners to buy a new build home.

We will deliver creator connectivity through significant investment in

our transport infrastructure and providing... By providing superfast

broadband to 95% of premises in Scotland by the end of 2017-18,

exceeding the Government's targets that have been set. We will continue

to invest in the transition to a low-carbon economy and we will

increase our investment in active and sustainable travel to almost ?60

million from between 2015-15 and 2015-16. We will ensure that there

is greater community involvement in the design and delivery of healthy

livingle and active travel measures as part of integrated approach

across Government reflecting the policy priorities out if me by the

Scottish Green Party during the budget process. We are investing

Scottish Green Party during the heavily in our young people funding

a record number heavily in our young people funding

apprenticeships and assisting in the development of the key interventions

to support young people into employment through the Opportunities

For All Initiative. We wait for the Wood Commission on developing

Scotland's young workforce. We will bring forward swift measures and

appropriate resources to act on the final report from the Commission in

partnership with the convention of local authorities and Scotland's

education and business communities. Our consistent theme in this

Government's approach to the economy is the support we can offer to boost

women participation in the labour market. We are providing over ?190

million to our partners in local government to increase early

learning and childcare provision to 600 years, saving families around

?700 a year. In January, we announced a further ?15 million

investment in 2014-15 to dlaifr a phased expansion of elgentleman

biblt to the most vulnerable four to five-year-olds. -- eligibility. Can

I particularly welcome that announcement made in January. He

mentioned about the benefits there are to parents being able to get

back to work. Can he recognise that a boost in early education for young

people can make a big impact on the early years. Professor Hickman said

the best educational investment is before the age of three, does he

agree with me? I certainly accept the point that is made by Mr Renny.

It accords very clearly with the thinking taken forward by my

colleague, the Minister for Young People in the

colleague, the Minister for Young collaborative, which is an excellent

example of how we collaborative, which is an excellent

and motivating all relevant playerses to support the nurture and

development of our youngest citizens. The point he makes in that

respect is a point well made. He has persisted with pressing the

arguments around the expansion of childcare. I pay tribute to the

construction -- constructive contribution he made to the budget

process. Ministers have invited him to participate in the discussions

with partners around the delivery of our commitments on childcare. We

look forward to continuing our partnership working on this

particular issue to deliver the commitments that the Government has

made to parliament around expansion of early years education. This

Presiding Officer is a budget that delivers the measures to maintain

Scotland's position as the most competitive place for doing

business. With the UK's most generous package of business rates

relief worth over ?590 million a year offered right here in Scotland.

With our partners in local government and our enterprising

skills agencies we are investing in Scotland's economic growth while

ensuring that our people are qualified and able to take advantage

of the opportunities that will follow.

Scottish Government is determined to do all it can to tackle inequality

in the country. At a time when the UK government seems increasingly

intent on dismantling the welfare state and has provided -- presided

in an 8% fall over real earnings, we have maintained commitment to public

services and the social wage, our social contract with the people of

Scotland. The budget reflects our commitment to a locally owned NHS

and a properly funded government, in contrast to the approach taken by

the UK government. We are continuing to work with

the UK government. We are continuing government to deliver a council tax

freeze, saving the average household ?1200 by the end of this current

Parliament. You're supporting students with our commitment to free

education, and free personal care and free prescriptions. From next

January, we will fund free school meals for all school children in

primary 1-3. These measures, Presiding Officer,

will provide valuable support to people across Scotland. There will

be further challenges our people face, and the Scottish government is

acting to limit the extent to which the welfare reforms undermine our

approach. Within our limited devolved powers, we have established

a council tax scheme supporting over 500,000 people who would otherwise

have seen the benefit cut by the UK government. We have provided advice

for the benefit agencies to meet the pressure on them and have backed the

welfare fund to help those encountering difficulties. We are

determined to do all that we can to help mitigate the effects of reform,

but the scale of the challenge is literally enormous. Reform would

remove an estimated ?4.5 billion from the Scottish economy and the

Chancellor has announced further cuts over 2016-2018. He quoted a

figure of 4.5 billion. Out of that 4.5 billion, how many have the

Scottish Government pledged to reverse with independence? What I am

Scottish Government pledged to damage that has been done to the

people the United Kingdom. That is the

reality that Mr Brown cannot avoid. We must be clear that we will never

be able to mitigate all of the damaging effects of welfare reform

and any resources we deployed are at the expense of other services we

could support within areas of responsibility. Over the period

2013-2016, this government will spend over ?244 million on

alleviating the impact of welfare reform, resources we could have

spent on devolved services had they not been required to safeguard

vulnerable people in Scotland. One of the key elements of welfare

reform has been the Bedroom Tax. The Bedroom Tax is an iniquitous and

damaging policy. I have had constructive conversations with the

Labour Party on mitigating it. I have looked carefully at this issue

to ensure we have a robust way to offer further support. I think it is

now accepted across the chamber that the only measure available to

provide money directed tenants and prevent them entering a position of

indebtedness is through discretionary housing payments. As

Parliament knows, we are limited in our abilities by the imposed by the

Department of work and pensions. On the latest data available from the

DWP, we are constrained to a legal maximum of ?22.85 million. It is an

increase from the original proposal of ?20 million. I confirm that we

are now allocating this increased budget some today. This takes the

total support that can be provided to ?38 million. Even

total support that can be provided is ?12 million short of the

estimated ?50 million needed to fully mitigate the Bedroom Tax in

Scotland. The deputy first minister wrote to Lord Freud to ask them to

remove the cap on the additional funding we can provide. That is a

simple thing for Westminster to do at absolutely no cost to them and

could be completed by the 1st of April. Was that the first time the

Scottish Government had formally requested the lifting of the? -- the

cap. The issues have been discussed at various meetings but the first

formal request was in the letter we issued on Friday. That was John

Swinney speaking in the debate on the budget. Some interesting

information on the mitigating effect of the Bedroom Tax. After a long

process, the Scottish Parliament has voted in favour of legalising

same-sex marriage. The legislation was passed last night by 105 votes

to 18, despite opposition from a small number of MSPs and religious

groups. The first same-sex marriages could take place this

year. Religions can already refuse to marry people. Or me, this bill is

about equality, fairness and social justice. -- for me. They are values

instilled in us by our parents, community, society. It is also about

how we see ourselves as a nation, and how others see us. There has

been a huge change in my lifetime, from the brittle atmosphere that

existed in respect of gay people when I was a young man, gay people

who felt they had to strangle their sexuality. I know some of these

people, I'm in the Tory Party, after all. But I regard today as a

fantastic, celebratory change in the mood, style and signature of my

country, Scotland. Ideally, we all want a society where everyone is

treated equally and minority views are tolerated if not welcomed,

however, the fear among some people is might see a switch from LG BT

people being discriminated against two religious or other people being

discriminated against. We see some of the other countries where the

fight for equality is not about pensions and inheritance. It is

about life and death. I believe it is important, as we welcome some

countries where people are struggling with that question of

life and death, as we welcome some of those countries to Glasgow, we

take pride in telling the particular story of Scotland's progress from a

country that felt it was unable to decriminalise homosexuality at the

same time as the rest of the UK, from societies in which in Glasgow

and Edinburgh people felt it was not safe to have a march, progress to

this. Men and women have new cars to hope for their future, the wondrous

possibilities that present themselves. -- new cause. I have

cause for optimism for my future, perhaps a personal advert in the

Scotsman. 45-year-old male seeks husband to share his life and

passions, must like a good debate but not take himself too seriously.

Presiding Officer, I jest, but this is a profound moment in the nation.

While we do not live in a society yet free from discrimination, this

is a creating a Scotland based on the

first principles of fairness and justice for all. This bill

diminishes the deeply held views of those who consider marriage between

a man and a woman and there is nothing fair in causing those

opposed to same-sex marriage to feel apprehensive about expressing this

view, yet this is the situation which will now prevail in Scotland.

I was christened in the United free Church and married there, but I

always remember the philosophy in that village and in many villages,

if we had a model, it was to live and let live. -- motto. My belief is

that people of the same sex can only fully live out their aspirations,

potential, show their love, I being able to marry their partner, the

person they love of the same sex. -- by being able. But also, let live,

let live those who want to get married to someone of the same sex,

who want to perform the marriages of people with the same sex, but also,

let live those in favour of that, those who will not because of

religious belief, do not force them to do something they don't want to

do, and if ever there was something that summed it up, it is live and

let live. I believe when the history of this Parliament is written,

today, if we pass this bill, as I believe we will, this will be one

today, if we pass this bill, as I Parliament, not just because of the

provisions of the bill but because of the message the bill sends out

about the new Scotland we are creating in the 21st century, as

Scotland where we all believe in live and let live. APPLAUSE.

The result of the vote in the name of Alex Neill is as follows. Yes,

105, No, 18. There were no abstentions. The bill is passed.

APPLAUSE. That was the debate yesterday. Now

the main story, the budget debate live in the chamber. Let us listen

in. They were adamant that this was it UK Government measure and he

would not let them off the hook. It was the 80,000 households affected

who were left on the hook of the Bedroom Tax, and in fairness, by

October, the government had relented and found ?20 million in the budget.

Still short of what was required. In December, the Cabinet Secretary

argued Social Security legislation meant this could not be further

increased, and when I argued otherwise, I also recall the Deputy

first Minister, from a sedentary position, heckling me with the cry,

where is the money coming from? The fact is, I always had confidence in

John Swinney, more confidence it would seem that his Cabinet

colleagues, confident he would seem that his Cabinet

the fund to complete the total ?50 million

the fund to complete the total ?50 the cost of the Bedroom Tax to

Scottish tenants. This week, the same Deputy first Minister popped up

in the daily record to say the money was there, as John Swinney is

confirmed. The DWP must be lifted. We have always said that there are

other legitimate ways to use this money to help the victims of the

Bedroom Tax. Last week, we presented to the Cabinet Secretary a proposal

for an additional scheme with two elements, one for local authorities

and one for housing associations. The proof that this can work is that

it already does. In Renfrewshire Council and East Lothian housing

association, both have been checked by audit Scotland and lawyers. They

write off small amounts of arrears rather than paying penance and do

not fall foul of benefit legislation. I welcome his

acceptance of the intervention. I wonder if Iain Gray would reflect on

what is more desirable response to the difficulties individual s face,

is it to increase discretionary payments or to let people fall into

debt and then write off the arrears? It is clearly always better to avoid

debt but the important thing is come what may, we do the thing which we

want to do, and I have to say that the Cabinet Secretary has considered

the scheme presented to him with the Cabinet Secretary has considered

understandable caution but a the Cabinet Secretary has considered

amendment reflects those discussions that we have had. With thanks to

Renfrewshire Council and East Lothian housing association for

their help, we are almost there. The full funding is in place and if the

DWP restriction remains then a workable alternative exists is, and

the amendment in Dorset is the position. Like Mr Swinney, I want to

see the abolition of this policy. -- endorses. I want to see it abolished

by a Labour government next year. I understand that Mr Swinney and his

colleagues want to see it abolished in 2016 in an independent Scotland.

I think my way is better, cause it will lift the York from tenants in

London and Manchester and Birmingham. -- yoke.

To be honest, I think those affected are not too worried about who does

it, and we can decide today that no household in Scotland need pay the

Bedroom Tax and none should face eviction because of it and we

should. To do that, we must act justly, love kindness and what

humbly and support the amendment. Act justly because most of the

victims cannot choose to move to a smaller house because there are no

such houses available to them. Justly, because with full funding,

there is no need to choose who to help and who not to help. Justly,

because this protection from eviction will extend towards

because this protection from tenants and not just tenants of

councils with no eviction policies. As for kindness, to support this

amendment is to explicitly reject the cruelty of an all too common

rhetoric which suggests that those affected by welfare reforms are

feckless benefit scroungers living in palatial accommodation. The truth

is, most families affected by the Bedroom Tax are working, 80% of

family members -- 80% have a family member with a disability, and the

spare room is needed for medical equipment or carers.

Both we and the Government will have to walk Humpleby today. They will

have to set aside the constitutional argument and accept that getting

tenants off the hook is more important than leaving Whitehall on

it. While we must acknowledge that in this, at least, the Government

has not left Scotland on pause, but has acted and done the right thing.

Now, even greater humility will be required if the Tories or Liberal

Democrats are to support our amendment tonight. Given that it is

only needed because of the wrong headed policy of their Westminster

colleagues. I hope that they will consider it. Presiding officer,

yesterday was a good day for this parliament. In the passing of the

equal marriage act, we rose to the singular historic moment. We were

the parliament we were meant to be, shaping a more modern, ive Scotland.

Today, we can rise above party difference again and do the right

thing again, this time, in response, not to the historical moment, but to

the daily, relentless, unfair, difficulties and challenges of life

faced by far too many of our fellow citizens. We can be the parliament

we were set up to be again today, exercising our power to protect our

people. To paraphrase, the nearest thing this place has to a prophet of

his own, I can hear him snorting at the description, we can carry

ourselves well again today. Was Labour's Ian Gray. You can watch the

rest of that debate live or on demand at BBC Scotland's Democracy

Live website, that's bbc.co.uk/democracylive. Let us

speak to our commentator David Clegg once again. From the Daily Record,

the political editor. Interesting watching that debate. A strong

speech from Ian Gray there, building up the opposition to the so-called

bedroom tax? That is about passionate and motivated as you see

him in the chamber. I thought he spoke very well. The politics of

this is very interesting. John Swinney's whole budget he outlined

there, it is a budget for independence. It is, here's what the

UK Government are doing, here is what we are doing differently,

imagine what we could do with independence. By getting rid of the

bedroom tax they undermine that argument. I think it's very

interesting. They will do it because they have to do it and because I

think morally they want to do it. It's an interesting day of politics

there. Do you think the SNP were frustrated they were able to get rid

of it in this way because it's maybe going against the grain, the

narrative of, look at what Westminster is doing, we can do

things better if we have the full powers? N-a cynical moment I think

that argument can be made. I'm going to be uncharacteristically uncynical

and say, no I think they will be glad to get rid of. It They are

still saying that removele the cap on Discretionary Housing Payments is

the best way to do this. I think they are right about that. There

will be difficulties with the alternatives and whether it will get

swiftly to the people through these other methods is vague to me. It's

happening. Confusing about how this money will be allocated to people

because we are hearing from John Swinney saying the UK Government had

the cap of course. David Mindell said in the House of Commons today,

in a question from the SNP MP, the issue was debated in detail

yesterday. She should know that the Scottish Government has the powers

to take measures if they genuinely believe there are concerns with

welfare policies. It's like the UK Government thought the Scottish

Government could tackle this? They are trying to have their cake and

eat it. There he is saying you can still do this. He is not explaining

how it's done and they are seemingly, I mean they haven't seen

the letter back from Lord Freud, the UK minister responsible for this,

I'm being told they are not going to lift. It one of the reasons that you

want to lift it is because it allows you to allocate it in different

ways. It's done through local authorities. Aberdeen may have more

need of this than Aberdeenshire. If the cap goes entirely it can be

allocated in a more efficient method. He said do it another way.

Lift the cap, why don't you do it. We talked about Labour and the SNP,

what about the other UK coalition parties, as it were, in the chamber

at Holyrood. The Conservatives are almost left out in the cold, not

ving for it. The Liberal Democrats voting for it essentially

criticising UK Government policy, I suppose? They are in an awkward

position suppose? They are in an awkward

the bedroom tax is suppose? They are in an awkward

have to support it because their Westminster colleagues are voting

for it. You get the impression they are not comfortable with it. You

would say if there were actual Liberal Democrats they would be.

However, we should give credit to Willie Renny who pushed the

childcare issue relentlessly since he was in the parliament he got a

great result in the budget in that regard where the free childcare

entitlement has gone up considerably. For that alone I think

the Liberal Democrats will be happy to vote for him. Thank you very much

To Prime Minister's Questions now. David Cameron told MPs he'll ensure

that vulnerable communities receive all the support they need to deal

with the threat of flooding. That was prompted by a question from the

Labour leader, Ed Miliband, who then quickly moved onto the Tories' track

record on women. The Prime Minister said in 2014 he was going to lead

the way on women's equality. Can the Prime Minister tell us, how is that

going in the Conservative Party? First of all, let me just go back to

the very important issue of flooding. I want to... I'm glad he

is asking me about constituency selection. I want to clarify the

point about flooding. If you look at the period 2014-2014 when this

Government was in office the funding was ?2.4 billion more than when

Labour were in office. On the important issue of getting more

women into public life. Yes, this is fantastically important for our

country because we will not represent or govern our country

properly unless we have more women at every level in our public life

and in our politics. Now, I'm proud of the fact

and in our politics. Now, I'm proud women MPs has gone from 17 to 48,

but we need to do much more. Look at the all male frontbench before us.

He says he wants to represent the whole country. Mr Speaker, I guess

they didn't let women into the Bull ngdon Club either. He said a third

of his ministers would be women. He is nowhere near meeting the target.

Half of the women he appointed as ministers after the election have

resigned or been sacked. His Cabinet, get this, Mr Speaker, in

his Cabinet there as many men who went to Eton or Westminster as

women. That is the picture. Does he think it's his fault that the

Conservative Party has a problem with women? He is interested in the

figures. Let me give him the figures. Of the full members of the

Cabinet who are Conservatives. 24%, a quarter of them are women. Not

enough. I want to see that grow. Of the frontbench, frontbench

ministers, of the Conservatives, around 20% are women, that is below

what I want to achieve in 33%. We are making progress and we'll make

more progress. Let me make this point. This party is proud of the

fact that we had a woman Prime Minister. Yes. Yes. To be fair to

the Labour Party, they have had some interim leaders who are women, but

they have this habit of replacing them with totally ineffective men.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Royal Mail shares are currently trading at

387p, 80% higher than the Government sold iroff their share. Does he

believe his Government properly valued Royal Mail and

believe his Government properly was set at the best deal to get the

best deal for the taxpayer? I think the Government did a good job to

best deal for the taxpayer? I think private-sector capital into Royal

Mail, something which frankly has evaded the governments of all

colours and all persuasions for decades. I well remember sitting on

that side of the House and hearing about the appalling losses in Royal

Mail, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of pounds. The fact that

it's well managed, well run with private-sector capital in in it is a

great development for our country. In the Chancellor's budget of 2012

he made an announcement for tax breaks for the computer games

industry. It was passed last April. We have heard nothing. It hes having

a detrimental effect on industry. Can the Prime Minister and the

Chancellor do something to address this delay? I absolute slid share

his frustration. It's perfectly within a Government's rights to set

out a way of helping and supporting vital industries like this that is

are so important for the future of our country. We are discussing it

with the European Commission, we are hopeful of good news to come

shortly. That was Prime Minister Prime Minister's Questions. Our

Westminster correspondent, David Porter, is standing by at Portcullis

House for us now to pick up on some Scottish political issues that are

making the headlines. David. Thank you very much, indeed. We are in

Portcullis House because the weather is bad in London. Nothing like some

of the flooding and the problems we have seen elsewhere in the UK, but

we thought we would be kind to our guests today and let them stay in

the dry. My guests are Gordon Brang for Labour, Sir Malcolm Bruce for

the Liberal Democrats and Mike Weir for the SNP. There is an independent

Scotland, people in Scotland will pay more for their energy bills,

what is the rational behind that? It's a significant

what is the rational behind that? attracts a third of the UK

investment in re ewable energy but pays through bill payers 10% of

that. If Scotland was independent, the rest of the UK couldn't possibly

be expected to pick up that slack. Citigroup estimated that could be

?875 on to each and every bill? Scotland. That is a significant

intervention and a significant problem for Scottish bill payers and

the renewable energy. Your opponents will say, Scotland has the potential

to be an energy powerhouse in the long run, Scotland would give more

than it gets back? Only if it can develop it. They can only develop it

if they fund it. This intervention by Caroline proves how fragile that

is. If that is added to every bill in significant that is a significant

impact on the cost of living in Scotland. Is that an ark ument you

buy on behalf of the Liberal Democrats and an MP who represents a

constituency which has quite important energy interests? I think

it's another of those uncertainties about independence. The reality is,

it's true that the investment is being funded by UK taxpayers. In the

long run, the question is whether they will be prepared to do that.

Scotland may export to the UK, it has to do a deal. One. Things that

has to be answered all along is, autumn the promises have been made

those in favour of independence how it will be, depending on the rest of

the UK agreeing. That is not in Scotland's gift. It's not in the

Scottish nationalist gift. People in Scotland when they vote have to

recognise they will find themselves effectively in a situation where

they have to influence the rest of the UK. That is a good reason for

staying in I would argue rather than going out. We have heard there that

actually people in Scotland could be potentially a lot worse off or

having to pay higher energy bills? potentially a lot worse off or

the contract for difference works. potentially a lot worse off or

difference is not bill payers in one part of the country subsidising the

other. It's the cheapest option for everybody. It works by guaranteeing

a price for the energy. Energy comes from all over the place, UK

Government, for example, are entering into an agreement for wind

energy from Ireland. The rest of the UK has a problem, what does it do,

do it take energy from Scotland or is it blinkered it wants to take it

from the Europe that it wants to get out of and spend billions upon

billions on new connectors. The rest of the UK needs Scotland's are you

newable energy they will be locked into expensive nuclear power and the

myth of fracking. Is there is no guarantee that if

Scotland went independent the rest of the UK would want to take energy

from Scotland. They need to look at where the best option for energy is,

that is continuing the energy market through the interconnector. It is

the only one that makes sense. There are already getting into trouble in

Europe, with the state aids difficulties. The UK government are

going down the route of massively expensive nuclear power which will

put out bills throughout Scotland if that goes because that is what they

are relying on. Renewable is working in Scotland, we have the most in

Europe and it makes sense to come together on this and do a deal and I

don't see there would be any great difficulty on that. It takes two to

make a deal. On so many issues, the SNP are saying we will have an

agreement, maybe we will, maybe we won't, it will be hard bargaining,

uncertain, it will take time and the whole of the UK will have a vote on

this, not just Scotland. Keeping with the energy theme, you mentioned

the term uncertainty, that was used yesterday by the boss of BP, saying

there could be uncertainties in an independent Scotland. I worried

should people be about this? I think what was said yesterday was just

backing up what the government and Bank of England said, that there are

significant uncertainties for Scotland going independent, and

these cannot be answered by the SNP, they have to be cantered with an

agreement -- decided with an agreement between the rest of the UK

and an independent Scotland. There is no guarantee that these will be

reached in the way that the SNP cross their fingers and hope they

will be. Going back to the point, why should the rest of the UK bill

payers finance and develop and pay for a renewable industry in Scotland

when they can get the renewable energy from elsewhere on the

continent? It doesn't make sense to stand here and say that the rest of

the UK will buy the renewable energy from Scotland. BP is the largest

employer in my constituency. I know for a fact that many people in the

oil industry are very concerned. The fact is, we have to compete for

investment globally, if you add in cost and uncertainty, you will look

and say, maybe we will invest in Scotland but maybe we will invest

elsewhere. It adds another uncertainty into the decision-making

in competitive market. I'm afraid, that is absolute nonsense. Look at

the latest round of that is absolute nonsense. Look at

investment coming into the North Sea, huge interest in it. What the

BP chairman cites as an uncertainty is links with Europe. It is the

Conservative government that wants to get out of Europe. Coming back to

the points about energy, the UK could choose to take energy from

France if it wants, there will be investment into interconnector is

because it could not carry that energy. The reality is the

infrastructure is there, the systems will be there, it is a sensible way

to deal with it, and when the mist clears, everybody will see sense.

Brief question to each of you, is it right that businessmen get involved

in the referendum debate? Absolutely, business has got a role

to play in the referendum and businesses should be able to enter

into the debate, make their points clear, without fear of reprisal from

the Scottish government or anybody else. I absolutely agree, and I am

concerned that many businesses are fearful, they feel they are being

bullied and prejudiced, it is good that it takes one of the Chief

Executive is to speak out. Business is a part of the discussion, there

are 1400 members of business for Scotland, the pro-independence

business group. As this is on both sides of the debate, not one or the

other, and it is right that they make their views known, but this is

a debate we should all have throughout Scotland. Thank you. We

end on a point of agreement, businesses should get involved in

the referendum debate. I'm joined by David Clegg once

again. I'm joined by David Clegg once

about BP. Interesting that he chose to step forward and speak about the

uncertainty. I think it is a significant intervention, he is the

most significant businessmen to enter the debate so far, massive

employer. What I find quite interesting is he is not the only

one. There has been quite a few interventions from businesses. We

had the outgoing chief executive of Sainsbury is talking about his

concerns about independence. Up till now, the Better Together campaign

have been pretty upset privately that businesses have not had more to

say about this, because privately they tend to either express

misgivings. I think the recent speech from Mark Carney has put a

rocket up these businesses and I think we will see more of these

kinds of interventions. The prounion MPs were making the point that some

businesses feel they have been bullied into not speaking, but

others are quite worried about not wanting to offend their customers.

It is probably good business sense not to speak. Bully is a strong word

to use without evidence. It is obviously a very feeble rail debate,

very passionate, -- febrile. Businesses are wary of getting

involved because the upsides are limited. Mike Weir was making the

point that the withdrawal from the EU also causes uncertainty.

Certainly, what we have at the minute is the independence

referendum is closer on the horizon so that is more in the forefront of

their so that is more in the forefront of

businesses talking about uncertainty so that is more in the forefront of

caused it this, we will see them saying it about the EU referendum.

When you saw Alex Salmond's reaction, you did not look best

pleased. He said BP make a lot of money from using Scotland's

resources. They do make a lot of money. I can understand why Alex

Salmond would be upset because it is pretty damaging, the fact that they

also employ a lot of people and generate a lot of money, I don't

think he was suggesting they should not have something to say about it,

but it is a case that they should be very willing. Thank you. BBC

Scotland investigations have found fraud in the NHS has risen by 42% in

the last few years. A Freedom of information request recorded ?2

million of fraud by health workers and patients. It has been estimated

the actual cost could be ?800 million a year. Fiona Walker begins

the report with a look at dental fraud. This person's teeth were

being damaged. The dentist was carrying out work that was not

necessary. You have an onward spiral, doing more treatment, to the

deterioration of the treatment. We are told, each time he did this it

made him more money. This is the dentist he is talking about. Stewart

Craig. Not only was he struck off, he was convicted for fraud against

the NHS in court for claiming the cost of gold crowns when he fitted

cheaper ones. I am ashamed that any cost of gold crowns when he fitted

The fraud was officially recorded at cost of gold crowns when he fitted

just over ?2000 by cost of gold crowns when he fitted

health board. But the NHS actually believed he conned them out of

?750,000. They are now pursuing the money. What is recorded as fraud is

not the whole picture. A leading expert says his calculations show us

the true scale of this kind of crime. We are currently finding just

under 7% on average of expenditure is lost to fraud. 7% of the whole

NHS budget? That is what I would expect to see. That is ?800 million

a year. That is enough to pay for 70 -- 37,000 new nurses. The

consequences are pure care for all of us when we are sick when we need

it most. -- poor care. Behind-the-scenes, it is the job

under investigators -- job of investigators to put them off. We

are focusing on deterrence or people do not commit the fraud. It protects

the health service. The NHS says Stewart Craig has not paid back up

any of the money they say he owns them. We discovered he has moved

property out of his name and has not responded to our letters. You can

watch the programme in full tonight on BBC One Scotland. Some final

thoughts from David Clegg. Quite astonishing to see the extent of

fraud. 37,000 nurses, 60 hospitals. It must be a huge worry. On the face

of it, it is staggering. 7% of the budget, especially at a time when we

of it, it is staggering. 7% of the pushed, nursing colleges are saying

they are pushed to the very limit. I look forward to seeing the full

thing tonight but on the face of it that looks very concerning. In some

ways, politicians will say things need to be done but what can you do?

I'm not going to be undertaking any fraud audit, but it certainly looks

like, if it is on that scale, it must be so rife that you feel it can

be clamped down on. One thing you hear about the NHS is that it can be

wasteful and inefficient, so perhaps this is one of the things that is

happening, they do not have the same safeguards. In the closing minutes

of the programme, one final issue, Ed Miliband changing the leader

voting system for the Labour Party, moving to one member, one vote. This

is not the system that voted him in in the first place. He would

certainly not be the leader if the system he is bringing in was in

place. I think he has been forced into this. The Falkirk episode was

such a disgrace and has been an ongoing headache, it will not go

away and we saw it in the news again this week. Quite opportunistically,

somebody has leaked that at the right time, but when you have seen

the allegations going on there, this public perception of it was such

that he needed to take action. They will want to do something about it.

So this will be approved at a special conference in March but of

course it will not come in for another five years. It is being

phased in gradually. The main concern is union affiliated members

and how they parliamentary selection processes.

He has said that some people wanted to review it after that five-year

period so they could see how it was working, but that is not going to

happen. It sounds like he will win that battle. We will have to leave

it there. That is all we have time for. Holyrood is on holiday next

week so we don't have a programme but we will be back the following

week. Goodbye.