05/09/2012 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to the first Politics Scotland of the

parliamentary session. Coming up: Alex Salmond reshuffles his

ministerial team not what big changes at the top Nicola Sturgeon

task with overseeing constitutional change.

The record of this parliament is the clearest possible evidence that

unless people take decisions about the future of Scotland we need to

give people the choice of independence. We need to give

ourselves responsibility is a nation in the world and a

Government that reflects the people's priorities and Scottish

values. And Europe Westminster as David

Cameron completes his reshuffle just what will it mean in the fight

to kick-start the economy? Good afternoon. Alex Salmond has

conducted a major reshuffle of his ministerial team. There were

rumours of it this morning and just after 1pm the new team were

announced and you it is. The biggest change is Nicola Sturgeon

being appointed as Infrastructure Secretary. She has passed without

taking a key responsibility in the economy and overlooking the

constitution. Alex Neil now takes on the health brief. Bruce Crawford

is retiring as secretary and Bryan Adams will also exit as Minister of

parliamentary business. Their roles will be taken on by Joe Fitzpatrick

from Dundee West. Another departure it is Stewart Stevenson who is

leaving his climate change brief and is represented by this man from

the South of Sir Scotland. There are couple of new faces joining as

well. Humza Yousaf from Glasgow comes a Minister for External

Affairs and International Development Welt Margaret Burgess

who represents Cunninghame South is going to welfare. It is go across

to our Political Correspondent Raymond Buchanan who is standing at

parliament in Scotland. Why has there been a need for a reshuffle?

We have an obvious timetable set up by Alex Salmond which says that he

wants to will their independence referendum in the autumn of 2014. A

lot of focus will be on at Nicola Sturgeon is new duties in charge of

the constitution. She will now take responsibility for that strategy.

Her job will be to win and yes vote in the autumn of 2014. She is used

to handling controversial subjects, she handled the swine flu epidemic

and recently same-sex marriage and also the Scottish Parliament or for

two parliaments with minimum pricing on argol. Now she has been

handed by her close colleague Alex Salmond the biggest challenge of a

political career. Let us look at the thinking behind the reshuffle.

And now it joined by big Cabinet secretary for finance. What is

Nicola Sturgeon is change of role telling us about this Government's

strategy ahead? It tells us that the Government is focused entirely

on its twin purposes of delivering economic recovery and winning a yes

vote in the referendum and pitting their argument to the people of

Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon his new role will marry together those

responsibilities and as we know from her record as a long-standing

and very effective health secretary she will do that with significant

gusto. What was she bring to the negotiations with the UK Government

author and any questions they should be in their referendum? What

can she do that Bruce Crawford cannot? Bruce Crawford has taking a

stand down for his own personal reasons which we can all understand.

He has served that the Government of brilliantly over the last five

years but has made his own decision to step aside. Nicola Sturgeon will

be taking forward the negotiations that Rhys Crockfords dead. She is

looking at the end game and we are involved in that endgame. -- an

Bruce Crawford dent. She is looking to seal their agreement between at

the Scottish and UK Government. Also bringing in new blood at the

lower ranks. What is that in that? Is it about giving hope to the mass

numbers of MSPs elected in 2011? is about making sure that we use

the talent as effectively as we can do. When we addressed the people at

lunchtime and set out their changes that Alex Salmond wanted to make it

was clear the he had a long list of people that he could have appointed

but he did not at the vacancies to deal with every possibility. In

appointing Joe Fitzpatrick as the new Minister for or parliamentary

business who is a new Staffa and the involvement of Margaret Burgess

looking at welfare reform issues where she has a fantastic track

record of active working to support on a boat people in our society, it

really strengthens our team as we embark on meeting the challenges

that lie ahead and preparing Scotland for economic recovery and

winning the referendum. Is this shuffling just where people sit

around the Cabinet table or is it showing a change in economic

policy? It signals the Government's determination to ensure that we

have the people in the right place to deliver the Government's agenda.

We have Nicola Sturgeon working very closely with me on economic

recovery as I was working there for a with Alex Neil. We're looking to

deliver the referendum for the Government. Alex Neil is moving

into the health brief and is one of the Cabinet's strongest members.

What is important is that we have people in the right jobs using

their skills and their talents and I think the first Minister has made

a very strong decision in that respect today. Nicola Sturgeon has

made clear her personal preference is for one question referendum. It

is clear that there is not much to negotiate with with the UK

Government. We should have a one question referendum in at the

autumn of 2014. We certainly should have it in the autumn of 2014. It

is going to be in their autumn of 2014. And that way at that issue

settled. On the questions. The Government is involved in a

consultation exercise and we are assessing those consultation

responses and will determine what is the right way to proceed after

that. What is important is that we take forward an orderly approach to

the referendum that is what we're always wanted to do is that is what

we're going to do. A pot of those stairs MSPs have gathered to listen

to a debate and one of those contributors to that debate is

Nicola Sturgeon. Raymond Buchanan, Thank you very

much. We will renew Nicola Sturgeon sharply but first ball let us go to

John Curtice from Strathclyde University for some analysis. It is

economy and referendum, isn't it? That is absolutely right. What

became clear from Alex Salmon's statement yesterday was that the

SNP are not going to win the referendum unless they can persuade

the public that Scotland's economy will be stronger as an independent

country. To be able to do that the SNP need to be able to demonstrate

that they have someone who can deliver economic growth. I think it

is most undoubtedly are crucial reason why this change has happened,

it means that these two parts of the police have been brought

together and he's trying to say to Scotland, we are not ignoring their

it economy by doing the constitution, the constitutional

issue and the economic issue goes together. It does also have one

interesting consequence, it means that in so far as you regard Nicola

Sturgeon as one of the top big hitters of his Government, she is

no longer going to have to deal with the same-sex marriage issue

which has led to controversy and that will go to Alex Neil. That is

a diversion of her time and political energies and that has now

been avoided. It does have caused raised this question, that all the

sudden apparently, we are in their endgame of the negotiations with

then the argument between the UK Government and the Scottish

Government over the conduct of the referendum. The junior minister at

-- Minister of the Scottish Office is now pulling out of that. Now

we're looking to see how far those negotiations ever got. We might not

have expected a change of personnel at this point in time. What are we

looking at you? Does Alex Salmond want to it have something to

announce at the SNP conference in mid-October? That is an obvious

deadline. They did indicate that the Government was expecting to

announce its response to the consultation conducted over this

year and next month. It could well therefore be in the first have of

October. They could be choreographing it at the same time

as the Scottish Government announces its consultation and it

will tell us the result of the endgame which is either going to be

an agreement with the UK Government transferring to the Holyrood

parliament more power or whether it at the end of these knitters

Nations they might not have come to anything. Well they still proceed

to the referendum in that order? I think it will be a lot easier at

that time, all those ministers are trying to fend of those questions

over whether decisions have been made, the to face this issue of the

SNP wanting to change the party policies for an independent

Scottish motion later. The we're going to Nicola Sturgeon live in

Holyrood. Let me take the opportunity since

it is available to me to see a few words about the Government changes

made by the first minister today. The first thing I want to save from

the bottom of my heart is that it has been an extraordinary privilege

to serve as Scotland's Health Secretary of it these past five

years. I am very proud of what has been achieved in those five years.

It has been very challenging times. We have the lowest waiting times on

record and the lowest hospital infection rates in Redcar it and

we're patient care that is sacred than it has ever been before. I am

particularly proud to have steered through this Parliament the ground-

breaking legislation on a minimum pricing which is a world leading. I

hope to see that implemented as soon as possible.

APPLAUSE. I want to thank everybody that I

have had the privilege of working with, the officials at the Scottish

Government, the cheers of health boards and trade unions, interest

groups and above all else those who work in the front line of our

health service. We are so incredibly lucky in our Health

Service and in those who work in our health service. I am

particularly proud of having been able to protect not just the Budget

of our National Health Service but the founding principles. I know

that Alex Neil will continue to do just that as he takes over as

health secretary. I am also extremely excited to be taking on

new responsibilities in Government and new responsibilities I take

over as of today that reflect very closely that when priorities of the

programme for Government the first minister outlined yesterday. That

is the programme for Government that the debate today. I will be

very pleased to work with the first minister and with John Swinney on

the Government's strategy for economic recovery and in that

regard and look forward what man is doing it -- ministerial colleagues

to Margaret Thatcher's her particularly welcome to the new

post as Minister for Housing and Welfare. I look forward to working

with them to put cure it the better regulation Bell and as well as

other priorities. In taking on the this responsibility and have very

big boots to fill. Those that are in the shape of Alex Neil and I see

that in the hope that he says the same about his predecessor in the

new role that he takes on today. Nothing could be more important in

this time than responding to the real pressures that individuals and

families across Scotland are facing. We to do everything we can within

our powers and resources to get her economy growing and to create jobs.

We need to challenge as vigorously as we can at the disastrous

economic policy of the Tory and Liberal coalition. I repeat today

the message already sent loudly and clearly by the first minister to

the UK Government. Our economy needs more capital stimulus and it

needs it now. We have projects incumbent on their it UK Government

to provide the funds were. If they care little about the human cost of

unemployment then they will not I want to do so much more than

lobby an unresponsive UK Government for a sane economic policy. I want

to be in a government with the power to make for ourselves the

decisions we need to take to get our economy growing, and that

brings me to the second part of my new Government responsibilities. I

have believed for all of my adult life that Scotland should be an

independent nation. For me, it's never really been about flags or

status symbols. It's all about how we make this country of ours the

best that it possibly can be. It's based on the fundamental belief

that if we want a strong economy, we must have access to all of

Scotland's resources - not just to that portion of Scotland's

resources that the UK Government chooses to give us. It's based on

the inescapable reality if we want to tackle once and for all the

scandalous child poverty, then we must be able to make our own

decisions on tax and benefits, and Presiding Officer, we must be able

to prioritise spending on the early years of our children's lives over

spending on weapons of mass destruction. And it's based on -

APPLAUSE It's based on the irrefutable logic

that if it is right and it is right for this Parliament to take

decisions on health, education, on justice, then how can it be

anything other than right for this Parliament also to take decisions

on the economy, on welfare and defence? I believe passionately

that the best people to take decisions about Scotland are those

who live here, and Presiding Officer, I look forward immensely

with my colleagues to making that honest - that positive and that

upbeat case over these next two years, and I look forward to

winning that independence referendum in 2014.

APPLAUSE Many, many thanks. And now I call

on Richard Baker. Presiding Officer, just as I was

putting the finishing touches on this speech over lunch, so much has

happened. Indeed this appears to be rather monexcitement in the lobby

and on particular on the SNP benches over the Scottish Cabinet

reshuffle and this legislative programme which is entirely

understandable, but while I welcome Nicola Sturgeon to her new role at

Infrastructure and Capital Investment this central move of the

reshuffle also reflects what is at the heart of the legislative

programme announced yesterday that at the end of the day, for the SNP,

breaking up the United Kingdom is the be-all-and-end-all. Nicola

Sturgeon has quit the health brief so she can spend more time on

debating independence. I can tell her that the infrastructure and

capital investment brief isn't only time-consuming, it is also crucial.

Officer, idea like to tell you how sorry I am to see Mr Neil move on

from that role to his new role. But I think we all know that would be

stretching the bounds of credibility, something Mr Neil does

himself all too often, but actually, I do wish him well, but Mr Neil's...

I do. No, I don't. But it also speaks to where this legislative

programme fails too because while we look forward with interest to

this procurement bill, this Government's underperformance has

been damaging to our economy and key sectors including the

construction industry. When it comes to the key issue of the

economy too often we have had warm words and not the action required

from the Scottish Government. Yesterday, the First Minister

talked again about shovel-ready projit, his own Government has

delayed a host of key infrastructure projects at a time

when our construction sector is crying out for work.

Mr McDonald. I am grateful to Mr Baker for giving way. Over the

summer I wrote to Mr Baker asking him if he's Labour's capital

investment spokesperson would back the calls from the Scottish

Government for shovel-ready projects to be brought forward by

the UK Government. To date I have received no reply. Perhaps he'd

like to give me the answer. didn't get a letter but what I

would say to him is keep trying, Mark. Eventually you'll get. There

persistence will pay off! You shouldn't be too disappointed about

today. But if I don't... Order. I don't get a letter, I really

can't - can't reply to it, so yesterday - so we find out, you

know, in terms of the construction and capital investment - should be

taking place, we find out today that on the basis of a draft report,

the budget for the Edinburgh to Glasgow improvement plan was cut by

�350 million. In Aberdeen our energy sector requires 120,000 new

recruits. Where's the plan to deal with that crucial issue for the

economy not just of ander gien, Scotland? The report from Price-

Waterhouse Cooper is for an energy academy at the same time as the SNP

college budgets. They are withdrawing support for new

development in the City. In doing so, failing Aberdeen again. No. In

the last Parliament we were told that the overarching purpose of

this Government was economic growth, and to emphasise this point, it was

referred to as "the purpose" with a capital T and a capital P, but this

debate has shown that this is a Government with its eye all the

ball of the economy and whose purpose now is solely preparation

with a capital S. We'll engage with the sustainable procurement bill,

but again and again Mr Neil told us he couldn't take the action we need

on procurement because of the European Union. The action we need

to ensure - through the use of community benefit clauses in

creating smaller contracts we give small and medium-sized enterprises

in Scotland batter chance from benefiting from public sector

investment and through that our growing economy. Far if blocking

such action the EU is proposing a directive which state contracting

authorities should be able to allow contracting -- to divide lots. Why

aren't the Scottish Government doing this already? This doesn't

need a bill? Why in fact are they still doing the opposite and

creating contracts so big, only big business can bid for them?

Yesterday the First Minister said we'll put - I'd better take it.

thank the member for taking the intervention. Can I just point out

to him - and let me confuse him with some facts. 75% of all the

contracts let through the Scottish Government's porthole go to small

and medium-sized enterprises. Neil never lets the facts get in

the way or confuses him. I'll refer him to the Jimmy Reid Foundation

report which contradicts many of the statements he's made on

procurement. Yesterday the First Minister said we'll put community

benefit clauses into every public sector contract. The question is

why hasn't that been done already because unfortunately on the Forth

replacement crossing the shipping firms have already lost out. We

also know how important to the economy our construction - and to

our construction industry new housing is, yet the last budget

slashed housing investment by �86 million. The vaunted housing bill

in this programme is conspicuous by its absence. It's not good enough

to say this will all be sorted out after separation, as if that were

free us from the Tory Government when the SNP's proposal on monetary

policy is future UK governments of whatever political complexion will

still make key decisions on our economy with zero influence from

Ministers of Scotland. A final moment. Separation is their

suggestion, but it's no solution. This programme of bills and the

events of today show this administration has its eye well and

truly off the ball when it comes to taking the action we need to -

Scotland to growth. In conclusion that's why we need to get beyond

the process of the referendum and get on with making - when Scotland

has decided to making its reputation in the UK we can all get

on with what we're doing in this Parliament, delivering for the

people. It's Scotland's version of the Queen's Speech, Alex Salmond

set out his priorities for the year ahead at Holyrood yesterday. Let's

speak to Professor John Curtice once again. Let's go through some

of the main themes. What shined out yeat you when Mr Salmond was

setting out his priorities? In the past I have been critical of their

programmes, looking rather liefgt even last year when they had a

majority it wasn't clear what they were doing with it. In truth,

despite the Unionists coming up with the rather obvious argument,

they're just interested in independence and nothing else,

actually, this looks quite a substantial legislative programme.

There is of course same-sex marriage which undoubtedly is the

one thing that's going to attract headlines. That's one of the things

Alex Salmond was able to wrap up into a reasonably coherent

narrative which was the idea of creating a fairer Scotland but

there are other bills, health and social care integration - one of

the long-standing problems that's beset governments north and south

of the border of how do we deal with somebody who is in hospital,

and are they going to need social care to get them out of hospital -

how do we achieve greater coordination of those two

resources? There is now a bill to see if that nut can finally be

cracked. There are also two very important bills that actually pave

the way for the Scottish Parliament becoming for the first time in its

life something of a significant fax-raising body in the

implementation of a new Scotland act. One is going to pave the way

for the abolition of stamp duty north of the border in 2014 and is

replaced with a new land transaction tax. There is also

legislation to deal with - (Indiscernible) We're starting to

see the first inkling of the Parliament starting to deal with

what'll be its new tax responsibilities in 2015. Of course,

some of the programme is defenceive. You have heard Richard Baker

criticising procurement, and the legislative programme contains

legislation to try to insulate the Government against some of that. It

undoubtedly is defensive but I think in truth, just taking those

four or five bills I have mentioned, that is quite a substantial

programme and does indicate the Scottish Government is using the

existing devolved powers to make what may well be some important

changes for Scotland with some impact down the track. A big theme

in Joanne's speech yesterday when she was criticising the package of

measures is you don't need legislation to do some of this,

such as the Children and Young People Bill which guarantees 600

free hours of nursery care. She says that can be done at the stroke

of a pen. Do you think the Government do need legislation?

Certainly with the Health and Social Care Integration, that is an

issue for debate. This Government and previous ones have tried the

achieve coordination through the coordination of health partnerships

and creating incentives to ensure that the two - NHS and local

authorities responsible for social - share their budgets. The

consensus is that's not happened. This will provide a legal basis

that'll require both the NHS and local authorities to share their

budgets in these two areas, so arguably past experience has

suggested trying to do it without legislation has not been sufficient.

This will now do it. But certainly, one needs to bear in mind -

certainly a lot of Government action doesn't necessarily require

legislation. We saw an important announcement during the summer

recess about funding for students that didn't require legislation.

Yes, it's always easy to focus too much on a legislative programme. In

truth, the Government has actually made it rather more difficult for

the opposition to say all you're going to do is the referendum and

nothing else - we might have expected. I think probably this in

fact is the most substantial SNP legislative programme since they

first came into Parliament in 2007. Thank you. Back with you later.

Let's head to the Garden Lobby in Holyrood and pick up on those

issues with Annabelle Using and Murdo Fraser from the Scottish

Conservatives. Thank you very much for joining us. Annabelle, were you

waiting for the call from the First Minister there? A big reshuffle

from Labour this afternoon. What about - the Liberal Democrats are

saying that Nicola Sturgeon is the Minister for Independent. Is that

right? Good afternoon. What happened today was that with Nicola

Sturgeon being switched to the portfolio of capital investment

infrastructure, we have seen the signal from the SNP Scottish

Government of the importance that this Government places on economic

recovery. I think everybody would accept that Nicola has done a

fantastic job as Health Secretary. I believe she has been the longest-

serving Health Secretary since the reconvening of the Scottish

Parliament in 1999. She's done a fantastic job. I am sure these

gentlemen will wish to recognise the fantastic job she's done. Of

course, with her move to the investment and capital

infrastructure portfolio, we're signalling the importance we place

on the economic recovery. She brings with her, of course, the

weight Deputy First Minister's office, so I think it's a very

important shift, and I'm sure she'll be seeking to tackle her new

portfolio with the same vim and vigour and excellence with which

she tackled the health portfolio. Isn't it a cynical move to lay

those concerns on the gentleman beside you that you just focus on

independence and not the economy? You're trying to intertwine these

issues to make it look like you're trying to focus on economy as much

as independence? As you heard in your interview with Professor John

Curtice that argument is a bit tired now. We saw yesterday with

the very ambitious legislative programme - some 15 bills over the

next year or so - I think it was a great signal to the people in this

country that we in the SNP and the SNP Government are determined to

make an improvement in the lives of our citizens and indeed to

transform our country, and of course the way we will do that is

by voting Yes in the independence referendum in 2014. Murdo Fraser

from the Conservatives, it looks like the SNP are putting forward

quite a coherent argument there intertwining the economy and

independence and saying, if you want Scotland to prosper, you need

independence. We're folkUsing on It tells its own story that a

minister has been moved from the Health Secretary position to

looking at independence. Nicola Sturgeon has been freed up from the

responsibility of looking after the NHS to get her more time to fight

the campaign for Scottish independence, that is what this is

about. Be in no doubt that the SNP are obsessed with a single aim

which is getting independence from the rest of the UK. They are now

targeted on that one objective and nothing else matters to them one

little bit. Your colleague will be meeting with Nicola Sturgeon

tomorrow. How close are we to meeting an agreement on the

referendum? I would hope that we are pretty close. I do not think

that the UK Government are stumbling block to this. They have

said that what Alex Salmond needs to do is just follow what he said

in his manifesto which is bring forward plans for at a single

question referendum whereby the people of Scotland can vote yes or

No to whether Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. If he is

prepared to do that then there will be no problem at all in those they

go issues being granted. We need to get us all the West and the sooner

we can get over it and focus on real issues are better it will be.

Lewis Macdonald from Labour it yesterday said that the SNP

administration was tired and flagging. Do you not think that

this shows a little bit of impetus? I think it was a tired and flagging

legislative programme. I think that it shows something that there

deputy first minister has been moved away from the National Health

Service and has been given to jobs. When Alex Salmond said in

parliament yesterday that the two most important things for the

Scottish economy were Scottish referendum and then procurement of

those things are at very important they have both been given to the

same person. That either means that there is a dearth of ministerial

talent or it means that Nicola Sturgeon will be expected to focus

either on independence or at on construction and that the other

jobs will not be done to the full effect. I think I know which one is

going to be the most important. We have already seen a �100 million

cut in the Budget since the SNP returned last year. I would be

pessimistic indeed about the prospects for the housing budget

and the infrastructure when it Nicola Sturgeon is going to spend

most of the next two years fighting the referendum campaign. I think

they argue it is a twin-track approach. Yesterday Alex Salmond

was copied door stop to the referendums. Now we hear John

Swinney talking about the end game, do you not think we're looking at

the SNP coming soon agreement with the UK Government? I sincerely hope

so. Barely a referendum that is what with the consent of all

parties and in an understood way as one that will hold whereas a

referendum which is not negotiated in advance will have no authority.

It is important that that happens. But there is no reason why this

Bell and his referendum could not have gone through Parliament in

months rather than years and we would have that decision 12 months

from now it rather than in two years' time. Annabelle Ewing we're

talking about a twin-track approach you at this inside line. When are

we going to come to an agreement with the UK Government and what

detail will there be in that? What do the SNP actually want? I think

it is clear it that a discussions are ongoing with the UK Government

and that is the proper way to conduct business, it those

discussions will continue. It will come as no surprise that everybody

in the SNP supports the right of Scotland to beat at normal country

and have the normal rights to independence. I have yet to see the

bell and we await the analysis of the extremely successful

consultation exercise that had been launched. There are some 26,000

responses to be analysed. It is quite right and proper that those

responses are analysed carefully and with due time and consideration

and once that has been done we will all be clear as to the way forward.

Thank you very much. Let us turn to the issue of the

economy which dominated Prime Minister's Questions. The Labour

leader Ed Miliband accused the Government of sticking with the

economic approach that had failed spectacularly. David Cameron insist

that thick economy was rebalancing and that the Government would

deliver for the Scottish people. He mentions they have reshuffle and

it is good to see the Chancellor still in his place. I have to say

to the Prime Minister that he has come to an ingenious solution to

their issue of his part in Chancellor, he is appointed another

one what the former justice secretary, it is a job share, we

will see how they get on. And do not know if he remembers that a

year ago he published his national infrastructure plan alongside the

Autumn Statement. He said at the time of that plan it was an all out

mission to unlock the system. Can he tell us one year on of the road-

building project announced in that plan, how many have actually

started? I am glad he mentioned the issue of chances because of course

I have my first choice as Chancellor and he has his third

choice as shadow chancellor. Apparently he still has to bring in

the coffee every morning. That is just how assertive and which their

leader of the opposition really is. About infrastructure, he asks about

infrastructure, if you look at what is planned by this Government

between 2010 and 2015, we will be investing �250 billion in

infrastructure which compares with just �113 billion between at 2005

and 2010. He does not have a clue. Over the last two-and-a-half years

we have seen announcements on other structures Dale and announcements

on housing and planning failed. What is the reason for this

economic failure? The reason is has fundamental economic approach is

wrong. After the summer we now know that his whole two-and-a-half years

as Prime Minister has not seen the British economy grow at all. By

does not he admitted? The real problem is this, plan a has

spectacularly failed. Let me tell what has happened in our economy,

you are seen the private sector growing and expanding. There are

900,000 more people employed in the private sector then there were two

years ago. We're now an exporter of cars and motor of the coals for the

first thing since the 1970s. -- of vehicles. Our economy as

rebalancing and that is what is happening and there is growth in

the private sector, our exports to China at up and so are they to

India and Russia. That is what is happening, it is a hard and

difficult road that we will stick to that road because we will

deliver for the British economy. Has the Prime Minister seen today

that there was a report saying that Aberdeen needs to recruit 120,000

skilled people in the next ten years if we are to deliver our

capacity in the global energy economy? Well the Government take

steps to ensure that an energy Academy and infrastructure and

training is put in place so that we can deliver growth for the United

Kingdom? About my Right Honourable Friend raises a very important

point which is that the growth of the economy around Aberdeen at

linked to North Sea oil has been successful. I want to see that took

it -- I want to see that expand and I will speak to and later at to see

what he can advise. We now go across to College Green

to our correspondent. We have had to reshuffles already.

They are like buses, aren't they? To come along within a couple of

days after Europe waited for readers. At see-sawed from Prime

Minister's questions the whole idea that something must be done it took

get something moving again it has been key. We are now joined to

discuss that issue. We heard you there at Prime

Minister's Question Time saying that unless we get right people

trained we will not be able to take a bandage of the economy. More

broadly on the reshuffle itself, are you now confident that the

right people and the right positions to get the economy

moving? To be honest I do not know because people have been put into

jobs to do not have a track record necessarily in that area. We will

have to see. The point I would make his, the shovels do not really

matter to the outside world. What matters is, do they make their

Government function better? The Prime Minister says he has put

people in that will deliver on the policies already agreed. As a

coalition partner at that comforts me because we are in a coalition

and we need people to deliver on the agreement we have up to get the

economy moving. Their own view is that you cannot judge a reshuffle

the day after you have to judge it 12 months after. It is refreshing

to hear you say you do not know. It does raise the question as to why

they were not in these positions before? But do not think that is

the case. Governments always need to refresh. You do not want to

teach people too often though. People do need a couple of years to

do a job properly. I think it is perfectly reasonable but people get

over excited about reshuffles. Quite rightly the Government will

be judged in the end on whether it can deliver growth. The background

is not where we would wish it to be although it is better than many of

our it competitors. Inflation is coming down and interest rates are

extremely low. I was picking get confidence and investment and the

construction industry going then we will not get growth. That is what

we are concentrating on and tried to deliver.

It is not necessarily the people and the positions, it is what they

do that is important. Have you seen anything that might make you think

that this coalition Government is addressing these problems in the

last 24 hours? It is in no change reshuffle and there will be no

change in the economy. The Prime Minister set up a sub-committee of

the Cabinet today to remove the abstractions to economic recovery.

If he wanted to do that then he should have sacked as Chancellor

and, with the new policy today on growth and on spending and on the

rest. You have lots of organisations all saying that

austerity has failed. For every �2 of cuts this Government is making

there is only �1 coming of their deficit. It is failing on its own

terms, we need a new plan for jobs and growth today.

Would you agree that we now need a second plan? Absolutely, what we're

that a reshuffle of what we needed was a rethink on economic policy.

At Prime Minister's Questions today he was challenged on three of the

things that he said last time that he produced a programme for growth,

there was no growth, we're in a double-dip recession. The people

out there that are unemployed will be gobsmacked in this UK reshuffle.

The one person that it his job was the Chancellor who was a major

roadblock to the kind of policies we need to actually kicks that

their economy again. The Archdruid from this Government

has always been that it year marks out a credit card it does not do

any good to try to spend even more on that credit card. That is as

simple soundbite and commonsense would say do not borrow when you

have Max doubt. But if you tell Rose and stimulus NEC the crushing

impact that we have seen on the construction sector. We need to

shove already projects with direct capital investment. It is most

effective and efficient thing that any Government can do to deliver

growth and get the economy moving again.

The Government accepts that and is not wanting to not do that, they

just do not want to borrow to do it, we want to report that the packages

we have. We're looking at their low credit rating to get underwriting

into private sector projects which will move forward in the next year

or so. If you start borrowing then interest rates go up.

They is an argument that as the markets take fright it does not

matter what else you were doing. If you're fighting the markets you

will never be able to have gross. What you see in America and Japan

is lower interest rates as well. All countries that can bring their

own currency have low long-term interest rates at the moment that

is the fact, but we have weak growth in Britain because we have

Business Supplies is that are going to know productive use in the

economy at all. Alice the Government sort that out and sorts

out the shortage of demand then the crisis of under employment with

250,000 people in Scotland desperate for full-time work that

cannot get it, unless you address the issue of wages that are falling

quarter by quarter, they will not address the weaknesses in the

economy. I am not denying that this is a serious situation and people

are suffering. What I reject is that this quick fix idea with

spending and borrowing will solve the problem. Have you as you will

make it works. I'd really have to look at spending and it could be

more constructive discussion between the parties on that. You

cannot borrow your way to growth. No one wants to see borrowing rise

for ever and everyone knows the deficit must be tackled. But we

will not be able to tackle the deficit and eventually that it is

the economy continues to flat line and we have no growth. Right now

because there is stagnation in the global economy, the UK Government

is to use the tools it has which is investment in shovel ready projects

to kick-start the economy and the Willie Rennie, final word to you -

will anything the Government has proposed, will it, as you say,

solve that problem of lack of demand? It won't because we have a

perfect storm where there is massive unemployment. There is

productive labour that is not being properly utilised in the economy,

real wages falling and the construction and manufacturing

sectors in crisis. Unless the Government comes up with a plan

that is different on spending and borrowing, you'll not address that

fundamental weakness in the economy. Thank you very much.

I think, Andrew, as you get a flavour there that despite what

happens with the personalities in Government reshuffles, as our

colleagues have been saying here, it is the economy that is going to

remain the important political issue at Westminster. David Porter

at Westminster, thank you very much. Let's head back to Holyrood for

more on the mini-reshuffle in the Scottish Government and also the

legislative programme that was announced yesterday. I am joined by

Willie Rennie, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats and

Patrick Harvie, the co-convener of the Scottish Greens. Good afternoon,

gentlemen. Thank you very much for joining me. Patrick Harvie, as

you're an ardent Nationalist and an ardent supporter of independence

joining Mr Salmond and the campaign states you must we can Nicola

Sturgeon taking this role in the fight for independence? I think

Nicola will take on that job with great enthusiasm. I have to say I

am very much a supporter of independence but not a Nationalist.

You don't have to be a Nationalist to have a view about where the

right level of Sovereignty should like, whether that's people who

support the UK or people who support Scottish independence, so

I'm hoping that the programme for Government starts to articulate

some of the ideas about the kind of independent Scotland we could be.

An issue that Willie and I probably agree strong loin, the same-sex

marriage, does start to articulate. It says we want to be an inclusive

Scotland. There are other opportunities to start talking

about the different kinds of economy we can have in Scotland, a

different kind of taxation and welfare system we could have in a

independent Scotland. I think if we can project that, what we can

achieve for our country with independence, then all parties can

contribute to that and hopefully the people of Scotland will make

the best informed decision they can in 2014. At the moment, the Holy

Grail for politicians is the search for economic growth, and Nicola

Sturgeon has been tasked with trying to get that going, but you

took a rather different view in economic growth, don't you? Do you

see economic growth as always a good thing? Economic growth can be

a good and a negative thing, and it's port if we think about

economic recovery to ask what does recovery mean? That to me doesn't

just mean the trying to reanimate the corpse of the economy that just

collapsed, trying to refloat a failed economic model. It means

taking a view about the equality between people this Scotland in

society. It means taking a view about sustainability and a low-

carbon economy. These things matter at least as much as just GDP. GDP

tells you how much money is swilling around the economy. It

doesn't tell you whether it's being generated in a way that's divisive

or improves solidarity and sustainability in society, so we

take a very different view about what economic recovery means, and

we'll bring some of those debates into the chamber I hope in the next

few weeks and months. You have put out a statement this afternoon

saying Nicola Sturgeon is the Minister for Independence, but do

you not admit perhaps the SNP have come up with quite a good idea here

- they're marrying the twin themes of the economy and independence?

They see the two as inextricably linked, and that's what they're

doing. They have a real focus on the economy and not just

independence. When the SNP went to the polls in May 2011, they said

people - their focus was going to be on running the country. They got

re-elected on the basis of Alex Salmond saying do no bad. Their

focus has shifted from running the country to actually trying to run

and win the referendum. We're seeing an increasing number of

civil servants, increasing resources from the Civil Service

being used to win the SNP's ambition of independence. I think

we'll suffer as a result, because the focus will move away from that.

This is about running the country in one of the most difficult times

in our history, and all we see is them running the referendum. I

think that's a bad thing for Scotland. Do you not see their

argument? They argue obviously they believe that independence is the

only way that you can achieve proper economic growth. Do you not

see their point in their argument? If that was the case, why are they

not having the referendum now? If they think the dead hand of

Westminster is so debilitating, is having such a crippling effect on

Scotland, why are they waiting another two years from now - three

years from when they were elected? This is not a Government that

really believes in its own policy. They're redefining it. They're

trying to include bits of the British state they did not support.

They detest. This is a Government that's actually afraid, that's

trying to work out ways of tricking people into supporting independence,

and I think we should have nothing of it. They may not be trying to

trick people. We have been speaking to the SNP already today, but

looking at the agreement from the UK Government, how is that

progressing? And obviously the SNP have what they want to get out of

the referendum - their opinions and what they want to get out of it,

and the UK Government have their opinions, so how close are we to

coming to an agreement there, do you think? I'm hoping we're going

to get an agreement quickly and from my discussions with my

colleagues at Westminster, the signs are good. We will get a

referendum that is a single question that actually sorts out

the nature of the question, the franchise but also the timing, and

I think the sooner we can get on with the details of the debate -

some of the issues Patrick was raising about what's Scotland going

to look like - the defence system, international relations - all these

things are important. I believe Britain gives us a huge platform, a

great platform on which to launch Scotland to the world. Obviously,

the SNP are more interested in splitting us off. Thank you both

very much for joining me. Let's get some more thoughts in the

company of our political commentator for the afternoon,

Professor John Curtice. Speaking to everyone this afternoon we do get

that impression we're heading towards some kind of agreement on

the referendum, don't we? It does sound as though we're heading

towards some sort of agreement. Certainly, everybody seems to be

putting that sort of mood music forward. The only form of agreement

one can envisage is one in which there is only a single question

rather than two questions. Of course, it raises an interesting

question about how the SNP might necessarily approach that. Will

they say, well, at the end of the day, our consultation said that's

really what people wanted and was always their first preference, so

we're happy with it? Or will they want to say, look, actually, we

really wanted to have two questions. This is what our consultation was

indicating, but Westminster aren't stopping us, and to use that as an

indication to say to people, look, if you really want Scotland to be

autonomous and to earn its own tax and welfare benefits, the only

package on offer is independence. Therefore, that's what you're going

to have to vote for - it will be very interesting to see how the SNP

is going to react to and spin an agreement with the UK Government if

indeed an agreement is achieved. Briefly, the red lines Willie

Rennie was talking about, the franchise, the two questions...

only red lines between the two governments according to the inside

information seems to be one question versus two. The UK

Government might be willing to concede on the franchise, difficult

though it is in practise to get 16 votes. The dates have long since

been forgotten about. The only question really at the heart here

is one question or two? The date is the only thing we're unsure of.

Indeed. If it's an agreement between the two governments, one

presumes it will be an order that'll allow the Holyrood to run

this between now and 2013. Here's a I flavour of what the First

Minister had to say about the new team as he entered Parliament

earlier. I am in the fortunate position - perhaps in contrast to

the Prime Minister - I have a range of talented people and a limited

number of posts to put them in, but I am very happy with the team I

have got to take Scotland forward. The First Minister there. Now we

can cross back to the Garden Lobby where we're joined by two

parliamentary journalists, Alan Cochrane, the Telegraph's Scottish

Editor and Robbie Dinwoodie, the Chief Scottish Political

Correspondent from the Herald. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thanks for

joining me. First to you, Alan. Did the Lobby know this was going to

happen? Did it come as a bit of a surprise? A big surprise. The only

one who knew that Bruce Crawford had a sad summer - well, it took us

- me by surprise, anyway, that he decided to retire from the game

altogether, and the bigger surprise, of course is Alex Salmond has put

Nicola Sturgeon into this front- line role. It changes the tempo and

perhaps the style of the debate now now that Nicola is doing it. Robbie,

do you think Alan is speaking about changing the tempo and style - do

you think she has been put in there to really fight the Scottish

Government's corner with the UK Government? Absolutely - not that I

think Bruce Crawford wasn't doing that anyway. Everyone admires the

job he did keeping the minority administration together. Everyone

knows how well he negotiated in terms of the referendum deal, but

Nicola will bring something new to it, something fresh to it. She's

already on the board of the Scotland campaign. So I think in

the unfortunate loss of Bruce Crawford an opportunity has arisen,

and that's why Nicola's role has been so expanded. I suppose now she

has been divested of the controversial same-sex marriage

legislation, which will help. She'll be able to fly away from

that and won't be hindered by that. Also, Alex Neil has the pick that

up along with the responsibility for the biggest single subject

brief there is. The Health Service is a massive job, and they have put

a bruiser and a tough man into that job. Do you think we could still

see health coming up to trip up the Scottish Government in the next

couple of years? Sorry. I think health is an important one. But I

think everyone's minds, if you don't mind me saying so, is focused

on, will Nicola sell the jerseys? There there be a change in the

attitude towards negotiations? As John was saying a moment ago, is

there now going to be not so much a deal as a surrender by the

Nationalists from two questions to one? That's the big question, the

only question I am interested in, and I suspect most people in here.

We have a couple new faces, Joe Fitzpatrick, parliamentary business

manager - a bit of a technocrat, I spoke, but Hmu za Yousef, as well,

a well-known face. That's good move for the minority community, but we

have another minority community in Joe Fitzpatrick from Dundee coming

in. Robbie Dinwoodie, we have the discussion going on tomorrow

between Nicola Sturgeon and David Mundel. I looks like these

discussions are really hotting up, doesn't it? She's pitched straight

into the negotiations. The point is that I think at the end of the day

there was always only going to be a straight yes-no question. It's just

that the SNP want to be able to point their finger at Westminster

for denying the option. And Alan Cochrane, we're coming up to

conference time, of course, the SNP conference in mid-October. Do you

think Alex Salmond really needs to have a full package ready to

present to the troops at conference time when it comes to the

referendum? I don't think the Nationalist activists - the members

- are at all interested in two questions. Going back to the

conference last year, most of them wanted one question. I think Nicola

Sturgeon is of that view on that wing of the party, and I think that

if there is to be one question, it will be seen as a victory for the

activists in the SNP, but it is a significant concession, retreat by

Alex Salmond. Robbie Dinwoodie, do you think it's a significant

concession by Alex Salmond if they do have one question, perhaps?S

that two-question argument not just been a bit of an extra discussion

on the side? No, I think it has been a tactic. I think it has been

a fight for the middle ground. People who want more devolution but

not independence - the question, once it crystallises, which way

will they go? I think that's the battle now. Alan, what about you?

This is just the new spin. They said we never wanted two questions

in the first place but of course they did. Now they know they're not

going to get them, they're pretending they didn't want them.

It's rubbish. Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining me. My thanks

to Professor John Curtice, who has been with me in the studio for the

afternoon. Eaths that's all we have time for