06/02/2013 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up - the Scottish

government's budget will go through at Holyrood this afternoon, but the

opposition continue to fight for changes. There could be more money

for colleges and housing. And here at Westminster, up concerns about

changes to the benefit system and what we will end up paying for the

banks' bad behaviour. The finishing touches are being put

to Scotland's budget. �30 billion are being allocated across

government departments. He says he wants to create jobs and boost

growth. The SNP has a majority here at

Holyrood. John Swinney knows that and knows he has to give no

concessions to the opposition parties. None the less, in terms of

politics in these troubled times, the finance secretary has shown

that willingness to reach out to the opposition. I suspect he will

give way on a couple of issues. Money for colleges has become a

very hot potato and also more capital investment for housing. The

opposition parties what it and it is part of his strategy to increase

housing. There is only so far the finance secretary can call because

he is dealing with a very tight budget. He is not hearing many

calls for ways in which people will find extra cash.

The EMS peas will be debating that in just a moment and I am joined

from Holyrood by Murdo Fraser from the Scottish Conservatives, Ken

Macintosh of Labour and Stuart Maxwell from the SNP. Murdo Fraser,

first of all, we heard a couple of issues Brian Taylor picked up on

there. What are you calling for in this budget and are you expecting

any changes? Their three principle calls - for college house in which

we think is wrong to have its budget cut. We're concerned about

cuts in the housing budget because we are spending money on capital

infrastructure which does not make sense. We're concerned about taxes

on businesses. The Scottish government's budget is rejecting an

additional amount of revenue from business rates over the next few

years. Businesses will have to find that money and we do not know what

John Swinney will do but will find out in the next few minutes.

Macintosh, you are echoing some of those calls. Have you been meeting

to put most points to the finance secretary? Up we have. He has

invited us and twice all rely will be absolutely honest. It felt like

going through the motions rather than a genuine attempt to reach out.

We want to put employment and the economy at the heart of his budget.

There are others who are calling For Housing and colleges in

particular. It is across the economy. The whole country has

recognised that cutting College and housing budgets in a recession is

economic suicide and John Swinney is not listening to this. You are

hearing that, has John Swinney been listening to these calls? It is not

like the old days where he had to listen to the opposition that he

can now do what he likes? It is very clear that he has been

listening very closely both to those within the parliament and

also those outside who obviously bring a great deal of expertise to

these areas. The SNP and the Scottish government has been

investing greatly in some sectors ignored by the other parties. There

are a number of extra financial announcements over the years. The

fact remains that in the face of the cut to the capital budget, the

Scottish government is less than a very difficult position for sup

this is meant to be a Budget for jobs and growth and surely a

reversing the cuts is a way to tackle the youth unemployment

crisis? It has doubled since 2007. Given the economic crisis in the UK

and elsewhere, we are in a very difficult position. This Budget

will be focused on jobs and economic growth and young people.

The cuts from Westminster are not helping the situation one that. I

am sure John Swinney has heard the calls from opposition parties and

others and will make sure this Budget is focused on capital

investment. We'll make sure to squeeze every single pound we're

supplied. The finance secretary is listening but when Labour make

these extra calls, when you add up all the extra commitments there is

no way to balance the budget. have not called for anything that

is affordable. We have made some very modest and reasonable calls.

The SNP failed to deliver a Budget for growth and jobs last time.

Whatever they are doing it is not working. What I would suggest is

that the cuts to colleges were made by the SNP Government. There was a

26% cut in the capital budget and you cannot afford the reality.

Scottish government has the choice of what to do. The SNP want it both

ways. They say they are trying to deliver a Budget for capital

investment but they're making the wrong choices at the wrong time.

Let's put that 0.2 the Tories. Everyone is having a go at you

there. -- point to the Tories. overall budget in cash terms this

year is higher than it was last year by a factor of �7 million.

That is not a huge amount of money but in cash terms he has more to

spend this year than last year. Where he has money to manage, he is

not managing it well. Money was supposed to come forward and the

current financial year but we are not getting all of it. Before he

starts complaining about the image he has, to demonstrate -- he has to

demonstrate he can use the image he has more responsibly. By Hugh to

you all for joining us this after noon.

I am joined in the studio by Angus MacLeod the Scottish editor of the

times. -- The Times. The SNP say they're struggling with those cuts

from Westminster. Up there was quite a big hint from Stuart

Maxwell there when he said that John Swinney had been listening

that there will be some more money sometime this afternoon for housing

and colleges. That brings us on to the question of how much? The

housing and construction sector might be partly satisfied but I do

not think he will produce enough to really alleviate the suspicions and

the worries of the further education sector. He may produce

some but probably nowhere near enough. The present economic

straitjacket John Swinney is operating in, so much currently

goes to wages and salaries and the public sector through necessity.

Even if we live in a booming economy, even then he would have

very little room for manoeuvre. Quite honestly, a lot is going to

have to be done and to be made of a comparatively small amount of money.

It is interesting that you point out there that he can give a little

bit more but perhaps not that much. In the old days, they had this

majority in the parliamentary arithmetic and may have had a lot

more to work with. Politically, the situation with colleges has damaged

the SNP Government because it affects young people trying to make

their way in the world. That has been a serious misjudgment. In the

construction sector, a lot of economists say this is an area

which actually serves to provide some ballast for an economy which

is otherwise misfiring. Whether in fact he will produce enough in

either area is a key point and I do not think he can do the at. Back

with you short way but let's go now to the chamber.

John Swinney has just taken to his feet and so far he has set out the

constraints in which he is operating. The Scottish economy has

come to growth by 0.6 per cent in 2012. Unemployment continued to

fall with a significant fall in UK unemployment combined with

encouraging news on growth in export sales. This demonstrates

progress is being made. Despite this, we are clear that more needs

to be done. This bill seeks to boost economic recovery by

developing jobs and supporting people into employment and

supporting Scottish businesses. This provides for the most

competitive tax regime in any part of the United Kingdom and delivers

our commitment to a good social wage and provides funding for key

measures such as the council tax freeze, free prescriptions at eye

tests. It takes for work an ambitious programme of reform based

on the four pillars of better partnership, investing in people

who deliver services, a public service culture which the lovers

standards of performance and a decisive shift in favour of

prevented of spending. -- delivers standards. We're taking forward the

changes announced in the spending review. Later this year, the

children and Young People Bill will increase entitlement to child care

from 475 hours to 600 hours for up children up to four years old.

These are significant expansion is set alongside another range of

measures we are undertaking. The Bill also maintains the

government's commitment to infrastructure investment. We are

using every leva at our disposal to mitigate the impact of the Severe

cuts the UK Government has made. In 2013-14, the figures are planned to

rise to �3.4 billion. Nine of the major infrastructure investment

programmes are valued at over �600 million, they are completed and are

now of use. We're taking four were projects such as the heat 4th

replacement crossings. The total value of projects that have entered

procurement or development is now at �1.6 billion and we are on track

to meet our target of delivering 30,000 affordable homes. He keeps

talking about procurement but how much will actually be delivered on

the ground next year for 2013-14? We plant at total amount of capital

expenditure of �3.4 billion. This is based on a conventional capital

budget of �2.7 billion, the remainder coming from NPD and

It is with this approach that I have considered again what steps I

can take to increase the impact of our capital expenditure programme.

I have agreed with Scottish Water to reduce their draw down of loans

by �5 million, while maintaining their investment programme. We plan

to invest over �400 million in low carbon activity. Demand for

financial support from the renewable energy infrastructure

fund is lower than expected and I intend to release �15 million for

other projects. While ensuring that funding drawn down from the fossil

fuel levy surplus will be deployed to support renewable projects. Our

budget has been cut by more than a quarter, but when ever we have had

an opportunity to increase investment in housing, that is what

we have done. Announcing additional investment of �200 million. We have

investment split between several programmes. We will invest a

further �10 million in the affordable housing supply programme

and invest �4 million in preventive adaptations. We will invest �24

million in sustainability measures in the housing sector. �10 more for

the retro fit programme and to extend the energy assistance

package and for the greener homes innovation scheme and funding to

bring new affordable homes to silver energy efficiency standard.

I will do. Thank you. These are measures which are going to be felt

directly by families, families who are being hurt very hard by the

cuts. And the greater number of cuts that are to come. To avoid

people take out pay day loans, he knows that I have favoured an

expansion of the credit union system. Can he co-Ig -- do anything

to kick-start that? The Government has supported credit unions to the

tune of �1.3 billion. There are other funding streams that have

been available and I expect further measures to be available through

third sector funding arrangements. I recognise the long-standing she

has in these issues. The housing measures combined will deliver

around 350 new social and other homes. Around 2,000 preventative

adaptation and greater energy efficiency in 8 thousand how

households. This represents further additional investment in housing,

providing new homes and improving our existing stock. Cutting

emissions and supporting an estimated 800 jobs with additional

expenditure of �38 million. I can tell Parliament over the three

years of spending review the total investment by the Government in

housing supply will be 859 million pounds. APPLAUSE. If Mr Rennie will

forgive Americas I have more ground to cover. Another significant

contributor to economic activity is a balanced package of investment in

public transport and roads infrastructure. Ry pound spent on

road maintenance provides a benefit of �1.50 to the economy. I confirm

I will invest �10 million in trunk road maintenance in 2013/14. The

Government strives to identify new mean os -- means of driving

recovery. So I have two new policies to support growth. We will

invest �2 million in a fund to enable housing providers to test

out the development of affordable housing in vacant town centre

properties. This will help meet our commitment to deliver quality home

and bring empty home back into use and support key themes from the

town centre review, promoting our town centres as places to live and

work. Second, if Mr Baker will forgive me for a moment. Scotland

has a reputation for pripship and we need to capitalise on these

strengths. -- entrepreneurship. We will support small businesses ready

to grow, but struggling to access finance. I have been struck by the

number of lie quality applications the fund has received and I confirm

I will add a further �1 million to the fund, doubling the amount the

Government is making available to some of Scotland's most ambitious

entrepreneurs. I will give way to Mr Rennie. I welcome the additional

investment in housing. That is a welcome development. He referred to

child care nursery edge case. I was giving him time to explore the

possibility of additional funding. Is he minded to invest more in that

area? I have considered the points that he has advanced to me. My view

is given the financial pressures that we face, the approach the

Government plans to take with the expansion of child provision for

three and four-year-olds is the light way to take that forward as

part of the early years agenda. The Government is taking foree forward

a programme of post 16 education reform. Our objectives were for a

system better aligned with jobs ooh growth. But improved -- jobs and

growth, but improved life chances. It will ensure our college sector

can deliver high quality education and help learners get the skills

they need for jobs. These objectives will be met, they will

ensure our colleges deliver an improved student experience. A

better service for employers. And long-term sustainability. We are

also conscious of the need to help colleges maintain service for

different learner groups, such as women who want to return to work

and those who wrestle with disadvantage. The Government is

committed to this process of reform and will ensure that it is

implemented. Real progress has been made and we welcome the positive

engage ment in reform. So I announce that the Government will

make available the best deal question for colleges. We shall

provide an additional �10 million in 2013/14 that. Increase will

establish the college budget at �5 22 million in the next financial

year. Our plan for 2014 would see further reduction in the college

budget to �47 1 million. The Education Secretary and I want to

give stability to young people and colleges in the final stage of

reform. I confirm to Parliament that the college budget will be set

in 2014 not at 47 1 million, not at 5 10 million, which Tuz the highest

figure before we came to office. But at a level consi tents with

2014 at �5 22 million. This means... APPLAUSE This means �5 22 million

of resource funding each year for two years. And an extra �61 million

over these two years. Allowing Scotland's colleges... Order.

further o' ward with confidence and ambition to deliver the pram of --

program of reform and we will decide how best to implement this

funding. In providing this significant support, the Government

is building on the steps we are taking to support young people into

employment through our opportunities for all initiative

and the abolition of tuition fees. When we have a record number of

Scots in higher education and maintaining the number of college

places and investing millions in the college estate and offering a

record number of apprenticeships and offering 61 million pound of

extra funding for secondor, this Government is invest Ogg --

investing to deliver for Scotland's young people in the future.

Scottish Government has delaifrd budget for growth. We are building

on our original spending plans, having listened to the views of

Parliament and the country and are delivering extra funding for

housing, creating jobs and cutting emissions. Funding to regenerate

our town centres, more support for entrepreneurs and investment in our

roads and a further investment in our colleges. This is a budgets

bill that I believe deserves support from across the chamber and

I commend it to Parliament and to the people of Scotland. That is the

latest from Holyrood. The Finance Secretary John Swinney speaking.

Angus Macleod is still with me in the studio. We are discussing what

key announcement he might make. He did move on the college and the

housing budget. Yes, I think probably in terms of the housing,

the housing lobby will probable - eprobably be happier than they

thought they would be. And colleges u 10 million. I don't think that

will keep them happy. Although to be fair to John Swinney, he did add

that the college budget would rise to the level that he had already

pledged that in the following year, so to that extent he has said to

them, jam tomorrow. And that may well placate them, but I don't

think the ten million in this year will go anywhere near enough

placating them. Interesting to see that commitment on the college

budget. It was a tricky issue. have to wonder, given the flak they

have taken and the tra ma this has raised, why they didn't go there

originally any way. Surely there must have been what police judgment

there. Thank you. -- misjudgment. Now to Prime Minister's questions

where the so-called bedroom tax was debate. Ed Miliband accused the

Prime Minister of not protecting the most vulnerable in society.

After claiming that two thirds of those hit by the bedroom tax were

disabled. But David Cameron said that under occupation penalty was

not a tax. And said there was a �50 million fund to deal with difficult

cases. I want to ask the Prime Minister about the bed room tax.

Alison in Middlesbrough has 18- year-old tkwim son s who are both

in the army. The tax means while her sons are away she will be

charged more for their bred rooms. -- bedrooms. She said I resent the

fact they won't have a home to come to. What is the Prime Minister's

answer to Alison? Well first, let me make clear. This is not a tax.

It is a benefit. I would make two points. In respect of the specific

case that he raises, first, all the time Labour was in government, if

you were in a private sector rented home, and you were in receipt of

housing benefit, you did not get any benefit for empty rooms. It is

only fair we treat people in social housing the same. The second point

is if anyone is away from home, then their earnings aren't counted

so, the benefits of that person will go up. I look forward to him

explaining to Alison why her play paying �25 a week more is not a tax

on her. As for his point about the private rented sector. I think he

misunderstands the point of social housing. Part of its purpose is to

protect the most vulnerable. According to the Government's

figures, two thirds of the people here are disabled. Let me tell the

Prime Minister about an e-mail I received. It said my wife is

disabled and is care for in bed. The gentleman says, due to her ill

answer and my medical conditionss, I sleep in the spare reed room.

High is it fair for him and thousands of other of disabled

people like him to be hit by the bedroom stacks? -- tax. As with

every member, if he wants me or the the department of work and pensions

to look at a specific case. Of course I will. But let me again

make some detailed points to him. First, there is a �50 million pund

to -- fund to deal with difficult cases. Let me make the argument of

fair thans he seems to miss. If you are in private rented housing and

receive no housing benefit, you don't get money for an extra room F

you're in private housing and do get benefit you don't money for an

extra room. There is a basic argument of fairness. Why should we

do more for people in social What is a air is between at our air

attacks on the essay all that our lunch in tax on millionaires?

country, we are spending �23 billion on housing benefit will

start we have to have up at eight in this country and the last

government said we had to have a debate in this country about

getting on top of housing benefit. That featured in the Labour

manifesto on which they were all elected. Since they have moved to

the opposition benches they have given up all pretence of that

responsibility. Let's go to Westminster now. David

Cameron was facing a rather tough time there in the so-called bed and

tax debate. -- bedroom. It shows in graphic detail that when you try to

make changes in the benefit system, in it any changes, there are going

to be losers. There may also be some people who when but by and

large it is the losers who are going to be unhappy. We saw a very

concerted attack by the Labour Party with Ed Miliband and a number

of other MPs wanting to pick up on what they see as a weak point in

the government's case. Cameron wants to reduce the level of

deficit and to do so she is tackling the benefits system to

bring more clarity and fairness are into it. The issue of gay marriage

was brought up a couple of times after a revolt. Rather muted on the

Conservative backbenches. -- after the vote. It was one of those times

in the House of Commons where he got the feeling that something

really important had happened. The Conservatives did not want to go

for that again. The opponents of same-sex or gay marriage in England

knows that it has been taken in principle but it will not

necessarily get an easy ride through the House of Lords. They

are looking for more safeguards for religious groups. I think now they

accept that it will go ahead. SNP did not vote because they do

not fought on matters affecting England. Six Scottish Labour MPs

voted against it. It is one of the issues in which the whips were not

whipping in the traditional sense. It was very much an issue of

conscience and although this issue does not affect Scotland, a a

number of Labour MPs felt strongly about it and held such strong views

that they felt they wanted to register to vote on an issue which

does not affect people in Scotland. We had the announcement yesterday

of when an independent -- independence they could happen in

Scotland. What was the action in Westminster? We got a slight

flavour in Prime Minister's question time when there was a

question from Unionist MPs calling for the benefits of the Union. It

is all very well and good to say you have a transition programme.

The what Alex Salmond to name the date for the referendum in 2014.

What they do not want to do is get into detailed negotiations about

what form an independent Scotland might make. They feel that would be

moving on to the SNP's territory. The what the arguments over the

referendum first and then look at what the situation might be up for

the referendum. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury made a

statement about the Royal Bank of Scotland and their massive fines

after the wrecking of interest rates. That will be just under �400

million made payable to the American and British authorities.

That is for the rate fixing scandal. Stephen Hester has been doing a

number of interviews this afternoon in which she said that the culture

were in his back at other banks has to change. What we're certain of

his they do not want the money to come up out of the tax payers

because they all over 80% of the Royal Bank of Scotland. They wanted

to come from the back but not for many funds which might be used for

future lending to individuals or organisations. There is a growing

feeling at Westminster that if they could take it from future bonuses

for bankers, that is what they would like to do. That is far

easier to say than to do a in practice.

We have been discussing the Budget and that debate is taking place

currently. Our commentator is Glenn Campbell.

The Budget debate is still under way and Labour's Ken Macintosh is

concluding his response. The illusion of independence has

blinded the SNP to what they can do here and now that I it encourage

members to reject the choices made by John Swinney Bose up may I

remind members that time is very tight. This government was really

summed up in the first two minutes of this debate. When it started,

there was building work going on haply outside and within minutes of

him opening his mouth, the building work had stopped! This is a

government which has at its disposal �7 million more next year

than it had this year. More money to spend in the next financial year

than this year so there for any cuts sought changes that may make

our political choices of the SNP. They do not like it. But with more

money to spend next year than they have this year, the choices are

entirely theirs. Let's look at where they say these savings have

been made. Scottish Water, through the great efforts of the Scottish

government, have managed to get an extra �35 million lot of Scottish

Water. What you have seen in the small print is the aid and

additional �50 million to Scottish Water this year. In terms of the

2014-15 budget, there is �190 million going to Scottish Water.

They tell us they have saved money because demand is down despite the

fact they have complained month after month after month about a

renewables money being brought forward to Scotland. When it

actually happened, they seem to be incapable of delivering. Let's look

at the announcement on colleges because this is a bizarre situation.

An announcement of �10 million increased budget this year. There

was a �34 million cut and they have decided to put �10 million back.

What did we have? Spontaneous applause across this bit of the

chamber foray �24 million cut to colleges. They will regret watching

that back on television. I'd do not think there will be any spontaneous

rounds of applause outside the chamber for a �24 million cut. I am

happy to give way. He is not allowed to take part in the debate

and was up but let us have a intervention. I was a plodding for

the extra �51 million next year. -- applauding. Very good! I can see

why he got Oct. -- bumped. Let's look again at housing. We spoke

about all that additional money but when you add up all the money that

went into housing in 2012, according to the Scottish

government figures that came out at �360 million. Even if you add in

the previous four crashes that they tried to make sound like four

additional tranches, you still have �300 million. That is �60 million

down on 2012 for up a budget that they see as a priority. They ask to

be judged on what this Budget did for the economy. He said he would

put every single additional pound he could into the economy but we

see disappointing results and colleges, when it comes to housing,

and even more disappointing results when it comes to taxation. We have

seen three stakes against the business community since this

became a majority government. The retail Leddy, the empty properties

tax and a business rates burden that increases by 7% next year and

9% the following year. Mr Brown is complaining about cuts in public

expenditure. What precisely has he to say to the UK Government that

has cut our capital budget by 25%? To be accused of complaining by

John Swinney about reductions in spending has a nice irony to it.

Let us look at what the Scottish government has done in response.

Order! If they would require it I am quite happy to answer the

question put forward. The Scottish government response to all of this

is to set up the NPD programme to replace the PBI programme they

decided to get rid of. -- PPi. They told us they would spend �150

million in year one but they spent nothing. You are spending 20

million this year but he told us he would spend 353 million! Alex

Salmond has the audacity to talk about NPD when last week...

Speaking in the chamber there about the Budget. You can follow up on

BBC Online if you what to close-up more from her political commentator

Angus MacLeod. Independence Day in 20th March 16 it is on the Scottish

government's timetable. You have too much at the motives behind that.

The SNP and the Scottish government and the yes campaign want to try to

end you the whole idea of independence with a certain

inevitability. -- imbue. It was an attempt to draw the British

Government on to the SNP's ground in talking about independence

before the referendum. It has struck me as a political risk as

well because a lot of people in Scotland are very wary about

independence. This tends to concentrate the mind and you wonder

how they will react. Opinion polls will tell us that. The Scottish

government told us they were following a timetable set out by a

number of other countries and it was quite easy to negotiate

independence during that time scale. Most of these countries have not

been involved in the 300 year old union at Parc other hugely

integrated state like the UK falls up some of these countries were

involved and what can be described as Delphic divorces in which both

sides wanted to separate. That is not the case here and I am reminded

very forcibly in this debate about the phrase used a week ago - to

many people in Scottish politics were looking through the wrong end

of the telescope. That was directed at Alex Salmond and the SNP. When

people get around the negotiating table after a yes vote, the side

representing the rest of the UK will be there to represent the

views of the people of England, Northern Ireland and Wales that

they can be relied upon to drive a hard bargain. One wonders why they

should not because that is what they are therefore. Thank you for

being on the programme this afternoon. That is all from us just