07/09/2011 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to the first Politics Scotland of the new

Holyrood session. The First Minister has led the way in

outlining the laws the government wants to pass in the next year.

There's to be one police force for the whole of Scotland, instead of

the current eight. The idea is to save money and improve efficiency,

but it is controversial. And this is the scene in the main chamber at

Hoylrood as the debate continues on the SNP Government's plans. Other

laws include minimum pricing for alcohol and measures to tackle

sectarianism. We'll be back to the parliament in a moment.

It's a very busy day at Hoylrood and here to talk us through it is

the political commentator Hamish Macdonnell. Let's put this in some

kind of context. We have an SNP government which has a majority.

That is never heard of in devolution so far. What

opportunities has that given them? It is hard to estimate how ground-

breaking this is. All governments have been minorities or in

coalition. The SNP has a majority. It can do what it likes. This is

its big opportunity. It can pass any laws within the devolved

settlement it wants to. But when they were a minority at the station,

they wanted to be competent in government and Alex Salmond said he

hoped to continue that in government of. Does that give us a

clue to the sign -- kind of laws he will be setting out? Some critics

have been suggesting these next couple of years will be a very

quiet approach from the SNP with everything geared up to

independence. A kind of, don't rock the vote because everything is this

push for the referendum on independence. I think some of those

critics must be tempted to say, I told you so. We have 16 bills which

seems an awful lot. We have seen a number of tidying up exercises.

Very few are radical or controversial. Is that fair

reflection of their experience in government? If you look back to

their first term when they had these ideas like local income tax.

Very radical change to the way local government finance is

organised, that was dropped. They could have brought that backing but

that has been dropped completely. We are now dealing with things that

look like they are tinkering around the edges a bit more. Their major

priority has been the economy and Alex Salmond has talked about that

again today. How important is that going to be in the years ahead?

economy is absolutely central and it was central to his speech today

as well. He made a big point of saying every 16-19-year-old would

have a place in employment or training. But we have heard this

before. Delivering on the economy is going to be harder than saying

they can provide those places. is nothing if not a confident

individual and he often talks about being more ambitious for Scotland.

If you look at some of the debates we have already had, the

sectarianism bill which they are going to take action on, you also

have the minimum pricing for alcohol, they are being ambitious

in some ways. They are, and they are being controversial in one or

two. Minimum pricing, sectarianism and one police force. Those are the

ones they will have trouble with. Not necessarily in the chamber,

because they can rail road anything they what through, but in central

and important parts of civic Scotland. I think they have got a

bit of a rough road ahead on minimum pricing, sectarianism and

on the single police force, and I think those ones are controversial.

They will prove difficult to persuade Scotland as a whole that

they are worth pursuing. Put the speech into some kind of context

Forest. We are not expecting a great deal of detail from Alex

Salmond today. The First Minister gives a broad theme, a global theme

for the next year of what his administration is going to do, and

over the next few days and the next couple of weeks, we will see each

Cabinet Minister giving the detail and taking their place.

The First Minister outlined his law-making plans just before we

came on air. Let's listen to some of his speech.

I have great pleasure in introducing the Government's

programme for the coming session. Every way today, men and women,

yearn to be productive. They are ready to work because they often a

life of unemployment is no life at all. Political leaders over to

these young people to create the conditions that encourage growth.

From growth comes work, with work comes security and confidence. With

confidence comes prosperity and a deeper sense of well-being, not

just for individuals and families but for the wider community. That

is how we create the good society, the fair society, and it is the

heart of the programme for government that I outline today.

Recent events in Europe and the United States have highlighted the

fragility of the global recovery. Some are even suggesting another

blast of recession threatens the world, certainly threatens the

Western economies. While I believe we can continue to grow, the fact

pete double-dip is at the door is in part due to the mistakes of

those who choke recovery with their attempts to deficit reduction. A

new government economic strategy will be published followed by the

spending review allocating the Scottish budget. There is no better

articulation than his record in managing the public finances. Our

first priority is that the new plan is promoting capital investment in

the economy. Our previous decision to accelerate capital was a

considerable success with growth and construction jobs at 11.6 %

over the year to the first quarter of 2011 compared to a fall in the

United Kingdom as a whole. At the end of June we opened plans to

generate as many as 20,000 jobs for our economy over the years ahead.

It is ahead of Schedule and under budget. We will deliver key

infrastructure projects, the Glasgow South hospital project. We

will take forward a new Housing Investment Programme which is

starting with �400 million budget which is estimated to support 1,500

jobs across the country. The second way to assist economic

recovery is to improve access to finance. We have a blockage at the

moment with many large companies holding significant amounts of

capital but many of our smaller and most dynamic companies constrained

by an inability to secure affordable finance from our banks.

To address this we have established the Scottish Investment Bank which

is now open and lending to Scottish companies. Yesterday I announced an

investment in life sciences business seeking to grow

internationally from its base and creating much-needed and well paid

and highly skilled jobs in that community. However, the Scottish

Investment back cannot take the place of bank lending as a total

resource available is some �200 million. Compared to Scotland's

share of lending for small and medium-sized businesses of �6.5

billion. Therefore we continue to press the banks and the UK

government to improve the supply of finances. We still need the UK to

show the same kind of initiative and come forward with a plan for

boosting business growth. The Scottish government will not wait

for the UK to show initiative. That would be a hazardous policy and a

long wait. A jobs agenda is at the very heart of this programme for

government. We are committed to doing everything in our power to

reduce youth unemployment which has fallen by 2,000 in the last year,

but it remains far too high. We have responded with a range of

initiatives including providing almost 300,000 training

opportunities since 2007, including a record 25,000 modern

apprenticeships this year which we now commit to for every single year

of this Parliament. That annual level is some 60 % higher than when

he came to office. We will make sure that access to higher

education is based in Scotland and the ability to succeed rather than

the ability to pay and we will maintain bursary support and have

young people remain engaged in college and training. We will

invest in pre-employment training opportunities and we shall continue

to fund the educational maintenance allowance for young people in

school and college. Our key commitment is to these young people

who, as I said, yearn to be productive. No young person should

go through school to become an unemployment statistic at the age

of 16. We will not allow that in Scotland. We already have 85 % of

school-leavers going on to positive outcomes. That is employment,

education or training. The 125,000 modern apprenticeships over five

years will build on that success. But the strength of Scottish

apprenticeships is the link to a real job. Expanding be on that

hugely impressive number is dependent on the labour market

there. That is why, today, I can announce the Opportunities for All

initiative. Every single 16-19- year-old in Scotland will be

offered a learning or training place if they are not in employment.

In the context of the unprecedented and extended real cuts being made

to our budget over the coming years, it becomes even more important as a

component of this Government's's programme. If we are to maintain

the levels of public services we all want, we need to do things

smarter and better. Therefore, I have appointed the Christie

Commission to look at ways to reform public services while

improving. It recommended an emphasis on collaboration. There

was also focus on investing in prevention, which in the longer

term can save money to. We will publish the response in the very

near future. In health, we will take action to improve the early

detection of cancer. A bill on minimum pricing for alcohol will

tackle the scourge of alcohol on Scottish society and families. We

will make sure services are organised around the needs of the

individual. A Bill on self directed support will put those receiving

care at the heart of decision- making. And we will deliver our

commitments to carers and young carers in particular around better

information, respite and support. In addition, in education we will

introduce far-reaching reforms for post 16 learning and student

support. We will set these out in a pre-legislative paper. Let me

affirm our absolute commitment to keep university education three for

Scott his students so that access to education is based on the

ability to learn. To demonstrate our commitment to young people, we

will introduce a Rights of Children and Young People Bill. We are

motion a consultation on that tomorrow. We will introduce an

alias change fund and build on our children's writes belt. We will

develop family centres and a parent in strategy. We will introduce a

European style system of language teaching and a new programme of

Scottish Studies so that our children can acquire a deeper

understanding of their own diverse culture and Scotland's place in the

wider world. Our colleagues in the Conservative benches have dismissed

Scottish Studies as indoctrination. I cannot imagine any other nation

we teaching your own history, arts and literature in an impartial way

would be dismissed in such a negative fashion. It is more

surprising given the new found Conservative interest in their own

history but that history also teaches us that success takes more

than a change of name but also a change of attitude. Injustice, we

will make Scotland a safer country by rolling out the No Knives,

Better Lives programme, bringing forward a radical reform. We will

progress the bill to crackdown on violent and bigoted behaviour.

Official statistics published yesterday report that crime levels

in our country are now at their lowest level since 1976, 35 years.

Separate figures also confirm police numbers remained well above

our target to keep 1,000 additional officers in Scotland's communities.

Scots are feeling safer. 71 % say that local crime has improved or

stayed the same. 94 % of Scots now rate their neighbourhood as a very

or fairly good place to live. But there is widespread recognition

that reform is needed so that we can create the services fit for

21st century Scotland. Communities do not care about boundaries, they

want services to work effectively and efficiently. After detailed

consideration of all the evidence available, we are persuaded that a

single police services and a single Fire and Rescue Service are the

right options. This is the only way in terms of the police service to

maintain the number of officers in every community right across

Scotland. It will sustain and improve the delivery of local

services by giving all parts of Scotland access to national

expertise and assets whenever and wherever they are needed. And the

reform will enhance national bills, securing a clear separation of

Minister -- ministers. I am announcing our intention to move

towards single services. Tomorrow, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice

will provide Parliament with further information on how we will

seek views on the options for how the new services will work in

detail. This programme for government, the Government economic

strategy, the spending review, set out how we will make full use of

the powers currently devolved with the aim of improving Scotland's

rate of sustainable economic growth. It is also important to reflect on

the type of country and economy we want to be in the future. In May,

the people of Scotland voted for change. They want this Parliament

to have the control, flexibility and freedom to make the decisions

Many of the key job-creating powers lie outside the remit of Scottish

Government. Around 90% of Scotland revenues are collected by

Westminster and are not set with any reference to economic

circumstances here, or the preferences and needs of our

businesses and households. With greater responsibility we can

address these needs. The Scotland Bill as it stands fails to make

things better. The tax proposals that are designed are potentially

damaging and could result in less funding for Scotland. Even more

importantly, they provide no meaningful economic levers and

failed to give Scotland power over its own wealth and resources. We

look to work with the Westminster Government and its Parliament to

strengthen the Scotland built to legislation that will really take

Scotland forward. I mentioned earlier that the Conservative Party

would benefit from knowing its own history and that applies to Labour

and the Liberal Democrats as well. They should remember the claimed

that they signed before the establishment before this

Parliament. Let me remind the chamber what it said. We do hereby

acknowledge the solemn rite of the Scottish people to form a

Government best suited to their needs and we pledge that in all our

actions their interest shall be paramount. In May, the people of

Scotland determined that they wanted key additions to the

Scotland Bill. It is now the duty of the parties to response to the

will of the Scottish people. I ask them to remember their policies.

Today we unveil a programme for Government. Practical measures to

make our citizens safer and healthier, bred for investment to

aid his recovery. I welcome constructive ideas across the

chamber on how to make Scotland better. Making Scotland better is

the focus of this Government. That is why we won historic victory in

May. It was recognition of competence and commitment. It was

also about Scotland and our nation's future. The people are

ready to move on to the next chapter of Scotland's story. Our

first objective in the constitution as set out in the electoral

campaign, was to set out new job- creating powers for this Parliament.

Voters understand that the SNP also believe in independence. They

understand it and they do not fear it. We have won their trust and we

will not abuse it. We know they are listening to the positive story

that we have to tell about their future as parents, students,

entrepreneurs, professionals. They share our excitement about the

project at hand to build a better nation. Independence will improve

the future for all these people. It will be an independence generation.

It is the opposite of dependence, limited ambition, negativity,

pessimism. It means rejecting those that tell us we are too lazy or too

poor. In fact Scotland is in a better financial position than the

UK as a whole. We have been for four out of the last five years

recorded. Our successful sons and daughters support more real

economic power for Scotland. The population is growing. Numerically

as well as in comfort. As that population is made up of millions

of individuals, communities, families and businesses, that lie

at the centre of this programme for Government, the Government economic

strategy is a spending review. We are global in spirit and we listen

to voices of economic sanity, virgin world leaders to invest in

the future. This Government prefers to think big for Scotland because

this Government knows where it is going. We have Scotland's interests

at the heart of the programme we have outlined today. The people

trust us to take Scotland further on its journey and so should this

chamber. APPLAUSE.

The can see the whole of that speech -- you can see the whole of

that speech on our online democracy live page.

Scottish Labour leader in grey was the first to respond.

For four years of an SNP minority administration, the First Minister

duty brought -- dutifully brought forward his plans and then he

cancelled or smothered them. It was always someone else's fault. He

still cannot tell us about the Scotland that he wants to see. He

cannot tell us what currency it would have. How it would defend

itself. Which institutions it would share with our neighbours. Whether

it would be a member of NATO or not. How it would enter into the

European Union, if it could. He cannot tell us how our benefits and

pensions will be secured. In fact the one thing he has told us for

sure about the Scotland that he wants, is that the Queen would

remain our head of state. He told her that right here only a few

weeks ago. Of course, then it turned out that he could not

actually be sure of that because his party's policy is to have a

referendum on that matter as well. There is nothing he can tell us

about the proposition, after all this time. The First Minister has a

mandate for this now. He has a majority for it in this Parliament.

He has a draft bill, or so he says. He has no credible excuse for not

bringing that Bill forward. Except that he does not think that the

people of Scotland are ready to have their say, because they might

not give him the answer he wants. What do we find in this legislative

programme? There is, I think, in the creation of a Scottish police

force and fire service face substantial -- face substantial

reform, and one that I have made clear that we will support. We will

not get this right if the argument is sorely made in terms of saving

money. This is a real opportunity to strengthen local democratic

accountability of our policing at a more local level than we have now,

and at the same time to streamline policing of organised crime, terror

and fraud at national level. I am concerned that the plant built will

be narrowly drawn, and will not allow us to look again at other

issues. -- the planned bill. Such as restrictions on carbonated

alcohol, for example. We should be able to extend other Test

purchasing and increase support for the children that are exposed to

the excesses of our coal fuelled behaviour. If the bill cannot do

that, that will be an opportunity for Scotland lost. The sectarian

bill is another one that we support, but critically. Critically because

it is another area of great difficulty. I think that has been

demonstrated and reinforced by the inexplicable judgment in

Edinburgh's High Court in the recent case of an assault against a

nationally known figure, which appeared on live television. The

lesson for us is of course that these offences are on the statute

book. There will is there, but making those offences were it is

hard. That is why the First Minister was right to delay this

legislation, to extend the timetable. It is why we must take

our time to get it right. On higher education, too, we agree with the

Government on the principle of free education. But the funding

situation is already spiralling out of control. Of course fees for

students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland had to rise. Of

course the fundamental problems is caused by soaring fees in the rest

of the United Kingdom. I do not deny that. But we now have the

crazy situation where by Edinburgh University is the most expensive

university in Britain. That is not what the Education Secretary said

he wanted or expected. He said he expected that fees would be set in

the range of �1,800 to �9,000. It is hard to escape the conclusion

that frankly the universities are laughing at home and giving their

own way. He needs to get a grip and question of fees for Scottish

students is one element of how we find our higher education sector.

There are many other questions we need to resolve and resolved

urgently. In the list of bills, there are others there. I am sure

we will support others. The National Library build, I apologise

to the National Library for poking fun at it earlier. We will also

support, for example, a self- they erected care bill. It is late as

well. It was promised well over a year ago. But this is what I meant

about opportunity. A Government with a majority five-year term

ahead of it could legislate today to create the National Care Service

that would integrate health and social care, stand alongside the

NHS and give a guarantee to our older people and those with

disabilities that they will be looked after. That would be bold

and dramatic and would change Scotland for the future. Alex

Salmond will grind on and on day after weary day about the powers he

does not have. I can hear him now. If only I have the powers to do

this or that. Well, First Minister, today's opinion poll in the Times

could not be clearer. They say get on with the referendum and get it

out of the road. But if the First Minister went, and if he refuses to

answer questions on independence, would he please stop concentrating

on using the powers that he does have? Let me say from the outset

that they run -- their of measures that we can accept and some we

cannot. Let me highlight a couple. Firstly, sectarianism. The

Government was right to acknowledge the problem, write to contemplate

legislation but wrong to try and rush it through. It was sensible to

pause, reflect and consult. Let's make sure that this bill actually

addresses the evil of sectarianism and contributes to its eradication.

And second over reform of the police forces. The Scottish

Conservatives have accepted the positive, but the issue of public

accountability is paramount. The Scottish Government's reform of

policing cannot concentrate power in the hands of one minister and

one police chief, without the public protection of democratic

accountability. I hope that the First Minister will listen to us.

Presiding officer, this afternoon I also want to put down some markers

about the big challenges facing our country and our people. Challenges

which transcend constitutional issues or party politics. Three

years ago I gave a speech which in the light of recent developments

has a renewed resonance. I said that a new threat was emerging from

the shadows, which was insidious and corrosive. The threat to which

I referred was not drug and alcohol abuse. He did not arise out of

something that people do but rather something they do not do. I am

talking about parenting skills, or sadly in far too many places, the

complete lack of them. Too many parents don't or can't extend to

their children the parenting skills that are essential if young

children are to have any hope of growing up with guidance, support

and boundaries. Why don't they do it? Sadly, they were the children

of parents that did not possess these skills. Disturbingly we may

be moving into the third generation of this parental void. Look around

our society in Scotland and ask our teachers. Depressing evidence is

all too obvious. Indeed, the 2010- 11 report from the Children's

Reporter wrote that the number of children in the third generations

of poor parental care was 13,000. We all recognise that is a deeply

disturbing number. That is not an abstract bit of data, these are

young lives being ruined. 13,000 children in that desperate

situation and these are just the ones that we know about. And they

are our nation's future, and not just that. They are the parents of

the future. I welcome the First Minister's intention to address the

issue, but only time will tell if legislation is what we need. We

certainly need a long-term strategy to deal with the new problem. We

cannot just cobble together solutions to deal with individual

problems as they arrive. We cannot hope that the problem will solve

The Liberal Democrats initially opposed, have now reflected and

considered and will support the SNP's plans to tackle the plight of

alcohol which holds back communities. It is backed by a wide

range of health bodies. Alcohol hits communities with anti-social

behaviour, the health effects are severe, it impacts on children and

families. As a Liberal Democrat, I want to remove the barriers that

called people back from getting up and getting on in their lives.

Excessive drinking of alcohol is one of those barriers. The smoking

ban was a success. It was a bold measure by the last majority

government. I think we can tackle the plight of Arkle to in this

Parliament. Just a quick recap on the Bills

announced today. Action on alcohol, sectarianism, the budget, April on

the National Library of Scotland, social care, police and fire

service reform. Joining us now from our Edinburgh

studio is Professor Richard Kerley from Queen Margaret University.

He's an expert on the search for efficiencies in public

organisations like the police. It has been talked about for long

enough but we have finally confirmation in the chamber at

Holyrood that eight pieces -- the police forces will soon be no more.

It is no great surprise to anybody. We will get the detail tomorrow. It

seems to me that on the basis of the available arguments, there is

still a very important case to be made by the Government. They have

the votes and a cancer cure whatever outcome they wish in terms

of legislation, -- they can secure whatever outcome they wish in terms

of legislation. The Fire and rescue Service have often been hidden

behind the police. The initial consultation did not show any great

enthusiasm for having a single force in place and a single force

in fire and rescue. It was actually markedly hostile to it. The second

factor is that an awful lot of the calculation has been built around

savings in the budget which could be achievable under either of the

two major change models proposed. The single force models all the

three or four models. It will be interesting to see how the debate

plays out. The Police Federation has been convinced that this is

probably a good idea. That has been done in part by saying that they

will not suffer any attack on their terms and conditions which police

officers in other parts of the UK might suffer. How important EU

think spending cash has been in persuading people? There are two

different aspects to that. One is that time will tell because the

figures that have been assembled in the various business cases propose

for both policing and Fire and rescue are predicated on making

changes to terms and conditions. Altering shift patterns, ordering

premium payments, altering or manner of incentive payments. It

will not hit the basic level of payment but there are other areas

where there will be implications from the changes and they are built

into the car donations of the financial efficiencies. Some of

these are impress -- incredibly detailed and they are swept up in a

savings figure of �5 million over three or four years and it is only

when it works its way down the system that a 1,000 or 2,000

uniformed police officers on certain shifts say, what has

happened to me? The second factor that is really fundamental to all

of this is that by creating one or even a three-piece forces, you do

have, unless you make very detailed, special provisions which uses a lot

of the efficiency, you must have an impact on terms and conditions. If

we have a single police force, one of the questions is whether

somebody who lives in Glasgow or Edinburgh or Dumfries is available

to join the police force is available for posting to Wick or

anyone else within the country. One force, one posting. That would be a

fairly dramatic change. If you look at some of the committees the

Scottish government has set up in recent years, we had the Christie

Commission which published earlier in the summer, you get the sense

they were building some evidence for some great reform programme and.

Do you get a sense of a great reform programme in this

announcement? I would not say there is a great reform programme in the

sense of a clean sweep of every set of public services. Bear in mind

what the independent public review did was to outline some of the cost

alternatives and some of the expenditure alternatives and

therefore the savings available to the Government. It is building up

that momentum. The Christie Commission, I noticed the First

Minister said they would be responding to that report shortly.

No timescale to that but no doubt we will find out over the next few

days. Also discussed and outlined, it kind of trade up the ground for

making some of the changes that I think will be quite significant

over the next five or 10 years. But there is not a clean sweep in this.

It is very important that if you want to make major changes to

public services as could happen over time, that you take people

along, not just those employed in the service and those running it,

because they have their own interest, but you build up public

acceptability of change as well. A great line from the First Minister,

a levy speech line which was, communities don't care about

boundaries. He was talking in relation to the peace force.

Actually, if not quite, First Minister. A lot of evidence coming

back over many decades is that communities to care quite a lot

about boundaries. They're not very good at defining them in a neat and

tidy way but they have a sense of, people who live in a small village

think there nearest city is a long way away. They will be anxious

about how these decisions are made. Thank you very much for your time.

Hamish, what have you made of today's proceedings? I felt it was

a low-key speech. I thought it was a below keep this -- debate as well

when you think this was the big kick-off for the new parliamentary

year. What we have and what we are witnessing is a government which

has already been in power for four years and it is losing that sense

of newness and adventure that we might have had four years ago. I

think as well that there is perhaps a sense, People don't like to admit

it, Parliament does not matter as much as it used to. Alex Salmond

has the votes and the opposition can say what they like but they are

never going to really turn things over. For both of those reasons, it

was a little bit low key and some of that tension there we used to

have when the Government had to fight to get things through has

disappeared. We heard during the speech Alex Salmond referring quite

a lot to the issue of independence. It's not something that will be

part of his legislative programme but he was making the argument in

the last week. We have had a couple of opinion polls suggesting more

people supported the idea than were against it. The Times today

suggested something else. Where do you think we are in that debate

now? Independence has come to the forefront of political debate in

the way that it wasn't doing the first four years of SNP government

because the SNP has a majority. The polls are moving in their direction.

The Unionists will say, they are not there yet, and they are right.

But will -- with every successive pole, the margin get smaller, and

the polls are moving in Alex Salmond's direction. His plan to

put of the referendum at -- put off the referendum for as long as

possible is based on the premise that this trend will continue.

Maybe in a three years' time when he was to put that question, the

polls will be pretty tight indeed. You have the two main opposition

figures, Iain Gray, who will not be here when these may be voted on,

and neither will Annabel Goldie. What is the state of opposition at

the moment? There is not much opposition in Holyrood. They have

not got the votes and two of them have not got the leaders. There

really is not much of an opposition at all. Iain Gray's performance was

good, it was up to the standard we expect of him, as was Annabel

Goldie's, but they are on their way out. They are leaving behind them

parties that do not really know where to turn or were to turn to.

have got to ask you that the Scottish Conservatives, the

proposal that they should no longer be any Scottish Conservatives. Do

you think that will give people have that centre rite opinion and

latitude? Many people and wealthy people who will back a new centre,

right party, who won not backing the Conservatives at the moment.

The problem they have is that the people to vote on the idea are the

8,500 members of the Conservative Party in Scotland who worry pretty

conservative lot and they may not like dropping the name of their

party and changing it completely, however many people out there want

to back it. I think he has got a good radical idea which has thrown

open his party leadership and a thrown open Scottish politics but

he has a big job in trying to get it through the membership. People

are at the very least talking about the Scottish Conservative Party.

Not much discussion about the vacancy at the top of the Scottish

Labour Party. Two people declared, kind of, we think. What the

Scottish Labour Party needs is a thumping -- something radical to

get people talking about the Scottish Labour Party and the

Scottish Labour leadership. It is pretty bad if the main opposition

party at Holyrood has nobody really caring too much where it is going

for was going to reap lead it. They need to get somebody to get into

that leadership contest to say, I have got some radical ideas, let's

talk about them and let's put this forward. Briefly, do you think this

programme for government will excite many people outside the

chamber? No, I don't think it will, that they are waiting for the

referendum. Just to remind you, we have

extensive coverage of the programme for government not only on the

television but on our online site. There will also be an extended

version of the Newsnight Scotland programme this evening available on