Browse content similar to 07/12/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
programme: There's an angry reaction as the Scottish government | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
has just confirmed none of the Beauly-Denny power line will be | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
laid underground. As Scotland's Fisheries Minister | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
sets out his reaction to the EU cod recovery plan, we hear from a | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
worried industry. And here at Westminster, David | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
Cameron says he will fight for Britain's interests at this week's | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
crucial EU summit on the debt crisis. | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
In the last few minutes, the Scottish government has confirmed | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
that parts of the new Beauly to Denny power line will be laid | :00:51. | :01:00. | |
underground. - not be laid. Objectors to the scheme had hoped | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
unsightly pylons would be replaced by cables, which would protect the | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
beauty of the landscape. Let's hear what the minister had to say. | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
The upgrade is a key to the new jobs and renewables. The upgrade is | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
essential for us to reach our renewables target, and for ensuring | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
energy security. Consent for the line therefore had widespread | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
support across this Parliament. My predecessor announced consent for | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
the Beauly-Denny line in Parliament on 6th January 2010. The consent | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
attached a number of conditions to protect the public. Also the | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
environment and our culture heritage, and also to take into | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
account the views of communities along the length of the line. Those | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
conditions are being met. Existing pylons are coming down, and work is | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
progressing apiece. When consent was granted, the importance of | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
mitigating the him impact of the line at Stirling was recognised and | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
the condition was imposed accordingly. In short, condition 19 | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
requires that proposals for mitigating the visual impact of the | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
line near Stirling must be approved by Scottish ministers before the | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
towers and a transmission line can be erected. Following a lengthy | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
process of engagement and consultation, Scottish Power | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
Transmission submitted proposals for that skirling visual impact | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
mitigation scheme on 26th August of this year. I wish to inform | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
Parliament that I am approving those proposals for the 400 KV line, | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
but with some important and additional further proposals to | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
this decision, I have taken into account all the relevant material | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
considerations, and have had regard to the views presented by Stirling | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
council representing the communities involved. I have also | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
considered the views of my consultants, Scottish Natural | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
Heritage, and Scottish government officials, as well as the findings | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
of the reporter to the public inquiry in 2009. I have toured the | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
length of the consented line covered by a condition 19 with my | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
consultants and officials. I have considered carefully the proposals | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
contained in the scheme. The proposals made by Scottish Power | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
Transmission employ mitigation methods, including landscape | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
reinforcement, the underground in of existing low-voltage overhead | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
lines, and other compensatory measures in seven locations. These | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
proposals offer an important level of mitigation to landscape and | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
visual impact of the line. Let's be clear. The Beauly-Denny overhead | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
Line upgrade is the most important infrastructure upgrade in several | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
generations. There is a pressing need to get on with this | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
development. The transition -- transmission network was built in | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
the 50s and designed to transport electricity generated by large | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
plants located close to their sources of fuel, namely the coal | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
fields of England and the central belt of Scotland. The renewables | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
ambitions of modern Scotland have a very different requirements. Energy | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
generated at the periphery must now be transported to the centres of | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
population. That clean green energy revolution is transforming Scotland, | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
building on our distinctive competitive advantage in renewable | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
energy. It is, presiding officer, delivering thousands of jobs and | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
hundreds of millions of pounds of investment. Condition 19 requires | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
that Scottish ministers consult with Stirling Castle before | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
approving proposals and this requirement has been met. I have | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
undertaken a formal consultation with the council, beginning on 30th | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
August, which extended from 30 to 45 days. My officials have melt | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
which -- met with Stirling council on several occasions, and I | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
recently did so myself to hear their views first-hand. In making | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
this decision I have been mindful of the views of many in sterling | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
that theShould be underground. Underground in the upgrade in the | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
sterling area was comprehensively examined during the public inquiry, | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
and subsequently in the report produced for skirling council -- | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
Stirling council I have considered all of the recent relevant reports | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
on underground ring of High Voltage transmission lines. Objective | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
consideration leads me to conclude that the net reduction in impact | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
realised from underground link the route would be relatively modest in | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
most occasions, especially once the potential impact of the ceiling and | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
compounds are taken into account. The evidence presented is that but | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
in the lines underground would require a ceiling and compound at | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
the point where the line is underground and then we services. | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
These compounds would have a significant impact in their own | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
right. Such compounds for a 400 KV transmission line would be of the | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
size upwards of 30 by 80 metres - almost as big as a football pitch. | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
This would have to be accommodated into the landscape, instead of the | :06:17. | :06:24. | |
pylons. Estimates for the cost of but in the lines underground very | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
from �28.7 million for a section of only 1.6 kilometres up to �263 | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
million for putting the whole route underground. I do not find it | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
appropriate to seek approval from Ofgem for spending up to �263 | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
million of electricity consumers' money, especially at a time of such | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
economic difficulty. Given the issues and the limited | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
environmental benefits that putting the lines underground would bring, | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
it simply cannot be justified. Underground is normally only | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
considered as a mitigation intervention to address | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
extraordinary circumstances where major adverse impact are predicted, | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
and where it would be effective where other mitigation options are | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
ruled out as ineffective. While I have listened carefully to views | :07:16. | :07:23. | |
from all sides, I agree with the findings of the reporter, as well | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
as our own report, and have agreed that these exceptional | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
circumstances do not apply to sterling. The conclusion of the | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
public inquiry and of my consultants was that the impact of | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
the consented line at Stirling are, in the main, my neck to moderate at | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
first. And, the prospect of programme delays is also important. | :07:44. | :07:53. | |
A timely Beaulieu Denny upgrade his critical to the wider programme of | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
road reinforcement required for Scotland to realise it's almost -- | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
enormous renewable potential. Best estimates suggest that put in the | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
lines underground would lead to a delay of approximately two - three | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
years. Clearly, therefore, there would be financial impact in terms | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
of restraining renewables, but the wider implications that such delays | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
would have on great improvements and renewables Investment would | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
carry even greater economic problems. Overall, I conclude that | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
the position of the reported to the public inquiry remains appropriate, | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
having regard to the cost of the alternatives, the technical | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
problems associated with it, and to the limited environmental benefits | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
that it would offer, the case made for but in the lines underground | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
has not been justified. If it is not appropriate to underground the | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
main 400 KV line, the question remains as to how best you can | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
further protect and support the communities affected. First, I have | :08:50. | :08:58. | |
requested that the existing overhead 132 gave the line is | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
underground. This will give -- carried a cost of �12.9 million for | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
seven kilometres of steel pylons removed. This represents a much | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
more efficient use of money than the �28.7 billion for a section of | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
only 1.6 kilometres, or of the �263 million for a section of a 15 | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
kilometres, and it will not delay the main Beauly-Denny development. | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
The costs are justified. The reported to the public inquiry | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
recognised that the benefit this option bring to the wide area, | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
providing both landscape and visual benefits by reducing the wire scape. | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
My consultants recognise the value of this proposal, surmising that it | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
produced direct visual benefits for South and eastern areas by | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
offsetting the impact of the proposed line, as well as providing | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
both landscape and visual benefits to the wider area by reducing the | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
wire escape. I am satisfied that between the lines underground in | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
this case is justified. But in underground an existing line is a | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
different proposition to a 400 KV line. It will be achieved at lower | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
costs and will not delay the project, and it will not require | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
further sealing and compounds. It will deliver significant benefits | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
at manageable costs. Secondly, I have asked that wider landscape | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
enhancement is pursued, developing the Central Scotland green networks | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
initiative in the area. My consultants have recommended a | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
wider landscape enhancement scheme to deliver a range of benefits. The | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
costs of this would be known until the relevant parties work together | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
to develop the scheme. But I would ask you to consider for a moment | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
what even a fraction of the money that some have proposed to spend on | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
underground lines would do for specific landscape in the 80s in | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
the area that will deliver long and lasting benefits of two communities | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
in the sterling area. Such an enhanced scheme will also assist | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
the Scottish government to make progress against a number of | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
national performance indicators, namely increasing people's use of | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Scotland's outdoors through the provision of cycle paths, support | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
biodiversity through the creation of woodland habitat, and reducing | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
Scotland's carbon foot print by creating new wooden. Scottish Power | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
Transmission must now work alongside Stirling council, the | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
Forestry Commission and other relevant parties to develop a broad | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
sweep of proposals for improvements to amenities in the area. Most | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
importantly, I encourage the communities involved to actively | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
engage with this process to facilitate the environmental | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
improvements in their area. My opinion is that this represents an | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
affordable option with the potential to provide substantial | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
long-lasting landscape biodiversity and civic amenity benefits. | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
Particular mention has been made of the increase in webscape where the | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
consented line meets the existing twin overhead power lines. This has | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
been highlighted by both the public inquiry and our inquiry. This area | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
will benefit significantly from the proposals but will remain greatly | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
affected by existing and new power lines. I have therefore asked that | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
particular attention is given to this area. Furthermore, I also take | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
on board expressed in packs on the area of great landscape value. | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
Although my consultants agree that impact here are not of a | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
significance which affect the integrity, I have also asked that | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
particular intention is paid to improving this in this area. This | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
is an important issue. I have been acutely conscious of the feelings | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
of the communities in the area of the consented overhead line. The | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
communities who have played an active role in this process and | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
made a substantial contribution. My decision represents a way forward | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
which maximises the potential benefits to the people of sterling | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
from the costs which are incurred by the public and avoids the later | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
this crucial development. Mike decision has been made available | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
and I commend this decision to the parliament. | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
Let's get some analysis now on that statement from our Environment | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
Correspondent David Miller. How will campaigners who wanted to | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
see this stretch of line being put underground react to this news, do | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
you think? I think we can expect them to react with dismay. Speaking | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
to some of them before the ministerial statement, they were | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
already fearing the worst. They were talking about a failure of the | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
democratic process. They were talking about a shoddy decision by | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
the Scottish government. Clearly, they are very angry. They will take | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
some time to consider their position, but it is very difficult, | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
given the strength of the minister's statement, to see where | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
their campaign will go from here. It is now clear that the Beauly- | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
Denny line will be built over ground in the sterling area, and | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
that is because -- has caused real concern for many local people. | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
was Scottish Power approached to put in the lines underground? | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
Primarily on the grounds of cost. The company says that in the line | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
underground in this area, on this 12 mile stretch of the line, would | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
be the equivalent of building a four-lane motorway underground. We | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
had the Minister saying there will be an additional cost of �263 | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
million. The company has always argued that the environmental | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
benefits would not justified the cost. They point out that the cost | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
for this work, as indeed applies to any upgrade of the power great, has | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
to be met by consumers. That is the way the industry is structured in | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
this country, so an extra �263 million will put in the Line | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
Underground would be paid for by you and me, and everyone else who | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
pays an electricity bill. Beauly-Denny project has been | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
considered very controversially and it has been difficult politically | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
for the Scottish government as well. What you think it is so important? | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
It is important because, of course, the Scottish government puts such | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
massive weight on the importance of building a green energy industry in | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
Scotland. We have heard the First Minister Alex Salmond say time and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
time again that Scotland is a Europe's green energy powerhouse. | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
The problem for Scotland is that many of our green energy resources | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
are in the north of the country. For example, tidal and wave | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
projects tend to be centred on the north coast. Orkney is a leader | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
there. Wind farms tend to be in relatively remote areas, and that | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
is something we will see as we continue to develop offshore wind | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
generation in Scotland, so the challenge is getting that power to | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
the Central Belt where most of the consumers are, and potentially | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
exporting it on to England and the rest of the UK. To do that, the | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
Scottish government, the renewable energy industry, are clear that | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
Beauly-Denny must happen quickly if we are to cash in on a fat green | :16:25. | :16:35. | |
A leading mar debt analyst said it is preposterous to believe an | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
independent referendum would not create uncertainty for investors. | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
Peter Atherton was ghifg was giving evidence this morning. His | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
appearance comes less than a month after Citigroup warned green | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
investment could be at risk because Which companies are you aware of | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
have indicated to yourself or to your company that they are not | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
going to invest in Scotland as a result of the independence | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
referendum? We didn't say that they had and we didn't urge anybody to | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
not invest in Scotland. We said people should show caution because | :17:13. | :17:21. | |
the independence, the chance that Scotland succeeds from the UK is an | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
asset risk and the referendum itself creates a degree of | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
uncertainty. We have just written a report highlighting the urn | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
certainty created by the French Presidental election for the | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
utility sector. We did a report ahead of the Spanish general | :17:38. | :17:48. | |
election about the risks and and uncertainty, election create risk | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
and uncertainty. To suggest that Scotland having a referendum | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
referendum carries no uncertainty and no risk for particular sectors | :17:59. | :18:08. | |
is preposterous. Your report says it threat | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
threatens investment. You don't know what is going to happen and | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
also it has been shot by by the investments in Scotland by large | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
companies and by Peter Jones of the Times who says assumption devalue | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
the Citigroup and the future, something which I agree. | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
The idea that you can have alreferendum on -- a referendum on | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
succession and not believe that creates uncertainty in certain | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
sectors like utilities is preposterous. The second second | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
point is on, you know, if you believe that the UK Government | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
can't meet its targets without importing renewable power from | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
Scotland, that's fine. They will no doubt be happy therefore to sign a | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
PPA for that power or agree as we have set out in our second report | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
to say yes, yes, yes to the three questions we set out. Ask them. You | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
need somebody who has the money or has the consumer base to say, "We | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
will back these assets with the level of subsidy we are backing | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
them for the pay back period of the investment." It is simple stuff. | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
If Scotland becomes independent so England or the rest of the UK | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
whatever it might be called would then think, "Do we try to meet our | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
renewable energy targets by buying green energy from Scotland or | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
elsewhere?" Now how would the price of that energy be determined? | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
Treasury, for example, would be concerned about having an open- | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
ended commitment to a foreign country that they could continue to | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
to build whatever they wanted to build and that would be subsidised | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
by the consumers in England and Wales. In the same way that the UK | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
doesn't provide Ireland or France or Holland with an open-ended | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
commitment to buy whatever renewable power they produce. | :20:14. | :20:23. | |
I am joined by Professor John Curtis. Thank you. Before we get to | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
Citigroup. Let's talk about the power line first. Do you think the | :20:28. | :20:36. | |
decision was expected? In the minister's view, the cost wasn't | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
worth incurring given the costs in terms of the visual impairment. | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
What it does illustrate, there are potential obstacles in the way of | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
the realisation of the SNP's vision of a green energy Scotland. As the | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
minister pointed out, he has got to get the electricity through win and | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
wave -- win and wave power from the north of Scotland to the south of | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
Scotland, that requires a power line. We know wind power, again | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
potentially causes a lot of anxiety and argument because people don't | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
necessarily like the wind turbines. The idea of renewable energy sounds | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
great. The Government regards it as being essential to its case for an | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
independent Scotland, but it can cause internal political | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
difficulties and this has been one of the biggest source and | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
disagreements about how the green revolution should be implemented. | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
How does this play out for the SNP? Was it tricky for them before the | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
election and now they have had to make this controversial decision? | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
It is a decision easier to make this side of the election and I | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
heard inside the minister's tone, there is a amount of parking going | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
on. Scottish Power had come up with proposals for trying to ameliorate | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
some of the environmental impact of creating the line and the minister | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
seemed to be saying, "I'm going to insist on more." We are going to | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
have to put more tree to say hide the power line. He is trying to | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
minimise the extent of the opposition by saying, "You may not | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
like this, but you will get compensation." Which might improve | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
the landscape. He is He is trying to deal as carefully as he can. | :22:29. | :22:36. | |
Watch out for fierce politics and a tough decision which any Government | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
has it make while in office. Citigroup, Atherton was blunt in | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
what he was saying, wasn't he? are back to renewables again. | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
Essential to the Citigroup report they were discussing there, was an | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
argument that if Scotland were to become independent, there are | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
question marks about how you could fund the generation of that | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
electricity merely on the basis of demand from within Scotland. The | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
SNP's response to that, "we are going to sell the energy to | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
England." What Mr Atherton was saying, of course, that's fine, but | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
you cannot assume in the long run that a separate England would buy | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
that energy. We can argue about whether or not Citigroup were wise | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
to fall into the general argument about the referendum creating | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
uncertainty which was almost bound to raise a political argument. | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
That's one of the arguments the opponents of the nationalists make, | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
but it is more spes specific arguments about if indeed a | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
renewable Scotland is going to be an economic Powerhouse, it has got | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
to be able to sell its energy and will people be willing to buy it?. | :23:43. | :23:51. | |
That raises an important question about the SNP's energy strategy. | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
We have people like like Citigroup worrying about the dangers of | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
independence. How damaging is it for the Government, do you think? | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
Certainly, the economic arguments about independence as I was | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
pointing out are crucial and part of that argument now is about well, | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
about the timing of the referendum. The parties had little enthusiasm | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
for a referendum before May. Now one seems inevitable, they want to | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
hold one quickly. Part of the reason they are saying that, as | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
long as this issue is uncertain and we won't know what the outcome is, | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
this creates uncertainty. The SNP are insistent on keeping to their | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
timetable and insisting on making a decision about independence isn't | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
disadvantaged. I suspect Citigroup will not be the first set of city | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
analysts sitting in London who will say, "You need to be aware of, at | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
least one of the potential sources of uncertainty is whether or not | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
Scotland becomes independent." If you think this is important, I | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
suspect you will see those arguments being made again. | :25:00. | :25:09. | |
An angry reaction to the Scottish Government's decision not to place | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
any of the new power line underground. | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
Labour has asked why there was a two year delay in making this | :25:18. | :25:28. | |
decision? Many campaigners will be angry they were given false hope. | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
Now, Europe was the big issue during Prime Minister's Questions | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
this afternoon. David Cameron was asked if he would attempt to define | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
the UK's role within the European Union at the EU Summit on Friday. | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
The Prime Minister faced questions about the future of nationalised | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
banks and how the Government's spending cuts were affecting women. | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
Let me remind him on the eve of the biggest postal -- post-war | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
rebellion, he was telling his backbenchers, he was telling his | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
backbenchers that the opportunity of treaty change would mean in the | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
future the repatriation of powers. That was his position six weeks ago. | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
Today he writes an article in the Times, 1,000 word article, not one | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
mention of the phrase, "Repatriation of powers." Why does | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
the Prime Minister think it is in the national interests to tell his | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
backbenchers one thing and his European partners another. | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
Yes, what we want to do particularly in the area of | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
financial services, where this country has a massive national | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
interest, let's remind him, it is 10% of GDP, it is 3% of our trade | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
surplus, 7% of UK employment. I want to make sure we have more | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
power and control in the UK to determine these things. | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
Last year the Prime Minister's manifesto promised to repatriate | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
legal rights, criminal justice and employment and social legislation. | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
His article in the Times this morning is silent on these issues | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
and the Justice Secretary said this agenda is not realistic anyway. | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
Does the Prime Minister regret leading his party up the garden | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
path and forcing himself into a choice between ditching his | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
manifesto or vetoing a treaty that maybe essential to avoid huge | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
damage to the UK economy? What I regret is the party opposite gave | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
away so many powers. It is going to take a while to get some of them | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
back. But We're making progress. When he was in Government, when he | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
was in Government, there were repeated increases in the EU budget. | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
This year, we have achieved an EU budget freeze. When he was in | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
Government, he gave away the bail out power and we had to pour | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
billions of pounds into other countries. We've got that power | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
back and I believe with strong negotiations, standing up for | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
Britain, we can help clear up the mess that Labour left us. | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
Can I tell the Prime Minister that small and medium enterprises in my | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
constituency are having grave difficulty accessing reasonable | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
finance and major contributors to that is lack of competition. Will | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
the Government considering breaking up the nationalised banks in order | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
to be able to create more competition on the high street? | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
I do think we have opportunities to increase the competition on the | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
high street and as we look to return the State banks back into | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
the private sector we will have further opportunities. We have | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
managed to take one step forward which is to get Northern Rock back | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
out there, lending to businesses and to households properly | :28:44. | :28:45. | |
established in the north-east of England. | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
The Prime Minister today has refused to accept that women and | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
children will bear the brunt of his failed economic policy. No wonder | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
he continues to turn off women. Will he accept the Treasury's own | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
figures that 100,000 more children will be living in poverty as a | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
result of his policies? What I would say to the honourable | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
lady is how on earth does it advantage women and children to | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
pile them up with debt after debt after debt that they then have to | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
pay back? We have been standing here for 33 minutes, all we've | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
heard is proposals for for tax reductions, for spending increases, | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
for reforms they wouldn't go ahead with, for scrapping the changes to | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
public sector pensions. They would take the women and children that we | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
are concerned about, pile them high with debt and let them live under | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
that burden for the rest of their days. | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
Let's stay at Westminster. Our correspondent is standing by on | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
College Green. Europe is a developing story at | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
Westminster, this week, isn't it? It was interesting at Prime | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
Minister's Questions, something like 14 of the questions in the 35 | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
minutes minutes there was at Prime Minister's Questions were to do | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
with Europe. In the last couple of hours, the Mayor of London, Boris | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
Johnson, has added his two pen eth to the argument. He said if there | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
is any economic treaty then Britain must have a referendum on that. | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
That's interesting because Boris Johnson is not always helpful to | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
the Tory cause even though he is the conservative Mayor of London, | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
but significant, in an interview with The Spectator magazine, the | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
Northern Ireland Secretary, said he thinks there will be a referendum | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
on all things European which would on the face of it at least appear | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
to be at odds with what David Cameron is saying. Yes, Europe is a | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
big issue and to discuss that with me I'm joined by two Scottish MPs, | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
one from the Liberal Democrats and one for Labour. | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
As far as Labour is concern, is this a party political issue or is | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
the euro crisis now important that British Parliamentarians have to | :31:05. | :31:14. | |
In a sense, it should not be a party issue. When you have got | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
Conservative MPs obsessed with repatriating powers, when we should | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
be sorting out the European economy. The IMF is predicting that the | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
Eurozone could slip into recession next year. There is a jobs and | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
growth crisis, as well as a debt crisis in Europe. We need to see | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
strong leadership, and the Prime Minister should not be having to | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
negotiate with his own Cabinet or his backbenchers. He should be | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
offering that strong leadership and showing that we need a solution to | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
this, we need a fund that will be sufficient to bail out and deal | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
with countries which get into difficulties, but also that hard | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
wires growth and economic expansion into this crisis. That is what is | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
going to get us out of it. David Cameron has started a of | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
every sentence about Europe, "the most vital and important thing is | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
that we do get a deal to save the Euro". Precisely, but his | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
backbenchers think the most important thing is to repatriate | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
social policy and other powers. You can't have it both ways. You can't | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
give them a Northern Lincolns it this is the most important issue | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
and tried to finesse it when it comes to the economy. The European | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
economy is the most important aspect that faces discussions in | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
Parliament at the moment. It is the biggest trading market. We have to | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
get it right. The Prime Minister should be offering leadership, but | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
today it seems he is offering a surrender to some of his | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
backbenchers. Your party is part of the coalition, the smaller party in | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
the coalition. It is generally thought to be more Europhile than | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
most parties at Westminster. How much a big problem is this for the | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
coalition? I agree with what Willie has been saying. This is not about | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
party politics. It is not about what is happening within the | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
coalition. It is more important than that. What we do need to do is | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
sort at the Eurozone crisis, and that means strong leadership, not | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
only from David Cameron, George Osborne, but also, more importantly, | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
from the European leaders. We have had a talk of big bazookas now for | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
about two months. It really has got to the stage where we need action, | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
tough action, and fast action to sort this crisis at. You in the | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
House of Commons, you saw how MP after MP, Tory MP after Tory MP, | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
stood up and said, yes, if you get a deal, we want a say on that and | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
the UK wants a say on that. Yes, but the Lib Dems have probably been | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
the party that has maintained its mind in the greatest possible way | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
throughout all of this Parliament and before. We have always said | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
that if there is a significant treaty that alters the balance of | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
power between Europe and Britain that we should have a referendum, | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
but that is not what has happened in the last 18 months. I don't | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
think it is what is going to happen in the next week. But if it is, | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
then that is the stance that we should have. Really, this is not | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
what we need right now. A referendum on Europe it would be a | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
massive diversion from the real struggle that we have in the | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
economy, and it is not what we should be looking for. A question | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
to you both. Is it perhaps a case that the general electorate is more | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
Euro-sceptic than MPs generally? And perhaps, MPs are slightly out | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
of step with the electorate? don't believe so. I think Europe | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
needs to be reformed. We need to complete the single market because | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
that will drive growth. Having a single energy market would create | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
new opportunities for Scottish jobs, for UK jobs in the energy sector. I | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
think we should be getting on and doing things like that, but not | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
repatriating social policy. The priority is not about ending | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
workers' rights or destroying the protections that have been hard | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
fought in Europe. We need growth and jobs in Europe, and we have it | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
by making sure that those countries which have the ability to spend a | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
bit more, as Germany and some of the other countries do, do so to | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
help the solidarity with the other states who are in difficulty. | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
same question to you, are you out of step with the electorate? | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
don't think so. When people are given a full explanation of how | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
much of our trade is with Europe, what a separation would actually | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
mean, that they are, by and large, supportive of being part of Europe | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
because that is where the majority of our trade is. If it wasn't going | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
there, if we somehow started to look for trade elsewhere, that | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
would be a massive blow to our economy and we would see jobs lost, | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
we would see a massive hit on the economic growth in this country. I | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
did think that is what the UK people want to see. A brief | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
question - do you think we will get a deal on the euro crisis this | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
week? We need one, and the Prime Minister should be fighting for | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
that, not fighting with his own party. I am hopeful that we will | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
get a deal, but this has gone on for too long. I am heartened by | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
what David Cameron said today. He is absolutely clear about the need | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
for protecting financial services in this country, about trying to | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
get a deal in Europe, and not focused on trying to renegotiate | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
these social chapter or anything else. Thank you both for joining us | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
this afternoon. Andrew, you get a flavour of the feeling down here at | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
Westminster. Certainly, Europe is one of those issues which again is | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
coming back and seems to be causing quite a few problems for the Prime | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
Minister. You it certainly does, thank you for that. In the past few | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
minutes, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs has made a statement | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
on the Cod Recovery Plan. Our Political Correspondent Cameron | :36:43. | :36:51. | |
Buttle joins us now. What is the background to this? | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
This all centres around the concern from the EU that Scottish waters | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
are being over-fished. This is all about how long Scottish boats can | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
spend at sea, and that has a huge impact on Scottish fishermen. We | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
are talking about an industry worth �445 million. It employs 5,000 | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
people. UK and Scottish fisheries ministers are working together on | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
this and presenting a united front. They are disputing EU figures over | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
cod catch. They say got accounts for 5% of Scotland's total catch. | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
Those EU figures could lead to cuts in time at sea which could | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
potentially have devastating consequences for the Scottish | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
fishing industry. What did the Cabinet sector have to say? He was | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
pretty bullish. They are still talking about it in the chamber. He | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
is talking tough. He says the EU approach is fatally flawed. They | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
are demanding that stocks are demanded -- decided on a case-by- | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
case basis. With regard to court, he says that since 2007, the cod | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
catch has more than half. He claims that cod catch is still low but | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
steadily recovering. Because of these EU figures, he said they are | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
facing the prospect of massive cuts in time spent at sea for Scottish | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
vessels. He claims that EU officials have made decisions | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
through illegal technicality and he says these figures don't make sense. | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
He says enough is enough - of these figures and moves up not | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
justifiable. He says he will have a strong voice and looks to have a | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
strong impact on the stocks which take place next week. Thank you for | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
that. Let's get some industry reaction | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
from Alan Coghill, President of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
and he is in Edinburgh studio. We have just had that statement in the | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
past few minutes. I take it there is a great deal of concern in the | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
industry at the moment about these talks coming up, and what might | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
happen for the industry? Yes, indeed. We have suffered a great | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
deal of pain to achieve where we are at the present time. The | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
Scottish fishing industry has taken a great deal of measures to improve | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
the situation, to cut the mortality of cod, which is the basis for the | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
Cod Recovery Plan, and we are made -- now faced with cuts which will | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
make our fleet unviable. It is not just a case of boats at sea. It is | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
about jobs at sea and on shore. It would be a major blow to Scotland | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
if this was carried through. have seen massive cuts in the fleet | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
over the past 10 years, and you say these cuts could make it unviable. | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
How many boats could be lost if these cuts to go ahead? We have | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
already seen some 300 boats taken out of the Scottish fleet over the | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
last 10 years. With the present proposals of something like 50 days | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
at sea for white fish boats, this would make all but those who are | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
able to go on to cash totally unviable. Politically, how does | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
this work? Cameron Buttle was telling us there is a united front, | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
the four home nations are making the same. To Brussels. Is there a | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
possibility that this could be overturned? Did they carry enough | :40:07. | :40:14. | |
weight to get that overturned? we can only try. It will take a | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
very determined effort, but the industry is wholly behind the | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
government in trying to make the efforts and to try and prove the | :40:21. | :40:28. | |
case. We are back in this by some of the responsible environmental | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
organisations who have been totally with us in what we have carried out | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
in a conservation credit scheme and so on. They have been part of this. | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
The fishing fleet themselves have carried out measures in | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
conservation and buying new gear and taking cameras aboard - there | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
are so many things we have done that we have not been given credit | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
for. Is there a danger of the industry being accused of crying | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
wolf? 10 years ago we thought this was the end of the industry because | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
of the massive cuts in the fleet, and now we are hearing this rather | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
bleak outlook. Do you think the industry could be accused of crying | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
wolf? Certainly, some people would see it that way. In effect, what | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
we're saying now is that we have endured all these cuts over a | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
period. We have made the best of them. We have lost a lot of boats | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
in the time, and we are now at a stage where we need to ensure that | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
we have got supplies ashore and afloat, and we have got to look | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
hard at this. We really have to look at the whole system of where | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
we are. Alan Coghill from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
thank you for joining me. I am joined once again by Professor | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
John Curtice from Strathclyde University. Let's go back to what | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
we were talking about at Westminster and the developing a | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
euro problems. It is a developing problem for David Cameron as well, | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
isn't it? There are two reasons why it is a problem for David Cameron. | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
Number one is that it is opening a fissure between the conservative | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
elements of the Government and Conservative backbenchers. Many new | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
Conservative backbenchers are pretty Euro-sceptic. One of two of | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
them would clearly like to get out of the EU. They feel that the | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
existing coalition stance, which is essentially that we will have a | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
referendum if there are proposals for Britain to give more powers to | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
Brussels, but that equally the Conservatives wish to try to | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
negotiate existing powers back from Brussels, which is part of the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
Conservative manifesto - that was effectively dropped. In a sense, | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
they are hoping that if there has to be an EU treaty because of the | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
Eurozone crisis, maybe that could be used as a lever to try and get | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
some of that, despite the fact it is not coalition policy. Secondly, | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
it is a problem for David Cameron because it causes tension between | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
the Conservative ministers in the government and the Liberal | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
Democrats. The Lib Dems, although they are nothing like as Europhile | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
as there were a few years ago, are undoubtedly most pro-European of | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
the parties. That policy stance of the coalition was essentially the | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
compromise between the two parties. In a sense, it was a compromise | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
that was predicated on the assumption that Europe would not be | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
a significant issue for this government, for the duration of its | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
five-year term. Well, that expectation has been overturned | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
because of the Eurozone crisis, and there by that old tension and | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
argument that Europe as a result has resurfaced to the Government's | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
potential political difficulty. are one of the core 1000 of the | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
Scottish Social attitudes Survey - one interesting point in that was | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
as 65% of Scots would support independence if there were �500 | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
better off. It does lead to people saying baby are -- they are being | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
bought and sold for some and bold. We gave people a set of three | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
questions. Festival, let's assume that it was accepted that the | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
standard of living in Scotland under independence will be the same | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
as at the moment - how would you vote? We then said, what would you | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
do if Scotland were to be �500 worth -- worst of it. But many 25% | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
instead of 50% voted for independence. And what if you were | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
�500 better off? And 65% said they would vote. This is a simple way of | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
highlighting a point that is very clearly there in the underlying | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
survey data, and that is that at the moment, if you think that | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
Scotland would be better off, Scott and's economy would be stronger in | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
the wake of independence, you tend to fail confident about the idea, | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
and if you feel confident about the idea then you tend to be famed for | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
-- in favour of independence. But if you think that Scotland's | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
economy would be weaker at the moment, you tend to be worried | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
about the consequences of independence, and therefore you | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
tend not to back it. It is already clearly there in the things that | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
are already shaping people's attitudes towards independence. The | :44:54. | :45:01. | |
other thing that emerges is that at the moment people are not clear if | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
they would be �500 better or worse off. We have got about a third of | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
people saying that Scotland's economy would be better and | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
independence. Fewer than that but not far short of a third say that | :45:13. | :45:21. | |
they would be weaker. With the other third in the middle. It is | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
clear that this economic argument is crucial. The debate about | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
independence is partly about identity and partly about our | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Scottishness, but it is also about whether or not we can link identity | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
to economic advantage or not. On that second issue, the debate has | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
not been won or lost by either side. Unionists think we are afraid of | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
independence but they are exaggerating the case. Equally, | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
Alex Salmond has a lot of work to do to persuade the majority of | :45:47. | :45:57. | |
:45:57. | :45:57. | ||
people in Scotland that this was of I am joined by Murdoch Frazer and | :45:57. | :46:04. | |
Robb Gibson from the SNP. Good afternoon, gentleman. Let's hear | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
your reaction to the news. The Energy Minister clearly pointing | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
out the decision why the line couldn't be put underground. He | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
made a strong case, didn't he? is a slap in the face for the the | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
community in Stirling who were united they wanted to see | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
undergrounding. You have to remember it wean just the people of | :46:24. | :46:32. | |
Stirling, it was Stirling Council including the SNP group on the | :46:32. | :46:39. | |
council, two local Scottish ministers were firm in case their | :46:39. | :46:45. | |
case for undergrounding. This decision will be viewed with dismay | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
by people in Stirling. They will feel the Scottish Government avoid | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
their views and they will wonder what is the point in having | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
consultations if their views are ignored. | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
People will be disappointed, but the fact is the cost was �263 | :47:03. | :47:11. | |
million as the Energy Minister pointed out. It was �263 million | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
million spread over a UK population of 60 million over the lifetime of | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
this line which would be decades. It would amount to pennies per year | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
on the electricity bill of every consumer in the country as against | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
the billions of pounds that we are paying as a subsidy towards | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
renewable energy energy projects across the country. From the point | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
of view of protecting the landscape and the environment and around | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
Stirling, it was a price worth paying and and that was the viewed | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
shared by all political parties representing Stirling. | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
Robb Gibson, what would you have to say? The SNP made a big play about | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
looking into this before the election election because SNP | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
candidates were getting it in the neck on the doorstep, on this side | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
of the election, you come back with this disappointing news for them? | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
The cost element is very important. It is It is important to recognise | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
for a fraction of the cost for undergrounding a lot of mitigations | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
and biodiversity projects will help the environment around Stirling, | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
but it will allow people to take part in the huge mitigation of | :48:26. | :48:36. | |
:48:36. | :48:38. | ||
climate gases which this line helps. That power is going to power the | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
central belt and further south in the future. So Stirling can play | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
its part and indeed there will be many jobs for people in Stirling as | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
a result. Do you think painting the pylons | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
green will make that much of a difference for people living in the | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
area? Well, I wonder if people have seen the pylons or whether they | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
disappear into the landscape. I believe when it is built, it will | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
not be noticed so much and I don't believe that the concerns which | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
people have are grounded in the fact that they feel it is an | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
interference, but the minister has taken every concern of the reporter | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
and the consultants to make sure that some changes have been made | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
and the Undergrounding of the line is one of of these. | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
Do you accept the SNP were disahonest about this -- disHonnest | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
about this, they could have misled people in the run-up of the | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
election? This is a vast scheme. It is part of a vital national project | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
and getting it right was what the previous Energy Minister said. That | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
consultation with local people did take place. That is honourable and | :49:43. | :49:50. | |
indeed, they have been listened to. Rob Gibson was pointing out that it | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
is a necessary energy scheme. Do you accept that and people have to | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
live unfortunately with the consequences? We've never argued | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
against the need for the power line upgrade. Our argument was that it | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
was possible to accommodate undergrounding in sensitive areas | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
at a cost which in relation to the broader landscape would have been | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
an insignificant one overall. People in Stirling will be | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
disappointed by the decision and they will feel the Scottish | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
Government says one thing in advance of an election and | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
something different once the election is out of the way. | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
Thank you very much. The Chancellor made his Autumn | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
Statement last week with those disappointing growth figures that | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
has an impact on Scotland and the finance secretary, John Swinney is | :50:36. | :50:46. | |
:50:46. | :50:53. | ||
giving his reaction in the chamber Would he accept that the United | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
Kingdom coalition Government inherited a level of debt that was | :50:56. | :51:05. | |
the largest in the G7? I know she follows my contribution | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
ins Parliament. I -- contributions in Parliament. I don't think she | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
will have noticed me shirking from apportioning responsibility to the | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
difficult inheritance that faced the Conservative-Liberal Government | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
in the summer of 2010. My point is the point about balance between | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
fiscal consolidation and promoting economic growth and if I look back | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
to my proposition that I was advancing before the Autumn | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
Statement of additional borrowing of �20 billion for example to | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
invest in capital investment which would have had an effect in | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
Scotland of about �2 billion. There was an element of opinion which was | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
saying this was a terrible amount of extra money to borrow and then | :51:50. | :51:57. | |
we fin the Chancellor is -- find the Chancellor is borrowing �158 | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
billion more than he forecast in 2010. That made me more modest in | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
the propositions I was putting forward in that context. This is | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
the point about what is the balance of preparing the public finances | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
with the incentives and the encouragement to promote economic | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
growth within our society. And the lack of a coherent economic plab | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
from the United Kingdom and the decision to cut public expenditure | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
too quickly and too deeply brought that economic recovery to a very | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
clear halt. Now, we, as a Government, have not been alone in | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
setting out our concerns. For the last 14 months, we have joined with | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
the other devolved administrations to speak out against the pace and | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
the scale of the spending cuts and to call on the Chancellor to | :52:42. | :52:50. | |
respond to the to the weakening economic economic outlook. | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
And I characterised the scale of investment that we thought was | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
important, but the UK Government's policies are not supporting growth. | :52:58. | :53:08. | |
:53:08. | :53:09. | ||
The UK economy grew by 0.5% and the OBR's forecast suggests it will | :53:09. | :53:16. | |
shrink during the following quarter. Recovery is vital in the UK to | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
Scotland's recovery. Can I ask what impact this will | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
have on the Scottish Government's Spending Review? And what impact it | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
will have on business rates revenue forecasts? That's a fair point. | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
What I would point him to is the evidence I shared with the economy | :53:38. | :53:44. | |
committee some weeks ago which was that in the year of greatest | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
economic difficulty of 2008/2009, there was still an increase in the | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
overall take of business rates because of buoyancy within the | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
business rates equation. As I've also said to Parliament, I keep | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
these factors under review, but what commitments we make in the | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
Spending Review to the provision of non-domistic rates income and it | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
will be a subject that that will be part of the Local Government | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
statement tomorrow to Parliament when we offer that figure, the | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
Government is guaranteeing that figure as part of the Spending | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
Review settlement. This Government will do all that we can within the | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
economic powers that we have to support economic recovery, enhance | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
economic security and to create employment. As a result of our | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
actions, Scotland's recession was short and shallower than for the | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
rest of the UK k and we have a a -- United Kingdom and we have a higher | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
rate of employment than the rest of the UK. The work of our enterprise | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
agencies is helping to attract new investment and major international | :54:45. | :54:53. | |
companies to Scotland, Del, Amazon, are just a few of the companies | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
that announced new investments in Scotland and we continue to embark | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
on ambitious proposals to connect with major developing markets in | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
China, there is a continued drive for global, there is a continued | :55:05. | :55:13. | |
driver of of of global growth and we are working hard to create | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
opportunities for Scottish companies. | :55:16. | :55:23. | |
Well, let's pick up on a couple of issues with Professor John Curtice. | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
The finance secretary was saying, it was the usual comments, I | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
suppose, but how did the Autumn Statement leave Scotland? The truth | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
is it leaves Scotland in the same pickle as the rest of the United | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
Kingdom. A situation of low growth and strain on the public finances. | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
I suppose if John Swinney were feeling charity charitable, he | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
might have been willing to point out in some respects, one element | :55:50. | :55:57. | |
of the Autumn Statement mirrored the SNP's strategy. The SNP has | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
actually shifted current expenditure into capital | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
expenditure on the grounds this is a way of promoting growth. Although | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
Mr Osbourne couldn't shift a great deal, he in the Autumn Statement, | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
one of the few things that was in it in terms of trying to promote | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
growth, was shifting things out of overseas expenditure towards | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
capital expenditure. Mr Osbourne has been reading Mr Swinney's | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
speeches more than Mr Swinney would care to acknowledge. | :56:30. | :56:37. | |
Do you think it was a proud edifice they have built up or was it built | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
up on a base of sand? Under the Scotland Bill that's going through | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
Westminster and assuming Holyrood accede to being passed, the | :56:45. | :56:53. | |
Scottish Government will have a degree of borrowing power. | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
It It served two function, one to give some idea there are things in | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
the short-term that the Government is helping to achieve in existing | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
financial constraints. It would have part of the broader thing that | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
this Government is trying to do which is to make people feel | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
confident about Scotland's future and it was saying, "An independent | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
Scotland, these are the kinds of ambitions we have." In general, | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
despite the economic backdrop, on the one hand the Government has got | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
to be criticising the current UK Government, it is always they are | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
going to be paining this vision that things will be better under | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
independence because that's part of the wider independence argument. | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
John, this is the Christmas card that the Chief Secretary to the | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
Treasury, Danny Alexander was giving out. He was called a ginger | :57:42. | :57:50. | |
rodent by the deputy Labour Party leader, Harriet Harman in 2010 and | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
his card is a red squirrel. It shows some people have a sense of | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
humour. Maybe Harriet will be sent a card | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
by the chief secretary! Danny Alexander one of the key | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
figures in Westminster now? He is one of these crucial roles, he is | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
responsible fort nation's public expenditure and he has been | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
involved in trying to cut public expenditure. Some people felt in | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
some respects Danny Alexander is seen as keener on this than some of | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
his Conservative colleagues. Danny Alexander is one of the four people | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
together with Francis Maude and the Deputy Prime Minister who are | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
responsible for keeping the coalition together on a day-to-day | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
basis. He is a crucial player at Westminster. | :58:39. | :58:44. |