07/12/2011 Politics Scotland


07/12/2011

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:00:17.:00:20.

programme: There's an angry reaction as the Scottish government

:00:20.:00:22.

has just confirmed none of the Beauly-Denny power line will be

:00:22.:00:26.

laid underground. As Scotland's Fisheries Minister

:00:26.:00:30.

sets out his reaction to the EU cod recovery plan, we hear from a

:00:30.:00:35.

worried industry. And here at Westminster, David

:00:35.:00:38.

Cameron says he will fight for Britain's interests at this week's

:00:38.:00:45.

crucial EU summit on the debt crisis.

:00:45.:00:48.

In the last few minutes, the Scottish government has confirmed

:00:48.:00:51.

that parts of the new Beauly to Denny power line will be laid

:00:51.:01:00.

underground. - not be laid. Objectors to the scheme had hoped

:01:00.:01:03.

unsightly pylons would be replaced by cables, which would protect the

:01:03.:01:10.

beauty of the landscape. Let's hear what the minister had to say.

:01:10.:01:16.

The upgrade is a key to the new jobs and renewables. The upgrade is

:01:16.:01:20.

essential for us to reach our renewables target, and for ensuring

:01:20.:01:24.

energy security. Consent for the line therefore had widespread

:01:24.:01:30.

support across this Parliament. My predecessor announced consent for

:01:30.:01:34.

the Beauly-Denny line in Parliament on 6th January 2010. The consent

:01:34.:01:38.

attached a number of conditions to protect the public. Also the

:01:38.:01:42.

environment and our culture heritage, and also to take into

:01:42.:01:46.

account the views of communities along the length of the line. Those

:01:46.:01:51.

conditions are being met. Existing pylons are coming down, and work is

:01:51.:01:55.

progressing apiece. When consent was granted, the importance of

:01:55.:01:59.

mitigating the him impact of the line at Stirling was recognised and

:01:59.:02:04.

the condition was imposed accordingly. In short, condition 19

:02:04.:02:07.

requires that proposals for mitigating the visual impact of the

:02:07.:02:11.

line near Stirling must be approved by Scottish ministers before the

:02:11.:02:15.

towers and a transmission line can be erected. Following a lengthy

:02:15.:02:19.

process of engagement and consultation, Scottish Power

:02:19.:02:23.

Transmission submitted proposals for that skirling visual impact

:02:23.:02:28.

mitigation scheme on 26th August of this year. I wish to inform

:02:28.:02:34.

Parliament that I am approving those proposals for the 400 KV line,

:02:34.:02:37.

but with some important and additional further proposals to

:02:37.:02:45.

this decision, I have taken into account all the relevant material

:02:45.:02:49.

considerations, and have had regard to the views presented by Stirling

:02:49.:02:52.

council representing the communities involved. I have also

:02:52.:02:57.

considered the views of my consultants, Scottish Natural

:02:57.:03:02.

Heritage, and Scottish government officials, as well as the findings

:03:02.:03:07.

of the reporter to the public inquiry in 2009. I have toured the

:03:07.:03:11.

length of the consented line covered by a condition 19 with my

:03:11.:03:16.

consultants and officials. I have considered carefully the proposals

:03:16.:03:19.

contained in the scheme. The proposals made by Scottish Power

:03:19.:03:22.

Transmission employ mitigation methods, including landscape

:03:22.:03:26.

reinforcement, the underground in of existing low-voltage overhead

:03:26.:03:32.

lines, and other compensatory measures in seven locations. These

:03:32.:03:35.

proposals offer an important level of mitigation to landscape and

:03:35.:03:42.

visual impact of the line. Let's be clear. The Beauly-Denny overhead

:03:42.:03:47.

Line upgrade is the most important infrastructure upgrade in several

:03:47.:03:51.

generations. There is a pressing need to get on with this

:03:51.:03:54.

development. The transition -- transmission network was built in

:03:54.:03:59.

the 50s and designed to transport electricity generated by large

:03:59.:04:04.

plants located close to their sources of fuel, namely the coal

:04:04.:04:07.

fields of England and the central belt of Scotland. The renewables

:04:07.:04:12.

ambitions of modern Scotland have a very different requirements. Energy

:04:12.:04:17.

generated at the periphery must now be transported to the centres of

:04:17.:04:22.

population. That clean green energy revolution is transforming Scotland,

:04:22.:04:25.

building on our distinctive competitive advantage in renewable

:04:25.:04:30.

energy. It is, presiding officer, delivering thousands of jobs and

:04:30.:04:36.

hundreds of millions of pounds of investment. Condition 19 requires

:04:36.:04:39.

that Scottish ministers consult with Stirling Castle before

:04:39.:04:43.

approving proposals and this requirement has been met. I have

:04:43.:04:47.

undertaken a formal consultation with the council, beginning on 30th

:04:47.:04:52.

August, which extended from 30 to 45 days. My officials have melt

:04:52.:04:56.

which -- met with Stirling council on several occasions, and I

:04:56.:05:01.

recently did so myself to hear their views first-hand. In making

:05:01.:05:04.

this decision I have been mindful of the views of many in sterling

:05:04.:05:09.

that theShould be underground. Underground in the upgrade in the

:05:09.:05:13.

sterling area was comprehensively examined during the public inquiry,

:05:13.:05:18.

and subsequently in the report produced for skirling council --

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Stirling council I have considered all of the recent relevant reports

:05:25.:05:30.

on underground ring of High Voltage transmission lines. Objective

:05:30.:05:34.

consideration leads me to conclude that the net reduction in impact

:05:34.:05:39.

realised from underground link the route would be relatively modest in

:05:39.:05:44.

most occasions, especially once the potential impact of the ceiling and

:05:44.:05:48.

compounds are taken into account. The evidence presented is that but

:05:48.:05:53.

in the lines underground would require a ceiling and compound at

:05:53.:05:56.

the point where the line is underground and then we services.

:05:56.:06:00.

These compounds would have a significant impact in their own

:06:00.:06:06.

right. Such compounds for a 400 KV transmission line would be of the

:06:06.:06:13.

size upwards of 30 by 80 metres - almost as big as a football pitch.

:06:13.:06:17.

This would have to be accommodated into the landscape, instead of the

:06:17.:06:24.

pylons. Estimates for the cost of but in the lines underground very

:06:24.:06:31.

from �28.7 million for a section of only 1.6 kilometres up to �263

:06:31.:06:37.

million for putting the whole route underground. I do not find it

:06:37.:06:44.

appropriate to seek approval from Ofgem for spending up to �263

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million of electricity consumers' money, especially at a time of such

:06:49.:06:53.

economic difficulty. Given the issues and the limited

:06:53.:06:56.

environmental benefits that putting the lines underground would bring,

:06:56.:07:03.

it simply cannot be justified. Underground is normally only

:07:03.:07:05.

considered as a mitigation intervention to address

:07:05.:07:08.

extraordinary circumstances where major adverse impact are predicted,

:07:08.:07:12.

and where it would be effective where other mitigation options are

:07:12.:07:16.

ruled out as ineffective. While I have listened carefully to views

:07:16.:07:23.

from all sides, I agree with the findings of the reporter, as well

:07:23.:07:27.

as our own report, and have agreed that these exceptional

:07:27.:07:31.

circumstances do not apply to sterling. The conclusion of the

:07:31.:07:35.

public inquiry and of my consultants was that the impact of

:07:35.:07:38.

the consented line at Stirling are, in the main, my neck to moderate at

:07:38.:07:44.

first. And, the prospect of programme delays is also important.

:07:44.:07:53.

A timely Beaulieu Denny upgrade his critical to the wider programme of

:07:53.:07:57.

road reinforcement required for Scotland to realise it's almost --

:07:57.:08:01.

enormous renewable potential. Best estimates suggest that put in the

:08:02.:08:07.

lines underground would lead to a delay of approximately two - three

:08:07.:08:11.

years. Clearly, therefore, there would be financial impact in terms

:08:11.:08:15.

of restraining renewables, but the wider implications that such delays

:08:15.:08:19.

would have on great improvements and renewables Investment would

:08:19.:08:23.

carry even greater economic problems. Overall, I conclude that

:08:23.:08:26.

the position of the reported to the public inquiry remains appropriate,

:08:26.:08:30.

having regard to the cost of the alternatives, the technical

:08:30.:08:34.

problems associated with it, and to the limited environmental benefits

:08:34.:08:38.

that it would offer, the case made for but in the lines underground

:08:38.:08:42.

has not been justified. If it is not appropriate to underground the

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main 400 KV line, the question remains as to how best you can

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further protect and support the communities affected. First, I have

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requested that the existing overhead 132 gave the line is

:08:58.:09:03.

underground. This will give -- carried a cost of �12.9 million for

:09:03.:09:06.

seven kilometres of steel pylons removed. This represents a much

:09:06.:09:13.

more efficient use of money than the �28.7 billion for a section of

:09:13.:09:18.

only 1.6 kilometres, or of the �263 million for a section of a 15

:09:18.:09:24.

kilometres, and it will not delay the main Beauly-Denny development.

:09:24.:09:28.

The costs are justified. The reported to the public inquiry

:09:28.:09:33.

recognised that the benefit this option bring to the wide area,

:09:33.:09:38.

providing both landscape and visual benefits by reducing the wire scape.

:09:38.:09:42.

My consultants recognise the value of this proposal, surmising that it

:09:42.:09:47.

produced direct visual benefits for South and eastern areas by

:09:47.:09:50.

offsetting the impact of the proposed line, as well as providing

:09:50.:09:55.

both landscape and visual benefits to the wider area by reducing the

:09:55.:10:01.

wire escape. I am satisfied that between the lines underground in

:10:01.:10:05.

this case is justified. But in underground an existing line is a

:10:05.:10:10.

different proposition to a 400 KV line. It will be achieved at lower

:10:10.:10:14.

costs and will not delay the project, and it will not require

:10:14.:10:18.

further sealing and compounds. It will deliver significant benefits

:10:18.:10:26.

at manageable costs. Secondly, I have asked that wider landscape

:10:26.:10:30.

enhancement is pursued, developing the Central Scotland green networks

:10:30.:10:34.

initiative in the area. My consultants have recommended a

:10:34.:10:38.

wider landscape enhancement scheme to deliver a range of benefits. The

:10:38.:10:42.

costs of this would be known until the relevant parties work together

:10:42.:10:46.

to develop the scheme. But I would ask you to consider for a moment

:10:46.:10:50.

what even a fraction of the money that some have proposed to spend on

:10:50.:10:53.

underground lines would do for specific landscape in the 80s in

:10:53.:10:58.

the area that will deliver long and lasting benefits of two communities

:10:58.:11:01.

in the sterling area. Such an enhanced scheme will also assist

:11:01.:11:04.

the Scottish government to make progress against a number of

:11:04.:11:08.

national performance indicators, namely increasing people's use of

:11:08.:11:13.

Scotland's outdoors through the provision of cycle paths, support

:11:13.:11:16.

biodiversity through the creation of woodland habitat, and reducing

:11:16.:11:23.

Scotland's carbon foot print by creating new wooden. Scottish Power

:11:23.:11:29.

Transmission must now work alongside Stirling council, the

:11:29.:11:32.

Forestry Commission and other relevant parties to develop a broad

:11:32.:11:36.

sweep of proposals for improvements to amenities in the area. Most

:11:36.:11:40.

importantly, I encourage the communities involved to actively

:11:40.:11:44.

engage with this process to facilitate the environmental

:11:44.:11:48.

improvements in their area. My opinion is that this represents an

:11:48.:11:53.

affordable option with the potential to provide substantial

:11:53.:11:57.

long-lasting landscape biodiversity and civic amenity benefits.

:11:57.:12:01.

Particular mention has been made of the increase in webscape where the

:12:02.:12:08.

consented line meets the existing twin overhead power lines. This has

:12:08.:12:16.

been highlighted by both the public inquiry and our inquiry. This area

:12:16.:12:22.

will benefit significantly from the proposals but will remain greatly

:12:22.:12:26.

affected by existing and new power lines. I have therefore asked that

:12:26.:12:31.

particular attention is given to this area. Furthermore, I also take

:12:31.:12:37.

on board expressed in packs on the area of great landscape value.

:12:37.:12:40.

Although my consultants agree that impact here are not of a

:12:40.:12:44.

significance which affect the integrity, I have also asked that

:12:44.:12:50.

particular intention is paid to improving this in this area. This

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is an important issue. I have been acutely conscious of the feelings

:12:55.:13:00.

of the communities in the area of the consented overhead line. The

:13:00.:13:03.

communities who have played an active role in this process and

:13:03.:13:07.

made a substantial contribution. My decision represents a way forward

:13:07.:13:10.

which maximises the potential benefits to the people of sterling

:13:10.:13:13.

from the costs which are incurred by the public and avoids the later

:13:13.:13:19.

this crucial development. Mike decision has been made available

:13:19.:13:23.

and I commend this decision to the parliament.

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Let's get some analysis now on that statement from our Environment

:13:25.:13:33.

Correspondent David Miller. How will campaigners who wanted to

:13:33.:13:36.

see this stretch of line being put underground react to this news, do

:13:36.:13:41.

you think? I think we can expect them to react with dismay. Speaking

:13:41.:13:44.

to some of them before the ministerial statement, they were

:13:44.:13:48.

already fearing the worst. They were talking about a failure of the

:13:48.:13:52.

democratic process. They were talking about a shoddy decision by

:13:52.:13:56.

the Scottish government. Clearly, they are very angry. They will take

:13:56.:14:02.

some time to consider their position, but it is very difficult,

:14:02.:14:06.

given the strength of the minister's statement, to see where

:14:06.:14:09.

their campaign will go from here. It is now clear that the Beauly-

:14:09.:14:13.

Denny line will be built over ground in the sterling area, and

:14:13.:14:18.

that is because -- has caused real concern for many local people.

:14:18.:14:22.

was Scottish Power approached to put in the lines underground?

:14:22.:14:28.

Primarily on the grounds of cost. The company says that in the line

:14:28.:14:31.

underground in this area, on this 12 mile stretch of the line, would

:14:31.:14:36.

be the equivalent of building a four-lane motorway underground. We

:14:36.:14:40.

had the Minister saying there will be an additional cost of �263

:14:40.:14:43.

million. The company has always argued that the environmental

:14:44.:14:50.

benefits would not justified the cost. They point out that the cost

:14:50.:14:55.

for this work, as indeed applies to any upgrade of the power great, has

:14:56.:15:00.

to be met by consumers. That is the way the industry is structured in

:15:00.:15:04.

this country, so an extra �263 million will put in the Line

:15:04.:15:07.

Underground would be paid for by you and me, and everyone else who

:15:07.:15:11.

pays an electricity bill. Beauly-Denny project has been

:15:11.:15:16.

considered very controversially and it has been difficult politically

:15:16.:15:20.

for the Scottish government as well. What you think it is so important?

:15:20.:15:24.

It is important because, of course, the Scottish government puts such

:15:24.:15:30.

massive weight on the importance of building a green energy industry in

:15:30.:15:33.

Scotland. We have heard the First Minister Alex Salmond say time and

:15:34.:15:37.

time again that Scotland is a Europe's green energy powerhouse.

:15:37.:15:42.

The problem for Scotland is that many of our green energy resources

:15:42.:15:49.

are in the north of the country. For example, tidal and wave

:15:49.:15:53.

projects tend to be centred on the north coast. Orkney is a leader

:15:53.:15:58.

there. Wind farms tend to be in relatively remote areas, and that

:15:58.:16:02.

is something we will see as we continue to develop offshore wind

:16:02.:16:06.

generation in Scotland, so the challenge is getting that power to

:16:06.:16:10.

the Central Belt where most of the consumers are, and potentially

:16:10.:16:14.

exporting it on to England and the rest of the UK. To do that, the

:16:14.:16:19.

Scottish government, the renewable energy industry, are clear that

:16:19.:16:25.

Beauly-Denny must happen quickly if we are to cash in on a fat green

:16:25.:16:35.

A leading mar debt analyst said it is preposterous to believe an

:16:35.:16:39.

independent referendum would not create uncertainty for investors.

:16:39.:16:44.

Peter Atherton was ghifg was giving evidence this morning. His

:16:44.:16:48.

appearance comes less than a month after Citigroup warned green

:16:48.:16:54.

investment could be at risk because Which companies are you aware of

:16:54.:16:59.

have indicated to yourself or to your company that they are not

:16:59.:17:03.

going to invest in Scotland as a result of the independence

:17:03.:17:08.

referendum? We didn't say that they had and we didn't urge anybody to

:17:08.:17:13.

not invest in Scotland. We said people should show caution because

:17:13.:17:21.

the independence, the chance that Scotland succeeds from the UK is an

:17:21.:17:25.

asset risk and the referendum itself creates a degree of

:17:25.:17:30.

uncertainty. We have just written a report highlighting the urn

:17:30.:17:34.

certainty created by the French Presidental election for the

:17:34.:17:38.

utility sector. We did a report ahead of the Spanish general

:17:38.:17:48.

election about the risks and and uncertainty, election create risk

:17:48.:17:55.

and uncertainty. To suggest that Scotland having a referendum

:17:55.:17:59.

referendum carries no uncertainty and no risk for particular sectors

:17:59.:18:08.

is preposterous. Your report says it threat

:18:08.:18:12.

threatens investment. You don't know what is going to happen and

:18:12.:18:18.

also it has been shot by by the investments in Scotland by large

:18:18.:18:24.

companies and by Peter Jones of the Times who says assumption devalue

:18:24.:18:27.

the Citigroup and the future, something which I agree.

:18:27.:18:33.

The idea that you can have alreferendum on -- a referendum on

:18:33.:18:37.

succession and not believe that creates uncertainty in certain

:18:37.:18:42.

sectors like utilities is preposterous. The second second

:18:42.:18:48.

point is on, you know, if you believe that the UK Government

:18:48.:18:54.

can't meet its targets without importing renewable power from

:18:54.:18:59.

Scotland, that's fine. They will no doubt be happy therefore to sign a

:18:59.:19:05.

PPA for that power or agree as we have set out in our second report

:19:05.:19:12.

to say yes, yes, yes to the three questions we set out. Ask them. You

:19:12.:19:17.

need somebody who has the money or has the consumer base to say, "We

:19:17.:19:22.

will back these assets with the level of subsidy we are backing

:19:22.:19:27.

them for the pay back period of the investment." It is simple stuff.

:19:27.:19:34.

If Scotland becomes independent so England or the rest of the UK

:19:34.:19:39.

whatever it might be called would then think, "Do we try to meet our

:19:39.:19:44.

renewable energy targets by buying green energy from Scotland or

:19:44.:19:50.

elsewhere?" Now how would the price of that energy be determined?

:19:50.:19:53.

Treasury, for example, would be concerned about having an open-

:19:53.:19:56.

ended commitment to a foreign country that they could continue to

:19:56.:20:01.

to build whatever they wanted to build and that would be subsidised

:20:01.:20:05.

by the consumers in England and Wales. In the same way that the UK

:20:05.:20:09.

doesn't provide Ireland or France or Holland with an open-ended

:20:09.:20:14.

commitment to buy whatever renewable power they produce.

:20:14.:20:23.

I am joined by Professor John Curtis. Thank you. Before we get to

:20:23.:20:28.

Citigroup. Let's talk about the power line first. Do you think the

:20:28.:20:36.

decision was expected? In the minister's view, the cost wasn't

:20:36.:20:41.

worth incurring given the costs in terms of the visual impairment.

:20:41.:20:47.

What it does illustrate, there are potential obstacles in the way of

:20:47.:20:53.

the realisation of the SNP's vision of a green energy Scotland. As the

:20:53.:20:58.

minister pointed out, he has got to get the electricity through win and

:20:58.:21:03.

wave -- win and wave power from the north of Scotland to the south of

:21:03.:21:08.

Scotland, that requires a power line. We know wind power, again

:21:08.:21:13.

potentially causes a lot of anxiety and argument because people don't

:21:13.:21:19.

necessarily like the wind turbines. The idea of renewable energy sounds

:21:19.:21:23.

great. The Government regards it as being essential to its case for an

:21:23.:21:29.

independent Scotland, but it can cause internal political

:21:29.:21:33.

difficulties and this has been one of the biggest source and

:21:33.:21:36.

disagreements about how the green revolution should be implemented.

:21:36.:21:43.

How does this play out for the SNP? Was it tricky for them before the

:21:43.:21:46.

election and now they have had to make this controversial decision?

:21:46.:21:51.

It is a decision easier to make this side of the election and I

:21:51.:21:55.

heard inside the minister's tone, there is a amount of parking going

:21:55.:22:00.

on. Scottish Power had come up with proposals for trying to ameliorate

:22:00.:22:03.

some of the environmental impact of creating the line and the minister

:22:03.:22:09.

seemed to be saying, "I'm going to insist on more." We are going to

:22:10.:22:15.

have to put more tree to say hide the power line. He is trying to

:22:15.:22:19.

minimise the extent of the opposition by saying, "You may not

:22:19.:22:24.

like this, but you will get compensation." Which might improve

:22:24.:22:29.

the landscape. He is He is trying to deal as carefully as he can.

:22:29.:22:36.

Watch out for fierce politics and a tough decision which any Government

:22:37.:22:41.

has it make while in office. Citigroup, Atherton was blunt in

:22:41.:22:46.

what he was saying, wasn't he? are back to renewables again.

:22:46.:22:49.

Essential to the Citigroup report they were discussing there, was an

:22:49.:22:53.

argument that if Scotland were to become independent, there are

:22:53.:22:57.

question marks about how you could fund the generation of that

:22:57.:23:03.

electricity merely on the basis of demand from within Scotland. The

:23:03.:23:07.

SNP's response to that, "we are going to sell the energy to

:23:07.:23:12.

England." What Mr Atherton was saying, of course, that's fine, but

:23:12.:23:16.

you cannot assume in the long run that a separate England would buy

:23:16.:23:19.

that energy. We can argue about whether or not Citigroup were wise

:23:19.:23:24.

to fall into the general argument about the referendum creating

:23:24.:23:27.

uncertainty which was almost bound to raise a political argument.

:23:27.:23:30.

That's one of the arguments the opponents of the nationalists make,

:23:30.:23:35.

but it is more spes specific arguments about if indeed a

:23:35.:23:38.

renewable Scotland is going to be an economic Powerhouse, it has got

:23:38.:23:43.

to be able to sell its energy and will people be willing to buy it?.

:23:43.:23:51.

That raises an important question about the SNP's energy strategy.

:23:51.:23:58.

We have people like like Citigroup worrying about the dangers of

:23:58.:24:02.

independence. How damaging is it for the Government, do you think?

:24:02.:24:07.

Certainly, the economic arguments about independence as I was

:24:07.:24:11.

pointing out are crucial and part of that argument now is about well,

:24:11.:24:17.

about the timing of the referendum. The parties had little enthusiasm

:24:17.:24:21.

for a referendum before May. Now one seems inevitable, they want to

:24:21.:24:24.

hold one quickly. Part of the reason they are saying that, as

:24:24.:24:29.

long as this issue is uncertain and we won't know what the outcome is,

:24:29.:24:34.

this creates uncertainty. The SNP are insistent on keeping to their

:24:34.:24:39.

timetable and insisting on making a decision about independence isn't

:24:39.:24:44.

disadvantaged. I suspect Citigroup will not be the first set of city

:24:44.:24:48.

analysts sitting in London who will say, "You need to be aware of, at

:24:48.:24:52.

least one of the potential sources of uncertainty is whether or not

:24:52.:24:57.

Scotland becomes independent." If you think this is important, I

:24:57.:25:00.

suspect you will see those arguments being made again.

:25:00.:25:09.

An angry reaction to the Scottish Government's decision not to place

:25:09.:25:15.

any of the new power line underground.

:25:15.:25:18.

Labour has asked why there was a two year delay in making this

:25:18.:25:28.

decision? Many campaigners will be angry they were given false hope.

:25:28.:25:31.

Now, Europe was the big issue during Prime Minister's Questions

:25:31.:25:35.

this afternoon. David Cameron was asked if he would attempt to define

:25:35.:25:39.

the UK's role within the European Union at the EU Summit on Friday.

:25:39.:25:42.

The Prime Minister faced questions about the future of nationalised

:25:43.:25:47.

banks and how the Government's spending cuts were affecting women.

:25:47.:25:53.

Let me remind him on the eve of the biggest postal -- post-war

:25:53.:25:58.

rebellion, he was telling his backbenchers, he was telling his

:25:58.:26:03.

backbenchers that the opportunity of treaty change would mean in the

:26:03.:26:07.

future the repatriation of powers. That was his position six weeks ago.

:26:07.:26:13.

Today he writes an article in the Times, 1,000 word article, not one

:26:13.:26:19.

mention of the phrase, "Repatriation of powers." Why does

:26:19.:26:25.

the Prime Minister think it is in the national interests to tell his

:26:25.:26:29.

backbenchers one thing and his European partners another.

:26:29.:26:35.

Yes, what we want to do particularly in the area of

:26:35.:26:39.

financial services, where this country has a massive national

:26:39.:26:45.

interest, let's remind him, it is 10% of GDP, it is 3% of our trade

:26:45.:26:50.

surplus, 7% of UK employment. I want to make sure we have more

:26:50.:26:56.

power and control in the UK to determine these things.

:26:56.:27:01.

Last year the Prime Minister's manifesto promised to repatriate

:27:01.:27:06.

legal rights, criminal justice and employment and social legislation.

:27:06.:27:10.

His article in the Times this morning is silent on these issues

:27:10.:27:13.

and the Justice Secretary said this agenda is not realistic anyway.

:27:13.:27:18.

Does the Prime Minister regret leading his party up the garden

:27:18.:27:24.

path and forcing himself into a choice between ditching his

:27:24.:27:29.

manifesto or vetoing a treaty that maybe essential to avoid huge

:27:29.:27:34.

damage to the UK economy? What I regret is the party opposite gave

:27:34.:27:38.

away so many powers. It is going to take a while to get some of them

:27:38.:27:42.

back. But We're making progress. When he was in Government, when he

:27:42.:27:45.

was in Government, there were repeated increases in the EU budget.

:27:45.:27:49.

This year, we have achieved an EU budget freeze. When he was in

:27:49.:27:52.

Government, he gave away the bail out power and we had to pour

:27:52.:27:55.

billions of pounds into other countries. We've got that power

:27:55.:27:59.

back and I believe with strong negotiations, standing up for

:27:59.:28:04.

Britain, we can help clear up the mess that Labour left us.

:28:04.:28:08.

Can I tell the Prime Minister that small and medium enterprises in my

:28:08.:28:13.

constituency are having grave difficulty accessing reasonable

:28:13.:28:17.

finance and major contributors to that is lack of competition. Will

:28:17.:28:21.

the Government considering breaking up the nationalised banks in order

:28:21.:28:25.

to be able to create more competition on the high street?

:28:25.:28:28.

I do think we have opportunities to increase the competition on the

:28:28.:28:33.

high street and as we look to return the State banks back into

:28:33.:28:35.

the private sector we will have further opportunities. We have

:28:35.:28:39.

managed to take one step forward which is to get Northern Rock back

:28:39.:28:44.

out there, lending to businesses and to households properly

:28:44.:28:45.

established in the north-east of England.

:28:45.:28:51.

The Prime Minister today has refused to accept that women and

:28:51.:28:57.

children will bear the brunt of his failed economic policy. No wonder

:28:57.:29:04.

he continues to turn off women. Will he accept the Treasury's own

:29:04.:29:08.

figures that 100,000 more children will be living in poverty as a

:29:08.:29:13.

result of his policies? What I would say to the honourable

:29:14.:29:18.

lady is how on earth does it advantage women and children to

:29:18.:29:21.

pile them up with debt after debt after debt that they then have to

:29:21.:29:27.

pay back? We have been standing here for 33 minutes, all we've

:29:27.:29:32.

heard is proposals for for tax reductions, for spending increases,

:29:32.:29:36.

for reforms they wouldn't go ahead with, for scrapping the changes to

:29:36.:29:39.

public sector pensions. They would take the women and children that we

:29:39.:29:42.

are concerned about, pile them high with debt and let them live under

:29:42.:29:46.

that burden for the rest of their days.

:29:46.:29:50.

Let's stay at Westminster. Our correspondent is standing by on

:29:50.:29:53.

College Green. Europe is a developing story at

:29:53.:29:58.

Westminster, this week, isn't it? It was interesting at Prime

:29:58.:30:03.

Minister's Questions, something like 14 of the questions in the 35

:30:03.:30:06.

minutes minutes there was at Prime Minister's Questions were to do

:30:06.:30:10.

with Europe. In the last couple of hours, the Mayor of London, Boris

:30:10.:30:14.

Johnson, has added his two pen eth to the argument. He said if there

:30:14.:30:18.

is any economic treaty then Britain must have a referendum on that.

:30:18.:30:22.

That's interesting because Boris Johnson is not always helpful to

:30:22.:30:26.

the Tory cause even though he is the conservative Mayor of London,

:30:26.:30:32.

but significant, in an interview with The Spectator magazine, the

:30:32.:30:34.

Northern Ireland Secretary, said he thinks there will be a referendum

:30:34.:30:39.

on all things European which would on the face of it at least appear

:30:39.:30:43.

to be at odds with what David Cameron is saying. Yes, Europe is a

:30:43.:30:50.

big issue and to discuss that with me I'm joined by two Scottish MPs,

:30:50.:30:54.

one from the Liberal Democrats and one for Labour.

:30:54.:30:58.

As far as Labour is concern, is this a party political issue or is

:30:58.:31:05.

the euro crisis now important that British Parliamentarians have to

:31:05.:31:14.

In a sense, it should not be a party issue. When you have got

:31:15.:31:18.

Conservative MPs obsessed with repatriating powers, when we should

:31:18.:31:22.

be sorting out the European economy. The IMF is predicting that the

:31:23.:31:25.

Eurozone could slip into recession next year. There is a jobs and

:31:25.:31:30.

growth crisis, as well as a debt crisis in Europe. We need to see

:31:30.:31:32.

strong leadership, and the Prime Minister should not be having to

:31:33.:31:36.

negotiate with his own Cabinet or his backbenchers. He should be

:31:36.:31:39.

offering that strong leadership and showing that we need a solution to

:31:39.:31:43.

this, we need a fund that will be sufficient to bail out and deal

:31:43.:31:47.

with countries which get into difficulties, but also that hard

:31:47.:31:51.

wires growth and economic expansion into this crisis. That is what is

:31:51.:31:55.

going to get us out of it. David Cameron has started a of

:31:55.:31:58.

every sentence about Europe, "the most vital and important thing is

:31:58.:32:03.

that we do get a deal to save the Euro". Precisely, but his

:32:03.:32:06.

backbenchers think the most important thing is to repatriate

:32:06.:32:11.

social policy and other powers. You can't have it both ways. You can't

:32:11.:32:14.

give them a Northern Lincolns it this is the most important issue

:32:14.:32:17.

and tried to finesse it when it comes to the economy. The European

:32:17.:32:22.

economy is the most important aspect that faces discussions in

:32:22.:32:25.

Parliament at the moment. It is the biggest trading market. We have to

:32:25.:32:29.

get it right. The Prime Minister should be offering leadership, but

:32:29.:32:32.

today it seems he is offering a surrender to some of his

:32:32.:32:37.

backbenchers. Your party is part of the coalition, the smaller party in

:32:37.:32:40.

the coalition. It is generally thought to be more Europhile than

:32:40.:32:45.

most parties at Westminster. How much a big problem is this for the

:32:45.:32:50.

coalition? I agree with what Willie has been saying. This is not about

:32:50.:32:54.

party politics. It is not about what is happening within the

:32:54.:32:58.

coalition. It is more important than that. What we do need to do is

:32:58.:33:02.

sort at the Eurozone crisis, and that means strong leadership, not

:33:02.:33:06.

only from David Cameron, George Osborne, but also, more importantly,

:33:06.:33:12.

from the European leaders. We have had a talk of big bazookas now for

:33:12.:33:18.

about two months. It really has got to the stage where we need action,

:33:18.:33:22.

tough action, and fast action to sort this crisis at. You in the

:33:22.:33:28.

House of Commons, you saw how MP after MP, Tory MP after Tory MP,

:33:28.:33:34.

stood up and said, yes, if you get a deal, we want a say on that and

:33:34.:33:39.

the UK wants a say on that. Yes, but the Lib Dems have probably been

:33:39.:33:44.

the party that has maintained its mind in the greatest possible way

:33:44.:33:48.

throughout all of this Parliament and before. We have always said

:33:48.:33:51.

that if there is a significant treaty that alters the balance of

:33:51.:33:54.

power between Europe and Britain that we should have a referendum,

:33:54.:33:58.

but that is not what has happened in the last 18 months. I don't

:33:58.:34:02.

think it is what is going to happen in the next week. But if it is,

:34:02.:34:05.

then that is the stance that we should have. Really, this is not

:34:05.:34:09.

what we need right now. A referendum on Europe it would be a

:34:09.:34:15.

massive diversion from the real struggle that we have in the

:34:15.:34:20.

economy, and it is not what we should be looking for. A question

:34:20.:34:25.

to you both. Is it perhaps a case that the general electorate is more

:34:25.:34:29.

Euro-sceptic than MPs generally? And perhaps, MPs are slightly out

:34:29.:34:33.

of step with the electorate? don't believe so. I think Europe

:34:33.:34:37.

needs to be reformed. We need to complete the single market because

:34:37.:34:40.

that will drive growth. Having a single energy market would create

:34:41.:34:45.

new opportunities for Scottish jobs, for UK jobs in the energy sector. I

:34:45.:34:49.

think we should be getting on and doing things like that, but not

:34:49.:34:53.

repatriating social policy. The priority is not about ending

:34:53.:34:56.

workers' rights or destroying the protections that have been hard

:34:56.:35:00.

fought in Europe. We need growth and jobs in Europe, and we have it

:35:00.:35:03.

by making sure that those countries which have the ability to spend a

:35:03.:35:08.

bit more, as Germany and some of the other countries do, do so to

:35:08.:35:11.

help the solidarity with the other states who are in difficulty.

:35:11.:35:15.

same question to you, are you out of step with the electorate?

:35:15.:35:20.

don't think so. When people are given a full explanation of how

:35:20.:35:25.

much of our trade is with Europe, what a separation would actually

:35:25.:35:29.

mean, that they are, by and large, supportive of being part of Europe

:35:29.:35:34.

because that is where the majority of our trade is. If it wasn't going

:35:35.:35:38.

there, if we somehow started to look for trade elsewhere, that

:35:38.:35:41.

would be a massive blow to our economy and we would see jobs lost,

:35:41.:35:45.

we would see a massive hit on the economic growth in this country. I

:35:45.:35:49.

did think that is what the UK people want to see. A brief

:35:50.:35:53.

question - do you think we will get a deal on the euro crisis this

:35:53.:35:57.

week? We need one, and the Prime Minister should be fighting for

:35:57.:36:02.

that, not fighting with his own party. I am hopeful that we will

:36:02.:36:07.

get a deal, but this has gone on for too long. I am heartened by

:36:07.:36:12.

what David Cameron said today. He is absolutely clear about the need

:36:12.:36:14.

for protecting financial services in this country, about trying to

:36:14.:36:19.

get a deal in Europe, and not focused on trying to renegotiate

:36:19.:36:22.

these social chapter or anything else. Thank you both for joining us

:36:22.:36:26.

this afternoon. Andrew, you get a flavour of the feeling down here at

:36:26.:36:30.

Westminster. Certainly, Europe is one of those issues which again is

:36:30.:36:34.

coming back and seems to be causing quite a few problems for the Prime

:36:34.:36:37.

Minister. You it certainly does, thank you for that. In the past few

:36:37.:36:40.

minutes, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs has made a statement

:36:40.:36:42.

on the Cod Recovery Plan. Our Political Correspondent Cameron

:36:43.:36:51.

Buttle joins us now. What is the background to this?

:36:52.:36:56.

This all centres around the concern from the EU that Scottish waters

:36:56.:36:59.

are being over-fished. This is all about how long Scottish boats can

:36:59.:37:03.

spend at sea, and that has a huge impact on Scottish fishermen. We

:37:03.:37:08.

are talking about an industry worth �445 million. It employs 5,000

:37:08.:37:12.

people. UK and Scottish fisheries ministers are working together on

:37:12.:37:16.

this and presenting a united front. They are disputing EU figures over

:37:16.:37:24.

cod catch. They say got accounts for 5% of Scotland's total catch.

:37:24.:37:28.

Those EU figures could lead to cuts in time at sea which could

:37:28.:37:31.

potentially have devastating consequences for the Scottish

:37:31.:37:35.

fishing industry. What did the Cabinet sector have to say? He was

:37:35.:37:41.

pretty bullish. They are still talking about it in the chamber. He

:37:41.:37:45.

is talking tough. He says the EU approach is fatally flawed. They

:37:45.:37:49.

are demanding that stocks are demanded -- decided on a case-by-

:37:49.:37:54.

case basis. With regard to court, he says that since 2007, the cod

:37:54.:37:59.

catch has more than half. He claims that cod catch is still low but

:37:59.:38:02.

steadily recovering. Because of these EU figures, he said they are

:38:02.:38:06.

facing the prospect of massive cuts in time spent at sea for Scottish

:38:06.:38:10.

vessels. He claims that EU officials have made decisions

:38:10.:38:16.

through illegal technicality and he says these figures don't make sense.

:38:16.:38:21.

He says enough is enough - of these figures and moves up not

:38:21.:38:25.

justifiable. He says he will have a strong voice and looks to have a

:38:25.:38:29.

strong impact on the stocks which take place next week. Thank you for

:38:29.:38:33.

that. Let's get some industry reaction

:38:33.:38:37.

from Alan Coghill, President of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,

:38:37.:38:41.

and he is in Edinburgh studio. We have just had that statement in the

:38:41.:38:45.

past few minutes. I take it there is a great deal of concern in the

:38:45.:38:49.

industry at the moment about these talks coming up, and what might

:38:49.:38:53.

happen for the industry? Yes, indeed. We have suffered a great

:38:53.:38:57.

deal of pain to achieve where we are at the present time. The

:38:57.:39:01.

Scottish fishing industry has taken a great deal of measures to improve

:39:01.:39:06.

the situation, to cut the mortality of cod, which is the basis for the

:39:06.:39:10.

Cod Recovery Plan, and we are made -- now faced with cuts which will

:39:10.:39:14.

make our fleet unviable. It is not just a case of boats at sea. It is

:39:14.:39:19.

about jobs at sea and on shore. It would be a major blow to Scotland

:39:19.:39:23.

if this was carried through. have seen massive cuts in the fleet

:39:23.:39:27.

over the past 10 years, and you say these cuts could make it unviable.

:39:27.:39:33.

How many boats could be lost if these cuts to go ahead? We have

:39:33.:39:38.

already seen some 300 boats taken out of the Scottish fleet over the

:39:38.:39:43.

last 10 years. With the present proposals of something like 50 days

:39:43.:39:48.

at sea for white fish boats, this would make all but those who are

:39:48.:39:53.

able to go on to cash totally unviable. Politically, how does

:39:53.:39:58.

this work? Cameron Buttle was telling us there is a united front,

:39:58.:40:04.

the four home nations are making the same. To Brussels. Is there a

:40:04.:40:07.

possibility that this could be overturned? Did they carry enough

:40:07.:40:14.

weight to get that overturned? we can only try. It will take a

:40:14.:40:17.

very determined effort, but the industry is wholly behind the

:40:17.:40:21.

government in trying to make the efforts and to try and prove the

:40:21.:40:28.

case. We are back in this by some of the responsible environmental

:40:28.:40:30.

organisations who have been totally with us in what we have carried out

:40:30.:40:35.

in a conservation credit scheme and so on. They have been part of this.

:40:35.:40:40.

The fishing fleet themselves have carried out measures in

:40:40.:40:46.

conservation and buying new gear and taking cameras aboard - there

:40:46.:40:48.

are so many things we have done that we have not been given credit

:40:49.:40:52.

for. Is there a danger of the industry being accused of crying

:40:52.:40:55.

wolf? 10 years ago we thought this was the end of the industry because

:40:55.:40:59.

of the massive cuts in the fleet, and now we are hearing this rather

:40:59.:41:02.

bleak outlook. Do you think the industry could be accused of crying

:41:02.:41:07.

wolf? Certainly, some people would see it that way. In effect, what

:41:07.:41:11.

we're saying now is that we have endured all these cuts over a

:41:11.:41:16.

period. We have made the best of them. We have lost a lot of boats

:41:16.:41:21.

in the time, and we are now at a stage where we need to ensure that

:41:21.:41:26.

we have got supplies ashore and afloat, and we have got to look

:41:26.:41:29.

hard at this. We really have to look at the whole system of where

:41:29.:41:33.

we are. Alan Coghill from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,

:41:33.:41:38.

thank you for joining me. I am joined once again by Professor

:41:38.:41:41.

John Curtice from Strathclyde University. Let's go back to what

:41:41.:41:46.

we were talking about at Westminster and the developing a

:41:46.:41:49.

euro problems. It is a developing problem for David Cameron as well,

:41:49.:41:53.

isn't it? There are two reasons why it is a problem for David Cameron.

:41:53.:41:58.

Number one is that it is opening a fissure between the conservative

:41:58.:42:03.

elements of the Government and Conservative backbenchers. Many new

:42:03.:42:06.

Conservative backbenchers are pretty Euro-sceptic. One of two of

:42:06.:42:11.

them would clearly like to get out of the EU. They feel that the

:42:11.:42:15.

existing coalition stance, which is essentially that we will have a

:42:15.:42:19.

referendum if there are proposals for Britain to give more powers to

:42:19.:42:24.

Brussels, but that equally the Conservatives wish to try to

:42:24.:42:28.

negotiate existing powers back from Brussels, which is part of the

:42:28.:42:32.

Conservative manifesto - that was effectively dropped. In a sense,

:42:32.:42:36.

they are hoping that if there has to be an EU treaty because of the

:42:36.:42:40.

Eurozone crisis, maybe that could be used as a lever to try and get

:42:40.:42:44.

some of that, despite the fact it is not coalition policy. Secondly,

:42:44.:42:48.

it is a problem for David Cameron because it causes tension between

:42:48.:42:50.

the Conservative ministers in the government and the Liberal

:42:51.:42:54.

Democrats. The Lib Dems, although they are nothing like as Europhile

:42:54.:42:58.

as there were a few years ago, are undoubtedly most pro-European of

:42:58.:43:01.

the parties. That policy stance of the coalition was essentially the

:43:01.:43:05.

compromise between the two parties. In a sense, it was a compromise

:43:05.:43:08.

that was predicated on the assumption that Europe would not be

:43:08.:43:11.

a significant issue for this government, for the duration of its

:43:11.:43:14.

five-year term. Well, that expectation has been overturned

:43:14.:43:20.

because of the Eurozone crisis, and there by that old tension and

:43:20.:43:24.

argument that Europe as a result has resurfaced to the Government's

:43:24.:43:29.

potential political difficulty. are one of the core 1000 of the

:43:29.:43:33.

Scottish Social attitudes Survey - one interesting point in that was

:43:33.:43:37.

as 65% of Scots would support independence if there were �500

:43:37.:43:43.

better off. It does lead to people saying baby are -- they are being

:43:43.:43:47.

bought and sold for some and bold. We gave people a set of three

:43:47.:43:51.

questions. Festival, let's assume that it was accepted that the

:43:51.:43:54.

standard of living in Scotland under independence will be the same

:43:54.:43:59.

as at the moment - how would you vote? We then said, what would you

:43:59.:44:07.

do if Scotland were to be �500 worth -- worst of it. But many 25%

:44:07.:44:12.

instead of 50% voted for independence. And what if you were

:44:12.:44:17.

�500 better off? And 65% said they would vote. This is a simple way of

:44:17.:44:20.

highlighting a point that is very clearly there in the underlying

:44:20.:44:24.

survey data, and that is that at the moment, if you think that

:44:24.:44:28.

Scotland would be better off, Scott and's economy would be stronger in

:44:28.:44:33.

the wake of independence, you tend to fail confident about the idea,

:44:33.:44:36.

and if you feel confident about the idea then you tend to be famed for

:44:36.:44:40.

-- in favour of independence. But if you think that Scotland's

:44:40.:44:43.

economy would be weaker at the moment, you tend to be worried

:44:43.:44:46.

about the consequences of independence, and therefore you

:44:46.:44:50.

tend not to back it. It is already clearly there in the things that

:44:51.:44:54.

are already shaping people's attitudes towards independence. The

:44:54.:45:01.

other thing that emerges is that at the moment people are not clear if

:45:01.:45:05.

they would be �500 better or worse off. We have got about a third of

:45:05.:45:09.

people saying that Scotland's economy would be better and

:45:09.:45:13.

independence. Fewer than that but not far short of a third say that

:45:13.:45:21.

they would be weaker. With the other third in the middle. It is

:45:21.:45:24.

clear that this economic argument is crucial. The debate about

:45:24.:45:28.

independence is partly about identity and partly about our

:45:28.:45:32.

Scottishness, but it is also about whether or not we can link identity

:45:32.:45:36.

to economic advantage or not. On that second issue, the debate has

:45:36.:45:41.

not been won or lost by either side. Unionists think we are afraid of

:45:41.:45:44.

independence but they are exaggerating the case. Equally,

:45:44.:45:47.

Alex Salmond has a lot of work to do to persuade the majority of

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:45:57.

people in Scotland that this was of I am joined by Murdoch Frazer and

:45:57.:46:04.

Robb Gibson from the SNP. Good afternoon, gentleman. Let's hear

:46:04.:46:09.

your reaction to the news. The Energy Minister clearly pointing

:46:09.:46:12.

out the decision why the line couldn't be put underground. He

:46:12.:46:17.

made a strong case, didn't he? is a slap in the face for the the

:46:17.:46:21.

community in Stirling who were united they wanted to see

:46:21.:46:24.

undergrounding. You have to remember it wean just the people of

:46:24.:46:32.

Stirling, it was Stirling Council including the SNP group on the

:46:32.:46:39.

council, two local Scottish ministers were firm in case their

:46:39.:46:45.

case for undergrounding. This decision will be viewed with dismay

:46:45.:46:49.

by people in Stirling. They will feel the Scottish Government avoid

:46:49.:46:53.

their views and they will wonder what is the point in having

:46:53.:46:57.

consultations if their views are ignored.

:46:57.:47:03.

People will be disappointed, but the fact is the cost was �263

:47:03.:47:11.

million as the Energy Minister pointed out. It was �263 million

:47:11.:47:16.

million spread over a UK population of 60 million over the lifetime of

:47:16.:47:21.

this line which would be decades. It would amount to pennies per year

:47:21.:47:25.

on the electricity bill of every consumer in the country as against

:47:25.:47:30.

the billions of pounds that we are paying as a subsidy towards

:47:30.:47:33.

renewable energy energy projects across the country. From the point

:47:33.:47:39.

of view of protecting the landscape and the environment and around

:47:39.:47:43.

Stirling, it was a price worth paying and and that was the viewed

:47:43.:47:48.

shared by all political parties representing Stirling.

:47:48.:47:53.

Robb Gibson, what would you have to say? The SNP made a big play about

:47:53.:47:56.

looking into this before the election election because SNP

:47:56.:48:01.

candidates were getting it in the neck on the doorstep, on this side

:48:01.:48:04.

of the election, you come back with this disappointing news for them?

:48:04.:48:09.

The cost element is very important. It is It is important to recognise

:48:09.:48:16.

for a fraction of the cost for undergrounding a lot of mitigations

:48:16.:48:20.

and biodiversity projects will help the environment around Stirling,

:48:20.:48:26.

but it will allow people to take part in the huge mitigation of

:48:26.:48:36.
:48:36.:48:38.

climate gases which this line helps. That power is going to power the

:48:38.:48:41.

central belt and further south in the future. So Stirling can play

:48:41.:48:44.

its part and indeed there will be many jobs for people in Stirling as

:48:44.:48:48.

a result. Do you think painting the pylons

:48:48.:48:51.

green will make that much of a difference for people living in the

:48:51.:48:56.

area? Well, I wonder if people have seen the pylons or whether they

:48:56.:48:59.

disappear into the landscape. I believe when it is built, it will

:48:59.:49:05.

not be noticed so much and I don't believe that the concerns which

:49:05.:49:09.

people have are grounded in the fact that they feel it is an

:49:09.:49:14.

interference, but the minister has taken every concern of the reporter

:49:14.:49:19.

and the consultants to make sure that some changes have been made

:49:19.:49:22.

and the Undergrounding of the line is one of of these.

:49:22.:49:27.

Do you accept the SNP were disahonest about this -- disHonnest

:49:27.:49:31.

about this, they could have misled people in the run-up of the

:49:31.:49:35.

election? This is a vast scheme. It is part of a vital national project

:49:35.:49:39.

and getting it right was what the previous Energy Minister said. That

:49:39.:49:42.

consultation with local people did take place. That is honourable and

:49:43.:49:50.

indeed, they have been listened to. Rob Gibson was pointing out that it

:49:50.:49:53.

is a necessary energy scheme. Do you accept that and people have to

:49:53.:49:56.

live unfortunately with the consequences? We've never argued

:49:56.:50:01.

against the need for the power line upgrade. Our argument was that it

:50:01.:50:04.

was possible to accommodate undergrounding in sensitive areas

:50:04.:50:11.

at a cost which in relation to the broader landscape would have been

:50:11.:50:14.

an insignificant one overall. People in Stirling will be

:50:14.:50:17.

disappointed by the decision and they will feel the Scottish

:50:17.:50:21.

Government says one thing in advance of an election and

:50:21.:50:25.

something different once the election is out of the way.

:50:25.:50:28.

Thank you very much. The Chancellor made his Autumn

:50:28.:50:31.

Statement last week with those disappointing growth figures that

:50:31.:50:36.

has an impact on Scotland and the finance secretary, John Swinney is

:50:36.:50:46.
:50:46.:50:53.

giving his reaction in the chamber Would he accept that the United

:50:53.:50:56.

Kingdom coalition Government inherited a level of debt that was

:50:56.:51:05.

the largest in the G7? I know she follows my contribution

:51:05.:51:09.

ins Parliament. I -- contributions in Parliament. I don't think she

:51:09.:51:14.

will have noticed me shirking from apportioning responsibility to the

:51:14.:51:21.

difficult inheritance that faced the Conservative-Liberal Government

:51:21.:51:25.

in the summer of 2010. My point is the point about balance between

:51:25.:51:29.

fiscal consolidation and promoting economic growth and if I look back

:51:29.:51:33.

to my proposition that I was advancing before the Autumn

:51:33.:51:37.

Statement of additional borrowing of �20 billion for example to

:51:37.:51:41.

invest in capital investment which would have had an effect in

:51:42.:51:47.

Scotland of about �2 billion. There was an element of opinion which was

:51:47.:51:50.

saying this was a terrible amount of extra money to borrow and then

:51:50.:51:57.

we fin the Chancellor is -- find the Chancellor is borrowing �158

:51:57.:52:03.

billion more than he forecast in 2010. That made me more modest in

:52:03.:52:07.

the propositions I was putting forward in that context. This is

:52:07.:52:10.

the point about what is the balance of preparing the public finances

:52:10.:52:14.

with the incentives and the encouragement to promote economic

:52:14.:52:19.

growth within our society. And the lack of a coherent economic plab

:52:19.:52:22.

from the United Kingdom and the decision to cut public expenditure

:52:22.:52:27.

too quickly and too deeply brought that economic recovery to a very

:52:27.:52:31.

clear halt. Now, we, as a Government, have not been alone in

:52:31.:52:35.

setting out our concerns. For the last 14 months, we have joined with

:52:35.:52:39.

the other devolved administrations to speak out against the pace and

:52:39.:52:42.

the scale of the spending cuts and to call on the Chancellor to

:52:42.:52:50.

respond to the to the weakening economic economic outlook.

:52:50.:52:54.

And I characterised the scale of investment that we thought was

:52:54.:52:58.

important, but the UK Government's policies are not supporting growth.

:52:58.:53:08.
:53:08.:53:09.

The UK economy grew by 0.5% and the OBR's forecast suggests it will

:53:09.:53:16.

shrink during the following quarter. Recovery is vital in the UK to

:53:17.:53:24.

Scotland's recovery. Can I ask what impact this will

:53:24.:53:28.

have on the Scottish Government's Spending Review? And what impact it

:53:28.:53:33.

will have on business rates revenue forecasts? That's a fair point.

:53:33.:53:38.

What I would point him to is the evidence I shared with the economy

:53:38.:53:44.

committee some weeks ago which was that in the year of greatest

:53:44.:53:49.

economic difficulty of 2008/2009, there was still an increase in the

:53:49.:53:53.

overall take of business rates because of buoyancy within the

:53:53.:53:57.

business rates equation. As I've also said to Parliament, I keep

:53:57.:54:02.

these factors under review, but what commitments we make in the

:54:02.:54:06.

Spending Review to the provision of non-domistic rates income and it

:54:06.:54:09.

will be a subject that that will be part of the Local Government

:54:09.:54:13.

statement tomorrow to Parliament when we offer that figure, the

:54:13.:54:18.

Government is guaranteeing that figure as part of the Spending

:54:18.:54:22.

Review settlement. This Government will do all that we can within the

:54:22.:54:26.

economic powers that we have to support economic recovery, enhance

:54:26.:54:30.

economic security and to create employment. As a result of our

:54:30.:54:34.

actions, Scotland's recession was short and shallower than for the

:54:34.:54:38.

rest of the UK k and we have a a -- United Kingdom and we have a higher

:54:38.:54:42.

rate of employment than the rest of the UK. The work of our enterprise

:54:42.:54:45.

agencies is helping to attract new investment and major international

:54:45.:54:53.

companies to Scotland, Del, Amazon, are just a few of the companies

:54:53.:54:57.

that announced new investments in Scotland and we continue to embark

:54:57.:55:01.

on ambitious proposals to connect with major developing markets in

:55:01.:55:05.

China, there is a continued drive for global, there is a continued

:55:05.:55:13.

driver of of of global growth and we are working hard to create

:55:13.:55:16.

opportunities for Scottish companies.

:55:16.:55:23.

Well, let's pick up on a couple of issues with Professor John Curtice.

:55:23.:55:26.

The finance secretary was saying, it was the usual comments, I

:55:26.:55:32.

suppose, but how did the Autumn Statement leave Scotland? The truth

:55:32.:55:37.

is it leaves Scotland in the same pickle as the rest of the United

:55:37.:55:41.

Kingdom. A situation of low growth and strain on the public finances.

:55:41.:55:46.

I suppose if John Swinney were feeling charity charitable, he

:55:46.:55:50.

might have been willing to point out in some respects, one element

:55:50.:55:57.

of the Autumn Statement mirrored the SNP's strategy. The SNP has

:55:57.:56:00.

actually shifted current expenditure into capital

:56:00.:56:04.

expenditure on the grounds this is a way of promoting growth. Although

:56:04.:56:07.

Mr Osbourne couldn't shift a great deal, he in the Autumn Statement,

:56:07.:56:12.

one of the few things that was in it in terms of trying to promote

:56:12.:56:18.

growth, was shifting things out of overseas expenditure towards

:56:18.:56:24.

capital expenditure. Mr Osbourne has been reading Mr Swinney's

:56:24.:56:30.

speeches more than Mr Swinney would care to acknowledge.

:56:30.:56:37.

Do you think it was a proud edifice they have built up or was it built

:56:37.:56:41.

up on a base of sand? Under the Scotland Bill that's going through

:56:41.:56:45.

Westminster and assuming Holyrood accede to being passed, the

:56:45.:56:53.

Scottish Government will have a degree of borrowing power.

:56:54.:56:57.

It It served two function, one to give some idea there are things in

:56:57.:57:02.

the short-term that the Government is helping to achieve in existing

:57:02.:57:05.

financial constraints. It would have part of the broader thing that

:57:05.:57:09.

this Government is trying to do which is to make people feel

:57:09.:57:13.

confident about Scotland's future and it was saying, "An independent

:57:13.:57:17.

Scotland, these are the kinds of ambitions we have." In general,

:57:17.:57:21.

despite the economic backdrop, on the one hand the Government has got

:57:21.:57:26.

to be criticising the current UK Government, it is always they are

:57:26.:57:29.

going to be paining this vision that things will be better under

:57:29.:57:33.

independence because that's part of the wider independence argument.

:57:33.:57:39.

John, this is the Christmas card that the Chief Secretary to the

:57:39.:57:42.

Treasury, Danny Alexander was giving out. He was called a ginger

:57:42.:57:50.

rodent by the deputy Labour Party leader, Harriet Harman in 2010 and

:57:50.:57:53.

his card is a red squirrel. It shows some people have a sense of

:57:53.:57:58.

humour. Maybe Harriet will be sent a card

:57:58.:58:04.

by the chief secretary! Danny Alexander one of the key

:58:04.:58:10.

figures in Westminster now? He is one of these crucial roles, he is

:58:10.:58:13.

responsible fort nation's public expenditure and he has been

:58:13.:58:18.

involved in trying to cut public expenditure. Some people felt in

:58:18.:58:24.

some respects Danny Alexander is seen as keener on this than some of

:58:24.:58:29.

his Conservative colleagues. Danny Alexander is one of the four people

:58:29.:58:32.

together with Francis Maude and the Deputy Prime Minister who are

:58:32.:58:35.

responsible for keeping the coalition together on a day-to-day

:58:35.:58:39.

basis. He is a crucial player at Westminster.

:58:39.:58:44.

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