15/06/2011 Politics Scotland


15/06/2011

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Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

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programme: As a row rages over Alex Salmond's comments about judges and

:00:20.:00:23.

lawyers, the Scottish Government's plans for justice are laid out in

:00:23.:00:26.

parliament. Mixed figures on the job front.

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We'll hear from the Finance Secretary.

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And Labour's Ed Miliband tries to come out fighting at Prime

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Minister's Questions after Good afternoon. The First Minister

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had launched a scathing attack on one of Scotland's most experienced

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judges, a leading defence solicitor and the Scotsman newspaper. The

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interview was in the latest edition of the Holyrood magazine and

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centred round the recent row over the Supreme Court's role in

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Scottish criminal cases. Well, to discuss this further I'm now joined

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by Eddie Barnes, the Political Editor of Scotland on Sunday, which

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comes from the same stable as the Scotsman. Good afternoon. You were

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booked to come on the programme before we knew about the comments.

:01:10.:01:18.

Can you tell me what he was saying first of all? It is fascinating. He

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starts by saying that he has set up a commission which will almost be

:01:24.:01:28.

the umpire to decide on this and many carries on making his point

:01:28.:01:32.

about his complaints about the Supreme Court. He talked about the

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extreme decisions the Supreme Court has made about potentially allowing

:01:39.:01:44.

some of the vilest people out and then he goes on to talk about Tony

:01:44.:01:48.

Kelly making a comfortable living from what Kenny MacAskill had

:01:49.:01:56.

previously called ambulance chasing. It is a stoke up row that had a

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fire taken out of it as a result of the Commission. The interview took

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place about 10 days ago but it is stoked up again for having appeared

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now. He says, why would anyone buy the

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Scotsman? Are you surprised to see this level of attack? There was

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always a tension between newspapers and magazines -- politicians. We

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are here to scrutinise politicians. The Scotsman did back Alex Salmond

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for first minister not six weeks ago but it goes with the territory

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and we make no part - my apologies for scrutinising them. Do think the

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comments I in temper it? He is often controlled in public and

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keeps his emotions in check. Were you surprised at this level?

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Absolutely. He was particularly riled that morning and Holyrood

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magazine got him at a bad time. But it is surprising and doesn't play

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well in terms of trying to find a dispassionate answer to the

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problems raised. The SNB has good points to make but those have been

:03:12.:03:17.

obscured by the fact that we have a personal battle going on. Do think

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it was a mistake for him to make those comments? It is surprising

:03:21.:03:30.

that a man who has kept his comments so closely in check that,

:03:30.:03:38.

the journalist writing the article, says that he went in fighting and

:03:38.:03:46.

he lost the plot slightly? Do thing that was correct? It jars with the

:03:46.:03:50.

the mood music We have been given since the election which has been

:03:50.:03:56.

about carrying on governing almost as a minority government did,

:03:56.:04:00.

maintaining the humility of the previous administration but these

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comments almost seen ace - Maxine a sign of indiscipline, stoking up a

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fight for the sake of it. I can't see the purpose of it. It doesn't

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help the SNP course as far as I can see. We are just about to go to the

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Chamber to hear about the plans for justice and Kenny MacAskill will be

:04:24.:04:28.

speaking about the Supreme Court row. It has dominated over the last

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few weeks, hasn't it? Absolutely. I suspect it will dominate that

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debate this afternoon as well. Other issues will arise but maybe

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those will get an airing as well. The key issue is the anti-

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sectarian legislation and concerns that it was being rushed through?

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That could be a big issue. The mood music has come from the SNP that

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they will listen to the other parties even though they do not

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need to and they can push it through. There are signs from other

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parties that they are not happy about the way this is appearing to

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be pushed through at the end of Parliament. Christine Graham made a

:05:16.:05:22.

comment on the radio that she had her own concerns. It was almost the

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very first evidence of maybe a bit of a, not quite back bench

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rebellion, but a question of the programme. Christine Graham has a

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good track record over the last few more years. Let us see how it

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develops over the next few weeks. If there are signs that people want

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more scrutiny, there are questions as to why it does need to be pushed

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through quickly. Well the SNP follow upon the rest of -- rhetoric

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of listening even though it doesn't need to. That is one thing that was

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said today, the Liberal Democrat leader, said that Alex Salmond was

:06:06.:06:10.

making bulldozer comments enabled those of Parliament. He was

:06:10.:06:15.

expressing concern that the power had gone to his head. This is going

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back to the issue about the Supreme Court. If the parties are able to

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characterise him as being some kind of bulldozer, that can't be good

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for a government. People will be sceptical of an administration that

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he's using its power in a way that is seen to be arrogant, whether it

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is on not. Thanks for that. Letters go live to the chamber away Kenny

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MacAskill is about to kick off the debate on justice priorities.

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Andrew, this is another of the debates setting out the key

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priorities. We know the first priority for are the new laws to

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tackle sectarianism which have come under fire this week by the SNP

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convenor of the justice committee, Christine Graham, amongst others,

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saying the legislation should not be rushed. Kenny MacAskill is

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hoping to have this through by July for the start of the football

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season. The other issue that may come up to date is the row

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surrounding the first minister and his comments to Holyrood magazine.

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The presiding officer has just finishing up with her point of

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order before she called Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary....

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And now I think we can move on to the debate and hand over to Mr

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MacAskill. In 2007, we set out to be a

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stronger Scotland working with the police, prosecutors and prisons who

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made significant progress across the portfolio. Crime rates fell by

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if it and are now lower than they have ever been over the last 32

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years. There are 80,000 fewer crimes recorded by the police each

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year. Violent crime is down 11%, the lowest for 25 years. Serious

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assaults are down 14%, robberies down 16% and knife crime down by a

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third. We are on a journey to replace ineffective short sentences

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with tough community sentences. Domestic violence is falling but

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remains a major concern. Parliament legislated to modernise the law on

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civil protection orders against at -- domestic abuse and to close a

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loophole in breach of the peace. We are proud of that record and that

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the strategic direction reset is paying dividends. We are proud that

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the extra 1000 police officers is making Scott and safer. But we are

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not complacent and we know that there is a considerable journey

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still to travel. Now, in the second term of an SNP government, we will

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build on that progress and advance our agenda with determination and

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vigour. We will work with our justice partners, we will do the

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right thing for the people of Scotland and strive for an

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inclusive and respectful society. Last season, it was not a football

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season to remember and that is why we are taking immediate and

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decisive action. A Bill will be introduced soon that strengthens

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the law on sectarian and other offensive behaviour at football

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matches and out flaws threatening communications. This will give the

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police and fiscal clearer and tougher powers. At the same time,

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we are working with the police and football authorities to deliver the

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commitments agreed at the Football summit held in March. Along with

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the bill, this, we believe, will bring about lasting change. Let me

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be clear, races and, bigotry and sectarianism are not welcome here -

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- races am. We must look to the future and focus on how we can make

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Scotland there country we want it to be - an inclusive society where

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all members are excepted and able to flourish. Let me turn to the

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issue of knife crime. Over the last four years, we have made progress

:10:49.:10:55.

in tackling violence, gangs and knife crime. However, even one life

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lost to knife crime is one too many and just last weekend, two more

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young lives were tragically cut short in a knife related incidents.

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I offer my sincere sympathy to those who have lost loved ones to

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this horrific crime. There are fewer people carrying knives and

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those who do, more are being caught and they are being given longer

:11:27.:11:32.

sentences than ever before. I am clear that we all need to continue

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working in a United way to tackle Scotland's played culture wherever

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and however it occurs. Initiatives such as the Community initiative to

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reduce violence and are "no knives, better lives" can pain are

:11:53.:11:57.

equipping young people towards positive alternatives to violence

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and There are many local groups who work tirelessly to rid their

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communities of knife crime. We cannot and we will not let up in

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our collective efforts to stop violence in all its forms and we

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will continue to work with the Crown, the violence reduction Unit

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and other partners to tackle this issue and we look forward to

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working together, we hope, across the chamber. In our first term, we

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made dealing with organised criminal gangs a priority. Through

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the proceeds of crime Act, we took over �40 million from organised

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criminal gangs and caused significant disruption to their

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criminal activities. By recovering these significant sums of money, we

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were able to reinvest these resources to allow over 600,000

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young people to enjoy and benefit from a wide range of sporting,

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cultural and other youth activities. We remain committed to this and I

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hope previous support from other parties remains strong. We have to

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give an alternative out it to all our young people but we can do more.

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Currently, there is an annual limit of �30 million on money raised

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through the proceeds of crime legislation. We will open

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negotiations with the UK government to remove that limit so that all

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money seized from criminals can be invested did our -- in our

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communities. Previously, we had support from members in other

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political parties and we hope that will be replicated again. We were

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also it introduced new serious crime prevention orders to restrict

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the activities of those with known criminal connections in order to

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prevent serious organised crime and protect the public, especially hard

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working Scottish men and women. We will continue to support the police

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to disrupt and dismantle organised crime across Scotland. That support

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includes the Scottish crime campus which will bring together all the

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agencies responsible for tackling serious organised crime and we are

:14:22.:14:29.

on track for occupation to start next year. On youth justice, to

:14:29.:14:34.

tackle crime over the long term, we must reduce the number of young

:14:34.:14:39.

people coming into the justice system in the first place. We are

:14:39.:14:44.

doing that. The roll-out of barely effective intervention for young

:14:44.:14:49.

people across Scotland demonstrates an effective approach to addressing

:14:49.:14:56.

the offending behaviour of young people. A fence referrals to the

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Children's reporters are reducing year on year with a 40% reduction

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over the last four years and we welcome the actions taken by many

:15:06.:15:09.

local authority partners in terms of providing that early

:15:09.:15:14.

intervention and wrap around care that stops people coming into the

:15:14.:15:21.

system. We will continue to promote targeted and robust early

:15:21.:15:26.

interventions for all under 18th across Scotland. On police and fire

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reform, we have delivered and are proud of delivering an extra 1000

:15:34.:15:44.
:15:44.:15:48.

police officers in to our Extra police to have been pivotal.

:15:48.:15:53.

We do face unprecedented Westminster cuts. We will continue

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to prove -- to improve and reform the way our public services are

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delivered and that must include the police and fire and rescue services.

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I spoke before we ended here for the collection and I indicated then

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that there was a broad consensus across the chamber, I think, apart

:16:14.:16:19.

from a small minority, that maintaining eight police forces and

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eight Fire and rescue services is unsustainable and that remains the

:16:23.:16:28.

same situation now. We will work and work for -- and look forward to

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working with colleagues to make sure we can deliver that reform and

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make sure that services are even more engaged and accountable to the

:16:38.:16:45.

diverse communities they serve. I made it clear in recent meetings

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that the case for a single force has strengthened, but there are

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legitimate concerns and worries that remained about centralisation,

:16:57.:17:02.

accountability and governance. We will seek, over the summer, to find

:17:02.:17:07.

answers to these concerns. I will return to the chamber in the autumn.

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It is not just police and fire and rescue services that will be

:17:11.:17:16.

reformed. We are determined to make our justice system more accessible,

:17:16.:17:23.

more affordable and quicker. We did feted in the last Parliament the

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recommendations made by Lord Gill and we will take forward those

:17:26.:17:33.

recommendations and seek to remove obstacles that hinder and inhibit

:17:33.:17:37.

access to justice. Justice must be available to everyone, irrespective

:17:37.:17:41.

of their wealth. We will seek to insure at the same time that legal

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aid is available to those who need it most and we will discuss with

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stakeholders how best to target resources. As with actions in the

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past Parliament, presiding officer, we again look forward to working

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with opposition parties on how we can best employment the reform.

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That is not a party political or ideologically driven matter, it is

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about rolling out work that is being carried out by one of our

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most senior judges, supported by a very many other able people and our

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look forward to continuing to work in that manner. The most important

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people, though, in the criminal justice system, are victims.

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Frequently they are forgotten. In our first term we made progress to

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rebalance the justice system in favour of victims and I again paid

:18:34.:18:44.
:18:44.:18:45.

tribute to my former colleague the last lord advocate, she had driven

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that agenda forward. We are determined to build on that. We

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will introduce a victims' rights bill to enshrine in law a victim's

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right to damages and compensation and to give victims been booked

:18:59.:19:07.

into sentencing -- input into sentencing policy. We look forward

:19:07.:19:11.

to working with colleagues across the chamber as we progress these

:19:11.:19:16.

important reforms. They are vital. As with many things, the devil is

:19:17.:19:20.

in the detail and there are complexities within it. We would

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hope that we can share matters with opposition colleagues and seek to

:19:23.:19:28.

reach a consensus and agreement because I don't believe anybody in

:19:28.:19:32.

any party within first chamber it doesn't wish to progress the rights

:19:32.:19:38.

of victims when they are dealing with parole or sentences. Other

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matters also have to be addressed. The law of damages is one. Our

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ambition for Scotland is also about the framework of rights and

:19:46.:19:52.

obligations which make up a fair and just society. Parliament

:19:52.:19:56.

unanimously passed legislation to modernise the law and civil

:19:56.:20:03.

protection orders against domestic abuse and damages of wrongful death.

:20:03.:20:08.

Bill Butler and Rhoda Grant deserve credit for that. The damages

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registration should bring benefits, emotional and financial, for the

:20:13.:20:16.

victims and families, where negligence and a breach of duty of

:20:16.:20:21.

care results in premature death. I am pleased to tell Parliament that

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eight commencement order is being made shortly to bring this Act into

:20:25.:20:30.

force on the 7th July. We will build on that momentum with input

:20:30.:20:37.

from stakeholders, not least the reform for civil law. Not -- recent

:20:38.:20:40.

decisions from court have drawn attention to the way the Scotland

:20:40.:20:44.

Act explicitly subjected the Scottish criminal courts to London

:20:44.:20:49.

oversight. This was never intended, whether in the treaty of Union or

:20:49.:20:55.

the Scotland Act. Recently, these decisions have resulted in a hugely

:20:55.:20:59.

expensive changes to a criminal justice system. These were forced

:20:59.:21:04.

in Scotland, in contrast to other jurisdictions in Europe, an

:21:04.:21:13.

opportunity to put our case before the Court of Strasbourg. Conversely,

:21:13.:21:20.

the UK's Supreme course can intervene even in Scottish cases of

:21:20.:21:27.

no significance. Unlike in England, there is no mechanism went it has

:21:27.:21:33.

been certified. It is my view that Scottish courts should make the

:21:33.:21:43.
:21:43.:21:44.

final decision. It requires careful and considered decisions. We will

:21:44.:21:47.

consider the roles of the courts and deliver options for reform.

:21:47.:21:51.

That group is at work. Presiding officer, taking Scotland Forward is

:21:51.:21:56.

about giving our young people the best chance to succeed in life. It

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is about protecting frontline services and doing what works.

:22:01.:22:05.

Making Scotland a safer and stronger place is an ambition we

:22:05.:22:09.

all share if we are up innovative, creative and to work collectively

:22:09.:22:14.

as a parliament, we can realise that ambition and help Scotland

:22:14.:22:22.

achieve its full potential. He did mention the UK Supreme Court

:22:22.:22:27.

and that issue has been exercising MPs at Westminster and is being

:22:27.:22:33.

discussed by David Porter. Next week, the Scotland Bill comes

:22:33.:22:37.

back to the fore of the House of Commons. What is known as the

:22:37.:22:40.

report and third readings. They will be read -- they will be

:22:40.:22:44.

dealing with proposed changes and eminence to the Supreme Court and

:22:44.:22:49.

also the issue of financial power of the Scottish Parliament has.

:22:49.:22:55.

Joining me are three Scottish MPs to discuss these issues. Cathy

:22:55.:23:00.

Jamieson from Labour and Malcolm from the Liberal Democrats. First

:23:00.:23:04.

of all, that spat that the First Minister seems to have got into

:23:04.:23:10.

with members of the Supreme Court, notably Lord Hope. What do you make

:23:10.:23:13.

of this? Is extraordinary and dangerous. It

:23:13.:23:17.

was childish and petulant on the first ministers part and not worthy

:23:17.:23:21.

of the minister. He compounded criticism that was already levelled

:23:21.:23:24.

at the Supreme Court by Kenny MacAskill. Where the you like

:23:24.:23:28.

judges or not, what we value enormously in this country is the

:23:28.:23:31.

independence of the judiciary and when ministers attacked them in a

:23:31.:23:35.

personal and abusive way, it brings into disrepute the separation

:23:35.:23:40.

between the political and legal institutions. I think for a newly

:23:40.:23:43.

elected SNP government with a majority, it sets a bad precedent

:23:43.:23:47.

and a dangerous turn. Is it not right that the First

:23:47.:23:51.

Minister should express his strong opinions?

:23:51.:23:55.

There is nobody saying that the First Minister should not vocalise

:23:55.:23:59.

concerns but this is an astonishing outburst from a First Minister. It

:23:59.:24:03.

is personalised and attacking a particular individual. It is going

:24:03.:24:09.

far beyond expressing concerns. What I am worried about is that

:24:09.:24:13.

actually the First Minister appears to be set on making an argument

:24:13.:24:16.

because of the geography of where the Supreme Court is located,

:24:16.:24:20.

rather than about justice for the people of Scotland. It is not good

:24:20.:24:23.

enough and not be coming of the First Minister.

:24:23.:24:27.

It is unbecoming of the First Minister to attack a serving judge?

:24:27.:24:31.

As I understand it, he is reiterating the case the Scottish

:24:31.:24:37.

government had made, which is the Supreme Court is second-guessing

:24:37.:24:42.

Scott and's High Court of Appeal, is doing something it is not meant

:24:42.:24:47.

to be. It is not an appeal court but is behaving like it. It is

:24:47.:24:50.

profoundly dangerous in terms of the independence of the Scottish

:24:50.:24:53.

judiciary. You disagree?

:24:53.:24:57.

I read the article which contains the First Minister's comment and he

:24:57.:25:01.

seems to be suggesting that the Supreme Court was interfering on a

:25:01.:25:05.

regular basis on cases of criminal appeal and I don't think there is

:25:05.:25:09.

any evidence to stack that up. The First Minister's attack seems to be

:25:09.:25:12.

that this court is based in London and he would rather people went to

:25:12.:25:17.

Strasbourg. That makes no sense to The point is that human rights law

:25:17.:25:21.

is actually a matter for the United Kingdom because we are the

:25:21.:25:28.

signatories. It is accountable to the court in Strasbourg. The appeal

:25:28.:25:31.

court is only determining human rights issues. Alex Salmond is also

:25:31.:25:34.

saying that he knows better than the Appeal Court what Strasbourg

:25:34.:25:38.

would say. If he does, maybe you should take the case to Strasbourg

:25:38.:25:41.

but he would realise that is expensive and it takes a long time.

:25:41.:25:45.

Ultimately, they will rule on the Human Rights judgement which Lord

:25:45.:25:49.

Hope believes he has the right on. Judges will disagree. Would you

:25:49.:25:53.

like the judges or not, ministers have to respect the independence of

:25:53.:25:57.

the law and the trouble with Alex Salmond and Kenny MacAskill is they

:25:57.:26:03.

are departing from that. Some people are confused that there

:26:03.:26:07.

is it I Court in London which has Scottish judges sitting on it, they

:26:07.:26:13.

are saying that they would rather take their complaint to Strasbourg.

:26:13.:26:18.

You have been able to go to Europe since 1954 if the House of Lords

:26:18.:26:23.

had already been breached. This was the final court of recourse in

:26:23.:26:27.

certain circumstances. That could happen after you had been to the

:26:27.:26:31.

High Court of Appeal in Scotland. As Martin described, we have

:26:31.:26:34.

another appeal court now. It was never designed to be an appeal

:26:34.:26:38.

court in terms of Scottish cases and I think it is wrong we have the

:26:38.:26:40.

Supreme Court behaving in the way it is.

:26:40.:26:45.

It is exactly that the House of Lords was before. People still have

:26:45.:26:48.

the right to go to Strasbourg or they can get a judgement in the UK

:26:48.:26:53.

which is cheaper and quicker. They can appeal that judgement to the

:26:53.:26:56.

Strasbourg court. It was designed to make judgments cheaper and

:26:56.:27:00.

further and I think Alex Salmond has got himself into a nationalist

:27:00.:27:03.

pressed about the location of the court which is not in the interest

:27:03.:27:07.

of the people of Scotland and if applied, will lead to more cost and

:27:07.:27:13.

delay. If the Scottish government are

:27:13.:27:17.

unhappy with what the Supreme Court decides, can they take that case to

:27:17.:27:20.

Strasbourg? That would be up to them to do that.

:27:20.:27:24.

Malcolm is right. The First Minister is using the Supreme Court

:27:24.:27:34.
:27:34.:27:36.

and the courts in Scotland as a pawn in the game. I hope that he is

:27:36.:27:40.

paying as much attention to convictions in rape cases and

:27:40.:27:43.

convictions rights, ending automatic early release and dealing

:27:43.:27:47.

with a knife crime. The First Minister, according to

:27:47.:27:49.

your colleagues, is playing politics?

:27:49.:27:55.

We have heard the politics being played. My Labour friends see

:27:55.:27:58.

constitutional wranglings around every corner. This isn't a

:27:58.:28:01.

constitutional wrangling. It is the Scottish government saying that we

:28:01.:28:05.

have a Scottish High Court of Appeal, that should be the final

:28:05.:28:10.

determining court and there is no requirement for a UK based Supreme

:28:10.:28:13.

Court to be taking our decisions. Thank you.

:28:13.:28:17.

Somehow I think we may be hearing more about this argument.

:28:17.:28:23.

Thank you. Justice is that the top of the agenda in Holyrood today. We

:28:23.:28:27.

are joined by the Garden Lobby by eight Nigel Don who sat on the

:28:27.:28:31.

justice committee and Labour's James Kelly, the new deputy

:28:31.:28:35.

convener of that committee. Good afternoon.

:28:35.:28:41.

Nigel, very intemperate comments from the First Minister. Why is he

:28:41.:28:45.

making these comments now? I don't think I am here to comment

:28:45.:28:49.

on what the First Minister is saying word for word but I think I

:28:49.:28:54.

will reiterate that there is a real difficulty here that the Supreme

:28:54.:28:58.

Court is handing down judgments which are called human rights

:28:58.:29:03.

issues but which are actually a court of appeal which was never

:29:03.:29:07.

intended to deal with substantive issues which are not human rights

:29:07.:29:11.

issues. That is really what it is all about. It is another layer

:29:11.:29:15.

which has crept in and was never intended. We could all do without

:29:15.:29:20.

I appreciate you have a problem with the Supreme Court but do you

:29:20.:29:23.

think it's necessary for the First Minister to criticise one of the

:29:23.:29:28.

most repairs did -- one of the most respected judges?

:29:28.:29:32.

I am not here to comment on what the First Minister said. He is well

:29:32.:29:36.

capable of defending that comment and I think his comments are

:29:36.:29:39.

reflective of the different positions. One of the other things

:29:39.:29:42.

he was pointing out was that these legal decisions do have real

:29:42.:29:47.

political implications, they actually make life extremely

:29:47.:29:50.

difficult for governments. Maybe some of that needs to be reflected

:29:50.:29:53.

upon. James Kelly, when you were

:29:53.:29:56.

confirmed as the deputy convener of the justice committee yesterday,

:29:56.:30:00.

you raised a point that your brother is in fact Tony Kelly, the

:30:00.:30:04.

lawyer at the centre of the First Minister's critique. What does your

:30:04.:30:09.

brother make of these comments and what do you make of them yourself?

:30:09.:30:13.

My brother can answer for himself. In terms of Alex Salmond's comments

:30:13.:30:18.

in relation to Lord Hope, I think they are ill judged. The SNP are

:30:18.:30:23.

trying to use this issue as a battering ram to push their

:30:23.:30:28.

independence agenda. What we should be doing today as we have justice

:30:28.:30:31.

at the forefront of the Scottish Parliament is to look at the issues

:30:31.:30:37.

come for turning -- concerning victims and communities across

:30:37.:30:42.

Scotland, like my crime and anti- social behaviour. I think that is

:30:42.:30:45.

what the new justice team should be concentrating on.

:30:45.:30:49.

Is there anything your brother can do about these comments?

:30:49.:30:55.

As I said in my earlier answer, my brother can speak for himself. I am

:30:55.:30:59.

saying quite clearly that in terms of Alex Salmond's comments in

:30:59.:31:05.

relation to Lord Hope, I think they were ill judged and Alex Salmond

:31:05.:31:08.

and Kenny MacAskill on this issue have made comments which have not

:31:08.:31:14.

been helpful. We have to look at the process of whether there are

:31:14.:31:17.

opportunities to improve the process, we will look at them. This

:31:17.:31:22.

has been used as a red herring in order to push the SNP's

:31:22.:31:32.
:31:32.:31:34.

Yesterday, you it express concerns about the Andes sectarianism

:31:34.:31:39.

legislation being rushed through but do not think it is laudable?

:31:39.:31:47.

There is a degree across Parliament to try to stamp out sectarianism

:31:47.:31:52.

and when letter bombs are sent to high-profile figures then we would

:31:52.:31:58.

support legislation which took on people who brought these things

:31:58.:32:05.

forward. But this issue is highly technical and full of legal

:32:05.:32:10.

complexities and it would be wrong to rush to the legislate. The same

:32:10.:32:20.
:32:20.:32:29.

It takes a good deal of care to legislate well and it takes time.

:32:29.:32:32.

There will be a balance as to whether we want to make sure we

:32:33.:32:37.

have done as much as we can sensibly and professionally and as

:32:37.:32:42.

quickly as we can bearing in mind the football season starts soon.

:32:42.:32:48.

The question is, do we do it now or do we leave it until the next

:32:49.:32:52.

session when we are well into the season. I think we should do what

:32:52.:32:57.

we can as well as we can and that we start the season with a clear

:32:57.:33:01.

set of rules. Thank you both for joining me.

:33:01.:33:05.

Later: A shaky weekend for Ed Miliband with doubts about his

:33:06.:33:12.

leadership in the Sunday papers. Whether Inverclyde by-election at

:33:12.:33:18.

to the doubts about his ability to lead -- will the Inverclyde by-

:33:18.:33:24.

election? I'm joined by our business and

:33:24.:33:29.

economy editor. Good afternoon. Can you explain that job figures out

:33:29.:33:36.

today? It is confusing. The headline figure is that the number

:33:36.:33:42.

of people, the most recent figures, the number of people seeking work

:33:42.:33:49.

during those months were down by 10,000 in Scotland. Down by 88,000

:33:49.:33:57.

across the UK. So far so simple and good news. But you also find the

:33:57.:34:04.

employment figures has fallen by 7000 which reverses a long positive

:34:04.:34:10.

trend in Scotland anyway. The workforce has contracted slightly.

:34:10.:34:14.

That is the number of people in work or available for work, and

:34:14.:34:19.

that is because they are either retiring a LEA or going into full-

:34:19.:34:29.

time education. -- retiring early. So the work force changes and that

:34:29.:34:33.

held six - might explain why the figures are conflicting. The way we

:34:33.:34:38.

measure unemployment, a number of people last month on jobseeker's

:34:38.:34:47.

allowance was up by a 1200 to just under 139,000 and it was up in the

:34:47.:34:52.

UK as well. Conflicting stories which underlines what we all know,

:34:52.:34:57.

we are bumping around on an economic recovery. It is not a

:34:57.:35:04.

clear story. Eddie Barnes, from the Scotsman, what do you make of these

:35:04.:35:10.

figures? There is a story they can tell. As Douglas explained, the

:35:10.:35:18.

employment rate is rising and that can be put down to the point that

:35:18.:35:22.

by having accelerated spending last year, particularly in helping the

:35:22.:35:26.

construction industry, figures there have risen substantially and

:35:26.:35:32.

it has helped the overall figure. That is a good message. The issue

:35:32.:35:36.

is that over the next year, can they sustain that when the public

:35:36.:35:41.

sector begins these severe cuts and that will be difficult. Douglas,

:35:41.:35:47.

one other interesting figure today. If you delve into statistics that

:35:47.:35:51.

it put out by the Office of National Statistics, the number of

:35:51.:35:55.

strikes that have been going on... There are a lot of threats about

:35:55.:36:01.

the winter of discontent because people are facing pay freezes or

:36:01.:36:06.

very small play -- pay increases while inflation is high. If you

:36:06.:36:10.

look at last month, there were only four strikes across the whole of

:36:10.:36:16.

the UK in the private sector and 10 in the public sector. Only 6000

:36:16.:36:21.

workers involved. Given what is involved in this time what is

:36:21.:36:26.

happening in the workplace, that is an astonishingly low level. Bend

:36:26.:36:31.

you for that. Letters cross to Holyrood Again one

:36:31.:36:35.

-- where I am joined by the finance secretary, John Swinney. Thank you

:36:35.:36:40.

for joining me. We speak almost every month and, to be fair, for

:36:40.:36:45.

the last seven months it has been quite a rosy picture in the

:36:45.:36:51.

employment prospects but it is a mixed picture at this afternoon.

:36:51.:36:56.

What the statistics show today it is the 7th consecutive month of

:36:56.:37:01.

falling unemployment and it shows our unemployment rate to be higher

:37:01.:37:06.

than the rest of the UK. It shows our economic activity level to be

:37:06.:37:11.

lower than the rest of the UK and that I'll -- is a welcome piece of

:37:11.:37:18.

news. A to cause of concern is the rise in the claimant count. It

:37:18.:37:25.

indicates why we have been asking the UK government to release more

:37:25.:37:28.

capital investment for us to be able to invest in the health of the

:37:29.:37:33.

Scottish economy and its recovery because the whole process of

:37:33.:37:38.

economic recovery remains a very fragile recovery and we have to

:37:38.:37:42.

build on the foundations on which we have been building over the last

:37:42.:37:47.

few months. Indeed, you have had a running commentary for the past

:37:47.:37:51.

seven months when there figures have been good but it makes it more

:37:51.:37:56.

difficult to explain when the figures are bad, doesn't it? What

:37:56.:38:00.

it shows is that There are 10,000 more people in employment today

:38:00.:38:04.

than there were 12 months ago and that his evidence we are moving in

:38:04.:38:08.

the right direction. We have had seven months of falling

:38:08.:38:13.

unemployment and that is to be welcome. Most people on jobseeker's

:38:13.:38:20.

allowance and seeking employment... There are more of them than men the

:38:20.:38:24.

figures last came at and that indicates a challenge that we have.

:38:24.:38:29.

We have to continue our focus on economic recovery by expanding the

:38:29.:38:33.

range of modern apprenticeships, by supporting the development of some

:38:33.:38:38.

of our key sectors of the Investment and the renewables

:38:38.:38:43.

industries. These are the challenges that remain and which

:38:43.:38:48.

the government is focused on addressing. Figures show an

:38:48.:38:54.

increase in private sector and -- employment, does that showed that

:38:54.:39:02.

plan a is working. The Chancellor has said then needs to be

:39:02.:39:06.

flexibility in economic policy and that is what we are looking for. We

:39:06.:39:11.

want the Chancellor to address and number of issues principally about

:39:11.:39:15.

investment in capital and infrastructure in Scotland. If you

:39:15.:39:19.

look back at the construction employment at the end of the last

:39:19.:39:23.

year, there was a 13% increase in Scotland and a decrease south of

:39:23.:39:29.

the border. Why? Because the Scottish government sustained its

:39:29.:39:36.

investment in capital projects but the UK skilled it back. We must

:39:36.:39:40.

make interventions in the economy to sustain growth. Anyone looking

:39:40.:39:44.

at these figures today unemployment will indicate that we are moving in

:39:44.:39:48.

the right direction but we have to be careful about the steps we take,

:39:48.:39:53.

which is why be make the case for further investment. Retail figures

:39:53.:39:57.

were very bad today. We have seen the worst fall since records began

:39:57.:40:03.

10 years ago. Were you disappointed? The retail sector is

:40:03.:40:07.

reflecting some of the pressure that is taking place in household

:40:07.:40:13.

income. We have a freeze in place on public-sector pay, there have

:40:13.:40:18.

been private sector pay freezes in place and we have seen increases in

:40:18.:40:22.

energy bills coming through and further increases to come. These

:40:22.:40:27.

are putting pressure on household income and that is why we maintain

:40:27.:40:32.

our position of freezing the council tax and provide a respite

:40:32.:40:36.

for householders in Scotland. It demonstrates that there is pressure

:40:36.:40:40.

on household income and that is one other issue that we have raised

:40:40.:40:45.

with the United Kingdom government, about the importance of building

:40:45.:40:50.

consumer confidence to ensure people in our country can take more

:40:50.:40:53.

confident decisions about their purchases and that can flow through

:40:53.:40:58.

into retail spending. Just to return to the top storey, were you

:40:58.:41:02.

surprised when you picked up your copy of Holyrood magazine to see

:41:02.:41:12.
:41:12.:41:13.

the first minister and his rather intemperate comments? This issue

:41:13.:41:18.

was that an intense level a few weeks ago. Since that time, we have

:41:18.:41:23.

taken the issue for wood and have set-up the expert panel to examine

:41:23.:41:28.

the issues that are involved in the unintended consequences of the role

:41:28.:41:35.

of the Supreme Court and we should let that expert panel, a renowned

:41:35.:41:40.

panel of legal experts, carry out its work and give us some

:41:40.:41:43.

reflections on a serious issue causing concern to members of the

:41:43.:41:50.

public. Thank you. Ed Miliband branded David Cameron

:41:50.:41:54.

an absolute disgrace in an ill- tempered Prime Minister's Questions

:41:54.:41:59.

clash over the impact of welfare reforms on cancer patients.

:41:59.:42:09.
:42:09.:42:11.

Following a question from an SNP MP, David Cameron repeated his against

:42:11.:42:17.

to the respect campaign. Macmillan Cancer charities have

:42:17.:42:21.

been making these comments four months. I'm amazed the Prime

:42:21.:42:25.

Minister doesn't know about these arguments. The House of Commons is

:42:25.:42:29.

fighting on this tonight. He should know about them. Hit I asked him

:42:29.:42:36.

again, will he now admit that 7000 cancer patients are using up to �94

:42:36.:42:41.

a week? I have answered his question three times with a full

:42:41.:42:44.

explanation and the whole point about our benefit reforms is that

:42:44.:42:50.

There are proper medical tests so we support those who cannot work as

:42:50.:42:55.

a general it - might generous and compassionate country should. We

:42:55.:43:02.

are also make sure that those who can work go out to work. He is the

:43:02.:43:06.

planting to put up a smokescreen because he has been found out. He

:43:06.:43:11.

has made a species week about the importance of welfare reform but he

:43:11.:43:15.

cannot take his divided party with him and that is what this is about,

:43:15.:43:23.

weak leadership of a divided party. Mr Speaker, what an absolute

:43:23.:43:27.

disgrace to describe talking about cancer patients in this country as

:43:27.:43:32.

a smokescreen. This is about people in the country, cancer charities

:43:32.:43:36.

you are concerned on their behalf and he doesn't know his own policy.

:43:36.:43:40.

This is about people recovering from cancer who are losing support

:43:40.:43:46.

as a result of his government. Mr Speaker, we know he doesn't think

:43:46.:43:50.

his policies through. Isn't this one occasion when, if ever there

:43:50.:43:56.

was a case to pause, listen and reflect, this is it. Why doesn't he

:43:56.:44:03.

do so? For what we have seen this week is the right honourable

:44:03.:44:09.

gentleman get on the wrong side of every issue. Cutting the deficit,

:44:09.:44:16.

we now have the CBI, the IMF, his brother, Tony Blair all on our side

:44:16.:44:22.

and only he is on his own. On welfare reform, everyone recognises

:44:22.:44:27.

welfare needs to be reformed apart from the right honourable gentleman.

:44:27.:44:32.

On the health service, we now have the Royal College of GPs, the Royal

:44:32.:44:36.

College of Nurses, the Royal College of Physicians, the former

:44:36.:44:41.

Health Minister and Tony Blair on the side of reform and on his end,

:44:41.:44:47.

there right honourable gentleman. A weak leader of a divided party.

:44:47.:44:51.

SNP won a landslide in the recent elections and a mandate to improve

:44:51.:44:54.

the powers of the Scottish Parliament so will the Prime

:44:54.:44:58.

Minister respect the Scottish electorate and except be six

:44:58.:45:02.

proposals for improvement in the Scotland Bill by the Scottish

:45:02.:45:06.

parliament? We listened very carefully and we respect the fact

:45:06.:45:10.

that the SNP won a mandate in Scotland and we are responding

:45:10.:45:15.

positively. The Scotland Bill before the House is a massive

:45:15.:45:22.

extension of devolution and is an extra �12 billion of spending power.

:45:22.:45:27.

We will go ahead with that and look at all the proposals that first

:45:27.:45:32.

minister Alex Salmond has had. Respect is a two-way street in

:45:32.:45:35.

which I respect the views and wishes of the Scottish people and

:45:35.:45:43.

they have to respect that they are part of a United Kingdom. The Prime

:45:43.:45:47.

Minister will know this is the first opportunity I have had to ask

:45:47.:45:52.

him a question. I stand here fresh and full of hope so I will give him

:45:52.:45:58.

one more chance to answer the question. People in my constituency

:45:58.:46:03.

and up and down the country face enormous increases in their energy

:46:03.:46:09.

bills. They need help now. When is the Prime Minister going to keep

:46:09.:46:13.

his promise made in opposition to take tough action on excessive

:46:13.:46:23.
:46:23.:46:24.

As I said, we are taking action. There is only a certain amount you

:46:24.:46:28.

can do when you see fuel prices go up by as much as they have over the

:46:28.:46:33.

yard last year. A 50 % increase in oil and gas. We do have the warm

:46:33.:46:37.

front scheme. The fact that we are making for that were there are

:46:37.:46:41.

special tariffs, companies have to offer them today uses. That makes a

:46:42.:46:46.

difference. There is the point about the Post Office card account

:46:46.:46:52.

holders that don't currently have the discounts available to them.

:46:52.:46:55.

She shakes her head but in one year, that is more than the last

:46:55.:47:00.

government did in 13. I am joined back for the final time

:47:00.:47:08.

by the political editor of the Scotsman, Eddie Barney. Do you

:47:08.:47:11.

think he has quite a mountain to climb?

:47:11.:47:16.

Yes. I thought it was a thumpingly good exchange. He definitely upped

:47:16.:47:22.

the tempo on previous weeks and it was an interesting subject he chose

:47:22.:47:25.

on cancer care and welfare for cancer patients. All very much with

:47:25.:47:30.

the aim of saying, I care more about cancer patients than the

:47:30.:47:34.

Tories do. I thought David Cameron came back very well. The key

:47:34.:47:39.

message he was giving was that line about a weak leader of a divided

:47:39.:47:46.

party and that will be rammed home over the next two or three years.

:47:46.:47:49.

Ed Miliband has to find a way of forming his own narrative that

:47:49.:47:53.

combats that. We have seen him struggle over the

:47:53.:48:00.

last week with fat. Following the Inverclyde by-election, do you

:48:00.:48:04.

think he might be able to swing that? It is looking not great for

:48:04.:48:07.

Labour. I don't think Ed Miliband will

:48:07.:48:13.

swing it. It will be about the local candidate. It is one of those

:48:13.:48:17.

by-elections that the Labour Party has everything to lose. They

:48:17.:48:22.

obviously won it by a huge majority not 12 months ago but that is by

:48:22.:48:29.

the by now. As I say, they have everything to lose.

:48:29.:48:33.

The mood music I am getting from Labour is that it will be quite

:48:33.:48:39.

quote -- it'll be quite close. If they did lose, what would that

:48:39.:48:41.

mean for Ed Miliband and his leadership?

:48:41.:48:45.

Terribly bad news. There would be no getting away from it. I suspect

:48:45.:48:49.

they would try to say it was a Scottish issue and had no relevance

:48:49.:48:53.

to the rest of the country but there is no getting away from be

:48:53.:48:57.

losing one of the safest seats they have got. That would be further bad

:48:57.:49:01.

news. And do you think that UK Labour can

:49:01.:49:05.

do that? Do you think they can say, this is a Scottish by-election,

:49:05.:49:09.

even though they have a thumping great majority at the moment?

:49:09.:49:13.

I seem to recall the Conservatives doing just that at the Glasgow

:49:13.:49:19.

North-East by-election themselves. So yes, that would be the line,

:49:19.:49:24.

should it happen. Let us wait and see.

:49:24.:49:32.

Thank you. That is all from us this week. Brian Taylor will be here

:49:32.:49:37.

tomorrow at 12 noon to bring you First Minister's Questions and we

:49:37.:49:41.

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