Browse content similar to 15/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
programme: As a row rages over Alex Salmond's comments about judges and | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
lawyers, the Scottish Government's plans for justice are laid out in | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
parliament. Mixed figures on the job front. | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
We'll hear from the Finance Secretary. | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
And Labour's Ed Miliband tries to come out fighting at Prime | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
Minister's Questions after Good afternoon. The First Minister | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
had launched a scathing attack on one of Scotland's most experienced | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
judges, a leading defence solicitor and the Scotsman newspaper. The | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
interview was in the latest edition of the Holyrood magazine and | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
centred round the recent row over the Supreme Court's role in | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
Scottish criminal cases. Well, to discuss this further I'm now joined | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
by Eddie Barnes, the Political Editor of Scotland on Sunday, which | :01:00. | :01:07. | |
comes from the same stable as the Scotsman. Good afternoon. You were | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
booked to come on the programme before we knew about the comments. | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
Can you tell me what he was saying first of all? It is fascinating. He | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
starts by saying that he has set up a commission which will almost be | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
the umpire to decide on this and many carries on making his point | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
about his complaints about the Supreme Court. He talked about the | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
extreme decisions the Supreme Court has made about potentially allowing | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
some of the vilest people out and then he goes on to talk about Tony | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
Kelly making a comfortable living from what Kenny MacAskill had | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
previously called ambulance chasing. It is a stoke up row that had a | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
fire taken out of it as a result of the Commission. The interview took | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
place about 10 days ago but it is stoked up again for having appeared | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
now. He says, why would anyone buy the | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
Scotsman? Are you surprised to see this level of attack? There was | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
always a tension between newspapers and magazines -- politicians. We | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
are here to scrutinise politicians. The Scotsman did back Alex Salmond | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
for first minister not six weeks ago but it goes with the territory | :02:32. | :02:40. | |
and we make no part - my apologies for scrutinising them. Do think the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
comments I in temper it? He is often controlled in public and | :02:43. | :02:51. | |
keeps his emotions in check. Were you surprised at this level? | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
Absolutely. He was particularly riled that morning and Holyrood | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
magazine got him at a bad time. But it is surprising and doesn't play | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
well in terms of trying to find a dispassionate answer to the | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
problems raised. The SNB has good points to make but those have been | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
obscured by the fact that we have a personal battle going on. Do think | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
it was a mistake for him to make those comments? It is surprising | :03:21. | :03:30. | |
that a man who has kept his comments so closely in check that, | :03:30. | :03:38. | |
the journalist writing the article, says that he went in fighting and | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
he lost the plot slightly? Do thing that was correct? It jars with the | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
the mood music We have been given since the election which has been | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
about carrying on governing almost as a minority government did, | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
maintaining the humility of the previous administration but these | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
comments almost seen ace - Maxine a sign of indiscipline, stoking up a | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
fight for the sake of it. I can't see the purpose of it. It doesn't | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
help the SNP course as far as I can see. We are just about to go to the | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Chamber to hear about the plans for justice and Kenny MacAskill will be | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
speaking about the Supreme Court row. It has dominated over the last | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
few weeks, hasn't it? Absolutely. I suspect it will dominate that | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
debate this afternoon as well. Other issues will arise but maybe | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
those will get an airing as well. The key issue is the anti- | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
sectarian legislation and concerns that it was being rushed through? | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
That could be a big issue. The mood music has come from the SNP that | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
they will listen to the other parties even though they do not | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
need to and they can push it through. There are signs from other | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
parties that they are not happy about the way this is appearing to | :05:08. | :05:16. | |
be pushed through at the end of Parliament. Christine Graham made a | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
comment on the radio that she had her own concerns. It was almost the | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
very first evidence of maybe a bit of a, not quite back bench | :05:28. | :05:36. | |
rebellion, but a question of the programme. Christine Graham has a | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
good track record over the last few more years. Let us see how it | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
develops over the next few weeks. If there are signs that people want | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
more scrutiny, there are questions as to why it does need to be pushed | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
through quickly. Well the SNP follow upon the rest of -- rhetoric | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
of listening even though it doesn't need to. That is one thing that was | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
said today, the Liberal Democrat leader, said that Alex Salmond was | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
making bulldozer comments enabled those of Parliament. He was | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
expressing concern that the power had gone to his head. This is going | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
back to the issue about the Supreme Court. If the parties are able to | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
characterise him as being some kind of bulldozer, that can't be good | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
for a government. People will be sceptical of an administration that | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
he's using its power in a way that is seen to be arrogant, whether it | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
is on not. Thanks for that. Letters go live to the chamber away Kenny | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
MacAskill is about to kick off the debate on justice priorities. | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
Andrew, this is another of the debates setting out the key | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
priorities. We know the first priority for are the new laws to | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
tackle sectarianism which have come under fire this week by the SNP | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
convenor of the justice committee, Christine Graham, amongst others, | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
saying the legislation should not be rushed. Kenny MacAskill is | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
hoping to have this through by July for the start of the football | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
season. The other issue that may come up to date is the row | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
surrounding the first minister and his comments to Holyrood magazine. | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
The presiding officer has just finishing up with her point of | :07:33. | :07:43. | |
order before she called Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary.... | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
And now I think we can move on to the debate and hand over to Mr | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
MacAskill. In 2007, we set out to be a | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
stronger Scotland working with the police, prosecutors and prisons who | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
made significant progress across the portfolio. Crime rates fell by | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
if it and are now lower than they have ever been over the last 32 | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
years. There are 80,000 fewer crimes recorded by the police each | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
year. Violent crime is down 11%, the lowest for 25 years. Serious | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
assaults are down 14%, robberies down 16% and knife crime down by a | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
third. We are on a journey to replace ineffective short sentences | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
with tough community sentences. Domestic violence is falling but | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
remains a major concern. Parliament legislated to modernise the law on | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
civil protection orders against at -- domestic abuse and to close a | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
loophole in breach of the peace. We are proud of that record and that | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
the strategic direction reset is paying dividends. We are proud that | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
the extra 1000 police officers is making Scott and safer. But we are | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
not complacent and we know that there is a considerable journey | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
still to travel. Now, in the second term of an SNP government, we will | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
build on that progress and advance our agenda with determination and | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
vigour. We will work with our justice partners, we will do the | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
right thing for the people of Scotland and strive for an | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
inclusive and respectful society. Last season, it was not a football | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
season to remember and that is why we are taking immediate and | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
decisive action. A Bill will be introduced soon that strengthens | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
the law on sectarian and other offensive behaviour at football | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
matches and out flaws threatening communications. This will give the | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
police and fiscal clearer and tougher powers. At the same time, | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
we are working with the police and football authorities to deliver the | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
commitments agreed at the Football summit held in March. Along with | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
the bill, this, we believe, will bring about lasting change. Let me | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
be clear, races and, bigotry and sectarianism are not welcome here - | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
- races am. We must look to the future and focus on how we can make | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
Scotland there country we want it to be - an inclusive society where | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
all members are excepted and able to flourish. Let me turn to the | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
issue of knife crime. Over the last four years, we have made progress | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
in tackling violence, gangs and knife crime. However, even one life | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
lost to knife crime is one too many and just last weekend, two more | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
young lives were tragically cut short in a knife related incidents. | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
I offer my sincere sympathy to those who have lost loved ones to | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
this horrific crime. There are fewer people carrying knives and | :11:17. | :11:26. | |
those who do, more are being caught and they are being given longer | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
sentences than ever before. I am clear that we all need to continue | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
working in a United way to tackle Scotland's played culture wherever | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
and however it occurs. Initiatives such as the Community initiative to | :11:44. | :11:53. | |
reduce violence and are "no knives, better lives" can pain are | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
equipping young people towards positive alternatives to violence | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
and There are many local groups who work tirelessly to rid their | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
communities of knife crime. We cannot and we will not let up in | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
our collective efforts to stop violence in all its forms and we | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
will continue to work with the Crown, the violence reduction Unit | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
and other partners to tackle this issue and we look forward to | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
working together, we hope, across the chamber. In our first term, we | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
made dealing with organised criminal gangs a priority. Through | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
the proceeds of crime Act, we took over �40 million from organised | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
criminal gangs and caused significant disruption to their | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
criminal activities. By recovering these significant sums of money, we | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
were able to reinvest these resources to allow over 600,000 | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
young people to enjoy and benefit from a wide range of sporting, | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
cultural and other youth activities. We remain committed to this and I | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
hope previous support from other parties remains strong. We have to | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
give an alternative out it to all our young people but we can do more. | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
Currently, there is an annual limit of �30 million on money raised | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
through the proceeds of crime legislation. We will open | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
negotiations with the UK government to remove that limit so that all | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
money seized from criminals can be invested did our -- in our | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
communities. Previously, we had support from members in other | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
political parties and we hope that will be replicated again. We were | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
also it introduced new serious crime prevention orders to restrict | :13:47. | :13:54. | |
the activities of those with known criminal connections in order to | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
prevent serious organised crime and protect the public, especially hard | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
working Scottish men and women. We will continue to support the police | :14:05. | :14:14. | |
to disrupt and dismantle organised crime across Scotland. That support | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
includes the Scottish crime campus which will bring together all the | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
agencies responsible for tackling serious organised crime and we are | :14:22. | :14:29. | |
on track for occupation to start next year. On youth justice, to | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
tackle crime over the long term, we must reduce the number of young | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
people coming into the justice system in the first place. We are | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
doing that. The roll-out of barely effective intervention for young | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
people across Scotland demonstrates an effective approach to addressing | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
the offending behaviour of young people. A fence referrals to the | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
Children's reporters are reducing year on year with a 40% reduction | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
over the last four years and we welcome the actions taken by many | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
local authority partners in terms of providing that early | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
intervention and wrap around care that stops people coming into the | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
system. We will continue to promote targeted and robust early | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
interventions for all under 18th across Scotland. On police and fire | :15:26. | :15:34. | |
reform, we have delivered and are proud of delivering an extra 1000 | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
:15:44. | :15:48. | ||
police officers in to our Extra police to have been pivotal. | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
We do face unprecedented Westminster cuts. We will continue | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
to prove -- to improve and reform the way our public services are | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
delivered and that must include the police and fire and rescue services. | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
I spoke before we ended here for the collection and I indicated then | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
that there was a broad consensus across the chamber, I think, apart | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
from a small minority, that maintaining eight police forces and | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
eight Fire and rescue services is unsustainable and that remains the | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
same situation now. We will work and work for -- and look forward to | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
working with colleagues to make sure we can deliver that reform and | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
make sure that services are even more engaged and accountable to the | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
diverse communities they serve. I made it clear in recent meetings | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
that the case for a single force has strengthened, but there are | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
legitimate concerns and worries that remained about centralisation, | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
accountability and governance. We will seek, over the summer, to find | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
answers to these concerns. I will return to the chamber in the autumn. | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
It is not just police and fire and rescue services that will be | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
reformed. We are determined to make our justice system more accessible, | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
more affordable and quicker. We did feted in the last Parliament the | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
recommendations made by Lord Gill and we will take forward those | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
recommendations and seek to remove obstacles that hinder and inhibit | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
access to justice. Justice must be available to everyone, irrespective | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
of their wealth. We will seek to insure at the same time that legal | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
aid is available to those who need it most and we will discuss with | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
stakeholders how best to target resources. As with actions in the | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
past Parliament, presiding officer, we again look forward to working | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
with opposition parties on how we can best employment the reform. | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
That is not a party political or ideologically driven matter, it is | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
about rolling out work that is being carried out by one of our | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
most senior judges, supported by a very many other able people and our | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
look forward to continuing to work in that manner. The most important | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
people, though, in the criminal justice system, are victims. | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
Frequently they are forgotten. In our first term we made progress to | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
rebalance the justice system in favour of victims and I again paid | :18:34. | :18:44. | |
:18:44. | :18:45. | ||
tribute to my former colleague the last lord advocate, she had driven | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
that agenda forward. We are determined to build on that. We | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
will introduce a victims' rights bill to enshrine in law a victim's | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
right to damages and compensation and to give victims been booked | :18:59. | :19:07. | |
into sentencing -- input into sentencing policy. We look forward | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
to working with colleagues across the chamber as we progress these | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
important reforms. They are vital. As with many things, the devil is | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
in the detail and there are complexities within it. We would | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
hope that we can share matters with opposition colleagues and seek to | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
reach a consensus and agreement because I don't believe anybody in | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
any party within first chamber it doesn't wish to progress the rights | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
of victims when they are dealing with parole or sentences. Other | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
matters also have to be addressed. The law of damages is one. Our | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
ambition for Scotland is also about the framework of rights and | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
obligations which make up a fair and just society. Parliament | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
unanimously passed legislation to modernise the law and civil | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
protection orders against domestic abuse and damages of wrongful death. | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
Bill Butler and Rhoda Grant deserve credit for that. The damages | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
registration should bring benefits, emotional and financial, for the | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
victims and families, where negligence and a breach of duty of | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
care results in premature death. I am pleased to tell Parliament that | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
eight commencement order is being made shortly to bring this Act into | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
force on the 7th July. We will build on that momentum with input | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
from stakeholders, not least the reform for civil law. Not -- recent | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
decisions from court have drawn attention to the way the Scotland | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
Act explicitly subjected the Scottish criminal courts to London | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
oversight. This was never intended, whether in the treaty of Union or | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
the Scotland Act. Recently, these decisions have resulted in a hugely | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
expensive changes to a criminal justice system. These were forced | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
in Scotland, in contrast to other jurisdictions in Europe, an | :21:04. | :21:13. | |
opportunity to put our case before the Court of Strasbourg. Conversely, | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
the UK's Supreme course can intervene even in Scottish cases of | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
no significance. Unlike in England, there is no mechanism went it has | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
been certified. It is my view that Scottish courts should make the | :21:33. | :21:43. | |
:21:43. | :21:44. | ||
final decision. It requires careful and considered decisions. We will | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
consider the roles of the courts and deliver options for reform. | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
That group is at work. Presiding officer, taking Scotland Forward is | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
about giving our young people the best chance to succeed in life. It | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
is about protecting frontline services and doing what works. | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
Making Scotland a safer and stronger place is an ambition we | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
all share if we are up innovative, creative and to work collectively | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
as a parliament, we can realise that ambition and help Scotland | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
achieve its full potential. He did mention the UK Supreme Court | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
and that issue has been exercising MPs at Westminster and is being | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
discussed by David Porter. Next week, the Scotland Bill comes | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
back to the fore of the House of Commons. What is known as the | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
report and third readings. They will be read -- they will be | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
dealing with proposed changes and eminence to the Supreme Court and | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
also the issue of financial power of the Scottish Parliament has. | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
Joining me are three Scottish MPs to discuss these issues. Cathy | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
Jamieson from Labour and Malcolm from the Liberal Democrats. First | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
of all, that spat that the First Minister seems to have got into | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
with members of the Supreme Court, notably Lord Hope. What do you make | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
of this? Is extraordinary and dangerous. It | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
was childish and petulant on the first ministers part and not worthy | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
of the minister. He compounded criticism that was already levelled | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
at the Supreme Court by Kenny MacAskill. Where the you like | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
judges or not, what we value enormously in this country is the | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
independence of the judiciary and when ministers attacked them in a | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
personal and abusive way, it brings into disrepute the separation | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
between the political and legal institutions. I think for a newly | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
elected SNP government with a majority, it sets a bad precedent | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
and a dangerous turn. Is it not right that the First | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
Minister should express his strong opinions? | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
There is nobody saying that the First Minister should not vocalise | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
concerns but this is an astonishing outburst from a First Minister. It | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
is personalised and attacking a particular individual. It is going | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
far beyond expressing concerns. What I am worried about is that | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
actually the First Minister appears to be set on making an argument | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
because of the geography of where the Supreme Court is located, | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
rather than about justice for the people of Scotland. It is not good | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
enough and not be coming of the First Minister. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
It is unbecoming of the First Minister to attack a serving judge? | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
As I understand it, he is reiterating the case the Scottish | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
government had made, which is the Supreme Court is second-guessing | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
Scott and's High Court of Appeal, is doing something it is not meant | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
to be. It is not an appeal court but is behaving like it. It is | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
profoundly dangerous in terms of the independence of the Scottish | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
judiciary. You disagree? | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
I read the article which contains the First Minister's comment and he | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
seems to be suggesting that the Supreme Court was interfering on a | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
regular basis on cases of criminal appeal and I don't think there is | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
any evidence to stack that up. The First Minister's attack seems to be | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
that this court is based in London and he would rather people went to | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
Strasbourg. That makes no sense to The point is that human rights law | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
is actually a matter for the United Kingdom because we are the | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
signatories. It is accountable to the court in Strasbourg. The appeal | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
court is only determining human rights issues. Alex Salmond is also | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
saying that he knows better than the Appeal Court what Strasbourg | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
would say. If he does, maybe you should take the case to Strasbourg | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
but he would realise that is expensive and it takes a long time. | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
Ultimately, they will rule on the Human Rights judgement which Lord | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
Hope believes he has the right on. Judges will disagree. Would you | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
like the judges or not, ministers have to respect the independence of | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
the law and the trouble with Alex Salmond and Kenny MacAskill is they | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
are departing from that. Some people are confused that there | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
is it I Court in London which has Scottish judges sitting on it, they | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
are saying that they would rather take their complaint to Strasbourg. | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
You have been able to go to Europe since 1954 if the House of Lords | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
had already been breached. This was the final court of recourse in | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
certain circumstances. That could happen after you had been to the | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
High Court of Appeal in Scotland. As Martin described, we have | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
another appeal court now. It was never designed to be an appeal | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
court in terms of Scottish cases and I think it is wrong we have the | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
Supreme Court behaving in the way it is. | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
It is exactly that the House of Lords was before. People still have | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
the right to go to Strasbourg or they can get a judgement in the UK | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
which is cheaper and quicker. They can appeal that judgement to the | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
Strasbourg court. It was designed to make judgments cheaper and | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
further and I think Alex Salmond has got himself into a nationalist | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
pressed about the location of the court which is not in the interest | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
of the people of Scotland and if applied, will lead to more cost and | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
delay. If the Scottish government are | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
unhappy with what the Supreme Court decides, can they take that case to | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
Strasbourg? That would be up to them to do that. | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
Malcolm is right. The First Minister is using the Supreme Court | :27:24. | :27:34. | |
:27:34. | :27:36. | ||
and the courts in Scotland as a pawn in the game. I hope that he is | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
paying as much attention to convictions in rape cases and | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
convictions rights, ending automatic early release and dealing | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
with a knife crime. The First Minister, according to | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
your colleagues, is playing politics? | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
We have heard the politics being played. My Labour friends see | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
constitutional wranglings around every corner. This isn't a | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
constitutional wrangling. It is the Scottish government saying that we | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
have a Scottish High Court of Appeal, that should be the final | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
determining court and there is no requirement for a UK based Supreme | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
Court to be taking our decisions. Thank you. | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
Somehow I think we may be hearing more about this argument. | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
Thank you. Justice is that the top of the agenda in Holyrood today. We | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
are joined by the Garden Lobby by eight Nigel Don who sat on the | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
justice committee and Labour's James Kelly, the new deputy | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
convener of that committee. Good afternoon. | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
Nigel, very intemperate comments from the First Minister. Why is he | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
making these comments now? I don't think I am here to comment | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
on what the First Minister is saying word for word but I think I | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
will reiterate that there is a real difficulty here that the Supreme | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
Court is handing down judgments which are called human rights | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
issues but which are actually a court of appeal which was never | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
intended to deal with substantive issues which are not human rights | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
issues. That is really what it is all about. It is another layer | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
which has crept in and was never intended. We could all do without | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
I appreciate you have a problem with the Supreme Court but do you | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
think it's necessary for the First Minister to criticise one of the | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
most repairs did -- one of the most respected judges? | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
I am not here to comment on what the First Minister said. He is well | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
capable of defending that comment and I think his comments are | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
reflective of the different positions. One of the other things | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
he was pointing out was that these legal decisions do have real | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
political implications, they actually make life extremely | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
difficult for governments. Maybe some of that needs to be reflected | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
upon. James Kelly, when you were | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
confirmed as the deputy convener of the justice committee yesterday, | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
you raised a point that your brother is in fact Tony Kelly, the | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
lawyer at the centre of the First Minister's critique. What does your | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
brother make of these comments and what do you make of them yourself? | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
My brother can answer for himself. In terms of Alex Salmond's comments | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
in relation to Lord Hope, I think they are ill judged. The SNP are | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
trying to use this issue as a battering ram to push their | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
independence agenda. What we should be doing today as we have justice | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
at the forefront of the Scottish Parliament is to look at the issues | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
come for turning -- concerning victims and communities across | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
Scotland, like my crime and anti- social behaviour. I think that is | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
what the new justice team should be concentrating on. | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
Is there anything your brother can do about these comments? | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
As I said in my earlier answer, my brother can speak for himself. I am | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
saying quite clearly that in terms of Alex Salmond's comments in | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
relation to Lord Hope, I think they were ill judged and Alex Salmond | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
and Kenny MacAskill on this issue have made comments which have not | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
been helpful. We have to look at the process of whether there are | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
opportunities to improve the process, we will look at them. This | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
has been used as a red herring in order to push the SNP's | :31:22. | :31:32. | |
:31:32. | :31:34. | ||
Yesterday, you it express concerns about the Andes sectarianism | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
legislation being rushed through but do not think it is laudable? | :31:39. | :31:47. | |
There is a degree across Parliament to try to stamp out sectarianism | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
and when letter bombs are sent to high-profile figures then we would | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
support legislation which took on people who brought these things | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
forward. But this issue is highly technical and full of legal | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
complexities and it would be wrong to rush to the legislate. The same | :32:10. | :32:20. | |
:32:20. | :32:29. | ||
It takes a good deal of care to legislate well and it takes time. | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
There will be a balance as to whether we want to make sure we | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
have done as much as we can sensibly and professionally and as | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
quickly as we can bearing in mind the football season starts soon. | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
The question is, do we do it now or do we leave it until the next | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
session when we are well into the season. I think we should do what | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
we can as well as we can and that we start the season with a clear | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
set of rules. Thank you both for joining me. | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
Later: A shaky weekend for Ed Miliband with doubts about his | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
leadership in the Sunday papers. Whether Inverclyde by-election at | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
to the doubts about his ability to lead -- will the Inverclyde by- | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
election? I'm joined by our business and | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
economy editor. Good afternoon. Can you explain that job figures out | :33:29. | :33:36. | |
today? It is confusing. The headline figure is that the number | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
of people, the most recent figures, the number of people seeking work | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
during those months were down by 10,000 in Scotland. Down by 88,000 | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
across the UK. So far so simple and good news. But you also find the | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
employment figures has fallen by 7000 which reverses a long positive | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
trend in Scotland anyway. The workforce has contracted slightly. | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
That is the number of people in work or available for work, and | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
that is because they are either retiring a LEA or going into full- | :34:19. | :34:29. | |
time education. -- retiring early. So the work force changes and that | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
held six - might explain why the figures are conflicting. The way we | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
measure unemployment, a number of people last month on jobseeker's | :34:38. | :34:47. | |
allowance was up by a 1200 to just under 139,000 and it was up in the | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
UK as well. Conflicting stories which underlines what we all know, | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
we are bumping around on an economic recovery. It is not a | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
clear story. Eddie Barnes, from the Scotsman, what do you make of these | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
figures? There is a story they can tell. As Douglas explained, the | :35:10. | :35:18. | |
employment rate is rising and that can be put down to the point that | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
by having accelerated spending last year, particularly in helping the | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
construction industry, figures there have risen substantially and | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
it has helped the overall figure. That is a good message. The issue | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
is that over the next year, can they sustain that when the public | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
sector begins these severe cuts and that will be difficult. Douglas, | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
one other interesting figure today. If you delve into statistics that | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
it put out by the Office of National Statistics, the number of | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
strikes that have been going on... There are a lot of threats about | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
the winter of discontent because people are facing pay freezes or | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
very small play -- pay increases while inflation is high. If you | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
look at last month, there were only four strikes across the whole of | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
the UK in the private sector and 10 in the public sector. Only 6000 | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
workers involved. Given what is involved in this time what is | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
happening in the workplace, that is an astonishingly low level. Bend | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
you for that. Letters cross to Holyrood Again one | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
-- where I am joined by the finance secretary, John Swinney. Thank you | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
for joining me. We speak almost every month and, to be fair, for | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
the last seven months it has been quite a rosy picture in the | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
employment prospects but it is a mixed picture at this afternoon. | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
What the statistics show today it is the 7th consecutive month of | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
falling unemployment and it shows our unemployment rate to be higher | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
than the rest of the UK. It shows our economic activity level to be | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
lower than the rest of the UK and that I'll -- is a welcome piece of | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
news. A to cause of concern is the rise in the claimant count. It | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
indicates why we have been asking the UK government to release more | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
capital investment for us to be able to invest in the health of the | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
Scottish economy and its recovery because the whole process of | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
economic recovery remains a very fragile recovery and we have to | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
build on the foundations on which we have been building over the last | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
few months. Indeed, you have had a running commentary for the past | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
seven months when there figures have been good but it makes it more | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
difficult to explain when the figures are bad, doesn't it? What | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
it shows is that There are 10,000 more people in employment today | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
than there were 12 months ago and that his evidence we are moving in | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
the right direction. We have had seven months of falling | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
unemployment and that is to be welcome. Most people on jobseeker's | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
allowance and seeking employment... There are more of them than men the | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
figures last came at and that indicates a challenge that we have. | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
We have to continue our focus on economic recovery by expanding the | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
range of modern apprenticeships, by supporting the development of some | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
of our key sectors of the Investment and the renewables | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
industries. These are the challenges that remain and which | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
the government is focused on addressing. Figures show an | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
increase in private sector and -- employment, does that showed that | :38:54. | :39:02. | |
plan a is working. The Chancellor has said then needs to be | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
flexibility in economic policy and that is what we are looking for. We | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
want the Chancellor to address and number of issues principally about | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
investment in capital and infrastructure in Scotland. If you | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
look back at the construction employment at the end of the last | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
year, there was a 13% increase in Scotland and a decrease south of | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
the border. Why? Because the Scottish government sustained its | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
investment in capital projects but the UK skilled it back. We must | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
make interventions in the economy to sustain growth. Anyone looking | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
at these figures today unemployment will indicate that we are moving in | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
the right direction but we have to be careful about the steps we take, | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
which is why be make the case for further investment. Retail figures | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
were very bad today. We have seen the worst fall since records began | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
10 years ago. Were you disappointed? The retail sector is | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
reflecting some of the pressure that is taking place in household | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
income. We have a freeze in place on public-sector pay, there have | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
been private sector pay freezes in place and we have seen increases in | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
energy bills coming through and further increases to come. These | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
are putting pressure on household income and that is why we maintain | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
our position of freezing the council tax and provide a respite | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
for householders in Scotland. It demonstrates that there is pressure | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
on household income and that is one other issue that we have raised | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
with the United Kingdom government, about the importance of building | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
consumer confidence to ensure people in our country can take more | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
confident decisions about their purchases and that can flow through | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
into retail spending. Just to return to the top storey, were you | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
surprised when you picked up your copy of Holyrood magazine to see | :41:02. | :41:12. | |
:41:12. | :41:13. | ||
the first minister and his rather intemperate comments? This issue | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
was that an intense level a few weeks ago. Since that time, we have | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
taken the issue for wood and have set-up the expert panel to examine | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
the issues that are involved in the unintended consequences of the role | :41:28. | :41:35. | |
of the Supreme Court and we should let that expert panel, a renowned | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
panel of legal experts, carry out its work and give us some | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
reflections on a serious issue causing concern to members of the | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
public. Thank you. Ed Miliband branded David Cameron | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
an absolute disgrace in an ill- tempered Prime Minister's Questions | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
clash over the impact of welfare reforms on cancer patients. | :41:59. | :42:09. | |
:42:09. | :42:11. | ||
Following a question from an SNP MP, David Cameron repeated his against | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
to the respect campaign. Macmillan Cancer charities have | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
been making these comments four months. I'm amazed the Prime | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
Minister doesn't know about these arguments. The House of Commons is | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
fighting on this tonight. He should know about them. Hit I asked him | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
again, will he now admit that 7000 cancer patients are using up to �94 | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
a week? I have answered his question three times with a full | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
explanation and the whole point about our benefit reforms is that | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
There are proper medical tests so we support those who cannot work as | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
a general it - might generous and compassionate country should. We | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
are also make sure that those who can work go out to work. He is the | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
planting to put up a smokescreen because he has been found out. He | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
has made a species week about the importance of welfare reform but he | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
cannot take his divided party with him and that is what this is about, | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
weak leadership of a divided party. Mr Speaker, what an absolute | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
disgrace to describe talking about cancer patients in this country as | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
a smokescreen. This is about people in the country, cancer charities | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
you are concerned on their behalf and he doesn't know his own policy. | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
This is about people recovering from cancer who are losing support | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
as a result of his government. Mr Speaker, we know he doesn't think | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
his policies through. Isn't this one occasion when, if ever there | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
was a case to pause, listen and reflect, this is it. Why doesn't he | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
do so? For what we have seen this week is the right honourable | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
gentleman get on the wrong side of every issue. Cutting the deficit, | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
we now have the CBI, the IMF, his brother, Tony Blair all on our side | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
and only he is on his own. On welfare reform, everyone recognises | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
welfare needs to be reformed apart from the right honourable gentleman. | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
On the health service, we now have the Royal College of GPs, the Royal | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
College of Nurses, the Royal College of Physicians, the former | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
Health Minister and Tony Blair on the side of reform and on his end, | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
there right honourable gentleman. A weak leader of a divided party. | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
SNP won a landslide in the recent elections and a mandate to improve | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
the powers of the Scottish Parliament so will the Prime | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
Minister respect the Scottish electorate and except be six | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
proposals for improvement in the Scotland Bill by the Scottish | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
parliament? We listened very carefully and we respect the fact | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
that the SNP won a mandate in Scotland and we are responding | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
positively. The Scotland Bill before the House is a massive | :45:15. | :45:22. | |
extension of devolution and is an extra �12 billion of spending power. | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
We will go ahead with that and look at all the proposals that first | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
minister Alex Salmond has had. Respect is a two-way street in | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
which I respect the views and wishes of the Scottish people and | :45:35. | :45:43. | |
they have to respect that they are part of a United Kingdom. The Prime | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
Minister will know this is the first opportunity I have had to ask | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
him a question. I stand here fresh and full of hope so I will give him | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
one more chance to answer the question. People in my constituency | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
and up and down the country face enormous increases in their energy | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
bills. They need help now. When is the Prime Minister going to keep | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
his promise made in opposition to take tough action on excessive | :46:13. | :46:23. | |
:46:23. | :46:24. | ||
As I said, we are taking action. There is only a certain amount you | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
can do when you see fuel prices go up by as much as they have over the | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
yard last year. A 50 % increase in oil and gas. We do have the warm | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
front scheme. The fact that we are making for that were there are | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
special tariffs, companies have to offer them today uses. That makes a | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
difference. There is the point about the Post Office card account | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
holders that don't currently have the discounts available to them. | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
She shakes her head but in one year, that is more than the last | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
government did in 13. I am joined back for the final time | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
by the political editor of the Scotsman, Eddie Barney. Do you | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
think he has quite a mountain to climb? | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
Yes. I thought it was a thumpingly good exchange. He definitely upped | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
the tempo on previous weeks and it was an interesting subject he chose | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
on cancer care and welfare for cancer patients. All very much with | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
the aim of saying, I care more about cancer patients than the | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
Tories do. I thought David Cameron came back very well. The key | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
message he was giving was that line about a weak leader of a divided | :47:39. | :47:46. | |
party and that will be rammed home over the next two or three years. | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
Ed Miliband has to find a way of forming his own narrative that | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
combats that. We have seen him struggle over the | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
last week with fat. Following the Inverclyde by-election, do you | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
think he might be able to swing that? It is looking not great for | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
Labour. I don't think Ed Miliband will | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
swing it. It will be about the local candidate. It is one of those | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
by-elections that the Labour Party has everything to lose. They | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
obviously won it by a huge majority not 12 months ago but that is by | :48:22. | :48:29. | |
the by now. As I say, they have everything to lose. | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
The mood music I am getting from Labour is that it will be quite | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
quote -- it'll be quite close. If they did lose, what would that | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
mean for Ed Miliband and his leadership? | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
Terribly bad news. There would be no getting away from it. I suspect | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
they would try to say it was a Scottish issue and had no relevance | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
to the rest of the country but there is no getting away from be | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
losing one of the safest seats they have got. That would be further bad | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
news. And do you think that UK Labour can | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
do that? Do you think they can say, this is a Scottish by-election, | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
even though they have a thumping great majority at the moment? | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
I seem to recall the Conservatives doing just that at the Glasgow | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
North-East by-election themselves. So yes, that would be the line, | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
should it happen. Let us wait and see. | :49:24. | :49:32. | |
Thank you. That is all from us this week. Brian Taylor will be here | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
tomorrow at 12 noon to bring you First Minister's Questions and we | :49:37. | :49:41. |