17/04/2013 Politics Scotland

Lady Thatcher, the Iron Lady leaves Parliament for the last time.

Also coming up: Good news on the jobs front.

Scottish unemployment falls below 200,000 for the first time in three

years. The half muffled bells of St Paul's

Cathedral rang out this morning as the Kelvin of Lady Thatcher

completed its -- the coffin of Lady Thatcher completed its procession

for a ceremonial funeral in the presence of the Queen and Prime

Minister. Politicians joined the mourning Thatcher family for the

service. Joining me is our Westminster correspondent. Is life

at Westminster returning to normal? Here at Westminster, things are

getting back to normal this afternoon. The traffic is flowing,

the barriers are down. It has really been a chance for the political

establishment to pay tribute to Margaret Thatcher. Yesterday, her

coffin was brought here to the Palace of Westminster. It stayed

here overnight and it was from the Palace that the coffin left, owing

along Whitehall, passing Downing Street. It passed the Scotland

Office where the saltire was flowing at half mast. Her decisions on

Scotland, for example people tax, where some of the most

controversial. St Paul's Cathedral, those who had served with her in her

Cabinet and those who had opposed her, gathered for the funeral

service. It was not overtly political but, even so, on an

occasion like this, politics, to some extent, would have to pay their

mark. Here is the flavour of the remember, before God, Margaret Hilda

CONGREGATION SINGS Have I discovered Joy or am I still

looking for it in externals outside myself? Margaret Thatcher had a

sense of this which she expressed in her address to the General Assembly

of the Church of Scotland when she said, "I leave you with the earnest

hope that may we all come near to that other country whose ways are

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 64 seconds

ways of gentleness and all her parts crematoria service for Baroness

Thatcher, where they can see their private goodbyes to her. It is fair

to say that, in death as in life, she was one of those figures who

divided opinions one way or another. Her legacy will be debated at home,

and abroad, and particularly Scotland, for many years to come.

Interesting to see the ship of London talking. It is extraordinary.

More than 25 years ago that she made that speech in Edinburgh. Yet, still

people are raising questions about it. It was not overtly political.

The Bishop of London felt that he had to mention something about

that. Those who hold. The policies that she stood for of what an

inspirational, to some, to others a figure that they revile. Love her or

hate her, she was in very important figure.

There has been a surprise boost to Scottish economic, covering the end

of last year. There has been an improvement in the Scottish job

figures with a big rise in implement. Fewer than 200,000 are

looking for work. -- fewer than 200,000 are looking for the first

time in four years. Douglas, talk to the latest figures who have. Writing

a lot of data. The big surprise was around gross domestic product which,

in this case we expected Scotland was going to be in somewhere like

the same position, maybe not quite as bad, but in fact there was growth

of 0.5%. It might be explained by a bit of an unwinding about what

happened in an earlier part of the year. Over the wall of last year, we

saw the same level of growth. These came from the office of National

statistics. This survey covered December to February. Looking back

to that period, the UK figures are pretty poor today. 70,000 more

people looking for work during that period. In Scotland, by contrast,

11,000 fewer people looking for work. As you said, it fell below

200,000, to 197,000, the first time since 2009. The number of people who

are in work, not looking for it, that rose by 39,000. The strongest

growth we have had in 12 years. The strongest growth in the UK, that

fell by 2000. Scotland doing pretty well, big contrast. By all of these

measures, the rest of the UK still struggling along. . How can we

explain that difference Partly, an unwinding of what happened early in

the year. It may be that the effect of the data, the economy, still

bumping along the bottom pulled back the UK economy and Scotland catches

up. In fact, Scotland and the UK have, throughout this downturn, been

very similar. Now, we are looking at unemployment in Scotland of 7.3%.

The UK, 7.9%. That is the bigger gap we have seen. Some things make you

wonder about the reliability of the data. One interesting thing is that

because oil and gas production from the North Sea is counted as

something that is not Scottish, it counts towards the UK figures but

not Scottish, it dragged down output because we have had a very steep

fall, and unexpected steep fall, in output of the gas fields in the

latter half of last year. It dragged down the UK output. Scotland had had

its geographic share, it would have seen much worse than it was.

Interesting to be that amount. Eddie Barnes, when John Swinney, the

Finance Secretary, looks at these figures, he must be ready pleased?

Absolutely. As Douglas said, the jobs figures are extremely good,

nobody is denying that. There is a small caveat there are about how

much of those people are going into employment are part-time or

self-employed. We are seeing a big growth in part-time employment.

There is an issue there about how many people are finding full-time

work. On the GDP figures, it is an interesting political debate today.

As Douglas said, was the oil figures. There is almost an

inversion of the way the oil figures are being used. The UK Government

briefing that, had oil being counted in Scotland, their GDP figures would

be much worse. It is because of the fact that oil is going to within the

UK that it is all a statistic nominee. -- statistical anomaly. It

just shows that in different cases, different issues are raised. Maybe

the Scottish Government has been taking credit for what is happened,

but I have seen a few press releases from the Lib Dems and Labour are

saying not to be complacent. There is a longer-term issue here which is

the job figures and GDP is not that dissimilar in Scotland to the rest

of the UK. I don't think people will be whooping about this and saying, "

here we go! " . The longer term picture is still one of very slow

growth. It is hard to see how we will get out of that. Thank you to

both of you. Let's return to the Lady Thatcher

funeral. Let's cross to the Garden Lobby at Holyrood. Good afternoon

Brian. What is the mood at Holyrood today? Maybe slightly different from

Westminster. There were one of two parliamentarians who were there. The

First Minister, the Presiding Officer and the leader of the

Scottish Kirk observed -- leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Most

people are talking about the funeral. Perhaps one to mumbling to

themselves bars of the music. If you are talking about the remarks from

the Bishop of London when he referred to Lady Thatcher 's

comments about society. That issue of whether there is or is not

society and what it accounts for is the topic of the debate that was due

to take place today but is now taking place tomorrow. With that

debate being moved, a very controversial debate, what has the

discussion been at Holyrood today? Are people examining what decisions

were taken and why it was moved? think it was, ultimately, that the

party, the Greens and the independents, who wanted the debate

to be held today because this is their chance to hold the debate.

When given the opportunity to older tomorrow, all of the other parties,

were suggesting gently, and sometimes not so gently, that this

would not be a very good idea, would not be good for the parliament and

project a good image for the parliament. They agreed to move it.

It will have a beneficial effect with regard to the debate itself. It

is entirely legitimate to debate the legacy of Margaret Thatcher and all

for the policy ethos that underpins politics here in Scotland, right

now. That is certainly, as I understand it, what Patrick Harvie

of the Greens intends to do. He will speak first in the debate tomorrow.

He's opening the debate on the issue of Margaret Thatcher and society. He

will argue that it is not about the legacy but about what sort of

Scotland, he will argue, could be created post independence. It is

very interesting that the Greens did change their minds. Even late on

Monday night, they seemed ready entrenched in their position.

pressure upon them was very substantial indeed. Ultimately, the

Scottish Parliament is good at organisation. The business could

have been altered over their heads, using the Government 's majority.

That could have been done. The Government, obviously, did not want

to do that. That would be interfering in the business of

another party. These party days, days that are allocated to

individual parties or party groups, they are very jealously guarded and

regarded as very important because it is an opportunity for opposition

parties to set the agenda rather than always being government

business ought business emanating from legislation or committees. They

did not want to that. It was made clear that all the other parties

were against it and that she would frown fairly vigorously on the

debate is taking place today. It will be advantageous but it takes

place tomorrow. It will be more open, it will allow the

Conservatives to participate, they may speak very ruthlessly and robust

politicians attending today's funeral. He spoke about Margaret

Thatcher's legacy in Scotland. was her social policies that set the

ball rolling for a renewed vigour for a Scottish parliament. It is

that overwhelming desire among people in Scotland to escape from

the social bedlam of the 1980s, it was the result of Margaret Thatcher.

She set the ball rolling to make Scottish self-government a huge

priority and that ball is still rolling fast. In that respect,

people should reflect that in some ways she helped Scottish democracy.

So there is a sense in which she was somewhat of a gift to opposition

politicians? She was not a gift in the sense that, I would argue that

many of her policies were extremely divisive and when you have divisive

policies people suffer, and many suffer unnecessarily. Much of that

resentment is still alive many years later. But nonetheless, in terms of

what changed between 1979, when there was a narrow vote in favour of

a parliament, and in 1997 when there was an overwhelming vote in favour

of Parliament, people realised if they wanted to avoid such a policy

agenda again they had better have a democratic parliament in Scotland. I

am sure that Margaret Thatcher would have been disappointed in that but I

hope she would have seen the irony at least will stop in that respect,

we should reflect on the fact that was a consequence of her approach to

politics. I am joined again by Eddie Burns. The first Minister was in the

congregation at the funeral service. He accepted the invitation, saying

he was there representing the people of Scotland. As was the first

Minister of Wales and other political leaders from across the

country and the world. As has been said over and over again, she was a

titanic figure. That remains the case. What I thought was interesting

today, there were a lot of people who came out despite what happened

in Boston two days ago. I thought that might make a difference. And

people still have very strong opinions about this. And the Greens

debate anti-Thatcher legacy, it is still have that resonance, doesn't

it? -- and the Thatcher legacy. There was maybe time for a bit more

reflection. We have seen a second analysis of her legacy so this

question tomorrow which I think is looking at whether there is such a

thing as society, the Bishop of London in his sermon today actually

took on this point and made the point that in his field that had

been widely misunderstood. That is another issue MSPs will have to

reflect on tomorrow. It seems like almost being back to the 1980s. We

saw a lot of the characters from the 1980s at the funeral. All those

figures still alive, all attending the funeral. Absolutely. You realise

just how much time has passed when you see many of them but, as I just

said, the issues are still very current. There has been a lot of

controversy about the magnitude of the funeral and David Cameron and

George Osborne there. Has it been difficult for them to face up to

this and the legacy? I don't think for George Osborne but particularly

for David Cameron. Every single Conservative leader since Margaret

Thatcher was driven out of Downing Street has had her shadow. David

Cameron acknowledged that today in the interviews he had beforehand. He

has had to distance himself from her prior to when he took over the

leadership and became prime minister. But all his decisions, his

mannerisms, his approach to the job, now that he is in that

position, they are judged on that and on her standing. Watching the

funeral and looking at Twitter at the same time, George Osborne looked

quite upset and it did seem that David Cameron did seem to yawn

during one of the hymns. I think you will see that in the newspapers

tomorrow, the contrasting image of David Cameron laughing at a joke the

Bishop was making at the same time George Osborne seem to be crying.

And a lot of this will probably come up in the debate tomorrow. I think

they will pick up on this point which the bishop may today about the

misunderstanding that has taken place in his view over the" there is

no society" comment. The truth of it has rather got blurred in the

intervening period and that is the challenge. The Conservatives

probably have to try and take that on tomorrow. Thank you very much.

Instead of the Greens debate on the Thatcher legacy, MSPs on debating

the procurement reform bill at Holyrood. They say more needs to be

done to allow small and medium-sized businesses to benefit from

government contracts. Nearly half of that goes direct into

small firms employing fewer than 50 people. We have got a shared service

platform which processes over �5 billion of transactions every year.

As I announced yesterday to the new crime campus, we now have a

situation where 80 % of supply is awarded contracts through the public

portal are based in Scotland and 68 % our Scottish -based SMEs. The fact

is, more Scottish -based businesses than ever before are winning

business with the Scottish public sector and I think we should

celebrate that, but there is still much work to do. This leaves me in

no doubt that it is positive. But we need to address as many of the

frustrations as we can. Before I talk more about particular aspects

of the reform programme, it is important to mention the context.

Public Procurement Bill governed by a detailed, conferences and often

complex European laws. They are the product of a policy that at European

level is intended to promote economic growth by opening up

markets. We might not agree with every aspect of European law, in

fact we do not agree with every aspect of European law, but we

should always strive to work with maximum flexibility. But we are

bound by these rules. A point has been made already that Scottish

businesses themselves benefit from these rules when they win contracts

internationally as they frequently do. However, seeking to influence

European law is very important and I have been pleased to see the

cross-party collaboration of our members of the European Parliament

in trying to share European procurement. Ministers have

supported that position directly with the commission. So far we have

not been successful in securing that change but that should not

deteriorate from continuing to lobby vigorously at EU level for sensible

reform. Just on a question of timing, does the Minister in ten to

wait until the EU process of reform is further down the line before a

bill is introduced yet? Or does she intend to proceed before we know

what the outcome of the European process will be? We hope to

introduce the bill before the summer recess. We are required to give

ourselves comfort that what we are proposing in that bill is going to

be within the confines of the revised European directive. I will

keep Parliament updated on that timescale. In taking forward our own

reforms, I think it is vitally important that we are both aware of

and that we are very frankly recognise the tension that will

inevitably be at the heart of any approach to procurement. On the one

hand, we want the system to help businesses grow and become more

competitive. On the other hand, we can't ignore opportunities to save

money so we need to strive to strike the right balance. That is what we

are seeking to do in our approach to procure and reform. An essential

element is the proposed procurement reform Bill. Consultation closed

late last year. We have had responses from a wide range of

interests. The analysis was published earlier this year and the

findings are helping inform the final content of the bill. I hope

the bill will hence this accelerated improvements in the system and make

sure that in major contracts we add additional value, whether that is

economic, social or environmental value. It will also help to tackle

unnecessary inconsistencies. I and will make sure that doing business

with the public sector is simple, more transparent and more accessible

for suppliers. While European law does not allow it to discriminate in

favour of indigenous businesses, moving the barriers in pretty woman

markets can and will -- procurement markets can and will improve the

situation. Using the bill to promote standardisation will improve value

for money and reduce cost. No wait, presiding officer, is that more

important than in the construction sector, which is facing particular

challenges. Last October we launched a fundamental review of construction

procurement and we want to see the sort of improvements delivered for

goods and services procurement over recent years replicated for

construction. I know the industry is desperate to see improvements as

well. Back to Eddie Barnes once again.

Public Procurement Bill form can sound a little dry but I suppose it

is a rich source of revenue for many of these businesses. She sounds like

she is trying to cut away the red tape to make it simple, transparent

and accessible for small businesses to access. It is a constant

complaint and it is not going to get an awful lot of news coverage but it

is a constant complaint of small to medium-sized businesses. The red

tape is too much to get involved in these public sector contracts. It is

very important that the public sector is there to sustain

businesses that need it. It is crucial stuff. On the biggest gale,

we have seen the outcry over the Forth Road Bridge, these things can

become very controversial. Labour say not enough is being done to help

small and medium-sized businesses. But it sounded like she was

addressing those points. In the little clip you had there, there is

an issue of new legislation, the difficulty of being able to favour

indigenous companies over a company from elsewhere on the continent that

may have a more efficient case. At a time when there is not an awful lot

in the public purse, this is a major tension because it sounds very easy

to say, let's favour the company down the road or support on social

grounds, but if you don't have much money as a local authority or a

national government, you may well be tempted to go for the lowest bid and

many people will say quite rightly. You mentioned the European aspect.

Far be it from me to say that European redtape is a corrugated

process but I think she said it. There are reform is going on at

European level as well. That's right. There is always that attempt

by politicians, whatever level, that they are going to try and get rid of

redtape. There is a reason why the redtape is there in the first place

and it is not that easy to cut it back. When it comes to these big

companies that seem to profit from government contracts, why is it

easier for them to get hold of these contracts? Is it because they have

the expertise? From what I understand, they are bigger firms

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 64 seconds

who have not got the manpower. you have the private sector not

doing that in the public sector consolidating and having to run it

back where are the options. Thank you. There were no Prime Minister's

Questions at Westminster today, postponed for Lady Thatcher 's

funeral. Senior Scottish politicians, from

across the political divide, attended the service. Our

correspondent joins us now from London.

Thank you. A different feel about Westminster over the past 48 hours.

Traffic is back to normal, the barriers have come down. Business

will be getting back to normal. Today is very much aid of

reflection. Joining me in our for Scottish -- joining me are four

Scottish politicians. Ming Campbell, you are at the service, how did it

strike you? Was it a state funeral or something more restrained? Much

more restrained. There were quite a lot of trappings outside but once we

were inside St Paul's Cathedral, the music was wonderful. It was a

quintessentially English occasion. I was sitting beside an Anglican

priest who said to me, everything that has been said and done would

have been said and done in a country church in Yorkshire with only 50

people present. It was as Mrs Thatcher wanted it to be. I don't

think we should be concerned about it being English. Of course, nothing

was more Scottish than John Smith's funeral which I also attended some

years ago. In what has been said and written the last ten days, since the

death of Lady Thatcher, where, from a Scottish perspective, or Scottish

Labour perspective, should we reflect? It is interesting, when I

spoke with constituents on Thursday about the events, they were capable

of distinguishing about the sympathy that they would feel for a parent

who -- a childhood lost a parent and the policies of the governments that

she led in the 1980s. Whilst there was recognition of the harm that was

suffered, Dublin of job 40, de-industrialisation, but there was

a sympathy that a Prime Minister should be treated with respect. --

doubling of child poverty. We know that the Scottish National Party or

opposed to much of what happened under Margaret Thatcher 's

leadership. Putting a bit of distance to it, what is her legacy

in Scotland? You will have to forgive me. I saw the daughter and

son of Baroness Thatcher watching her cough and been carried away but

he will forgive me, on a deal like this, it is absolutely right and

proper to stress that, remind yourself that we are talking about a

funeral and then move onto a cremation of the first female Prime

Minister the UK. My views are well known. The views of the SNP are

well-known. I think, perhaps on another day, there is a discussion

to be had. Today, for me, in faulty funeral, cremation and I would

rather reflect on that than going into the political divisions that we

have. We know they are very significant but I don't think today

is the day to be abating dose. -- involved a few rural. From a

Scottish Conservative point of view, what were your feelings? I think the

funeral was a wholly appropriate way of recognising Mrs Thatcher 's

memory, both from the point of view of her family and the point of view

of the nation. It was a recognition of the significant individual who

was the dominant political figure, not just here in the United

Kingdom, but across the world in the 20th century. Also, a mother and

grandmother. One of the most moving part of the service was when her

granddaughter read one of the lessons. I think it was clearly the

send-off that Mrs Thatcher would have wanted, in terms of what

happened in St Paul's Cathedral and the reaction of the public outside

shows the strong positive feelings that many people still have for Mrs

Thatcher across the United Kingdom. It is a question I want to put the

job you, the theory that Donald Dewar had that said he was the

father of devilish and, he said that everything that happened with

Scotland in the 1980s, Margaret Thatcher was the mother of

devolution. She was an influence. I'll became a member of Parliament

in 1987, in what was a recognised Conservative seat, because there was

such antipathy to Thatcherism. There was no formal pact but an electoral

pact to give support to the opposition party that was best able

to beat the Conservative Government. She had a significant impact on

building support for devolution, in terms of some of the policies of the

Government she was involved with that lets not forget, the devilish

and debate began decades before her period of government. The

declaration of Perth, just before I was born, so, yes, she was

significant in terms of the debate but, I think, the will of the

Scottish people was beginning to form itself for even her period in

office. I think what she showed is that ideas matter in politics. If

you have a big idea, that you translate into politics, it gets

things done. That is what people respect in politics. She showed that

can be done. I grew up in the 1980s as a teenager. Frankly, it was

because of a lot of things that Margaret Thatcher was doing in

government that I became active in government, not because I supported

it but because I opposed it. There are a lot of people throughout

Scotland whose politics were very influenced by that experience,

recognising that we do stand for community and society across the

parties, at least most of us in Scotland and value that is being

tremendously important. To that extent, I think Margaret Thatcher

did the role because her government was not elected with a majority in

Scotland get her policies when imposed, just such as the poll tax

in Scotland. She definitely had an influence. At the end of the day, it

was the people that decided that we wanted to move beyond that to have a

government that we elect to make the important decisions that matter. To

that extent, the way she governed throughout the 1980s did help people

come to that view about devolution and, I think, also helped a lot of

people come to the conclusion on independence. Of course, it could be

argued that Margaret Thatcher was the mother of devolution, people

have done so. Above all, she was a Democrat and that is how devilish

and came about in Scotland. Democracy. It was the will of the

Scottish people, demonstrated in the ballot box. That was ultimately what

Margaret Thatcher respected throughout her career. She always

stood up for those people who wanted to speak freely. I think, not just

in Scotland, not just in Britain, but one of the real significance of

today is the way in which Mrs Thatcher is regarded throughout the

world and the part she played in opening up eastern Europe, bringing

the end to communism and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Today's funeral was

not just about Mrs Thatcher in Britain but about her in the world.

It was an entirely appropriate way to respect that and to advance the

contribution that she clearly made, not just here in Britain but across

the world. I am very grateful for all of your thoughts. Thank you very

much. A flavour of some of the thoughts here at Westminster on the

day that the funeral took place of Margaret Thatcher, the first and, so

far only, Prime Minister of Great Britain.

Just before we get some more political reaction, I am joined by

Eddie Barnes from the Scotsman. Interesting to see the mood at

Westminster, essentially. The politicians they were rather

subdued, perhaps not need a for debating her legacy. Not just at

Westminster. I think people are recognising that this is a funeral

has taken place. There is also a concern, I think we have seen this

over the last week, not to play politics too overtly with this at a

time when somebody has died. There is a risk that there is a backlash

against that. Even the protests that have been arranged in George Greer

today, they not until this evening, not until the general has taken

place. -- George Square. Most people recognise, if fully for their own

sakes, there is a need to be careful.

Our correspondent joins us now from Holyrood. Let's speak to Patrick

Harvie, also. Thank you all for joining me. Alex Johnstone, where

you able to watch the funeral this morning? Your reaction. You'll like

I was in committee at the start but was able to watch the end of the

live coverage. I thought it was a suitable and appropriate

commemoration for a woman who is, without a doubt, the finest

peacetime Prime Minister this country has ever had.

Did you feel the skill of the funeral was I think it was very

appropriate appropriate. -- I think it was very appropriate. She took on

some of the most fundamental problems of this country and dealt

with them. We will spend generations banking error.

Will be justified the scale? Is it because she took the country to war?

Does it set a precedent for someone like Tony Blair, who could equally

matched those claims? I don't think Tony Blair can match that record at

all. Thatcher was a political colossus. If there is anything that

pays due respect that it is what has happened in terms of the protest

over the Daft lefties have been out in George Square and out in the

House of Commons, and even here in the Garden Lobby of the Houses of

Parliament, commemorating a fight which they took on a generation ago

and lost heavily. They have commemorated a defeat and by doing

so they also have paid their respects to Margaret Thatcher.

Patrick Harvie of the Greens, I sure he was not referring to you as the

Daft lefty. I can't think he meant! To be honest, I was dealing with

correspondence and my office. I did not have much interest in the media

event that has been dulled around this, the attempt to turn Margaret

Thatcher into some mythic figure. I don't buy that and I think it is

much more important to debate the legacy of the political ideas that

she represented. They are still dominant. I find that very

regrettable. Alex Johnstone no doubt things that a marvellous thing that

we are still installed with a free-market and the privatisation

agenda that has failed us so abysmally. We have seen the chickens

come home to roost in the last years with a collapse of an economic model

that Margaret Thatcher pioneered, new Labour continued and that we

desperately need to challenge an overturned. More at any second.

Stewart Maxwell, how did you spend the morning? Mister Salmond was in

the congregation. He was there representing the people of Scotland.

Of course. It was right and proper that the First Minister attended the

funeral on behalf of the people of Scotland. I spent the morning

working. I did not see any of the funeral coverage, apart from a quick

snatch on one of the televisions in another office as I passed. My

responsibility was to carry on my work as an MSP for the people of

Scotland. Also, to work on my committee work. The big controversy

this week, of course, has been the Scottish Greens and Independents

going to have their debate on Thatcher 's legacy. It was meant to

be debate and moved at the last minute. As Patrick said, it is still

a big debate to have. He will happen It is an important debate to have

but the parliamentary bureau made the right decision in ensuring that

it did not take place today. It will take place tomorrow with the

Conservatives are here at full strength unable to defend the record

of Margaret Thatcher in the way that we. She is a political colossus, as

I said, and we need a good, strong representation for the memory of

Margaret Thatcher in tomorrow's debate. How much pressure did you

put on Patrick Harvie to have that debate moved? It would not be fair

to say there was an enormous amount of pressure! Perhaps, it is a

tribute to the system that we use, the parliamentary bureau, that

common sense was arrived at at the has taken place would have been an

appropriate time to have the debate. Others disagreed and the bureau

reached a compromise that I hope everybody is happy with, that we do

take forward the debate. I think having the debate tomorrow might

lead to a more robust debate. tribute to the great leader. If she

had been faced with it, I hope she would have cancelled her own funeral

rather than be a bit oversensitive about it but I hope members who

might have been tiptoeing around sensitivities are ready for a robust

exchange of views and a debate about Scotland's future because Scotland

is about to make a decision about its own constitutional future and I

think there are people on both sides of that debate will be able to find

some common ground in terms of the kind of society we ought to be

looking to build and moving away from that centre-right consensus

that has been dominant for far too long. You don't seem too pleased it

was moved. How did you reach that compromise? Were you overruled?

we had been discussing the issue for some days in advance. As the mood

became clear, it was a reasonable compromise to make and we made that

decision on the Tuesday morning before the bureau and during the

bureau when we heard what everyone's views were. It is a

reasonable compromise and I hope everyone is willing to accept, move

on and have the debate. Stewart Maxwell, when it comes to Margaret

Thatcher's legacy, people have said independence will be a Thatcherite

agenda. No corporation tax, business friendly, you have taken a lot of

the ideas on board. I don't recognise that future at all.

Thatcher is the past. It is a government I grew under. It is

something I'd fought against them and I would fight against in the

future. I want to see a bright future for Scotland. I want to make

it a business friendly future for Scotland so we can grow employment.

Figures out today show higher employment and that is a real

tribute to the Scottish government, taking an alternative route to the

UK government even within the limited powers we have. Tomorrow, we

want to look forward and see a vision of Scotland which is green

but also enterprising and a better future for our children. Ken Clarke

said Thatcher's legacy has been a free-market economy coupled with a

social conscience. Is that what the SNP believes? We believe in a social

democratic future and a safety net in terms of social services. We want

to make sure the old and the vulnerable are properly taken care

of. But we also believe in an economy which is growing, which is

active, which is friendly to business but not a free for all in

terms of a right-wing agenda that Margaret Thatcher pursued in the

early 1980s. I think that would be bad for Scotland. I think it has

been proved to be bad for Scotland in terms of the legacy left by the

Thatcher government. It is time we moved away from that agenda. We can

only do that through independence. Let's turn the corner into the

employment statistics. Alex Johnstone, are you going to

congratulate them for the fact that unemployment is down by 11,000?

think the figures are exceptionally good but the truth is, Scotland and

the rest of the UK follow a very similar pattern in terms of these

figures but they are slightly out of sync which means in some quarters

Scotland appears better and in others, Scotland appears worse. We

have got used to the idea that every time the figures are announced, it

is George Osborne's fault if they are worse, and if they are better,

it is John Sweeney's achievement. I think that is a misleading way to

approach this. I want to say it is a product of George Osborne's

achievement. There is a press release today saying the UK economy

is declining but Scotland is in growth. Scotland GDP figures

included offshore oil and gas production. Without those, it would

have fallen. I think that is a nonsensical argument. We keep

hearing this argument that if you did not have oil and gas, your

economy would be in a worse state. But we do have land gas and they are

part of our economy. Nobody says it would be a disaster for the

Norwegian economy if they did not have all learned gas because they

do. It is a nonsensical argument. -- oil and gas because they do. In

Scotland, we are doing all we can to deal with the powers we have two

make sure we have proper growth in our economy. Is this positive news

for Scotland? It is too early to make sadistic analysis of short-term

figures. Let's be honest, the long-term trends are still looking

very difficult and neither government is measuring some of the

things that matter such as the quality of employment, not just the

amount of employment. Whether the new jobs being created on low wage

and are therefore subsidised by the welfare state, which is itself being

cut dramatically. And when it comes to oil and gas, we are still running

the kind of economy which says, bizarrely, that the faster you use a

finite resource, the richer you are. That is nonsensical. Patrick Harvie,

Alex Johnstone, Stewart Maxwell, thank you for joining me. Lord

McCluskey has criticised Westminster's proposals for press

regulation, saying it would set a wonderful example for Putin and

Mugabe and other dictators. He was giving evidence to the education and

culture committee who are looking at whether the Royal Charter should be

extending to Scotland following the phone hacking scandal. First of all,

the enquiry sat for a year and the words Royal Charter were never used

in the entire enquiry except in relation to passing it to the BBC.

He never considered the merits of that. It suddenly emerged on

February 12 in circumstances that are well known to the press after

the press men lay down a number of red lines for the government

negotiator, the Conservative party negotiator, I should say. And then

they emerged with the Royal Charter. The Royal Charter does not go

through Parliament, it is not subject to the amendment or

legislative consent motion in Scotland, so you will be denied a

voice. Take a very important question, who should be brought

within the jurisdiction of the body? We have said the printed press

and the online versions of it and pointed to various definitions of

other countries and other statues. That decision is one that ought to

be taken by an elected parliament who is within the range of this

administrative body. Not by a Royal Charter. We have adopted the same

definition as the Royal Charter because we copied the one from the

Department of culture, media and sport, but that all to be looked at

by legislators, not decided in smoke-filled rooms. The privy

Council consisting of those the Prime Minister says come to the

meeting. I have already made the point that Putin and Mugabe must be

rubbing their hands with glee at the idea they can issue a decree in

which they determine all these rules. What a terrible example for

us to offer to the world. Bypass the legislature in all these matters. In

relation to Scotland, the idea that the Scottish press is immune from

what happened in England is complete nonsense. Glenn Mull K, and those

who have been identified in England, whether they worked for News

International, their words were printed, as David has said, in

Scotland, and I can't emphasise enough the importance of the four

cases that figured. The idea that somehow the Scottish press are fully

of blemish is hogwash. How do you think Scotland should proceed? Do

you think Scotland should ignore the Royal Charter? If the gamble is

right, and it may well be right because it is not written in

Scottish terms, Scotland is not mentioned, it probably does not

apply to Scotland. The regulation of the press having been devolved to

Scotland, if the Royal Charter does not apply, Scotland has got no

regulation at all and our advice, plainly, is we can do it in

Scotland. To that extent we have drafted a bill which is only a very

provisional bill in which you define as elected members to whom the

jurisdiction should apply and you can enact it. In Ireland, where they

went through this process, the daily express conforms to their code, and

so does the Spectator and everybody else. The Irish government made it

plain, if you don't sign up, we will make legislative compulsory. In

Scotland, we don't write the regulatory code, let the editors do

that, but the enforcement mechanism has got to love -- say that if we

don't move in the right way, we will have two regulate you ourselves.

Lord McCluskey's view is that the press is going to fail anyway but

the enquiry has clearly given them the last opportunity to get their

house in order. It is not saying you are going to fail. It recommended

alternative dispute resolution, it recommended the cost issue, and it

recommended exemplary damages. I accept exemplar we damages cannot

play a part because they are not part of Scots law. But why throw

away everything on the basis of that one issue? Why not proceed on the

basis of a Royal Charter if we are able to do that, with the removal of

the issue of exemplary damages? Let's return to our main topic today

and get thoughts of Eddie Barnes on Margaret Thatcher's funeral. Will

the legacy debate continue for ever? It is still the day of the funeral.

I think there will be a lot of politicians in Scotland and

throughout the UK who would like to move on. The whole legacy of

Thatcher is has dominated politics for so long -- Thatcherism. In some

ways, we saw with the Labour Party to years ago in the Scottish

elections that they still thought that on the basis of Thatcherism and

they got absolutely thrashed. There is a feeling among a lot of

politicians that they would like to leave that now and move on. David

Cameron faces those challenges. People have been criticising him for

the so-called bedroom tax. There are new issues and the same debates will

go on between right and left on welfare reform. But many of these

issues have got caught up within the mythology of Margaret Thatcher and a