18/12/2013 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to the last Politics Scotland of 2013. Coming

up... Good news on the employment figures,

with more people in a job, but pay still lags behind inflation.

With Christmas round the corner, MSPs debate new plans to tackle

payday loans - we'll have that live. At Westminster, claim and

counterclaim over the health of Scottish finances.

And as it's our last show we take a look at the A to Z of 2013 with our

panel of guests. But first, the number of Scots

seeking work in August to October was down by 7000, while the number

of people in work was up. That is in line with the figures for the UK as

a whole, though pay continues to lag behind inflation. Here is our

business and economy editor, Douglas Fraser.

There is some Christmas cheer from today's figures, even as they cover

August to October. The number of Scots seeking work down by 7000 to

196,000. 99,000 fewer in the UK seeking work. In Scotland the

unemployment rate has reached 7.1% and the UK rate is down to 7.4%,

down to the 7% which the Bank of England has said could signal

sufficient economic recovery for interest rates to start writing

again. With 11,000 more Scots in work on the Scottish Government is

highlighting a record number of Scots women working. We now have

more women in employment than any of - ever before, in excess of 1.2

million which is really good news. It is that increase that is driving

the overall increase in employment. The data also includes pay and it

was up in the year to October by 0.9%, still short of the inflation

rate. Real spending power is still being squeezed.

Let's discuss this a bit further now with our guests for the afternoon,

the political commentator Alf Young and Gillian Bowditch from The Sunday

Times. Good afternoon. Alf, looking at these figures, it is pretty good

news for the economy. Yes, in general terms it is good news and

for many people quite surprising news in terms of jobs it is recovery

is still quite slack. There is a recovery in output but the fact that

the market is as resilient as it appears to be as good news. It

appears to be in line with the rest of the UK. The improvement is

Scotland is slightly better in terms of the jobless rate. -- in Scotland.

In terms of new jobs being created, pretty similar. The Scottish number

and the UK number both mask huge variation in the country at large.

In the north East of England unemployment is still under 10%. In

Aberdeenshire it is maybe down to 1%, 2%. You have enormous variation.

Gillian, seeing in the film that there is record numbers of women in

employment since the records started being taken 21 years ago. That is to

be welcomed obviously. We still have a situation where wages for women

tend to lack behind and more women are in part-time work, but very good

news and certainly for women who have wanted to get back into the

workforce after perhaps having children or their husbands being

affected by the recession, it is good that these jobs are available.

It is interesting about wages because they are short of inflation

so pay is still being squeezed. Living standards are being squeezed

because people are not making enough to make up for the rise in prices.

That is part of the dynamic, not just that the economy is creating

the jobs but that women are seeking to go out to work because it is a

necessity. We are also finding significant numbers of older people

going back to work, although they are in receipt of the state pension,

because they need to supplement it to pay for energy bills and the

rest. There are a number of dynamisms at work. We have good

figures, Gillian, in unemployment, maybe growth coming back in, but the

cost of living fright -- crisis is as Labour frame said. The

Conservatives and the SNP can both claimed they have helped to drive

these figures, Ed Miliband can complain about the very real

squeezed the families. Plenty for politicians to get their teeth into.

We will see you both shortly. Let's get some political reaction to

this. We will cross live to Holyrood and join the SNP's Kevin Stewart,

Liam McArthur from the Liberal Democrats and Labour's Ken

Macintosh. It is the time of year when we are

all spending extra but there is concern about what happens when that

gets out of control. Good news for the Scottish and

British governments. Unemployment is lower in Scotland than the rest of

the UK and that is extremely good news but I still think we could do

more if we had all of the levers of power of an independent country. For

me, the particularly good news in all of this is the fact that women

in employment is at its highest since records began. We could do

even better there as well if we had independence. In Denmark, 79% of

women with children under six are in employment. In the UK it is only

59%. With independence we could do much better. We can put that to Liam

McArthur. Good news for the UK economy as a whole but let's look at

what he was saying, mentioning childcare, a key divide it in the

independence debate. How could the economy improved if we take on what

the SNP are saying? Kevin is right, it is a good news in Scotland and in

the UK and it justifies the difficult but necessary decisions we

have taken in relation to the UK economy. I am interested that

childcare has been chosen by the SNP as a flagship dividing line in the

debate around breaking up the UK. We have all of the powers we need to

deliver childcare now, it is about political choices and the choice the

government has made is in relation to extending provision to

two-year-olds, which is happening south of the border, but the SNP

have decided to hold that hostage in return for a yes vote next year. I

think that will be seen as passing strange by not just women in

Scotland but parents right across Scotland. Why doesn't the Scottish

Government just do it now? The difficulty is that we don't control

our finances at this moment in time. The extra taxation could be

put in to provide more childcare. I would have more respect for him and

his colleagues if they said that the Treasury would guarantee that any

money made would comeback to Scotland to fund the policy. They

won't make that promise. Liam McArthur, the Treasury give ring a

promised that the extra money will go for a living. -- giving. We have

had previous on this. We have the powers to deal with this now. We

have eight children and young people Bill who has -- which has the

opportunity to put this in practice so the SNP government has to deal

with this instead of holding it hostage. Ken Macintosh, back on

track with the economy, perhaps rather awkward figures that Ed

Miliband today at PMQs. He welcomes the good news about the figures but

you are still pursuing the cost of living crisis when it looks like the

economy is growing. There is a cost of living crisis and it is right for

us to talk about the issues that worry people. The ferry to the last

interchange, it worries me that Kevin Stewart basically seems to be

more concerned with the income that this policy would generate for the

Scottish Government than the fact that it would help women back into

work. That is nonsense. This is not a political story, it is about what

it means to people. Whether Scotland or England is doing better is beside

the point. At the moment there are 75,000 people not in work from the

pre-recession hi. This is not anything that can be described as

first class. It is a very difficult time for most people. If you look

beyond the headline figures, there are some quite worrying news today.

The economic activity level has increased by 10000 and long-term

youth unemployment has increased. -- economic inactivity. The people with

temporary jobs has gone up. People are going back to temporary,

insecure, irregular work. Rather like the number of women in

employment going up, it is a news story but it is probably the case

that many families are having to go back to the workplace to supplement

their earnings because they are feeling squeezed. Another issue

related to that, you will be debating the Bankruptcy and Debt

Advice Bill, people turning to payday loan lenders. How will this

help people in financial trouble, Kevin Stewart? I think this bill

creates a financial health service to try to ensure that people do not

get into debt. I would say that the government's 12 days of debt

campaign is a particularly good one and I think there has been a lot of

response to that. However, one of the things that drive spoke into

debt is payday loan companies. One of the disappointing things is that

the Westminster government refuses to cap those companies until the 1st

of January 2015. I think there should be brought forward. Beyond

that, the Westminster government's welfare reform policies will also

drive more and more people into debt. Let's put that to Liam

McArthur. It is being debated this afternoon in Parliament at

Westminster could be taking action just now? In terms of the welfare

reform process, what we have seen from the SNP is absolutely no detail

on the alternative provisions they would bring forward. They have not

explained how they would plug the ?2.5 billion gap in our finances and

indeed they have acknowledged the need to reform welfare and make it

simpler without abiding any detail so I think it lacks any credibility

and is a black hole in the middle of the white paper. In terms of this

afternoon's proceedings, it is generally cross-party support for

work in this area, we do need to ensure, as Kevin said, that people

do not fall into debt in the first place and there are measures to be

taken in terms of improving advice they are getting. There is concern

about extending the payback period the debt to four years. I know it is

a fine balance between those in debt and those who are owed but concerns

are legitimately being raised about extending that to four years and

whether that would not increase the problems for those who are trying to

get out of debt. Is There Cross-party Consensus On This Bill?

There Are Some Concerns About Citizens Advice And People Like That

Not Been Given Enough Money. It Is Not Cross-party Consensus. What

Worries Me Is There Has Not Been a chance to do something in

Parliament. This will increase the major in bankruptcy. Kevin can talk

about is what Westminster should do. Why doesn't this using social

advertising funds to tackle these payday lenders? Why don't we extend

the loan guarantee fund to credit unions to provide practical support?

This Bill this afternoon does nothing, absolutely nothing to help

people with debt. Instead, my suspicion is it is about funding

bankruptcy and taking it from the Government books. It doesn't help

people who are struggling. If the reaction of the SNP in every

situation is to say, what should Westminster do? I despair. We have

to leave it there. Gentleman, thank you very much for joining me.

It is that time of year when we are all spending extra, but there's

concern about what happens when that gets out of control. MSPs are

debating the Bankruptcy and Debt Advice Bill in the chamber this

afternoon. It's the stage one debate and it's expected to pass its first

Parliamentary hurdle. Let's listen in to that now. The ministers

speaking for the Scottish Government.

We will see what we can do at stage two in order to achieve that. We

take the kick two technical criticisms made by somebody is on

this aspect of the Bill very seriously, of course. The committee

has passed on concerns about the ?10,000 threshold for entry into the

minimum assets process. Our new boot two route into bankruptcy by

debtors. I am happy to say they will be back in January with an amendment

to raise the maximum debt level. We propose an increase to ?17,000, an

increase which would set the threshold high enough to enable 75%

of all current cases to enter the MEP process. I hope this will

provide the necessary assurance that this important debt relief will be

available to those who need it most. The committee has raised the

important issue of bank accounts for and discharged debtors. It is

important we look at this and do what we can to make the necessary

provision during the amending stages and I have written to the British

banking Association to enlist their support. Of course, there are a

number of areas where the committee has agreed with the Scottish

Government. I am pleased that the committee has agreed a proposal to

extend the payment period after bankruptcy to cover 48 monthly

payments. I know, presiding Officer, that not everyone supports

this proposal, but it is important to have a debate on the basis of the

facts. First, it is not correct to say that this change will mean that

people in Scotland will have to pay back more to creditors than in any

other part of the UK. This is because there are insolvency

measures elsewhere in England and Wales such as individual voluntary

arrangements will the payment period is not four years, but is usually

five years. Second, at the same time as this change comes into force, we

will be fixing the common financial statement which is already

applicable in respect of some cases and from November in other cases,

which is run by the money advice trust, as the Scottish common

financial tool. This is important because it means contributions will

be set according to a consistent, transparent termination. Our

research has shown the should sit down might mean a more sustainable

level of contributions. We also recognise the importance of

providing guidance on the practical ordination of the tool to ensure it

works in practice. But, it is not true to say that longer payment

periods automatically lead to an... -- lead to an increase. We have had

reasonable stability since 2012 with 3% approximately. 3% of breakage is

approximately means that it is 97% of cases which are ordered -- or not

or tempered with the debtor and the debtor pays off his debts in full.

That strongly to be welcomed. I will do so in a minute, because as

paragraph 34 says, one of the objectors of this Bill is that those

who can pay should be. I will take intervention. Thank you. It is my

understanding that the European Commission has recommended that the

payment periods should in principle be 1-3 years and no longer than

three years. I understand that nowhere else in the UK we have a

payment period longer than three years. Why has the Scottish

Government recommended, against advice of many of the people I gave

advice to the committee? I have to correct the member on a number of

respects. First of all, Savannah 's advice to the Scottish Government,

-- so far as the advice to the Scottish Government, 42 members of

the Commission supported a four-year option. It is plainly a compromise

but the majority supported five years. Secondly, she said that in

England they do not pay for as long. Perhaps she was not listening to

what I said a moment ago. I said that individual voluntary

arrangements, which are agreements payable in England and Wales,

usually last for five years. That is longer than four years, not shorter.

I am afraid that those who argue that the position in England is that

debtors pay for a longer period are not taking account of the facts that

the opposite is the case because individual voluntary arrangements

usually, not always, for various technical reasons, but usually last

for five years. I will take intervention in a moment. I

understand that as a campaign mounted by the Labour Party, and I

would suggest you take advice from Tam DL, who knew a bit about

campaigning, which is that the first thing that should do in a campaign

is get your facts right. I wonder if the Minister would recognise that is

a difference between an individual voluntary agreement and bankruptcy

and what he is in fact doing is comparing apples with oranges? No, I

am very sorry to have to disagree, because I respect the strong passion

she brings to this topic and the work she does. It is simply not

correct to say that we are comparing like with unlike. Individual

voluntary arrangements are cleverly comparable with the insolvency

arrangements in Scotland and the truth is that this is a campaign

which has got off to a faltering start because it is not founded on

backs. -- on facts. I have the analysis of the consultation in

front of me. The question is posed, if yes, what would that extension

be? But the qualifying note under it says the majority of respondents who

answered this question felt that an extension was not necessary. They

answered only hypothetical point. Would the Minister committed to

going away and looking at the accountants and bankruptcy analysis

again? No, I will not, because I have it in front of me. I rather

thought this topic might come up. Question 10.41A, three or four

years? The answer was 27. The answer to five years, that was 32. More

than three years. There was a majority for a longer period than

they propose. You could say that the numbers are evenly matched between

three and five years. If you do, it is difficult to see how it would be

unreasonable to come forward with four years as a compromise, as it is

exactly a Goodison Park team three and five years. -- as it is Ecuador

cousin -- as it is equity soon. To Prime Minister's Questions now

and David Cameron told the Commons the fall in unemployment showed the

Government's economic plans were working. Ed Miliband welcomed the

figures but said that too many people were in part-time or low-paid

work. There were a few festive turkey jokes too.

Today's economic figures show a welcome fall in unemployment. And

for every person... For every person that gets back into work, it

benefits not just them by the family as well. Does he agree with me that

it is a major challenge for a Britain that at the end of this

year, there are more people than ever before in today's figures

working part-time because they cannot get hours they need? First of

all, I think it is worth looking at these unemployment details and some

detail, because they paid an encouraging figure. An appointment

is down by 95,000. The number of people claiming unemployment benefit

has fallen by 36,000 in this month alone. There are 250,000 more people

in work. Youth unemployment is down, long-term unemployment is down,

unemployment amongst women is down. We have talked before about 1

million more people in work under this Government. It is now 1.2

million more people in work. Now, there shouldn't be one ounce of

complacency because we have still got work to do to get our country

back to work and everyone back in work. It means greater stability for

them, greater ability to plan for the future, greater help for their

families. The thing they want to talk about waste of all is the cost

of living crisis facing families up and down the country. That is

because they know families are worse off. Can he tell us, how much higher

is the average gas and electricity Bill this Christmas compared to

last? They have a programme which will clearly leads to the

disappearance of 1 million jobs. Now we have 1.6 million more

private-sector jobs, 1.2 million more people in work, it is time he

apologised for his prediction of talking the economy going. --

talking the economy down. Let us compare our records the cost of

living. They doubled council tax, we have frozen it. They put up Vettel

tax 12 times, and we have frozen it. They put up the basic state pension

eye 75p, up be increased by ?15. We have a new hand gesture from the

Shadow Chancellor. After today's breathing in the papers, the gesture

should be goodbye. You do not need it to be Christmas to know you're

sitting next to a turkey. I can give the House something to cheer about.

Will the Prime Minister join with me in welcoming the fact that

investment in our oil and gas industry will reach a record

amount, counting for an unemployment rate in my constituency of just 7%?

Is he aware of the report that says we need collaboration between

Government and industry to unlock barrels of oil worth ?200 billion

which would otherwise be left in that the sea. It is an excellent

support and we are looking to put that in place. We want to maximise

the returns and employment and investment in the North Sea. In

recent months, we have seen encouraging signs of greater

investment in a North Sea, not least because of the decisions taken by

the chance to bring into play some of these more marginal fields. We

need to keep that up and lament that report. -- implement that report.

Let's stay down at Westminster and speak to our correspondent David

Porter, who's standing by on College Green. Thanks for joining us. An

issue that didn't come up at Prime Minister 's questions but has been

talked about quite a lot at Westminster today is nutritionally

figures which claim to show a big funding gap in the Scottish

Government's white paper. What is the story here? Since the

publication of this white paper by the Scottish Government on

independence, the people at the Treasury have been looking at the

Cal Deuters number crunching. They came up with figures which would

suggest a large black hole in the Scottish budget if they went

independent. They have estimated that if you add up the cost of

childcare provision, reduce air passenger duty, and corporation tax,

but the Scottish Government could be left with the black hole of ?1.6

billion in their budget. They say this would either have to be filled

by expenditure cuts or tax rises or something like that. The Scottish

Government have been quick to react. They accuse the UK Government's

figures of being all over the place. They say the Treasury figures do not

take into any account the fact that if you have better child provision,

for instance, you get more women back in the workforce and more

people paying tax. They say that the measures will help boost the

economy. What we are seeing is an old-fashioned argument about

spending and what Westminster and Holyrood are arguing about. We will

hear more about this in 2014. It feels like we have been here

before, with all of the black holes around, which has now come down to

1.6 billion. It seems like that doing and froing that happens

because of the referendum next year. Yes, all sides take the statistics

which they think are going to be important to them and make a case

from that. On one level it is political rhetoric, on the other

level it is important because when people vote in September they will

probably vote on the emotional argument but also probably on the

economic questions, whether they feel they will be better off or not

in an independent Scotland. Whoever wins the economic battle will feel

like they have done well. That is why both sides are fighting so hard

for this ground. Let's turn our attention back to PMQs. David

Cameron seemed to destroy the Labour opposition, waving farewell to Ed

balls, because of a briefing that has been in the Son. Are people

talking about the future of Ed balls? Yes, it is easiest to be a

Shadow Chancellor when the economy is not going well. Now the economy

seems to be improving, we have had the unemployment figures, better

growth figures, and as you alluded to a couple of weeks ago the Autumn

Statement, when George Osborne was able to taunt Ed Balls. Many people

feel that was not Ed Balls's finest day at the office. As regards

gestures and things, recently, when the economy was flat-lining, Ed

Balls used to do this to George Osborne and David Cameron, hinting

that the economy was flat-lining. Today, Mr Cameron, buoyed by the

unemployment figures, was keen to try to create the impression that

perhaps Ed Miliband used to do another hand gesture, waving Ed

Balls goodbye. Thank you very much. Alf Young and Gillian Bowditch are

still with me. Let's pick up on the Treasury claim about the ?1.6

billion funding gap in the white paper. As John Swinney says, it

seems like we have been here before. I find this use of the metaphor of

the black hole entirely unpersuasive because what it says to all of us is

that we are never going to get any sense out of these numbers. The

simple reality under this is, if you cut the tax, the amount of revenue

coming in will initially the less. If corporation tax or so on is

lower. Unless more people fly or companies make more money, in which

case more money comes back in. It is not an argument about black holes,

it is an argument predicated on the economy growing faster and getting

bigger so that the revenues come in. That is a debate that Scottish

people should really be thinking about, are they persuaded that if

there is free childcare or low passenger duty on air flights or low

corporation tax, will people in Scotland work harder, created a

bigger economy and produce the revenues that will allow that to

happen? -- create. Do people take the arguments about funding gaps on

when they are thinking about how to vote? I think people do have

concerns about the economy, I think that is a major topic that people

will look at when voting but a new Shia -- the minutiae are extremely

compact hated. We have a number of companies questioning that there is

going to be a lag, it takes a while for these taxes to come back. There

is no such thing as free childcare, the taxpayer will pay. People at

that level understand these arguments. Where it gets, the gated

is in the minutiae and the big numbers bandied around, but the

question is how they are going to balance the books in an independent

Scotland and I don't think that has been satisfactorily answered yet? Ed

Balls, do you think he could be in trouble? That story in the Son said

he could be out of a job in the autumn? -- the sun. It seems

unbelievable to me that if they were going to sack him by would wait

until next autumn. If they are going to do it, they should do it now.

Stay with us, we will be back with you in a moment.

Now as it's the final programme of the year let's take a look back with

our A to Z of 2013. There is blood on your shirt. It is

not mine. Scotland's future is now in

Scotland's hands. There is nothing new in it, nothing published today

that they could not have told us about yesterday.

Never, never, and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will

again experience the oppression of one by another. The sun sun never

shed -- the sun shall never set on so glorious and achievement.

I said, what news? So she told me that her daughter had phoned from

London to alert her to the fact that I had got this prize.

Good evening. Helicopter has crashed into the sea off Shetland. -- a

helicopter. This is clearly anti-British and NT

-- and anti-English. They hate the union Jack, so...

We will freeze gas and electricity prices until the start of 2017.

Regrettably, that will mean 835 job losses across Filton, the Clyde and

Rosyth and the closure of the company's shipbuilding yard in

Portsmouth. So, let's chew over 2013 with our

political commentators. Alf Young is still here with the Sunday Times

columnist Gillian Bowditch, and we're also joined by the former

political editor of the Herald, Murray Ritchie. Let's start with

you, money. What was your big story of 2013? What resonated with you? It

is the white paper. The huge document. When you get to my age,

you can barely lift it up. It is enormous and there is so much

reading in it. I naively thought that when it was brought out with

great fanfare, there would be a jump in the polls for the yes campaign.

There was a very small, tiny jump. When you think about it, it will

take months to the dad thing. The debate will take many months for all

the various points in that enormous document to sink into the public

understanding. It will have to be long discussion about it. I would

think the yes campaign will be looking for a little lift, but I

think they were maybe expecting it to sin. I think it will come for

them. Politically, it is probably the biggest expected thing this

year. Didn't live up to expectations? -- did it live up to

expectations? It surprised me. I expected a much more visionary

document that would try and sell the whole case in words that people

would immediately engage with in a direct way. Facing them with 600

adored pages -- 600-odd pages of dense stuff... I would have thought

the number who will sit down and make their way through it will be

tiny. There was talk of getting Sir William McIlvanney to write a more

nuanced, flourishing kind of prose. It is not like that, the bits I have

read, anyway. It is the kind of stuff you expect from civil servants

at the end of the day. I just wonder whether that a striking the right

note for a campaign that is behind and has to get in front. Now,

there's 9-10 months to do it. How'd you look at the way the independence

debate has progressed? It as the long, occasionally coming to the

boil, but no big peaks troughs. It hasn't been edifying. It has been

difficult for the will to engage with it. The white paper was the

clearly to answer a lot of questions that the Better Together campaign

had been firing. It probably stemmed from that. It needed to show there

was something weighty beer. It was a document by committee. One civil

servant said she had seen four paragraphs before it went out.

Everyone was able to see a tiny bit, but they didn't see it all. It could

have done with a good edit. It needed something visionary and we

did not have that. It was a weighty document. In terms of the

independence campaign, the highlight was probably Nicolai giving a big --

was probably Nicola Sturgeon giving a bashing to have the debate. Let's

that is better in 2014. What do you make of the debate over the course

of the year? Has it reached your expectations? Not really. There is

an impasse. The interesting thing, and you might disagree, but I think

one of the interesting things is where the Labour vote in Scotland

goes. In our days on the Herald, for 30 years, we had an opinion poll

which tracks Scottish public opinion for all that time every month. It

was very valuable. It fell victim to cuts, unfortunately. One of the

interesting things about that was that the Labour Party pointed out to

me at the time, valid to their discomfort, that up to 45%, and

certainly up to 30-40%, their voters were happy with independence. They

did not campaign for that come to the SNP, still voted Labour, but

they were intrigued by the thought of Scotland being independent. Where

are those people now? The left wing of the Labour Party as it is now is

in favour of independence, but they few nowadays. The rest of it is the

Jim Murphy type of attitude, just have nothing to do with it. I think

once the Labour vote, once we begin to understand that, there could be

significant in that and we will see where it goes. The yes campaign

wanted to come over. You pick up on that point, because the undecideds

are going to be a major feature in 2014. The add-in to 12-17%. -- the

air around 17%. It is shrinking. It is still a big gap between now and

yes in the mainstream. In terms of what he was just saying, I think the

most interesting bit was what we could call the radical left. Whether

it is green politics or a kind of left redistributed politics which is

out with the main parties altogether. They have been filling

conference halls and having great beats but they are a tiny, tiny

segment of overall opinion in the country. Although that is well be

interesting, exciting stuff is happening, it will not affect the

overall result in a country with a country where the Green candidate in

two of the by-elections which you mentioned in your list of the

highlights got half the vote of UKIP. Gillian, this has been a year

where we have had so many debates about the referendum, but we have

not actually had an election this year, which is unusual. Next year,

we have the European one, 2015 as the general election. There is no

posturing around election campaign, but we will have that for the

European one in 2014. That's right. There is no shortage of elections

now. We have a lot of different strategies of our democracy.

Politicians calls come out in force for an election and will be the same

without direct -- it will be the same for the referendum. It'll do

not engage until after the Commonwealth Games next summer. I'm

sure some of them are keeping their powder dry. It is a very long

campaign and we have not had a referendum like this. Difficult to

pace themselves. Once they see the finish line, they will start to

galvanise. Was there anything in 2013 that took you by surprise? It

is quite interesting when you think back of Eric Joyce getting into a

fight in the House of Commons, being deselected, the Falkirk and Labour

selection row, that ended up in the huge Grangemouth dispute. That was

quite surprising thing this year. It was horrible, actually. It was a

nationally thing -- it was a nasty thing. It was a lesson in how trade

unions should not behave. It does not work any more. The employer they

were dealing with is a hard man with a lot of experience in getting rid

of people. They picked the wrong battle ground and the wrong type of

fight. But he came out of it with something. In fairness, they were

provoked by the management in Grangemouth. As far as the Falkirk

thing is concerned, you know, we still do not know what happened

there. We have not been given a full account of all the mischief that

went on the behind-the-scenes. We do not know what happened. That stinks

of cover-up. That can be very dangerous for a party defending a

seat like that will stop it will be very difficult for Labour to defend

it, but we will see. What you make of the Grangemouth story? It really

shook Scotland. It certainly took me back. In my advanced years, having

spent more years than I care to say in front of factory gates as

factories were shut down across Scotland, I was dragged by the BBC

One morning at around seven o'clock on a morning to a rather draughty

van sitting outside the gates. Suddenly, all hell broke loose

because Len McCluskey arrived and there was a good old-fashioned media

scrum as he went into the gates. I ended up doing about six interviews

in the space of two days, which was ridiculous. It was a reminder of

these big... You know, how to be placed so much of a sense of who we

are is a country in the old industries? The big petrochemical

plants or indeed the row generation of Royal navy frigates, the Clyde

Portsmouth someone else. We invest so much in those but so much is

gone. The bits that have left -- bits have been left have struggled.

There was someone on saying that this country is so expensive in

energy terms that they cannot run stuff like this in this country. The

places to go and America the Far East. Having said that, he is

bringing gas into Grangemouth and giving it a new kind of future doing

that. It is complicated, difficult stuff, but money is right. The

unions have not stayed up with the pace and played the game. And they

have got caught out. Gillian, looking back there, two major

characters of the 20th century, Margaret Thatcher and Nelson Mandela

passed away in 2013. Yes, two big political figures who dominated

politics in the 1980s and early 1990s. Difficult to compare the two.

Nelson Mandela was an international statesman and we have just seen his

funeral and the kind of acclaim he got. Margaret Thatcher, more mixed

emotions, I think, certainly in Scotland, all for her passing. It

was an opportunity for people to reassess some of the decisions she

made and to look at, you know, possibly how blame has been unfairly

apportioned the in some circumstances and to have a little

bit more distance and think about our history in a more rational way.

It was a real time for looking at legacies, wasn't it? I would like to

go to Robben Island. I try to go when he was still there. They would

not let me see him. I went to the liberal anti-apartheid campaigner,

who was a great woman who was alleged to see him. She said the

thing that struck about Mandela was his determination not to give in to

him. They were offering allsorts of deals to him and saying that if you

concede or compromise on this, we will let you out. He knew that the

way he was carrying on with his lack of negotiations was making the

apartheid Government in South Africa his prisoner. He was a phenomenal

politician. A really remarkable man. That was hard abiding memory of

him, just before he was released. He knew he was winning. You want to

comment on that? I was struck by, in terms of funerals, because you have

posed Thatcher and Mandela. Thatcher's funeral was a very sombre

and state like affair. I watched bits at home. The Mandela funeral,

and you have that widely distributed picture of Obama and Cameron almost

as if it was a celebrity event. The tone and nature of each of the

farewells was entirely different, it even at the level of heads of state,

major powers. It is extraordinary. We're almost out of time. A funny

moment of 2013? It was very sad, looking at the documentary. I'm

Professor Higgs in the Nobel Prize. A great story emanating from

Scotland and a man who had an idea with simple national --

international obligations. That was a great story for me. Your best

moment for 2013? I don't have another best moment, I don't think.

Andy Murray for. He gave me an attack, but I survived. Thank you

for joining us. That is all for most today and for 2013, as MSPs go off

on holiday tomorrow. We'll be back on air in the new year for a very

busy 2014. Until then, merry Christmas and enjoy the festive

season. Goodbye.