26/04/2017 Politics Scotland


26/04/2017

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Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.

:00:18.:00:20.

Holyrood's Health and Sport Committee have accused the SFA

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MSPs say their child protection policy is not working properly.

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And here at Westminster, the final Prime Minister's Questions

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before the election, as MPs well and truly put themselves

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Now, there are a mere 43 days until the election on June 8th -

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the Commons will wind down this week, ahead of six

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To chew over this and other topics of the day, Kevin McKenna is here.

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But first, here's a flavour of the last Prime Minister's

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Questions before the country goes to the polls.

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There were heated exchanges between the Prime Minister

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and the Labour leader, with Theresa May suggesting

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Mr Corbyn wasn't fit for leadership, and Jeremy Corbyn accusing

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the Conservatives of being a government for the few.

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I did note that the Shadow Home Secretary has been campaigning in

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her own personal way, directing her supporters to a website, I Like

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Corbyn, But... It says, how will he pay for all this? I heard he wants

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to increase taxes. But... I heard he's a terrorist sympathiser. But...

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Is attitudes about defence worry me. They are right to be worried. Unable

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to defend our country, determined to raise tax on ordinary workers, no

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plan to manage our economy. Even his own supporters know he's not fit to

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run this country. Mr Speaker, my question was about the National

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Health Service. Strong leadership is about standing up for the many, not

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the few. But when it comes to the Prime Minister and the

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Conservatives, they only look after the richest, not the rest. They are

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strong against the weak and weak against the strong. Far from

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building a strong economy, schools and our NHS are being cut, people

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can't afford homes, millions can't make ends meet. That doesn't add up

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to a stronger economy for anyone. Mr Speaker, the election is a choice

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between a Conservative... Between a Conservative government for the few

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and a Labour government that will stand up for ALL of our people. I

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asked the Prime Minister a pretty simple question, yes or no. And the

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Prime Minister failed to answer. So, pensioners right across this land

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are right to conclude that this Tory Prime Minister plans to ditch the

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triple lock on the state pension. Mr Speaker, too many women already face

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pensions inequality, and the Tories now won't even guarantee the

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pensions triple lock. And the only reason that they will not guarantee

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it is because they want to cut pensions. Is not the message to

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pensioners, you cannot trust this Prime Minister, you cannot trust the

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Tories on your pension? I say to everybody, as I've just said, if you

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want to know the party of government that has improved the lot of

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pensioners across this country, it is the Conservative Party. And under

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a Conservative element, those pensioner income is would continue

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to increase. And he talks about inequality for women. It's the

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change in the structure of the state pension introduced by this

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government that is going to improve the lot of female pensioners in the

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future, that is going to be much better for them. But one thing that

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pensioners in Scotland will no, as other voters in Scotland will know,

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is that if they believe in the union, there's only one way to vote,

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and that's to vote Conservative. In the nine months at the Prime

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Minister has held her office, she has closed the door on desperate

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child refugees, she has ignored the plight of those suffering under the

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crisis in health and social care, and she is responsible for the

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shameful break clause. 20 years ago, she berated the Conservative Party

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for being a nasty party. Her party has never been nastier. But the

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legacy of this Parliament... The right honourable gentleman must be

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heard! The legacy of this Parliament is the utter abject failure of Her

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Majesty's official opposition to effectively hold our government to

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account for any of this. Is it not time that Britain had a strong,

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decent, new opposition? Prime Minister! Let me pick up on the

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point he made about child refugees. This government has a proud record

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on supporting refugees from Syria. We have been the second biggest

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financial donor to the region, in order to support millions of

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refugees and educate children, as I saw when I visited Jordan recently.

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And of course, we have also supported some of the most

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vulnerable refugees, including children, in bringing them here to

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make a new life in the United Kingdom. Talks about a decent

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opposition. I find it difficult to hear those words coming from his

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mouth, given that his party has selected a candidate...

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Well, let's head across to Westminster, with David Porter.

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Just as you came to me, it started to shower. No comments about one

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shower talking in another show! We will leave that! At the final PMQs

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of this Parliament, and it was a marathon session, it went on for the

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best part of an hour. As you would expect in the last one before an

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election, there was perhaps not an awful lot of political policy but

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there was an awful lot of rhetoric. It basically turned into a political

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rally more than a political occasion. I think we got some

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indication from all of the parties of the themes that they will want to

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pursue. Was there anything new, David, at all? Angus Robertson, he

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didn't really get an answer on his triple lock bastion, did he? No, he

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didn't, and that's what struck me out of the whole 50 minutes or so.

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He put a question to Theresa May about the so-called triple lock on

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pensions, that's a rise of 2.5%, or the rise in inflation or earnings,

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whichever is greater, and quite frankly, she sidestepped that

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question and did not give a commit and on it. And in political terms,

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that was probably the most significant thing which came out of

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the 50 minutes or so. My apologies, we will leave you, it looks like

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they'll now! It is, it is hail! Jeremy Corbyn, did he get anywhere?

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He really wanted to focus on a number of issues. He went back to

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his tactic of reading out questions that people had sent to him about

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the Health Service, about their earnings, housing and education. But

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quite frankly, he was not going to get Theresa May to give her

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Conservative manifesto before she's ready. Cover up and we will see you

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before the end of the programme! Joining me in the studio

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today is the political Are you infused about any of this? I

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am kind of in the media bubble, so, of course! Airing ideas that we

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should all care about, what is not to like? What have you made of it so

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far? Let me ask you this - do you think the things of this election

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are really going to be what the pundits are saying? Everyone saying

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it's going to be about Brexit and independence, is it really going to

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be about either of these things? No. Clearly, Jeremy Corbyn is trying to

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shift the debate, we saw this in Westminster today, onto the

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traditional areas that he is more comfortable with and which once upon

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a time the Labour Party were more comfortable with - representing the

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many rather than the few, standing up for poor, disadvantaged

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communities against a hard right government rich wants to, as he

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said, represent if you instead of the many. And there wasn't much talk

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of Brexit. Do you think that he's done...? Keir Starmer yesterday

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outlined their policy on Brexit, and people are saying, intellectually it

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might be fine, but politically, it is not clear enough to answer

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questions like, are you in favour of staying in the single market, Labour

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Party? I thought Keir Starmer yesterday was pretty clear. I know

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there had been some criticism of Labour before it on their Brexit

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strategy. But it was only a few weeks ago that they said it wanted

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to adhere to the democratic will of the people, as expressed in June

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last year. They then criticised Theresa May for the sort of hard

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Brexit deal that she appeared to be moving towards. And now, at the

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start of the general election, they have their alternative strategy,

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which is including things like giving leave to European immigrants

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to stay, which was a big issue... My point is, if you then say to Labour,

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are you in favour of staying in the single market? I'm still not

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entirely clear what their answer would be? I'm not, either.

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Personally, I would have liked to have seen them go a little bit more

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gung ho. Sorry to cut you off, we will be back with you. For David

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Porter's own protection, he has now got a raincoat on! Let's let him

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speak to some MPs before Armageddon comes! Thank you very much. Let me

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introduce you to my guests, representing the SNP, the Liberal

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Democrats Labour and the Conservatives. It was a question

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from Angus Robertson of the SNP about guaranteeing the triple lock

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on pensions, and Louisa May sidestepped it. Is this the

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Conservatives preparing for the great British public for the lack of

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the triple lock on pensions? We will have to wait until the manifesto

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comes out. Over the last seven years, the Conservatives have done a

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lot for pensioners. The basic pension has gone up, increasing the

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standard of living for pensioners right across the country. It has to

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be about islands across the generations, and that's the

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important thing that we will be talking about in the election. --

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has to be about Allens across the generations. -- has to be about

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balance. Is it true that they have actually done pretty well,

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pensioners, over the last seven years? Yes, but they needed to. It

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was deliberate was introduced by the coalition to protect pensioners, and

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also to help catch up from the years when pensions did not keep pace with

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earnings or inflation. I don't think that bore itself out. In fact the

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tax threshold is now lower than it is for people below pensionable age.

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So actually, it's moving against pensioners now. Abandoning the

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triple lock would be a very ad signal, frankly, and I think it

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should at least stay until 2020. There is not much which could unite

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you and the SNP, but both of you believe the triple lock should stay

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- what would you say to those youngsters who say, pensioners have

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had it good, we are struggling to get by, the hats it is time that the

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younger segment of society should have a bigger share of the cake? I

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would have to wait, as you rightly say, for our manifesto to come out.

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I can guarantee you, on behalf of the Labour Party, that when a Labour

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government is elected, we will keep the triple lock. And since this is a

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fight between the Tories and ourselves, no-one else can form a

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government in Westminster, in fact Deirdre's leader is not even

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standing for Westminster, then the only way for tension is to ensure

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they get the triple lock is to vote Labour. As far as younger people are

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concerned, we are the party that introduced child tax credit and

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family tax credit, which have been a huge help for younger people. So,

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you are agreeing with Labour on this one? I think George's suggestion

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that we're going to be in government is pretty fanciful. Frankly, the way

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things are going at the moment for Labour, it's just not going to

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happen. We have had the work done by Ian Blackford, showing everyone, we

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are very concerned about pensions in Westminster and we will be fighting

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really hard for the triple lock to be maintained. But Mhairi Black was

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on the committee which recommended the triple lock should be abandoned.

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George Chaloner I don't understand! John, it seems pretty obvious from

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what your leader is saying that she wants this to be an election purely

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and simply about briefings, about Brexit and leadership? It's

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certainly about leadership, and at the end of the day, this country

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will have a choice between Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as Prime

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Minister. It is also about economic competence, who do you think can run

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this country and its economy properly? We have started to see a

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little bit of the flavour of the coalition of chaos which would

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ensure, should Jeremy Corbyn have to end up in a coalition with my

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colleague standing beside me. So I think it is a very, very

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straightforward choice. Theresa May, strong, stable Prime Minister,

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strong majority, leading this country... This is the strongly do

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ship that got the country in the mess it is in, lost the Prime

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Minister, lost the referendum, and is now having a general election. In

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Scotland, the majority of people don't want independence, they want

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to stay in the UK. The majority of people don't want to leave the EU

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come of it wants to stay. The only party that offers them that is the

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Labatts. The Liberal Democrats are offering the best choice for those

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people. All the opinion polls would indicate that people may support

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some of Jeremy Corbyn's policies, but they don't see him as a

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potential Prime Minister? I would have thought even you would have

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understood that opinion polls are not to be relied on any more. What

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really worries me is, I can understand why John Stephenson is

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saying, this is what is going to be the outcome of the election. But I

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am surprised at Deirdre. We've still got nearly six weeks to go, and

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people have got to make up their minds. With got Theresa May frighten

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to go out and meet the people, and journey Corbyn, who is meeting

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thousands of them, and the more they see him and get to know him, the

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more they like him and we'll see him as a caring, compassionate Prime

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Minister, instead of the hardness that we're getting from the reason

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may. That sounds lovely, George, but think the news has just come out of

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that if Mrs May is not taking part in the TV debates, he won't, either.

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This is the politics of the kindergarten. The people have the

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right to hear the policies of the leaders and get the chance to vote

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accordingly. Neither of the leaders I a patch on Nicola Sturgeon, and

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Angus Robertson also showed real leadership today when he skewered

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the Prime Minister about the triple lock. You have taken my question

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about the TV debates. John Stevenson, should there be a TV

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debate with the four leaders who are seeking to be represented at This

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Place after the election? I actually think it should be down to the two,

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Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, which is what this election is really

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about. In terms of debate, Theresa May will meet people as she goes up

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and down the country. There will be debates in the regular places. And

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I'm sure there will be interviews with people like yourself. So there

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will be plenty of opportunity to see what Theresa May is bring this

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country, and it is quite clear that she is offering stability and strong

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leadership, something the Labour Party... I think she wants a 1-party

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state. She has talked about saboteurs, anybody against her is an

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enemy of the state, enemy of democracy. She is dangerous for the

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country. That's why thousands of people are joining the Liberal

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Democrats every day, and that's why people are recognising that the only

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UK and stop a hard Brexit is to vote Liberal Democrat. And people will do

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it in numbers. Your leader now says he doesn't want to go into a certain

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type of TV debate, you in favour of them? Yes, I am strongly in favour

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of them. You in the media pushed David Cameron into it and I think

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you should do that again with Theresa May and have all the leaders

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there. This is an important election, people need to know what

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each of the parties is standing for. I think that's Theresa May is afraid

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because she knows that once her record is under scrutiny, she's

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going to go down and down and down. I agree with you there, George! If

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you want a TV debate, who should take part in it, should it be your

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leader, or should it be good? It has not been decided yet. But what is

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clear is that Theresa May is running scared of any kind of challenge to

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the policies that she is promoting. It is really quite frightening

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watching her hold rallies, when nobody is allowed to ask questions.

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She doesn't hold press conferences. She's just running away and backing

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away and running scared. All of you, thank you very much. Gordon, we have

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heard an awful lot and we will hear an awful lot more about the

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coalition of chaos. We this afternoon have had the coalition of

:20:17.:20:23.

the brollies. And they will all say to you that sun shines on the

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righteous! I will never make jibes about the weather in London again!

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Well, not until next week! The Scottish FA says it refutes

:20:31.:20:36.

allegations that it has been complacent in regard

:20:37.:20:38.

to its child protection procedures. A report by Holyrood's Health

:20:39.:20:40.

and Sport Committee says the governing body needs to do more

:20:41.:20:42.

to make sure youth coaches Our senior football reporter

:20:43.:20:45.

Chris McLaughlin joins us live. Chris, remind us of

:20:46.:20:49.

the background to this. Well, the committee,

:20:50.:20:52.

chaired by MSP Neil Findlay, has been taking evidence for months

:20:53.:20:56.

from senior figures It follows a BBC Scotland

:20:57.:21:00.

investigation that uncovered a shortfall in youth coaches

:21:01.:21:07.

who have the full background checks. The final report is fairly damning,

:21:08.:21:11.

especially in relation to football. It says the Scottish Youth Football

:21:12.:21:14.

Association misled members over just It said the Scottish FA

:21:15.:21:17.

was ultimately responsible Today, the SFA said this

:21:18.:21:21.

was an issue for the SYFA. Now, as I said earlier,

:21:22.:21:27.

this is not just a football issue. Our investigation at the start

:21:28.:21:54.

of the year highlighted issues and shortfalls

:21:55.:21:59.

with many other sports. The committee bis keen for more

:22:00.:22:06.

to be done across the board. Football authorities, sporting

:22:07.:22:15.

authorities across the board, and government, need to address the key

:22:16.:22:18.

points that have been raised in our report. We won't just hand the

:22:19.:22:22.

report over and that will be the end of attrition will be looking for

:22:23.:22:27.

reports back from the various organisations on how they are

:22:28.:22:29.

addressing the recommendations that we have put forward.

:22:30.:22:32.

They say, in their view, the current system is simply not working.

:22:33.:22:37.

The Scottish Government say a review is under way.

:22:38.:22:41.

Meaning what? As far as they are concerned, the review is under way.

:22:42.:22:52.

They're hoping to tighten things in 2019.

:22:53.:22:53.

The committee say it should be done sooner.

:22:54.:22:55.

One of the recommendations is that these checks become mandatory.

:22:56.:22:58.

At the moment, it's simply an avenue open to sports

:22:59.:23:03.

organisations, although Sport Scotland insist on it.

:23:04.:23:08.

What do you think of this whole situation? What was revealed by mark

:23:09.:23:22.

daily's report on the BBC earlier this month was something that many

:23:23.:23:27.

of us who are for all supporters and who participated in tension

:23:28.:23:32.

football, junior football, felt was inevitable. I find it frankly

:23:33.:23:39.

astonishing that there isn't any mandatory measures in place. I find

:23:40.:23:44.

it almost as astonishing as the SFA, as we saw there, completely dodging

:23:45.:23:53.

their responsibility by blaming the Scottish Youth Football Association.

:23:54.:23:57.

It is not just aiming the Scottish Youth Football Association, it's the

:23:58.:24:01.

tone of it, saying that these are simply Neil Findlay's personal

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opinions, by saying, you should know about devolution, you are in the

:24:06.:24:08.

Scottish Parliament. The whole tone of it, it is not just dismissive, it

:24:09.:24:14.

is almost hostile? It is completely irresponsible and it fails

:24:15.:24:20.

deliberately to acknowledge and recognise the special place that the

:24:21.:24:24.

game of football has in Scotland, and it's unique and ongoing and

:24:25.:24:28.

everlasting attraction to especially, not exclusively but

:24:29.:24:33.

especially, working-class children, the desperation of parents and

:24:34.:24:37.

families for their children, cousins, friends, schoolmates, to

:24:38.:24:42.

get again, to get on, to be signed for the big clubs in Scotland all

:24:43.:24:48.

applaud. This, to them, for generations, has been a way of being

:24:49.:24:52.

lifted out of poverty and making something of themselves. -- or

:24:53.:24:56.

abroad. Given everything that has happened in the past we've decades

:24:57.:25:01.

now, I would imagine a lot of parents might be quite surprised to

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know that there are no mandatory checks on football coaches at youth

:25:06.:25:13.

level? Yeah. The sport at that level, let's be frank here, attracts

:25:14.:25:21.

a certain type of individual, who may have predatory instincts towards

:25:22.:25:28.

relationships with young people. And for generations, football clubs have

:25:29.:25:35.

allowed an assortment of these characters, both high and low, to

:25:36.:25:42.

walk in, have unfettered access to, let's face it, vulnerable children

:25:43.:25:49.

at the age of ten, 11, 12, 13. As Mark, in his investigation earlier

:25:50.:25:54.

this month showed, or at the very least hinted at, there were several

:25:55.:26:03.

instances where there had been whistle-blowing, and they weren't

:26:04.:26:08.

properly at the pond. This affected the top clubs in Scotland as well as

:26:09.:26:13.

in the UK. In fact, although Mark Daly didn't actually say it, it all

:26:14.:26:20.

pointed towards a ring of adults who were exchanging contact... One final

:26:21.:26:24.

point, does the tenor of that statement give you much confidence?

:26:25.:26:28.

No. And I would expect that the Scottish Government might actually

:26:29.:26:34.

want to invite the SFA to enlarge upon those comments. Kevin, we will

:26:35.:26:36.

be back with you later on. Now, Controversial plans to shut

:26:37.:26:40.

Jobcentre Plus offices in Glasgow would not provide an adequate

:26:41.:26:42.

service, according The Scottish Affairs Committee said

:26:43.:26:44.

the proposals "showed Committee chair Pete Wishart told us

:26:45.:26:49.

the service should be We have very vulnerable users who

:26:50.:27:02.

need to access these services. In this crazy structural

:27:03.:27:04.

reorganisation, some people will have to travel for hours in order to

:27:05.:27:07.

access services, and some of these are amongst the most vulnerable

:27:08.:27:11.

members of society. We should be making services easier for people to

:27:12.:27:13.

access, not more difficult. Now, the Department for Work

:27:14.:27:17.

and Pensions announced in December that eight of the 16 offices

:27:18.:27:20.

in Glasgow were to be closed. It said 80% of job-seeker's

:27:21.:27:23.

Allowance claims Ian Pope of the Public

:27:24.:27:24.

and Commercial Services Union says that not everyone has access

:27:25.:27:28.

to the internet. The department are now encouraging

:27:29.:27:36.

benefit claimants to go online more. I think the figure was seven out of

:27:37.:27:40.

ten claimants in poor areas of Glasgow have no access to computers

:27:41.:27:46.

and digital technology. Until that happens, that argument does not add

:27:47.:27:47.

up. Well, let's have a look at how

:27:48.:27:52.

local employment services Dr Jim McCormick is the Scotland

:27:53.:27:54.

Director of the Joseph Now your organisation has

:27:55.:28:01.

been reviewing how local services can be improved,

:28:02.:28:04.

what could Jobcentres do better? Is it the fact of how many have

:28:05.:28:10.

closed, or is it the fact of what they are therefore in the first

:28:11.:28:14.

place? The job of the implement serviced should be to help people

:28:15.:28:17.

get into jobs and then progress into better paying jobs. How we go about

:28:18.:28:23.

that, here is an opportunity to rethink that. In Glasgow and other

:28:24.:28:27.

parts of Scotland, what matters is that we make it as easy as possible

:28:28.:28:31.

to access high quality guidance. Not just having a digital way of

:28:32.:28:35.

accessing benefit claims. And that might mean we need to keep open some

:28:36.:28:39.

of these Jobcentres, it might mean that we should be working work

:28:40.:28:44.

coaches alongside housing offices or local governor to offices. The last

:28:45.:28:47.

thing we should be doing probably would be centralising, and making it

:28:48.:28:51.

harder for people to access the advice and guidance that they need.

:28:52.:28:56.

But do these Jobcentres, to put it bluntly, actually find people jobs?

:28:57.:29:01.

The outcomes are variable. What is quite interesting is, the people who

:29:02.:29:07.

are required to turn up at a Jobcentre as a condition of getting

:29:08.:29:15.

benefit, that is changing. We have more people with limited English. In

:29:16.:29:20.

future, more people who are in work will be expected to increase their

:29:21.:29:23.

hours and earnings. So that changes the nature of what the employment

:29:24.:29:27.

centre is there to do. I think it means that we have to get better at

:29:28.:29:33.

co-locating at places where people naturally go to, rather than trying

:29:34.:29:40.

to... What sort of places? It would be housing offices, local governor

:29:41.:29:44.

offices... I just wonder if there is a case for, you know, there is an

:29:45.:29:52.

increasing problem of people being outside the Labour market, and lots

:29:53.:29:59.

of people in certain areas of Scotland, sometimes generations, who

:30:00.:30:02.

have not had a job. If you want to intervene in that, and it was

:30:03.:30:07.

interesting what you said about coaching, you would have to possibly

:30:08.:30:13.

spend a lot of money, but almost mentor people into getting a job,

:30:14.:30:16.

rather than turning up at an office to get one? For the bulk of people

:30:17.:30:22.

who are on GSA in Scotland, within 6-1 I'm months, the majority will be

:30:23.:30:25.

back in work. But it is the others... -- within 6-9 months.

:30:26.:30:38.

Coaching I think requires an element of face-to-face support. But not

:30:39.:30:45.

necessarily in a job office? The issue is, how do we make it as

:30:46.:30:51.

accessible as possible. And we are currently supporting some work in

:30:52.:30:55.

Parkhead in Glasgow which looks at what happens when you wrap around

:30:56.:31:01.

work coaches, GPs' surgeries, money advice, if you can stabilise

:31:02.:31:05.

people's financial situation, make it possible for them to think about

:31:06.:31:09.

realistically getting into work, or how to improve their skills, you get

:31:10.:31:15.

much better outcomes. So, we should be decentralising support, making it

:31:16.:31:20.

more face-to-face... Point you were making about it being a condition of

:31:21.:31:25.

benefit, surely in this day and age, it should be easy enough digitally,

:31:26.:31:30.

so, let's take your example, you have a GPs' surgery which is

:31:31.:31:33.

combining all of these things, or something next door to a GPs'

:31:34.:31:37.

surgery, some digital way of saying, that counts, for example?

:31:38.:31:43.

What coaches have quite a hard job to do but also quite a lot of

:31:44.:31:47.

discretion, so these things can happen already, it varies, if you

:31:48.:31:51.

look at the sanction reigns Donna Grits a couple of years in Scotland

:31:52.:31:56.

the rates in sanctions shows you how important the local culture is in

:31:57.:31:59.

job centres. What really matters here is we have a focus on the

:32:00.:32:05.

outcomes, getting more people into work, reducing barriers. We may have

:32:06.:32:08.

to help people into voluntary work as a first step where it is

:32:09.:32:13.

appropriate and with fluctuating conditions, for example. Not

:32:14.:32:16.

forgetting people in low paid jobs needing to increase their hours or

:32:17.:32:19.

improve skills. The job is getting harder for the employment service

:32:20.:32:22.

and we need to get more sophisticated as to how we deliver

:32:23.:32:26.

it locally. From what you were saying, how many job centres they

:32:27.:32:30.

are and where they are is actually secondary to perhaps a more

:32:31.:32:33.

imaginative way of doing these things, which is what you seem to be

:32:34.:32:37.

suggesting. I think there is an opportunity with the election to

:32:38.:32:40.

press pause on these ideas, to longer term and think about what's

:32:41.:32:44.

the best way to deliver a really important service in lots of

:32:45.:32:49.

different parts of the country. We will still need physical job

:32:50.:32:50.

centres, but whether those are shared with other public services is

:32:51.:32:56.

up for grabs. I think we should go further in that direction. What is

:32:57.:32:59.

important is people have face to face advice as well as the support

:33:00.:33:03.

if they can use it at the right time. Thank you very much indeed.

:33:04.:33:07.

MSPs have voted to condemn the changes to child tax credits.

:33:08.:33:10.

They're calling for the UK Government to remove

:33:11.:33:12.

the two-child cap and scrap the so-called rape clause.

:33:13.:33:14.

In a debate at Holyrood yesterday, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

:33:15.:33:17.

described the exemption as "abhorrent".

:33:18.:33:22.

But the Conservatives said Nicola Sturgeon had the power

:33:23.:33:24.

I think, while I oppose many of these benefit cuts, I think this one

:33:25.:33:33.

in particular and the rape clause that flows from it is definitely

:33:34.:33:37.

going too far in the wrong direction. But it is the sort of

:33:38.:33:41.

policy we have come to expect from this government. But the

:33:42.:33:45.

implications of this policy, as the rape clause so vividly illustrates,

:33:46.:33:51.

are truly apparent. The very need to provide an exemption from the two

:33:52.:33:55.

child cap for women who have been raped shows the callousness of these

:33:56.:33:59.

cuts in the first place. No woman anywhere should have to prove that

:34:00.:34:03.

she has been raped in order to get tax credits for her child. And I

:34:04.:34:10.

can't believe that in 2017 I am having to stand up in the Scottish

:34:11.:34:13.

Parliament and make that argument. APPLAUSE

:34:14.:34:22.

But this policy isn't just immoral, although it definitely is, it's also

:34:23.:34:29.

unworkable in practice. The proposal for third-party verification puts an

:34:30.:34:33.

unacceptable burden on health workers, crisis centres and

:34:34.:34:39.

officials from the Department for Work and Pensions. Rape Crisis

:34:40.:34:42.

Scotland, Scotland's women's aid and many others have refused to collude

:34:43.:34:46.

with this clause, quite rightly. That is one of the reasons why

:34:47.:34:51.

although it has passed into law, no one in the UK Government is able to

:34:52.:34:55.

explain how it will work in practice. I'm sorry to say that on

:34:56.:34:58.

this issue to many people have not been clear with the facts. I've

:34:59.:35:03.

heard members of this chamber say on television that women must complete

:35:04.:35:06.

an eight page form in order to receive this exemption, and this is

:35:07.:35:12.

simply not correct. The third-party professionals... SPEAKER: Order

:35:13.:35:21.

force of the member is not taking interventions. Ms Davidson.

:35:22.:35:28.

It is important that we are not wilfully misrepresenting the process

:35:29.:35:32.

here causing fear and alarm. So let me outline this again. Let me

:35:33.:35:37.

outline it to the chamber once again. The woman writes her name and

:35:38.:35:42.

a third-party professional who is helping the mother is asked to set

:35:43.:35:45.

up the rest and this third-party model already exists in the benefit

:35:46.:35:51.

system to support victims of domestic violence.

:35:52.:35:53.

Powers over welfare and the taxation to pay for decisions were demanded

:35:54.:35:58.

and transferred precisely so that devolved Scottish governments could

:35:59.:36:04.

make different choices. For my own part I will continue to

:36:05.:36:07.

monitor the way in which this works on the ground.

:36:08.:36:12.

And the First Minister and her ministers use strong words like

:36:13.:36:16.

shameful and she has the power to act and if she chooses strong words

:36:17.:36:19.

but chooses not to act then that would indeed be shameful.

:36:20.:36:23.

So we will continue to monitor this and I will move the amendment that

:36:24.:36:28.

is in my name. For ten years the Tory government at Westminster has

:36:29.:36:32.

slashed our valued social security system in a deliberate act of

:36:33.:36:36.

sabotage and the question I would put it Ruth Davidson, if she had

:36:37.:36:40.

bothered to take any interventions, is a question of judgment. Tell us

:36:41.:36:43.

why rape victims have to pay the price of the deficit while you give

:36:44.:36:46.

tax cuts to the richest people in our society. Ruth Davidson in a

:36:47.:36:54.

desperate defence of the indefensible asks that we look at

:36:55.:37:02.

welfare reform in the round. Let's, of the ?26 billion of cuts that

:37:03.:37:07.

would have been implement it between 2010 and 2020, 80 6% will have been

:37:08.:37:11.

taken from women's incomes. That's the context in which we debate this

:37:12.:37:17.

today. A policy necessity whereby women must actively prove to an

:37:18.:37:20.

employee of the state or a third-party that they been raped,

:37:21.:37:24.

such policy has no place in civilised society.

:37:25.:37:26.

Well let's cross to Holyrood now where I'm joined by some MSPs.

:37:27.:37:33.

This week we have Jenny Gilruth from the SNP,

:37:34.:37:35.

Bryan Waddle for the Scottish Conservatives.

:37:36.:37:42.

it's Daniel Johnson, for the Scottish Greens we're joined

:37:43.:37:46.

by Ross Greer and Alex Cole-Hamilton is from the Scottish Lib Dems.

:37:47.:37:49.

When I talked to Jackson Carlo about this at the weekend he defended this

:37:50.:37:57.

policy on two children but said the rape clause was, as he described it,

:37:58.:38:01.

awkward. If it's that awkward why and you either say as the Scottish

:38:02.:38:04.

Conservatives that you want the policy reversed and you want the cap

:38:05.:38:09.

abolished, and start lobbying Theresa May's government to do that?

:38:10.:38:14.

There is a genuine debate to be had here and a genuine debate around

:38:15.:38:18.

Child tax credit is one that should be had in the Parliament and union

:38:19.:38:22.

yesterday's debate detracted from that. What disappoints me is the

:38:23.:38:29.

comment has been called a rape clause, it is not a rape clause,

:38:30.:38:33.

it's an exemption clause. By approaching it in this way the way

:38:34.:38:36.

the chamber did yesterday was a detraction from what should be a

:38:37.:38:39.

proper debate and a real debate that should be had. You are not answering

:38:40.:38:47.

my fundamental point. Any policy, no matter how justifiable otherwise,

:38:48.:38:50.

which ends up requiring the sort of tests for women who have been raped,

:38:51.:38:54.

is a very bad policy that no one should have come up with place.

:38:55.:38:59.

Again, I will say to you, there is a debate to be had here around and

:39:00.:39:03.

Limitation of a policy. But I still come back to the fact that there is

:39:04.:39:06.

a debate to be had around tax credit. There are two polarised

:39:07.:39:13.

views. You can go from anywhere from nothing to everyone. That debate

:39:14.:39:16.

should be had. If we are going to have a debate around how it isn't

:39:17.:39:19.

limited, if we are going to debate how we are going to implement it

:39:20.:39:23.

with women who have gone through this horrendous ordeal, that is a

:39:24.:39:27.

legitimate debate. But to me yesterday's debate just took away

:39:28.:39:31.

from where the real quality of debate should be. When you say it is

:39:32.:39:35.

a legitimate debate, are you suggesting that at least you

:39:36.:39:38.

personally, if not the Scottish Conservatives, would oppose the

:39:39.:39:43.

so-called rape clause? It is an exemption, it is not a rape clause.

:39:44.:39:49.

If we are going to cap child tax credit you need to have an

:39:50.:39:53.

exemption. That is a debate so the debate should not be around the

:39:54.:39:56.

so-called rape clause or exemption clause, the debate should be around

:39:57.:40:03.

the two-child tax credit. Is not just about what the SNP should do,

:40:04.:40:06.

if you feel strongly about it you should be opposing your own

:40:07.:40:10.

government in London. I didn't say I was strongly against it, I said we

:40:11.:40:13.

should have debate in the chamber about the two-child tax credit. We

:40:14.:40:19.

didn't have a debate about it, we had a debate about what the SNP are

:40:20.:40:22.

calling a rape clause and that's the wrong thing, a detracted from the

:40:23.:40:26.

real debate. Jenny Gilruth, can we swing around to you. I haven't asked

:40:27.:40:32.

question yet. The question is, it's within the power of the Scottish

:40:33.:40:37.

Government simply to not implement the two-child cap in Scotland, so

:40:38.:40:42.

why not do that? It is not the job of the Scottish Government to

:40:43.:40:45.

mitigate against Tory austerity. I'm sorry, it is the job, you did that

:40:46.:40:51.

on the bedroom tax so why not on this? What you saw yesterday was the

:40:52.:40:54.

Parliament coming together and the Tories are on the back foot on this,

:40:55.:40:58.

the whole parliament has come together against this barbaric

:40:59.:41:01.

clause. You talked about a debate, we didn't have a debate, none of the

:41:02.:41:05.

Tories took interventions, they were a message and toed the party line

:41:06.:41:08.

but none of them could look as in the face. They were clearly

:41:09.:41:11.

embarrassed and it was an appalling date for the Parliament and not a

:41:12.:41:20.

good day for democracy in Scotland either. There was no attempt to

:41:21.:41:22.

argue back. You still haven't answered, guided my question --

:41:23.:41:28.

answered my question. It is not the job of the SNP to mitigate Tory

:41:29.:41:32.

policies. If you are that opposed you simply won't implement it.

:41:33.:41:36.

Yesterday was an opportunity for the Conservative Party to stand up and

:41:37.:41:40.

be counted and say it was not in the name. What about you? It was not an

:41:41.:41:44.

opportunity for the Scottish Government to legislate, it was a

:41:45.:41:48.

chance to unify against Tory austerity being imposed upon us. You

:41:49.:41:51.

haven't answered my question, if you feel that strongly, and you are not

:41:52.:41:55.

trying to score political points, don't implement the policy, you have

:41:56.:41:58.

the powerful top that is not what the debate was about yesterday. Do

:41:59.:42:03.

you think the Scottish Government should refuse to implement the

:42:04.:42:06.

policy? That is up to the Scottish Government. What do you think?

:42:07.:42:09.

Yellow Medinah post to it and my party has made our position clear.

:42:10.:42:13.

You think it should not be implemented? -- I'm opposed to it.

:42:14.:42:23.

It is abhorrent. I presume labour is against not just the so-called rape

:42:24.:42:27.

clause, but against the policy per se. It is a terrible policy. The

:42:28.:42:34.

arbitrariness of the two-child rule on child credits is wrong, the rape

:42:35.:42:39.

clause amplifies what is a sorry situation and I think the Tories'

:42:40.:42:43.

position is really sorry. They tried to hide behind differences in

:42:44.:42:47.

meaning and words but the reality is that people who have been through an

:42:48.:42:53.

horrendous ordeal are having to self identify and nominate a bit of paper

:42:54.:42:58.

bureaucracy. It is horrific. The other side of this is if you are

:42:59.:43:01.

going to reform the welfare system at all, and for example, although he

:43:02.:43:04.

didn't get round to doing much about it, Tony Blair was almost always

:43:05.:43:08.

vary in favour of the last Labour government but one doing that. There

:43:09.:43:15.

will be different difficult issues to address. Have you no sympathy

:43:16.:43:18.

with the position of the Conservative government that, OK,

:43:19.:43:21.

you have criticised specific measure, but almost anything you do

:43:22.:43:26.

to reform the welfare system, issues like this arise? They don't have to

:43:27.:43:30.

rise like this. Tax credits were the creation of the Labour government,

:43:31.:43:34.

they were about making work pay. They are a real achievement and we

:43:35.:43:38.

are seeing it dismantled by this Tory government in the most

:43:39.:43:41.

heartless and cruel way. I think the rape clause just exemplifies that.

:43:42.:43:46.

Ross Greer, is that the side of your head? It is the side of your head

:43:47.:43:50.

icy. Do you think the Scottish Government should do what I

:43:51.:43:53.

suggested to Jenny Gilruth, they should do if they are being honest

:43:54.:43:56.

in their rhetoric, and not implement it? It is two different things,

:43:57.:44:00.

mitigating and not implementing, we should look at how we can mitigate

:44:01.:44:05.

it in Scotland but Jenny was correct in saying the Scottish Parliament

:44:06.:44:09.

doesn't just exist to act as a last line of defence against terrible

:44:10.:44:12.

Conservative polities in Westminster, it's about making

:44:13.:44:16.

people's lives better and not fighting a rearguard action against

:44:17.:44:23.

something like the rape clause. You keep saying it is not the Scottish

:44:24.:44:27.

Parliament's job to mitigate Tory cuts. Matzoh people in Scotland and

:44:28.:44:30.

England will agree with what the Conservative government is doing --

:44:31.:44:35.

a lot of people. You are mocking that, they genuinely do. It is

:44:36.:44:40.

horrific and if anyone agrees that the victims of rape should give

:44:41.:44:42.

anonymity for a bit of paperwork they are defending a horrific

:44:43.:44:46.

policy. The Scottish Parliament will have control over 50% of Social

:44:47.:44:50.

Security, not the whole welfare system. Any money that we spend on

:44:51.:44:55.

that comes out of another budget -- 15%. This is a perfect policy from

:44:56.:44:59.

the Tories that will give up anonymity for rape victims and if

:45:00.:45:05.

they still live with the rapist they cannot get out of this. Brian is

:45:06.:45:12.

waffling about something else. The two-child child tax credit. If you

:45:13.:45:15.

look at countries where there are Tambe policies, China, Iran and the

:45:16.:45:21.

UK, do we want to be on that list? -- two-child policies. It is

:45:22.:45:27.

disgraceful from the Conservatives. Alex Cole-Hamilton, and then we will

:45:28.:45:31.

move on. You were in government with the Conservatives. Is this one of

:45:32.:45:35.

the things you think you would have stop them doing? We did stop them

:45:36.:45:38.

doing this, that is the untold story of coalition, all of the things that

:45:39.:45:42.

didn't make it to the statute book thanks to the intervention of the

:45:43.:45:45.

Liberal Democrats blocking ideological changes to things like

:45:46.:45:48.

the child tax credit system that the Tories wanted to introduce and the

:45:49.:45:52.

two-child cap came up under our coalition regime and we stopped it

:45:53.:45:56.

because it is barbaric. You don't make social policy based on an

:45:57.:45:59.

upward limit to the child-bearing because inevitably if you did then

:46:00.:46:03.

by necessity you would have a precondition that was an exemption

:46:04.:46:07.

of rape clause. If you have a policy that leads you to then have women

:46:08.:46:12.

prove to you either to an employee of the state or a third party that

:46:13.:46:16.

they were raped such a policy has no place in our society. This is now

:46:17.:46:21.

law, right? It is coming in, yes, as it is, in April. I think Jenny

:46:22.:46:26.

Gilruth should take a stand and do what they can to mitigate it. It is

:46:27.:46:30.

interesting the Scottish Government choose to call in Westminster to

:46:31.:46:35.

stop it. But yes this is further evidence of the Scottish Government

:46:36.:46:38.

being unwilling to use the powers that it and other parties have

:46:39.:46:41.

fought hard fought for the introduction of further devolution

:46:42.:46:45.

to the Scottish Parliament. Daniel Johnson, do you think the Scottish

:46:46.:46:48.

Government should intervene to stop this happening appear? Well, look,

:46:49.:46:52.

first and foremost, we have to look at just how cruel this policy is.

:46:53.:46:58.

But absolutely, the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament

:46:59.:47:01.

as the powers, we fought hard for those powers so we can make

:47:02.:47:05.

different decisions. Standing on the sidelines wringing your hands and

:47:06.:47:08.

saying isn't the Tory government awful and doing nothing about it is

:47:09.:47:12.

frankly reckless. Luck, I know this is a serious issue and feelings are

:47:13.:47:19.

running very high. This is about to go into law and it must have been in

:47:20.:47:22.

the process of going through four weeks if not months now. It does

:47:23.:47:26.

seem slightly odd it has only become a huge issue now there is a general

:47:27.:47:31.

election being called. I don't think that's fair, it has been an issue

:47:32.:47:41.

for months. Other as MPs have been taking -- MSPs have been taking it

:47:42.:47:46.

up. MSPs have been talking about this. Brian Whittle, it's my fault.

:47:47.:47:54.

All I will say is your point, it's interesting this has been in statute

:47:55.:47:58.

for over 18 months and it is only now coming to the fore. I don't know

:47:59.:48:03.

what is different now to the last 18 months but all I can think of is

:48:04.:48:07.

there happens to be an election. Jenny Gilruth, what about that

:48:08.:48:12.

point? There has been campaigning on this issue for two years and it has

:48:13.:48:16.

been a huge issue for my party nationally, while you might think it

:48:17.:48:19.

is a defining issue in the election you might be correct but we are

:48:20.:48:22.

aware we are. We were told by one of Brian's bosses this is not the time

:48:23.:48:26.

and now it is the time so it is becoming a defining issue for the

:48:27.:48:28.

Conservatives but it has been an issue for my party for years now.

:48:29.:48:34.

Why didn't we have a debate then? We are running out of time, let's have

:48:35.:48:38.

a quick whip round of how many seats you think you will win in the

:48:39.:48:40.

election. LAUGHTER

:48:41.:48:45.

Let's start with you, Brian Whittle. Well, let's put it this way, I've

:48:46.:48:50.

looked at polls over the last couple of years and none have been correct

:48:51.:48:53.

so there is a lot of water to go under the bridge but I am confident

:48:54.:48:56.

we will have a lot more MPs in Parliament that we currently have.

:48:57.:49:01.

You think you are going to win in the UK. But are you confident of

:49:02.:49:06.

having more MPs in Scotland? Yes, I am. Jenny Gilruth, are you going to

:49:07.:49:14.

have 59? Yes, let's hope so, 59, every seat. Is that a forecast or

:49:15.:49:18.

just wishful thinking? We will be fighting hard in every constituency.

:49:19.:49:24.

It is wishful thinking? That is not what I said. Daniel Johnson, one

:49:25.:49:29.

would be good for you. I'm confident we will hold all of the seats we

:49:30.:49:33.

currently hold. Are you really that confident? I am and we have to work

:49:34.:49:38.

hard but Ian Murray is a fantastic MP and I'm quite confident that if

:49:39.:49:42.

we do the work we need to do and we will hold the seat for him and we

:49:43.:49:46.

may surprise with gains. Gain or gains? I used the plural, I always

:49:47.:49:54.

an optimistic person. Ross Greer, there has been some talk, in fact,

:49:55.:49:57.

from some of your leading people about... I mean, you haven't got any

:49:58.:50:03.

seats but the idea is you might in areas for example David Mundell's

:50:04.:50:08.

seat, not stand a Green candidate. Is that something you would be in

:50:09.:50:11.

favour of Orchard the Greens make the effort? That is something for

:50:12.:50:16.

local branches to decide, I don't live in Dumfries, Clydesdale and to

:50:17.:50:19.

Easdale, so I don't have a right to tell them whether to stand in the

:50:20.:50:24.

area. Do the Greens have a policy as to how many seats you will contest?

:50:25.:50:29.

Isn't that a green policy? No, it is each individual branch making the

:50:30.:50:31.

decision whether to stand and wait to stand, for a Democratic Party

:50:32.:50:36.

that is perfectly normal. The next week will be focused on electing

:50:37.:50:39.

green councils. Pretend you live in that part of the world and give us

:50:40.:50:44.

your opinion. My branch convener in Dumfries may be watching and for me

:50:45.:50:49.

to tell her what she should be doing is not right. I don't think I've

:50:50.:50:54.

ever heard a political party say it would be disrespectful to comment on

:50:55.:50:58.

whether they should stand in the seats at a general election. It's

:50:59.:51:04.

extraordinary. Yeah... Thanks, Jenny. It is for local branches to

:51:05.:51:08.

decide, we will stand across the country, I don't know how many seats

:51:09.:51:11.

and where the seats are, again, I will repeat it is for the local

:51:12.:51:15.

branches to decide. You asked how many seats, I suspect there will be

:51:16.:51:21.

more than one green MP in Parliament by the 9th of June. More than one

:51:22.:51:32.

Scottish one? I will take that as a no. How many digits for the Liberal

:51:33.:51:36.

Democrats? We will grow in this election, look at my face, this is a

:51:37.:51:40.

momentum election for us and why? We are standing in ground occupied by

:51:41.:51:43.

the majority of Scottish people who want to see Scotland are strong at

:51:44.:51:47.

the heart of the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom strong at the

:51:48.:51:50.

heart of Europe. We are the only party going into the general

:51:51.:51:52.

election promising that mandate and we expect to grow in big numbers and

:51:53.:51:58.

Chris Turner in strength in Scotland and the rest of the UK. This is a

:51:59.:52:06.

great opportunity for us -- -- big numbers in Scotland and across the

:52:07.:52:10.

UK. What sort of number do you think is realistic for the Liberal

:52:11.:52:16.

Democrats. People think you could do well. There is talk of it in the

:52:17.:52:19.

south-west which I think was a pretty Brexit area but some of the

:52:20.:52:25.

Tories who wipe you out last time seemed to be frightened. What sort

:52:26.:52:29.

of figure are you looking at? We got an opinion poll today that borders

:52:30.:52:32.

on 14% across the United Kingdom and the last time we did that we had 57

:52:33.:52:40.

MPs. We have gained 30 by-election victories in council by-elections

:52:41.:52:42.

around the British Isles including in Scotland since May last year and

:52:43.:52:45.

our membership has gone up to over 100000 and we have drawn in ?1.6

:52:46.:52:53.

million worth of cash donations in the last four days. Will Liberal

:52:54.:52:56.

Democrat candidates refrain from making personal promises on tuition

:52:57.:52:59.

fees? LAUGHTER

:53:00.:53:03.

That is highly likely, yes. The shot our viewers have all been waiting

:53:04.:53:07.

for, there you are, all of you looking wonderful standing together.

:53:08.:53:08.

Thank you for joining us. Is there going to be an excitement

:53:09.:53:15.

in the election campaign, do you think? In Scotland, I think there is

:53:16.:53:22.

the potential for it to ignite, more so than in England, because we have

:53:23.:53:30.

the constitutional question which is still dominating and providing the

:53:31.:53:35.

framework for how politics is being conducted and we are still living

:53:36.:53:38.

through that. We're living through this period starting in 2011 when

:53:39.:53:44.

the SNP won an unexpected majority and it is still to settle down. Many

:53:45.:53:49.

of the political issues are being seen through the prism of the

:53:50.:53:55.

Constitution. Do you think Labour... Everyone has said how dismal

:53:56.:54:00.

Labour's prospects are but we haven't even started the campaign

:54:01.:54:05.

yet. Do you think either nationally that Corbyn could perhaps do a bit

:54:06.:54:08.

better than everyone is saying, or up in Scotland, that they could

:54:09.:54:13.

break through everything being seen in terms of the Constitution and

:54:14.:54:16.

make an impact? I think personally speaking Jeremy Corbyn has made

:54:17.:54:22.

quite a solid start, albeit it is early days, to the general election

:54:23.:54:27.

campaign. I suspect a lot of that is rooted in the fact that he enjoys

:54:28.:54:32.

the freedom to be outward facing and not worry about the knives going

:54:33.:54:37.

into his back from his own party. One view is this general election

:54:38.:54:41.

campaign is more his kind of thing than, say, Prime Minister's

:54:42.:54:44.

Questions. Yes and he doesn't have to worry about the people in his own

:54:45.:54:50.

party who are some of his stiffest enemies. Because they will have to

:54:51.:54:54.

gather round. Yes, and in Scotland it's different. One of the papers

:54:55.:54:58.

this morning, I think it was the Herald, predicting via various

:54:59.:55:06.

political academics there will be a complete meltdown for Labour in

:55:07.:55:10.

Glasgow with as low as 15%, the Tories and 25 and the SNP on 50 odd

:55:11.:55:14.

and the other three local authority areas that they control could go

:55:15.:55:21.

too. If that happens I really fear for Labour on June the 8th in

:55:22.:55:26.

Scotland. They have one MP at the moment and it's not fanciful to save

:55:27.:55:32.

a maybe, for the first time ever I think, have no MPs in Scotland on

:55:33.:55:36.

June the 9th. The first time since before the formation of the Labour

:55:37.:55:37.

representation. So Westminster is preparing to break

:55:38.:55:39.

up ahead of the general election - a final word from our correspondent

:55:40.:55:42.

David Porter. What is the mood there, David? The

:55:43.:55:51.

overriding mood, Gordon, is let's get on with it. We had the surprise

:55:52.:55:55.

announcement last week we were having the general election which

:55:56.:55:58.

quite frankly took the vast majority of people by surprise. We then had

:55:59.:56:02.

the procedure of actually allowing Theresa May to call a general

:56:03.:56:07.

election early. Today, if you like, has been sort of the last rites of

:56:08.:56:12.

this Parliament, the last hurrah of this parliament with Prime

:56:13.:56:16.

Minister's Question Time. But the overwhelming view of most MPs and

:56:17.:56:20.

those who are part of the various political machines down here at

:56:21.:56:24.

Westminster is let's get on with things now, let's concentrate on it.

:56:25.:56:28.

You were discussing with Kevin a moment ago the local elections next

:56:29.:56:33.

week. Normally local elections pale into insignificance. But I think

:56:34.:56:36.

because they will be coming in effect just a month or so before the

:56:37.:56:40.

general election, people will be watching them very closely.

:56:41.:56:43.

Certainly the parties will be, and certainly they will be in Scotland.

:56:44.:56:47.

They will be looking at the way votes have been cast, not opinion

:56:48.:56:54.

polls, the way votes have been cast and tailor their campaigns

:56:55.:56:56.

accordingly. Certainly the Scottish MPs I've been speaking to have all

:56:57.:57:00.

said they will be looking very carefully at what happens on May the

:57:01.:57:05.

4th. That is not an opinion poll, that is a real poll where people

:57:06.:57:09.

vote and I think inevitably, as far as the local elections go, people

:57:10.:57:13.

will probably be voting on general election issues. All right, thanks,

:57:14.:57:19.

David. It is important, you refer to it already, Kevin. I heard at the

:57:20.:57:25.

weekend that pretty much the same thing, therefore it must be true,

:57:26.:57:29.

that you are going to have a real poll rather than an opinion poll on

:57:30.:57:33.

May the 4th. If that does happen to the Labour Party, it is almost base

:57:34.:57:38.

camp for them. If the SNP were to take Glasgow,

:57:39.:57:45.

which is one of their top desires for several years now, then with

:57:46.:57:53.

just over a month still to go between May the 4th and June the

:57:54.:57:57.

8th, who knows what sort of momentum that would then give the SNP

:57:58.:58:06.

campaign? It's the momentum of the victorious, it will give them

:58:07.:58:10.

confidence, it will give some individuals confidence, and people

:58:11.:58:13.

like to be associated with winners. What about the Tories? Are they

:58:14.:58:17.

expected to do well? If they get anywhere near what Professor Curtis

:58:18.:58:23.

and his fellows have been saying, which is that they will be up to ten

:58:24.:58:27.

points ahead of Labour in Glasgow, then they will be cock-a-hoop. But

:58:28.:58:33.

remember, in Holyrood, most of the MSPs are thereby virtually of the

:58:34.:58:41.

list and most were overwhelmingly rejected by the voters. They will

:58:42.:58:42.

not have that luxury this time. We will have to leave it there,

:58:43.:58:45.

Kevin. Tune in tomorrow for First

:58:46.:58:48.

Minister's Questions at midday. I'll be back on Sunday with Sunday

:58:49.:58:52.

Politics Scotland - join us then. this super-sized hospital has been

:58:53.:58:55.

transforming lives in Scotland. There's nowhere else in Scotland

:58:56.:59:08.

that could have done

:59:09.:59:17.

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