28/11/2013 Politics Scotland

A warm welcome to the Scottish parliament. The talk is still about

the White Paper on independence and the ramifications of that. The

latest controversy over the European Union suggestions and from the

Spanish Prime Minister that a state would find itself outside the

European Union on independence. Let us see if that comes up in questions

to the First Minister. Scotland could have to reapply as a

new member. What part of the statement does the First Minister

not understand? I haven't got a full transcript of Mariano Rajoy's

statement. He started the statement saying, I don't yet know what will

White Paper says which was presented by the Scottish president yesterday.

I've got to say, promotion is always welcome of course, but I would like

to make it clear that we make it clear that Her Majesty The Queen

will continue as head of state in an independent Scotland. I know the

First Minister likes to quote selectively but that takes the

biscuit. Looking for a reaffirmation, where does he find

it. Letters hear what the Spanish Prime Minister said, I would like

that the consequence of that secession be presented with realism

to Scots. Citizens have the right to be well-informed and, particularly,

when it is about taking decisions like this one. I know for sure that

a region that would separate from a member state of the European Union

would outside the European Union. And that should be known by the

Scots. The Spanish Prime Minister is being straighter with the people of

Scotland than the First Minister. Since, in any negotiation, Mariano

Rajoy will have a veto, shouldn't the First Minister lesson? I am not

president and Scotland is not a region. Scotland is a nation. The

difference is that Scotland negotiating its position from within

the EU. Can that happen legally? Would that happen? And can the

process be completed within 18 months? I have a letter from the

head of the European Commission secretariat general addressing

that. The ongoing democratic process is a matter for the UK and Scottish

government and the Scottish people and it would be legally possible to

renegotiate the situation of the UK and Scotland within the European

Union. I will put this in spice so that all men are both can have the

benefit of it. Can it and would it happen legally? Can I cite the judge

at the British Court of Justice for 12 years and the person who knows

most about these arguments in Scotland at the present moment. "In

accordance with their obligations, the EU institutions and member

states, including the UK as existing, would be obliged to enter

into negotiations before separation to determine the future relationship

within the EU of the separate parts of the former UK and other member

states" . So, yes, it would happen because the obligation is to do it.

Thirdly and crucially, could the process be completed within the

timescale? I cited the European Commissioner, let us cite someone

who even the authority, if it cannot be questioned by the better together

parties, is Professor James Crawford, the person appointed and

paid by the UK Government to dispense legal advice on this matter

and asked specifically this question about the 18 month timetable. He

said, the Scottish estimate is about 18 months and that seems realistic.

So if we have the European Commission, the court of justice and

the person appointed by the UK Government to say the timetable

looks realistic, then I think that is reasonably substantial evidence

that Scotland, as a nation, net can negotiate its position to full

membership within the European Union.

I know what a nation is. The problem is the First Minister doesn't seem

to understand what a veto is. It doesn't matter who else you quote,

if there are 28 states with a veto they can use it if they choose to do

so. But, of course, this is a First Minister who said he had EU legal

advice in terms of the debate, which didn't exist in terms of reality.

The EU commission president said Scotland would have to reapply to

the EU. Now, the Spanish Prime Minister agrees with him. But in

Alex Salmond 's world, they are run. Yesterday, he said, " without

Scottish electricity England's light would go off" like he is Vladimir

Putin. What is the First Minister going to turn off in Spain if they

insist Scotland is not in the EU. Is he going to threaten to blockade the

North Sea again, like he did in June this year. In terms of... I am sure

Johann Lamont wouldn't want to say something that this prime -- Spanish

Prime Minister didn't say because there is no mention of a veto in

anything he said yesterday. The question has been addressed directly

by the Spanish Foreign Minister who said in response to that exact

question and let me quoted exactly, "if in the UK, both parties agree it

is consistent with the constitutional order, Spain would

have nothing to say but that it does not affect us. No one could -- would

object to a consented Scottish independence" . That is what the

Spanish Foreign Minister said but Johann Lamont has the idea that

Scotland is a place no one else in the European Union would want as a

member. This nation, with its huge natural resource base would be

welcome within the EU and not to realise and understand that point,

Scotland is a European nation and we want to be a European nation but the

only question about our membership is what is coming from the

Conservative Party, many of whom want to get out of Europe. Scotland

will be welcome as a member of the European Union. I used to say to my

children, what you want is not necessarily what you get. The First

Minister needs to understand it is not simply his assertion that

matters here, it is what people are entitled to do. If people can't

agree, they can also disagree and also agree on conditions. We don't

know what those conditions would be because the reality is, this White

Paper, so vaunted, is truly historic. No document has become

obsolete quite so quickly. What it says about keeping the pound is just

plain wrong. Now we know that what it says about Scotland's staying in

the EU is just plain wrong. But the First Minister thinks if he asserts

things often enough they become true. If he says it is common sense

or as night follows day, his next statement will be believed however

unbelievable it is in reality. What does it say about Scotland when

Scots have to listen to a foreign government to find out the truth?

The exchange I cited with the head of European Commission to say you

can do it legally from within the EU and I have cited the judge from the

European Court of Justice and I have cited Professor James Crawford who

was paid by the UK Government who says the 18 month timetable is

realistic. That is a substantial amount of evidence and the Spanish

Foreign Minister says that no one would object to the consented

independence of Scotland. That was the precise reason for having the

Edinburgh agreement in the first place. I had the one about the

catalogue before because she used it last night. Just before she seemed

to suggest she was going to means test nursery education under labours

plans for Scotland. This question goes to the heart whether unionist

parties believe that Scotland would be a welcomed member of the EU and

we had a definitive answer on that last night from one of key members

of better together, Alistair Carmichael. I wouldn't recommend

people watch it because a referee would have stopped that programme

when Nicola Sturgeon was bruising the bruiser last night. But there

was a comment which some should look at. Alistair Carmichael said we

would be welcome and he said it is on the terms. Exactly. I believe the

terms of Scottish membership of the EU would not allow 1 billion euros

to be taken away from our rural industries as the UK Government has

done. Scotland as a European nation and is resource rich and would be

welcomed. Anyone who says better together had better embrace the idea

that this nation is a European nation and stop the scaremongering.

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister?

No plans in the near future. Before I start, I would like to get the

Spanish Foreign Minister out of the way because he said, in the

hypothetical case of independence, Scotland would have to ask the queue

-- join the queue and ask to be admitted. If we're going to squirt

the Spanish Foreign Minister, let us do it properly. On the 13th of

December last year, the Deputy First Minister made a statement on Europe

and in it she told MS peas that she had written to commission president

seeking early discussion with him on the process by which an independent

Scotland would become a member of the EU. She told the chamber she

would give an update once the discussions had taken place. Can the

First Minister tell us why, in the intervening 11 and a half months, we

haven't had that update? The European Commission have said they

need the UK Government to agree. Her government get on the phone to the

Prime Minister. Unfortunately, it will not be a Saint Andrews Day

reception but get on the phone and asked them to agree and we will go

together as the European Commission invited us to look at the legal case

for Scotland to be a member of the EU. Do it reversed charges and ask

your leader for permission. The First Minister should not be

surprised. Anyone who has had any dealings with the European Union

would know that they head of commission would only speak to

sovereign states on taxation issues, and the question is,

sovereign states on taxation issues, settle down please? Why didn't the

Deputy First Minister know when she said it? This shows what a shower of

rank amateurs the SNP government is when it comes to international

diplomacy. Because, deciding Officer, -- the siding officer...

They say that they are right and everyone else is wrong on Europe.

When the commission president says Scotland would have to join the same

queue to join as everyone else. That the Spanish prime minister is wrong

when he says we would have to join the same due as everybody else. That

this foreign ministers of Spain, Latvia, Ireland and the Czech

Republic are wrong when they say we would have to join the same due as

everybody else, and what the First Minister does not understand is that

it does not matter if he gets up to 27 member states on board. He needs

the Government of every single one of 28 countries to agree to his

demands. Does the First Minister think that he winning friends and

influencing people by telling that they are wrong? Judging by the

response from her backbenchers that was almost a valedictory question

Time from with Everton. Don't go into a debate with Nicola Sturgeon

on that sort of area. -- from Ruth Davison. This is an interesting

update for the Davidson. Yesterday she said the European commission

would not talk to ask after Scotland voted for independence. The European

commission are prepared to talk to us now. They say they need the

permission and we have to go jointly with the UK Government. We have said

that the UK Government, why don't we go jointly, and the UK Government of

her political party said they will not renegotiate therefore they will

not go. It is not the Spanish veto we have got to worry about, it is

the UK Government's beta. -- veto. David Stewart. The First Minister

for be aware that fly BA is closing its Inverness -based with the loss

of 35 jobs. Does the First Minister share my view that a base closure

today could be a rude closure tomorrow. Will you join my fight to

save the base and local Highlands and Islands jobs? We have had a

number of meetings with FlyBe. The member knows that this has been a

general retraction in FlyBe services. I'm sure the member agrees

with me that among the reasons they have cited for the difficulty, air

passenger duty has been a key part of it. In answer to the constituency

MP's question I will gladly meet with him and do what we can to

address that situation. To ask the First Minister what issues will be

discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. Issues of importance to the

people of Scotland. How many of the list of names that you read out to

Johann Lamont have got more power than Mariano Rajoy? It is the

Spanish prime minister 's word against his, that Mariano Rajoy has

the veto. The First Minister does not need most EU countries to back

Scotland, he needs every single one, and they all know that he has got

nowhere else to go. At breakfast yesterday there was little doubt

over Scotland's place in the EU, yet, by tea-time, there was little

certainty. What is he going to trade, to get the Spanish OnBoard?

Mariano Rajoy did not say Ibos going to veto. Be said that Spain would

not veto because it is a consented independence. If the Lib Dems want

to put words into the mouth of the Spanish prime minister, that is a

matter for them, but of course his own colleague said last night, and

it was repeated by another of his colleagues this morning, that

Scotland would be welcome, as a member of the European Union. That

is what Alistair Carmichael said last night. If we can get to that

first base in the Better Together parties and not have a situation

where the Liberal Democrats believe Scotland would be welcome and the

Labour Party seem to doubt Scotland would be welcome and the

Conservative party seem to doubt the entire European Union, if we can get

to the place of acknowledgement that Scotland with be a welcome member,

then I accept that this White Paper has been predicated on the basis

that Scotland as a European nation would be welcomed by other European

nations. We have every possible reason to believe that is the case.

And given that Alistair Carmichael has at knowledge that, then surely

Willie Rennie can bring himself to support, if not me, then his own

colleague. The First Minister should not answer questions I did not ask.

He is relying on his powers of persuasion with the Spanish prime

minister. But, we'll remember in this Chamber, his sixth red lines on

the Scotland Act, that he sold out on every single one of them. And

that was only negotiating with one government. That is why he has been

called the worst negotiator in the northern hemisphere. When the

Croatian ambassador was in this very building, he said, countries have to

take pretty much what it is offered. Every country has had to trade

things away to secure a place in the EU. Is he going to sell out our

Scottish fishermen, for a Spanish vote? What about the rebate? We all

know he will say anything to get independence, but just who will he

sell out to get the boat is that he needs? -- the votes. In negotiations

for joining the European Community as it was then, a civil servant

noted bitterly that, in light of Britain's wider European interest,

they, the Scottish fishermen are" expendable". An exact quote. I can

tell you that for the Scottish Government, Scottish fishermen will

never be expendable. And, just in case he thinks that is

too dated a quote, I can see his colleague sitting behind them, let

us remember that have a Scot had to resign from government in this

Chamber cossie did not think of fighting for Scottish fishermen. And

let's also remember the information published by Richard Lochhead, that

1 billion euros is the cost of British negotiation and attitude to

the common agricultural policy and that is a lost Scottish farmers,

even if we were getting the minimum support across the community, given

that evidence on fishing, farming and other issues, is exactly why

this European nation should represent itself at the top table in

Europe. Christine Grahame. To ask what

action the Scottish Government will take to about reported pressures on

social care budgets undermining care services for older and vulnerable

people. We have an ongoing FlyBe free personal care. That is the root

of ensuring effective care services for older, vulnerable people. That

integration will ensure that the resources of Scotland's caring

services can be used to best effect. I am aware that the cuts to budgets

are having huge impact across this area. But my constituency and

elsewhere, in the here and now, pressure on carers looking after the

elderly and vulnerable, are increasing to breaking point. Can I

ask of the First Minister and Cabinet colleagues will look at

whether in very pinched budgets we can look at finding some funding to

assist in the here and now? Can I draw your attention to the ?120

million integration fund for 2015-16? The final nature of that

fund is being determined in partnership with local authorities

and the third sector. That fund allows the reshaping of the care

fund to make 300 million of change funding available to help reshape

care for older people. And the Scottish Borders and other councils

working with local health boards can make use of these funds, for

example, the Scottish Borders have ?2 million from the change funds

this year for projects focusing on support at home, and on care and

hospital and then care homes. I hope that answer satisfies Christine

Grahame, and that commitment to free personal care is absolute and the

change fund and integration fund will make sure that we do everything

possible that we can, to make sure that integration between their whole

service and local authorities and personal care for the elderly and

vulnerable has the best possible passage. Thank you Poseidon officer.

-- thank you Presiding Officer. Roll the First Minister ensure that care

visits are long enough to provide the care and attention that a frail

and elderly person requires to allow them to live in security and

ignited, and rarely ensure that care visits are not restricted to 15

minutes or less? The UK home care Association has a survey that shows

that 50% of home care visits in Scotland last longer than 30 minutes

compared to just 27% in England. It shows that 89% of visits in Scotland

are longer than 15 minutes. There are a range of areas where

performance in Scotland, although not perfect and always capable of

improvement, is vastly superior to that which is going on elsewhere,

and free personal care on these figures, from the UK home care

Association is very much a reality. I share the concern, but she should

acknowledge that we and local authorities in Scotland are pursuing

a policy that is substantially better than colleagues south of the

border. To ask whether the Scottish Government considers that there is

sufficient capacity in the NHS to deal with demand this winter. Demand

for NHS services grows year-on-year, including for accident and emergency

services and winter brings increased pressures. This year we will be

working with the College of emergency medicine on a ?50 million

unscheduled care action plan that is putting more emergency consultants

in place to tackle unacceptably long waiting times in accident and

emergency. He should remember, under this government, almost 1000

additional medical consultants, including doubling the number of

accident and emergency consultants, 5.5% increase in another of GPs.

Winter brings its challenges. We will work with NHS staff to provide

the best possible service this coming winter. I am advised that

this week patients at Edinburgh West in general have been languishing on

trolleys for up to 18 hours. We found out this week that nine out of

14 NHS boards failed to meet waiting times targets. It is only November

and the weather is mild, and yet hospitals are struggling despite the

immense efforts of NHS staff. Why has the Government failed to heed

the warnings from the RCN, the BMA, the union Unison, patient groups and

many others who have said, for months and months, that the NHS is

not ready for winter? Can I cite Jason Long, Chair of the College of

emergency medicine Scotland, who says this is an important initiative

that will improve things across Scotland and we welcome the

opportunity to collaborate on it. The member should try to get these

things in terms of where we are. We have just published this week,

showing that the third quarter of 2013, performance against the four

our accident and emergency treatment target was 92.5%. Looking back just

a few years, the 2006, 87.5% of patients waited less than four

hours. Just let me repeat that. 95.2% in the last quarter, 87.5%, in

2006. The then health Minister, Andy Kerr, hailed bad performance and

said this was the first time we had got brains of data. This shows that

the vast majority of A departments are meeting targets and investment

is paying off. Every single one of us would like to see that 92.5% at

100%, of course we would, what the Labour Party will have to explain

how, in 2006, they got 87.5%, and apparently now 95.2% is not good

enough. Let us have a look at the reality and figures, and recognise

the improvements that have been made and the commitment that there is to

cope, as far as we possibly can in goodwill and good judgement, with

the coming winter and the pressure on accident and emergency units, and

let us also remember the people who serve the public in these units, who

are doing their best for the health of Scotland. To ask the First

Minister what the Scottish Government position is on recent

comments by the Secretary of State for Scotland regarding the future of

the Barnett for Ni La once the economy has stabilised. -- the

Barnett formula. I hope he has recovered from the debate last

night. This aspect in up in the debate last night. And on Monday,

that report from the all-party Parliamentary taxation group, which

includes MPs from the Conservatives, the Lib Dems and the Labour Party,

will say that the Barnett formula must be replaced as a priority. We

know that the commission which was commissioned by the Secretary of

State for Wales, who has been lobbied by the Better Together

parties when he came to Scotland last week, he forecast a ?4 billion

cut in terms of their assessment, so we have all three Better Together

parties signed up to a ?4 billion cut in Scotland's finances, or to

put it in terms that the Tory party understands, ?1600 for every

taxpayer in Scotland. The UK economy remains unstable which suggest that

the Barnett formula 's days are numbers stop does he agree with

those pressing for substantial cuts to Scotland's budget in addition to

those in job in recent years and the only way for Scotland to avoid those

cuts is for Scotland to vote yes in next year's independence referendum?

This is where we come to it. All three of the genius parties, quote

after quote from the three of them, who say, scrap the Barnett formula.

Now they have said what they want to replace it by, and we know because

the academics concerned told us in the Financial Times, that there

estimate was a cut of ?4 billion in Scotland's finances, so that is why

when we publish the White Paper, we publish that EDL, and our

perspective for an independent Scotland, let us see from the

Unionist parties, the reality of what their colleagues are planning

in terms of ?4 billion of cuts in Scottish finances. Thank you very

much. The Barnett formula is an arrangement for redistributing the

sources around the UK, and the person campaigning harvest for the

end of that is the First Minister. Does the First Minister understand

that if you are not in it, you will not get it? Can I answer that with

statistics? We get 9.3% of the spending but we raise 9.9% of the

revenue. 9.9% is greater than 9.3%. And it happens to be greater by

about 4 billion pounds. Therefore, it would be a good idea if we got

control of the revenue as well as the spending. What his colleagues

have in mind is cutting the 9.3%, down to 8.3%. ?4 billion less. To

put it in terms as simple as I can for Labour backbenchers, if last

year we had years about raising revenue of taxation, we would have

?4 billion more, under the plans of the Better Together parties, we will

have ?4 billion less. Does that complete the calculation?

That ends First Minister 's questions. Alex Salmond offering a

lesson in arithmetic to some of his counterparts on the Labour benches.

The session close with the issue of money. It began with that

substantial controversy about the European Union topics. Topics that

BBC Scotland will return to encourage throughout the days, weeks

and months ahead. But from me, it is time to hand over to my colleagues

on the daily politics. Williams. We have gone across the

parties. John, do you think uses your moustache? I have been told,

almost universally know. My wife is watching today, making sure it comes

off. She is absolutely repulsed by. You get grudging admiration from

male friends. Not from the ladies. Absolutely. What about responses for

you? I have tried many styles, this is the most successful. I do get

admiration. I am pleased to say we have