29/06/2011 Politics Scotland


29/06/2011

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Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.

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On today's programme we'll be looking at the latest ideas to

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streamline public services in tough economic times.

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And confirmation today that there'll be no fees for Scottish

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students before or after graduation. But the Education Secretary, Mike

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Russell, will tell Holyrood there'll be bigger fees for other

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UK students coming north to study. We'll hear the announcement live.

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But, first, the Christie Commission, who have said today that public

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bodies in Scotland need to work together and eliminate waste. The

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Commission's report for the Scottish Government says that there

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must be change, otherwise rising demand will "overwhelm" the system.

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The Commission says the focus should be on earlier prevention of

:00:56.:01:00.

problems to avoid huge costs further down the line. Commission

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chairman Campbell Christie, once the General Secretary of the STUC,

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was asked whether Scotland could afford to make the switch to

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problem prevention. We can't afford not to. For by

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following through all the recommendations of the report we

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will be was ceasing - - releasing resources by avoiding duplication.

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If we can get services working together then we can make savings

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and that can go into providing prevention. We need to do it

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because if we don't the demand in public services will be an

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increasing number of elderly, and we are not so addressing problems

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that we know we exist with young people. It has to be done. With us

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today in the studio is the commentator Alf Young, former

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assistant editor of the Herald newspaper. What do you make of the

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Christie commission's report? Can you explain about early

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intervention? There is a number in there that is interesting. 40 % of

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all the money spent in the public sector at the moment is spent on

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trying to resolve problems that have arisen because of not

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intervening early, whether it is in early years education or early

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stages of illness and so on. There is a kind of magic possibility out

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there that if you can do the preventative stuff quickly and

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effectively, then you don't have to spend all the money later on

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sorting out the problems that arise. The problem is, the think the way

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to do it is to get all the big services like the health service

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and local authorities to collaborate and work together.

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Getting them to do that, the rhetoric has gripped - - is of

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great, but getting big public bodies to work closely together is

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incredibly difficult. So some quite high ideals, in a way, but there

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have been criticisms that it is quite a Willie report. There is a

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good analysis there. There are big issues in terms of democratic

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change hands in services. Also the fact that the money will not be

:03:32.:03:42.
:03:42.:03:44.

there. The Budget will not recover across the public sector until 2026.

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The EC agenda has always been for politicians to change organisations,

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to reorganise local government or integrated this or that - - easy

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agenda. It is easy, but costly. It is much harder to get the

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integration of activity where people worked intimately together

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and see themselves as being part of the same delivery with the focus on

:04:14.:04:24.
:04:24.:04:28.

the customer, on the public. So that it would be a service when you

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are dealing with the private sector you get what you want, businesses

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have to serve your needs. In the public sector it is the same. But

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that is hard to deliver. We are going to hear Mike Russell speak

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soon. What will he set out? He is looking at the big changes that are

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coming in England in university education and the impact on that

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appear. If more and more students want to come here because it is a

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cheaper option, then the Scottish system has got to deal with that

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because the gap between what they are prepared to do in terms of not

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charging fees against what is happening in the South is a

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headache for him. Let's go over to the main debating

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chamber at Holyrood and listen to the statement by the Education

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:05:28.:05:35.

Secretary, Mike Russell. He is just about to get up on his feet.

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Today and return to the chamber to set out the next steps, steps that

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will be taken in the context of a wider ambition on education in

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Scotland. My vision is of a sector of the plays an important role

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delivering improved life chances for young people that provides the

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best outcomes for learners, they take that world class research base

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of the even greater success and makes them as well possible

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contribution to getting greater economic growth for Scotland.

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Scottish universities are highly regarded and will play as a central

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role in our vision for Scotland. We want to protect and enhance the

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competitiveness while ensuring that they provide opportunities for all.

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Before the election I was clear that the debate on higher education

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were sometimes too narrowly focused on the issue of fees. The green

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paper opened up a more fundamental discussion. We will not follow

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England by pitting unmanageable debt burden on our graduates. The

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average Scottish graduate currently has less than have their debts,

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almost �11,000 less, than their English counterparts. With the new

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arrangements in England graduates could walk out with an average of

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�30,000 debt. We do not think tuition fees are the right solution

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for us. As Ken Mackintosh said, the Conservatives are side we have

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solidarity on this issue. This is no longer a live issue for us.

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Higher education is based in this country on the ability to learn,

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not the ability to pay. Our first step must be to address the

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financial challenges ahead, the challenges created by decisions in

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England. I have been clear onto issues, we will not charge fees for

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Scottish students and we will fund the sector so it can retain its

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competitive position. Alastair Sim from the University of Scotland

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said that that the situation and England will not be clear until

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next month. Moreover, universities UK said it will not be fully clear

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until students start to take their places in university next year. It

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is possible that yesterday's lunch of the UK white paper may have only

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added to that uncertainty. But I intend to use the best information

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we have available over the summer recess to work with the sector

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through the Spending Review to start to put the funding solution

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for them into place now. Today am announcing what response will be to

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:08:26.:08:26.

hire fees in England and Wales - - higher fees. Scollan welcome

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students from all over the world and we want them to continue to

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come here because of the quality of what we offer. But we must be the

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best option, not the cheapest and we need to move quickly. Or

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universities are starting to plan recruitment campaigns for 2012 and

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13. We must provide clarity for potential students from the rest of

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the UK who want to make the choice to study in Scotland. I am

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launching a consultation on proposals for secondary legislation

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to allow Scottish universities to set their own fees from students

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from the rest of the UK. A plant in Trig - - and introduce primary

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legislation which will restrict to �9,000 per Adam - - per annum that

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they can charge to students not from Scotland. This means that we

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can expect to see a range of potential fees for other UK

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students from �1,800 to �9,000 giving institutions flexibilities

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to target their recruitment. I would expect the average fee has

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gone to be law than an England, possibly about the �6,375 figures.

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We have no option but to act. If we did nothing students from England

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in particular with pages of rate in hundred pounds a year to attend a

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Scottish university, compared to five times the total in their home

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nation. Action is essential to make sure that Scottish students are not

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squeezed out by students from elsewhere. Our universities will

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still be able to offer Scott are students the same number of places

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next year as they did this year. In fact in time and they allow them to

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offer more places I will ensure also that the additional revenue is

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distributed fairly. We will work with the groups to ensure that the

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additional income generated helps the whole of the sector. The

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consultation process will run from today until the 2nd September with

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the relevant secondary legislation to be laid later that month. As

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well as implementing these new arrangements we will continue to

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explore the feasibility within the boundaries of European law of a

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management fee for a European Union students. This is a complex area

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and we need to take her time to explore what might be possible. I

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hope to be able to say more about this later in the year. My

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aspirations for the sector are wider than just financial. They

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must have mordant and transparent governance arrangements in our

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universities as a prerequisite. These plans will be shaped by the

:11:20.:11:30.
:11:30.:11:31.

amounts were they made two years ago. The review will look into

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whether or not there is the appropriate level of autonomy and

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transparency. I am publishing the remit of the review today alongside

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a call for evidence. I expect to have recommendations by the end of

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this year and to legislate next year. We must go further than that.

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In September it will bring forward more detailed proposals in the pre-

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legislative paper covering not just universities but also colleges,

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skills and training. This will be followed by a period of public

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debate before legislation covering the reform of all those areas has

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introduced to the parliament some time in 2012. Meeting the needs of

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the learner will be at the heart of those proposals. Scotland's ability

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to flourish is dependent on its people and I'm committed to

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ensuring all of our people have the opportunities they need to improve

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their life chances, their attainment and employability. There

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will be tough choices and we need to be much clearer about the

:12:30.:12:40.
:12:40.:12:40.

provision on offer. He broadly speaking, my proposals for reform

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will include more efficient and flexible learner progression with

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more students capable of moving from school to college to

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university into jobs. In standardisation of learning

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provision. Creating structural change across the entire post 16

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education landscape so it is more efficient. Guaranteeing wider

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access including Loring so she'll economic barriers. Maintaining

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Scotland's World bidding position in university led research.

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Developing student support arrangements that are fair and

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affordable. Enjoying governance in universities has greater

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accountability for public funding. And simplifying the funding

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structures and flows for both higher and further education. I am

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pleased to deny to the parliament today that a plan to hold a review

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of the Government's other - - governance of a further education

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colleges. This will examine the quality and potential future

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contribution they can be made by enhanced governance structures for

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our colleges. The review will be led by Professor Russell great - -

:13:55.:14:05.
:14:05.:14:07.

Russel Griggs. I believe that the Government's instructor of colleges

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should a strong regard to democratic accountability. There

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must be world class leadership and scrutiny in order to support the

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economic and social role of colleges and what will be a very

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highly challenging future climate. I'll be asking Professor Griggs to

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give us recommendations. I'll be asking him to consider what

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improvements can be made to the democratic accountability of our

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colleges. What we teach and what we learn has played an important part

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in developing Scotland's people, economy and society. Education

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plays a central role in improving life chances, learning in all its

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forms has a wide reach. At one end of the spectrum it helps those

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furthest from the labour market to employments, the other gives high-

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level skills and work - - world leading research. These proposals

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for reform are ambitious and represent them a significant change

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since devolution and I believe they will transform for the better the

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education and training landscape, enhancing the life chances of all

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Scottish people. The first Earl of Birkenhead was Rector of Aberdeen

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University and in his address he said Scotland is renowned as the

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home of the most ambitious race in the worlds. A great compliment. I

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am ambitious for the people of Scotland and our proposals will

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ensure that those great ambitions are realised. Education makes

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The Cabinet secretary will take questions on the issues raced in

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the statement, I intend to allow round 20 minutes for questions,

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after which we will move on to next item of business. For those members

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who wish to ask the Cabinet secretary a question, could you

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please press your request to speak button now. Can I thank the minute

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For an advance copy of his statement. Can I broadly welcome

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the further information he has provided on the review of higher

:16:20.:16:25.

education and the announcement of a review into further education.

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Labour agree that we wish to see an improvement in accountability in

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these areas an we look forward to discussing proposals at a later

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stage. I am slightly taken aback by some of the ministers comment tons

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issue of fee charges forest of UK students. Which seem to beg more

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questions than answers. The minister has set the fee cap at

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�9,000 a year, but can I ask to clarify whether this applies over

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three years, or over the typical Scottish four year course. Does the

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Cabinet secretary accept that if it is open to principles, to set a

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four year charge of �9 thousand a year, the Cabinet secretary is in

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the ludicrous position of setting higher fierce Scotland than in

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England. Can I ask the Cabinet secretary will any university

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introducing the fees have to meet the criteria set by the Office of

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Fair Access, or are there no widening access obligations

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attached? On the principles behind his thinking here can I ask the him

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to clarify whether he see the primary purpose to deter fee

:17:31.:17:35.

refugees or as an income generator? If it is the former, does he plan

:17:35.:17:39.

to set a limit on the number of places available to rest of UK

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students? The minister began his statement by ruling out a market

:17:43.:17:47.

for higher education for Scottish students, but by allowing course by

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course and institution by institution flexibility over rest

:17:50.:17:54.

of UK fees, does the minister think it accept to believe create a

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market for English students? There are widespread fears some

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institutions tailor their courses according to available funding

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streams, for example research grants or the number of post grad

:18:06.:18:10.

students. How does he intend to prevent these same institutions for

:18:10.:18:13.

offering courses to fee payers from the rest of the UK which displace

:18:13.:18:17.

the courses that might be available to Scottish students? Finally, on

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the issue of charging EU students the statement is noticeable for the

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lack of any detail of how the Scottish Government will proceed,

:18:25.:18:31.

can he at least assure Parliament the plan he has come up with is

:18:31.:18:37.

lawful, as well as feasible within the boundarys of the European Union.

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If I can deal with that first. I made my statement, it is clear, to

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use the word within the boun cis of European law we will do our best to

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make progress on this. It is certainly lawful within Ireland

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writ occupy, where it operate, and I would have thought what was

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lawful in Ireland might be lawful here too. I am disappointed in his

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litany of questions, for vary the o of reason, first I hope he would

:19:02.:19:06.

join with me to say the best solution would be independence for

:19:06.:19:10.

Scotland, because in those circumstances we would be able to

:19:10.:19:14.

treat everybody ebg quit bli. We would have our own money raced and

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we could choose how to spend it. But we are not in that pofplgs he

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might reflect that the difficulty that have been created by decision

:19:21.:19:26.

sourt of -- south of the border we were set in train bay Labour

:19:26.:19:28.

Government which commissioned the Brown review and supported the

:19:28.:19:31.

outcomes of it. In those circumstances I think if there are

:19:31.:19:35.

problems, many of them lie at the door of the Labour Party. Well let

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us dip out of that and go straight to our Aberdeen studio where the

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new national President of the NUS in Scotland is there for us. Robin

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Parkerment you have been listening to that statement. What is your

:19:48.:19:52.

reaction to it? Yes, good afternoon. Well I think students are going to

:19:52.:19:57.

find the statement here a mixed bag. There is positives in there, but I

:19:57.:20:01.

am sure the new stories that is going to dominate the news pages

:20:01.:20:04.

and the broadcast this afternoon is about the charges for the rest of

:20:04.:20:10.

the UK students. I certainly share conis -- concerns this doesn't seem

:20:10.:20:14.

to be fully worked out. I think it is really port this debate remains

:20:14.:20:18.

round how we stop an influx of students for the rest of the UK

:20:18.:20:21.

coming into Scotland and how which protect access for students from

:20:21.:20:25.

Scotland. And we are far from convinced that the only way do that

:20:25.:20:29.

is to increase fees, and we need, we urgently need clarity round

:20:29.:20:33.

whether the plan is to make degrees in Scotland the most expensive

:20:33.:20:37.

degrees in the whole of the UK for students from the rest of the UK to

:20:37.:20:42.

come in and take. Were you surprised at the level of cap there,

:20:42.:20:48.

the 9,000 maximum fee, and of course, on a Scottish four year

:20:48.:20:53.

honours course, �36 thousand. are very concerned this could

:20:53.:20:55.

create the most expensive glees the whole of the UK at �36 thousand,

:20:55.:20:59.

that is, a huge amount of debt for students to be leaving university

:20:59.:21:04.

with, before we even get into the living costs that many student face

:21:04.:21:08.

here in Scotland. So �36 thousand is a huge amount to be paying for a

:21:08.:21:12.

degree, and we need to think through what this is going to mean

:21:12.:21:16.

in terms of access for students from the rest of UK. We are worried

:21:16.:21:20.

about, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy, in some

:21:20.:21:23.

students will be priced out of being able to afford come study in

:21:23.:21:26.

Scotland, through the creation of this market place in education for

:21:26.:21:33.

students from the rest of the UK. But do you not think the SNP

:21:33.:21:37.

Government have created the conditions, we do have to depend on

:21:37.:21:42.

other students coming in to help pay for that? I think it is really

:21:42.:21:46.

important that the debate remains round how we protect access and how

:21:46.:21:51.

we make sure that places are available. And it simply doesn't

:21:51.:21:55.

turn into a debate about how we can make certain groups of students

:21:55.:21:58.

into some form of cash cow or something like that. So I think it

:21:58.:22:02.

is important we stick to, we frame this debate round how we protect

:22:02.:22:08.

access, and maintain places. Now, there was some, a very short bit in

:22:08.:22:12.

the EU, the management fee. How do you think the Scottish Government

:22:12.:22:18.

can get round that? I, I am still far from convinced there is a way

:22:18.:22:24.

to work round the EU law on this. We will have to see how that

:22:24.:22:28.

progresses, but I think the comparison that Mike Russell made

:22:28.:22:31.

to the situation in Ireland is different once you start looking

:22:31.:22:35.

into the detail of it. I just don't think there is a way we will find a

:22:35.:22:38.

situation where you can have one system for Scottish students, and

:22:38.:22:43.

one for students from the rest of the EU. So we will have to wait to

:22:43.:22:49.

see how that plays out really. And wait for more detail really.

:22:49.:22:53.

thank you very much for joining us. Now, more than a third of public

:22:53.:22:56.

money in Scotland is spent on social problem, which could have

:22:56.:23:00.

been prevented in the first place, a new report has warned. The

:23:00.:23:04.

Christie Commission has warned services will buckle without more

:23:04.:23:08.

preventative measures to tackle inequality. Campbell Christie, the

:23:08.:23:12.

report's chairman joins me now. Thank you for joining me. Can you

:23:12.:23:16.

explain your main recommendations in your report? Well, I think it is

:23:16.:23:20.

important to set the scene first, and that is we were asked by the

:23:20.:23:25.

Government, to look at how public sever -- services are delivered in

:23:25.:23:29.

the medium to long-term, taking into account the fact that the

:23:30.:23:36.

fiscal position that we have, the demography increased demand there

:23:36.:23:40.

will be on public services and people live longer and require more

:23:40.:23:45.

support from public service and we were asked to look at that, and,

:23:45.:23:50.

and produce some recommendations, and, in relation to how we can

:23:50.:23:55.

maintain the quality of public service in that environment. We

:23:55.:24:03.

identified a number of key area, where we made recommendations, and

:24:03.:24:06.

there is three particular areas, where we think that we can do a lot

:24:06.:24:12.

better than we are doing currently. One is that it is clear that a lot

:24:12.:24:19.

of, there is a lot of anger round, and concern round, in Scotland, in

:24:19.:24:23.

communities, that public services are very much topped down they

:24:23.:24:28.

deliver what the top thinks we need, and if that doesn't fit, then it is

:24:28.:24:33.

too bad. So there is strong evidence from all the visits we did.

:24:33.:24:38.

All the people we spoke to, that empowering communities, to identify

:24:38.:24:43.

what it is they need, to work with the agencies as to what it is they

:24:43.:24:48.

need, within their own community, would release resources from

:24:48.:24:52.

provision being needed, in care homes and in emergency areas of

:24:52.:24:57.

hospitals and so on. That was one area we thought that with can

:24:57.:25:02.

improve the quality of public services, and it cost less, to

:25:02.:25:08.

provide. You did say in the report the prize is a personal centred

:25:08.:25:12.

system. We have seen a lot of the coverage of the report and there

:25:12.:25:15.

are accusations the report is very woolly and difficult to, there is

:25:15.:25:19.

nothing really definitive in this report. Well, I don't know who is

:25:19.:25:24.

saying that. It is not the reaction we have got, and I don't think it

:25:24.:25:29.

is the reaction that we have had from the agencies that are involved

:25:29.:25:36.

in public service, but let me finish. The second area, is, we

:25:36.:25:40.

have identified from the evidence that we have gather, that there is

:25:40.:25:44.

real concern about the duplication of the provision of service,

:25:44.:25:50.

different services are working in the same ya -- area, it is not

:25:50.:25:54.

clear whether they will pool budgets in order to get the best

:25:54.:25:59.

returns, so we have strongly said that Government should take action,

:25:59.:26:04.

to require people who are agencies, organisations providing public

:26:04.:26:08.

service, to work together with other public service agencies, so

:26:08.:26:12.

that they can deliver good quality services and avoid duplication and

:26:12.:26:17.

get better results. Has this not been tried in the past? You speak

:26:17.:26:20.

of people being in their silo, that has not been in past to get the

:26:20.:26:24.

public sector working together and it has not happened? Well, what we

:26:24.:26:27.

are saying to Government, they should require it to happen. That

:26:27.:26:32.

if services are going to, whether it is local authority, health

:26:32.:26:35.

boards or whoever, police service whoever, if you going to fund them

:26:35.:26:38.

there should be a requirement that the funding they will work with

:26:38.:26:42.

other agencies in order to provide a unified service and a better

:26:42.:26:46.

quality of service. The third area that he we identified as being

:26:46.:26:52.

important, is to, this need to identify and take action early, to

:26:52.:26:56.

prevent the development of particular problems over the years,

:26:56.:27:03.

now if we can do that, then the figure that has been produced about

:27:03.:27:09.

40% of spend in many public service areas arises from the fact that

:27:09.:27:18.

preventative action wasn't taken. That could be how we ensure that

:27:18.:27:22.

elderly people get the vervis -- service they need in their own home,

:27:22.:27:28.

so avoid the need to go into care, to go into care homes or to go into

:27:28.:27:32.

emergency areas in hospital, which is costly. So that is one area.

:27:32.:27:35.

That is a co-point in your report actually, that Americaning of

:27:35.:27:40.

health and Social Services, and you did make that point. That merging.

:27:40.:27:43.

There was another report from NESTA who made the same recommendation

:27:43.:27:47.

but they were putting forward a very strong recommendation that you

:27:47.:27:51.

should take that money out of acute services, to help fund that, but

:27:51.:27:58.

you have not gone that far. acute care is very important,

:27:58.:28:02.

people, people want to have good quality acute care, but what they

:28:02.:28:07.

don't want is to have it clogged up with people who are bed blocking

:28:07.:28:11.

because they can't get out, back into their own community because

:28:11.:28:14.

they are not in there are not the services in their community to care

:28:14.:28:20.

for them, so it is important that we, we don't allow that sort of

:28:20.:28:25.

thing to happen, so it is those areas, but it is earlier than that,

:28:25.:28:31.

for instance I am involved in Stirling, as chair of the urban

:28:32.:28:37.

regeneration company. We are helping young people who are not

:28:37.:28:40.

attending school, bad attender, we are bringing them into work with us

:28:40.:28:45.

as part of a big lot Iry arrangement, it is amazing the

:28:45.:28:49.

transformation of these young people in a work environment. How

:28:49.:28:54.

they blossom, how they go back home to their own areas feeling

:28:54.:28:59.

absolutely, that they have achieved something. If we do that more, we

:28:59.:29:03.

avoid this problem of those people ending up in prison, ending up with

:29:03.:29:06.

alcohol problem, drug problems or whatever, so you know, now, of

:29:06.:29:09.

course everyone will say, preventative care has been on the

:29:09.:29:13.

agenda for a long time. We now have a situation where we have

:29:13.:29:16.

Government power. We have five years to do it they have a majority,

:29:16.:29:26.
:29:26.:29:34.

Representatives of the six big power companies have been giving

:29:34.:29:36.

evidence to Holyrood's Economy Committee. Earlier this month,

:29:36.:29:38.

Scottish Power announced steep rises in the costs of gas and

:29:38.:29:41.

electricity and there's widespread concern that other companies will

:29:41.:29:44.

follow suit. MSPs began hearing an account of the scale of fuel

:29:44.:29:50.

poverty in Scotland. What percentage are reckoned to be

:29:50.:30:00.
:30:00.:30:03.

in fuel poverty? A about a third. Be 34 %. That is using government

:30:03.:30:13.
:30:13.:30:16.

figures. We have asked someone in the Commission for sustainable

:30:16.:30:22.

energy to estimate if every energy company followed the example of

:30:22.:30:32.
:30:32.:30:33.

Scottish Power. Basically, it would put a hundred and �75 a year on to

:30:33.:30:41.

the average bill. It would increase fuel poverty from 34 % up to the 37

:30:41.:30:46.

% and take us back to the baseline position that we were in 1999, so

:30:46.:30:51.

all the good work that has begun will be back to square one. Over a

:30:51.:30:58.

five-year period the price for both gas and electricity is the same.

:30:58.:31:08.

Why have the retail cost gone up by so much? I think that it is

:31:08.:31:12.

misleading to take a particular point in time. You can choose

:31:12.:31:17.

different points in time and you will get different relationships

:31:17.:31:22.

because wholesale and retail movements take place at different

:31:22.:31:28.

times, so depending on precisely when you pick you can get a variety

:31:28.:31:37.

of different relationships. As far as Scottish Power is concerned, the

:31:37.:31:42.

accounts but we are filing with the regulator show that after the last

:31:42.:31:47.

two years we have made an average of �10 selling gas and electricity

:31:47.:31:57.

on a typical annual bill of �1,000 for a dual fuel customer.

:31:57.:32:02.

percent is huge in fuel poverty. How much importance to you placing

:32:02.:32:08.

on that? The place enormous importance on it. We spent more

:32:08.:32:16.

relative to our market share than any other supplier. There is a

:32:16.:32:23.

voluntary agreement in existence at the moment. British Gas has spent

:32:23.:32:30.

�227 million on that in the last three years against an obligation

:32:30.:32:36.

of �100 million less. A third of our entire spend for this is going

:32:36.:32:46.
:32:46.:32:49.

to Scotland and 10 % of all our fund for improving housing stock.

:32:49.:32:54.

As an industry have not done as good a job as we should have done

:32:54.:32:59.

on explaining to her own consumers and the country as a whole the

:32:59.:33:06.

fundamental shifts going on in energy supply. The way this is

:33:06.:33:11.

accelerating a do think that over the next 12 months, the government,

:33:11.:33:16.

consumer bodies, suppliers need to get together and come up with

:33:16.:33:25.

better communications. Tomorrow will see tens of thousands of

:33:25.:33:28.

public service workers go on strike over changes the UK government

:33:28.:33:31.

plans to make to their pensions. While England and Wales are likely

:33:31.:33:34.

to see huge disruption to schools, up to 30,000 Scottish workers in

:33:34.:33:36.

places including jobcentres, tax offices and courts will withdraw

:33:36.:33:39.

their labour. Those workers are in the PCS union, and their Scottish

:33:39.:33:44.

Secretary Lynn Henderson joins me now.

:33:44.:33:49.

Some of the destruction we might see tomorrow, will be the extent do

:33:49.:33:55.

you think? Places like Jobcentres will be closed, tax offices will be

:33:55.:34:01.

closed, coastguard stations will be affected, the Scottish Parliament

:34:01.:34:06.

staff will be out on strike. A number of government offices around

:34:06.:34:13.

the country will Quine to a halt. you're striking over pensions. The

:34:13.:34:17.

Prime Minister said you can stick your head into the sand when it

:34:17.:34:22.

comes to public sector pension reform. He is pointing at the cost

:34:22.:34:27.

every family in the UK at �1,000 to pay for public sector pensions. Do

:34:27.:34:36.

not pick it is time for reform? That is a flawed analysis. Our

:34:36.:34:41.

strike is not just on pensions, it is on pay and jobs because civil

:34:41.:34:46.

servants are also facing do you pay freezes and 100 seats - - hundreds

:34:47.:34:52.

of thousands of job cuts in the next few years. It is more than

:34:52.:34:57.

just the pensions issue. We maintain the civil service pension

:34:57.:35:01.

scheme has been proven to be affordable, sustainable and will

:35:01.:35:06.

reducing cost. It is not necessary to make these changes at all unless

:35:06.:35:11.

it is an idea - - ideological attack, which are days. With the

:35:11.:35:14.

rise in living standards and people living longer, it is clear that the

:35:14.:35:18.

doors need to be reformed because it seems these penchant or simply

:35:18.:35:25.

an affordable. That is not what Lord Hutton says. But is not what

:35:26.:35:30.

the public affairs committee says and not what the Institute of

:35:30.:35:36.

Fiscal Studies says. It is not just me saying that, these are

:35:36.:35:40.

economists out there that agree that the public sector pensions are

:35:40.:35:44.

affordable and be maintained at this as an attack on us for

:35:44.:35:54.

ideological reasons. The think tank says that a demographic time bomb

:35:54.:36:01.

is ticking. We know that as public servants, who worked to protect

:36:01.:36:10.

people in elderly care. We co- operate with government, they are

:36:10.:36:20.

Our employers and we deliver the services. We have an alternative

:36:20.:36:25.

which is called Pax justice. Looking at the destruction that

:36:25.:36:30.

will take place tomorrow. The destruction of the airport will hit

:36:30.:36:34.

Scottish passengers very badly. The general secretary said there could

:36:34.:36:39.

be a risk to border security and passengers would be protected

:36:39.:36:43.

financially at the end up missing their flights. Why are you letting

:36:43.:36:49.

the people down who pay your salaries? The people who pay our

:36:49.:36:55.

salaries that are our members as well. We have the right to withdraw

:36:55.:37:00.

labour and we have agreed to the public support. Yes, there will be

:37:00.:37:06.

disruption at the airports and we say to the public we are terribly

:37:06.:37:10.

sorry about that but you must make sure that the government changes

:37:10.:37:16.

its mind and properly negotiates. Member sub the public could do end

:37:16.:37:26.
:37:26.:37:26.

up paying your salaries, people who work and a high streets, lots of

:37:26.:37:30.

people in the High Street are having big changes in their pension.

:37:30.:37:34.

People in the private sector are having to bear that burden. People

:37:34.:37:44.

in the private sector are also depending on... the taxpayer is

:37:44.:37:50.

also funding private pensions. We also represent people in the

:37:50.:37:57.

commercial sector, privatised sectors. We stand together with

:37:57.:38:01.

other unions and workers who want to make sure that the workers of

:38:01.:38:05.

the day and attention at of tomorrow are properly looked after.

:38:05.:38:09.

As summer of disruption has been promised by the unions. What will

:38:09.:38:17.

be your next disruption, do you think? We have not promised at

:38:17.:38:21.

summer of destruction. We have got a 24 hour strike starting at

:38:21.:38:25.

midnight tonight and we will follow that up with a month-long ban on

:38:25.:38:29.

overtime. There will then talk to other unions about getting the

:38:30.:38:36.

government back to the table. If that is not the case we have legal

:38:36.:38:40.

cases out against the changes and are prepared to work together to

:38:40.:38:44.

take industrial action in the autumn.

:38:44.:38:47.

The Finance Secretary, John Swinney, is making a statement to MSPs at

:38:47.:38:52.

Holyrood now. It's on what's called the financial out-turn, which means

:38:52.:38:58.

how much the Government spent compared to their budget. Let's

:38:58.:39:04.

cross again live to the Debating Chamber.

:39:04.:39:09.

An underspend on this Budget cannot be used to buy goods and services.

:39:09.:39:13.

It does not reflect the missed opportunity to spend more on public

:39:13.:39:22.

services. The 2010 and 11 out turn white paper is due to be published

:39:22.:39:24.

in July in which the fiscal underspend for the Scottish

:39:24.:39:30.

government will go on record as �12 million, along with the �86 million

:39:30.:39:35.

non-cash understand. I want to take this opportunity to up to its

:39:35.:39:39.

parliament about other under Spence. The Scottish government has been

:39:39.:39:47.

able to carry forward any unspent Budget to future years. Ensure

:39:47.:39:53.

flexibility was abolished as part of the 2010 UK spending review. The

:39:53.:39:58.

Scottish government had drawn down pretty much all of its balances in

:39:58.:40:04.

the year up to the end of 2010 and 11. Its cash balance at this stage

:40:04.:40:11.

stood at only �22 million, in contrast with Northern Ireland at

:40:11.:40:15.

�295 million and the Welsh government at �164 million.

:40:15.:40:25.
:40:25.:40:25.

Consequently, wily - - the impact on public expenditure in Scotland

:40:25.:40:29.

is relatively small due to the success of our negotiations with

:40:29.:40:36.

the Treasury. The Budget exchange mechanism has been set out by the

:40:36.:40:41.

Treasury. This would allow some scope to transfer budgets to future

:40:41.:40:44.

years and would have to be declared as part of our spring Budget

:40:44.:40:48.

revision process. The detailed technical rules that the Treasury

:40:48.:40:55.

has imposed great a risk that some avoidable underspent - -

:40:55.:40:59.

unavoidable under his friends would not be available in future. Along

:40:59.:41:03.

with my eight finance ministers from Wales and Northern Ireland I

:41:03.:41:08.

am so continuing to discuss with the Treasury to ensure that we have

:41:08.:41:12.

the right to spend the budgets allocated to us in the UK spending

:41:12.:41:17.

review and they are not lost so Scottish public services. This is

:41:17.:41:20.

especially important at that time when the UK government is already

:41:20.:41:25.

reducing the total resources available to us. This issue

:41:25.:41:27.

underlines the problems of the current fiscal arrangements whereby

:41:27.:41:31.

we have to wait for the UK to decide how Scotland should best

:41:31.:41:36.

manage its own Budget and are subject to a Treasury rules and

:41:36.:41:41.

changes to these rules and which we are not consulted. Given this

:41:41.:41:43.

uncertainty about future arrangements am pleased to be able

:41:43.:41:51.

to announce today such a low underspend of �12 million. I

:41:51.:41:54.

commend these outturn figures to the chamber. They demonstrate the

:41:54.:41:59.

firm, - - demonstrate the firm grip that this government has some

:41:59.:42:06.

public finances. We have been faced with ever increasing challenges

:42:06.:42:11.

over public finances. Our response has required competence and a

:42:11.:42:15.

commitment to building effective partnerships across this Parliament

:42:15.:42:19.

and across the public sector in Scotland. We will not alter from

:42:19.:42:24.

this course as a litter the future. The outcome of the UK spending

:42:24.:42:31.

review places severe pressures on future Scottish budgets. But 2014

:42:31.:42:37.

the Scottish at Dell will be 12 % below its 2010 level in real terms.

:42:37.:42:43.

Within that our capital Dell will fall by 35 % over this period. We

:42:43.:42:48.

will continue to make your argued that the UK government has cutting

:42:48.:42:52.

public expenditure too far and too fast. It is against this background

:42:52.:42:55.

we have already published a Budget for this financial year that

:42:55.:43:00.

addresses the cuts imposed upon us, cuts of �1 billion, while delivered

:43:00.:43:05.

on key priorities in the economy, the environment and public services

:43:05.:43:10.

and building parliamentary support for our approach. Alf Young is

:43:10.:43:18.

still with us. What do you make of that so far, Alf? It is 12 million

:43:18.:43:24.

underspent and a Budget of 28 billion. To miss your Budget by 12

:43:24.:43:32.

million out of such a massive number is pretty good going. That

:43:32.:43:36.

argument brewing is that in past years if you did underspend you

:43:36.:43:40.

could roll it over and use it the following year. He is saying with

:43:40.:43:44.

budgets being squeezed going forwards it would be quite nice to

:43:44.:43:48.

take that 12 million and use it going forward but the Treasury has

:43:48.:43:58.
:43:58.:43:58.

changed the arrangements Anne's the other devolved ministers are trying

:43:58.:44:02.

to say to the Treasury, look this is not in the spirit of things that

:44:02.:44:05.

you are not going to let us have that because we didn't quite manage

:44:06.:44:10.

to spend precisely the amount that we were allocated. It is a fair

:44:10.:44:14.

point because the rules apparently were changed on a unilateral basis

:44:15.:44:20.

with the discussion. Maybe it is part of George Osborne turning the

:44:20.:44:24.

screw. It does not help to lose that 12 million, although it is

:44:24.:44:32.

tiny in relation to the amount So, are you thinking that Mr

:44:32.:44:38.

Swinney has managed to do well in getting it down �12 million? Given

:44:38.:44:43.

how complex a budget leek that is and how many areas it gets spent on

:44:43.:44:50.

to, get it wrong, to underspend it by �12 million out of 28 and a bit

:44:50.:44:55.

billion is pretty good going. you can see more of John Swinney's

:44:55.:44:59.

statement on our website. But first of all back to the story about

:44:59.:45:08.

funding for higher education, in Edinburgh we have Alastair Sim.

:45:08.:45:12.

Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me. First, what was your

:45:12.:45:18.

reaction to Mr Russell's statement there, about the �9 million cap fee

:45:18.:45:21.

four students coming from England? Think he is doing the right thing

:45:21.:45:25.

at the right time. We have been saying urgent action need to be

:45:25.:45:30.

taken so we have a managable cross border flow, so we are able to

:45:30.:45:33.

welcome people from the rest of UK but not to become the cheap option

:45:34.:45:37.

and become swamped. I think he has done the right thing and he has

:45:37.:45:41.

done the timely thing so universities can get on with making

:45:41.:45:46.

fee setting decisions, to give learners certainty to what is going

:45:46.:45:51.

to apply to them. We are not the cheap option, we are probably the

:45:51.:45:56.

expensive option. With the set cap of �9,000 peran nem numb it could

:45:56.:46:02.

mean students from London could be paying �36,000 to study at Glasgow.

:46:02.:46:05.

In fact Scotland could become one of the most expensive places to

:46:05.:46:09.

study on a four year course? have only had this announcement

:46:09.:46:14.

today so we don't know what decision institutions are going to

:46:14.:46:19.

make, those decision will be affected by the fact our

:46:19.:46:22.

universities want to attract good students from across the UK. They

:46:23.:46:27.

will need to be able to settifies that enable them to continue to do

:46:27.:46:30.

so I don't think we will necessarily see the sort of rush to

:46:30.:46:35.

the top that there has been in England, but it does give

:46:35.:46:38.

flexibility. Medical degrees, typically the same length in

:46:38.:46:42.

Scotland as in England. It allows you potentially to set a fee that

:46:42.:46:46.

puts you exactly on par with what is happening in the rest of the UK.

:46:46.:46:50.

Makes it is a fair choice. But as you pointed out, we did see a

:46:50.:46:54.

troush the top in England, why do you think that won't be the case in

:46:54.:46:59.

Scotland? And could it be very obvious then, if we have some

:46:59.:47:05.

universities charging maybe, 3 or 4,000 and some charging 9,000. It

:47:05.:47:09.

gives a variable look at universities in Scotland doesn't it.

:47:09.:47:12.

I don't know what decision they are going to make. We have only had

:47:12.:47:16.

this announcement today, but I think the decisions they make will

:47:16.:47:21.

be conditioned by what has happened down sou. I mean, there is no point

:47:21.:47:25.

in Scottish universities generally setting their fees for students in

:47:25.:47:30.

the rest of the UK, at a level that makes them uncompetitive choice for

:47:30.:47:33.

the able people from all sorts of backgrounds we want to continue to

:47:33.:47:39.

welcome to Scotland. Mr Ruthle was vague about the EU management fee,

:47:39.:47:43.

the fee for students coming from the European Union. How do you

:47:43.:47:47.

think he will get round that legally? That is for him and his

:47:47.:47:50.

legal team to look at. We are supportive of him looking at it. I

:47:50.:47:56.

mean we think it is only fair, that you know, given that students in

:47:56.:47:59.

France, Netherlands, rierbld, wherever, are generally having to

:47:59.:48:04.

make a contribution to the costs of their own -- university education.

:48:04.:48:07.

We think it is fair enough they should be able to make some

:48:07.:48:11.

contribution to the cost of the university education in Scotland.

:48:11.:48:15.

So, we are fully supportive of the Scottish Government looking at this,

:48:15.:48:19.

but it really is going to take them, I think at Mike Russell indicated

:48:19.:48:24.

some effort with their lawyers to find way doffing this, that is

:48:24.:48:30.

going to be robust. Finally, Mr Russell was saying he was going to

:48:30.:48:35.

look at university governance, there is that review group who is

:48:35.:48:39.

going to examine university, do you feel that Mr Russell is gunning for

:48:39.:48:44.

universities at the moment? Gunning for the top tyre in universities?

:48:44.:48:49.

Do you think Gunning for the management? I don't think so. I

:48:49.:48:54.

draw great confidence from the fact he has appointed one of my members

:48:54.:48:59.

to lead this review, now I don't think we have anything to be

:48:59.:49:02.

worried about from the university perspective. Look at the

:49:02.:49:06.

competition over governing bodies at the moment. On average, 40% are

:49:06.:49:10.

drawn from the staff and communities we really are visible

:49:10.:49:16.

and accountable in our governance. Yes, by all means let us look at it,

:49:16.:49:20.

but I don't think a review is going to find there is a fundamental

:49:20.:49:24.

problem, I think the review is going the find out we have robust

:49:24.:49:26.

governance that enables universities to make the decisions

:49:26.:49:32.

that need to be made, in tough times, and that brings in a wide

:49:32.:49:38.

range of ability, and perspective from staff, students in the wider

:49:38.:49:41.

community. I think we have a strong foundation we are buildinging on

:49:41.:49:45.

and of course we are open to looking at how that might be

:49:45.:49:50.

improved. -- building. Thank you very much for joining us. Now, the

:49:50.:49:55.

new leadership of Aberdeen City Council has been agreed. The SNP's

:49:55.:50:00.

Callum McCaig becomes one of the youngest council leaders at only 26.

:50:00.:50:07.

A business plan to save 120 million overify years is also expected to

:50:07.:50:12.

be rubber-stamped. Our reporter is in our Aberdeen studio. Good

:50:12.:50:15.

afternoon Colin. So Callum McCaig has been confirmed in post? Yes,

:50:15.:50:19.

good news for him. He is the youngest council leader as you say

:50:19.:50:24.

in Britain, not in the UK, in Britain it is 29-year-old gentleman

:50:24.:50:29.

in York, and the mayor of Belfast is 25. But he has been confirmed in

:50:30.:50:35.

post, he is 26 years old, very young, some would say inexperience

:50:35.:50:40.

but has been a kouns lo for four years and was convener of the

:50:40.:50:43.

Education Committee so he is not wet behind the ear, eand he has a

:50:43.:50:47.

lot of respect from colleagues and his party. That is the thing. A lot

:50:47.:50:53.

has been made about his age but he seems determined he can do a good

:50:53.:50:58.

job for the city. He says age should be no barrier, he says what

:50:58.:51:04.

age should a councillor be. There is evidence, I am sure we can give

:51:04.:51:08.

example, probably older and wiser heads have made mistakes for

:51:08.:51:12.

council. Callum McCaig comes to this job with an open mind, he says

:51:12.:51:16.

that he will be looking at it, taking advice from his elders and

:51:16.:51:21.

people with more experience, but he wants to take Aberdeen Council for

:51:21.:51:25.

ward. He has had the experience, as I say, he came in when he was

:51:25.:51:30.

elected in 2007, along with three other very young SNP councillors,

:51:30.:51:38.

he is one of that young batch, an of course this isn't unprecedented.

:51:38.:51:43.

Euan Dough was head of Tayside council in 1994 and he was only 22.

:51:43.:51:48.

They have got some very urgent business to attend to, that massive

:51:48.:51:52.

savings plan they have to agree to Absolutely. The five year plan.

:51:52.:51:57.

This is his biggest headache. It is still being considered. It has not

:51:57.:52:01.

been rumer stamped ath as yet. The council has made hundreds of

:52:01.:52:04.

millions of pounds worth of cuts over the last three or four year,

:52:04.:52:09.

over the next five years they are having to rationalise services,

:52:09.:52:12.

they are making �120 million, that is, what they are facing over five

:52:12.:52:17.

year, the unions won't be happy, some are saying that if it goes

:52:17.:52:20.

ahead it will be like a declaration of war. So we can expect some

:52:20.:52:24.

troubled times ahead for Callum McCaig, there are there were

:52:25.:52:27.

protestors outside the meeting to give him a taste of that. That

:52:27.:52:30.

wasn't about the Fife year plan that, was about the controversial

:52:31.:52:35.

plans for the redevelopment of union terrace gardens in the centre

:52:35.:52:38.

of Aberdeen that. Is another of the many headaches this young man will

:52:38.:52:43.

have to face over the coming five years. Lots going on in Aberdeen.

:52:43.:52:47.

Thank you for joining us. It has been a busy day in Scottish

:52:47.:52:52.

politics. Alf Young is still here. Let us go back to the higher

:52:52.:52:55.

education statement from Mike Russell. Were you surprised at this

:52:55.:53:01.

level of a �9,000 capped variable fee? I was surprised on two count,

:53:01.:53:05.

that he went as high as a figure south of the border, but he is

:53:05.:53:09.

leaving it open to the university to decide how much they charge, and

:53:09.:53:13.

you would have thought that for universities like Edinburgh or St

:53:13.:53:15.

Andrews which have large numbers of students from south of the border

:53:15.:53:19.

coming to them at the moment, they would probably be pitching at the

:53:19.:53:23.

high end. And the other thing that surprised me about it, was that he

:53:23.:53:28.

said there has to be some kind of analysis done of how the money gets

:53:28.:53:31.

spread to the other universities, that is an interesting point.

:53:31.:53:36.

you very much for joining us. And that is it from us, today and for

:53:36.:53:42.

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