31/10/2015 Scottish Labour Party Conference

Hello and a very warm welcome to our live coverage of the Scottish Labour

conference. Labour are meeting at the Perth concert tour. After a

catastrophic showing at the general election, there is a lot of work to

be done if they are face a similar wipe-out at Holyrood in May.

I'm here in Perth to bring you all the latest news, comment and

analysis and who knows? Maybe a little Halloween stuff as well.

Scottish Labour have chosen to meet over the Halloween weekend and

there's plenty to scare them in the years ahead. The polls suggest

they're showing ads may's Scottish Parliamentary election may be even

worse than the general election. They will be looking for is on

witchcraft from the new leadership team of Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy

Corbyn, or Kez and Jez as they were dubbed yesterday their political

nightmare is not continue. Ryan Taylor is that the conference

centre. We have set the bar on Halloween jokes and very low

indeed! What is the mood there like? I think some of them are going to go

out guising than listening to the conference. Jeremy Corbyn did his

speech yesterday and we're getting Kezia Dugdale later with an

announcement on her idea of restoring full Scotland are tax

credits which are due to be reduced by the UK Government, and paying for

that by withholding the idea of removing some tax benefits from

other taxpayers. Basically, the Chancellor is proposing to increase

the threshold at which people move into the upper tax rate and Kezia

Dugdale is saying that if Labour are returned to power at Holyrood, once

the new full tax powers come in, quite probably in 2017, Labour would

bring in the increase in the thresholds, which would bring in

extra money. They also won't go ahead with the SNP proposal of

cutting air passenger duty when it is devolved. Kezia Dugdale believes

this fits into a wider pattern of firstly, using the new powers that

are coming Holyrood's Way and secondly, using them in a way, she

would argue, that is redistributive and progressive. Brian, I'm curious

as to what the overall vibes are. Is it, "oh, my God, have you looked at

the opinion polls? This is awful". Or is it, "we have got Jeremy Corbyn

and it is all new and exciting". They are apprehensive and concerned.

They are also determined to fight back if they possibly can. Are they

certain that Jeremy Corbyn is the vehicle to produce that fight back?

Well, for the most part, no. They gave him a very warm ovation when he

arrived in the hall and then when he had spoken and indeed, T gave them

an ovation back, by applauding, which is perhaps an intriguing

mechanism. But nonetheless come his speech went down very well. But you

spoke to delegate afterwards and they wonder what, other than the

straightforward pitch to the left-wing vote, they wonder how much

of that there is in their which spreads the remit of the party and

broadens the approach of the party, after they lost very badly, as he

reminded us, in the UK general elections in May? There's only a few

months to go before they have to avoid air, double defeat at Holyrood

next May. What about the whole business of making the Labour Party

in Scotland more autonomous? Again, I'm curious. Is the view, "this is

great, we are going to get homework". Or is it, "for heaven's

say, this is the last thing the Labour Party should be concerned

about"? Kezia Dugdale's calculation is that one of the elements that was

hitting them on the doorsteps is that, "you are not a Scottish body,

you are ruled from London", the branch office scenario that Johann

Lamont, one of her predecessors, famously referred to. Kezia Dugdale,

the current leader believes they have two tackle that, address it

first, to be seen as a Scottish party in order to get a hearing at

all on the doorsteps, to get their ideas across about health,

education, taxation and the rest. She reckons they have to get over

that hurdle first and prove themselves a Scottish party. You are

right, there have been several attempts to do this in the past.

They will debate Trident tomorrow and members chose it as the most

popular priority for them and they will debate it tomorrow at

conference but I'm old enough to remember in the 80s and 90s, the

Scottish Labour conference, often in Perth, at the old City Hall, here

and elsewhere, they would regularly vote against Trident and it was

regularly and routinely ignored by the UK leadership of the party.

Sometimes in a supportive manner, sometimes in a friendly patronising

manner. I wonder what changes in regards to that? Kezia Dugdale

insists it is about autonomy, standing on the side of the Scottish

people and projecting a completely Scottish identity and giving

priority to Hollywood as well. OK, Brian, back with you shortly. I'm

joined for the duration of the programme by Professor John that is

from the politics department at Strathclyde University. John, let's

start with the big picture. If you are Kezia Dugdale, you have got a

heck of a job to do. It is a very large dog and you now seem to face

an even bigger mountain to climb than the party had back in December,

when Jim Murphy took over the party in December of last year. It's an

enormous problem. To give you some idea, we thought that what had

happened to the Scottish Labour Party in 2011 was bad enough, but at

least they got around a third of the vote on the constituency ballot.

They went down to around a quarter in last May's general election and

at the moment, the opinion polls are saying they don't have much more

than a fifth of the vote. To give you some idea of potentially how

serious this is, if the opinion polls for next May's Scottish

Parliamentary elections were to be realised at the ballot box, we are

talking about a 9% swing from Labour to the SNP, as compared with the

disastrous result of May 2011. If that were to be replicated in every

constituency in Scotland, the Labour Party would no longer have any

constituency MPs in the Holyrood parliament. In other words, the

party would find itself in exactly the same position as the

Conservatives were in in 1999, in that Scottish Parliamentary election

when they did not win any constituency seats and they were

Holyrood Alliance on the proportional part of the system to

be represented at Holyrood at all. One has to say that would be an

extraordinarily embarrassing outcome for the Scottish Labour Party if it

transpired. You mention the Conservatives. Some of them are

perhaps getting overexcited but very excited and sniffing that perhaps,

just perhaps they could end up being the main opposition in Scotland.

They are sniffing around that but I don't think they should get too

excited. The truth is, on average, the opinion polls still put the

Conservatives around 15% which is where they were in May 2011 and the

Labour Party is slightly above 20%. There is not any evidence of the

Conservative Party being any stronger in Scotland, insofar as it

is now begins to look as though there might be a bit of a race as to

who will be the second largest party in Scotland, it is simply a

reflection of how far the Labour Party have fallen, not any evidence

of Conservative increase. Back with John in a moment but now, Brian has

been joined by Scottish Labour's sole surviving member of the UK

Parliament. Quite right, the last man standing

as he wants to Scrafton .com Ian Murray, Secretary of State in

Scotland. Thank you for joining us. We will get Kezia Dugdale's speech

shortly but congratulations on your 's beach yesterday. You mentioned

economic growth, unlike Jeremy Corbyn but I think you got away with

it. What I was trying to do yesterday was saying that the

Scottish Labour Party is the party of making sure that everyone in this

society has the best Adonai. The point I was making quite clearly is

you can't do that without a strong economy and generating wealth to be

redistributed and without money for public services. Jeremy and I are on

the same page. You made no reference to economic growth and Ed Miliband

got pelted for not mentioning authority -- austerity and the

deficit and Jeremy Corbyn did not mention the commie. He had a didn't

star, he wanted to show that Scottish Labour was going back to

its traditional Scottish values and show a distinction between what we

are thinking about doing and what we want to do as the party looking to

get into the government what the SNP are doing into that their rhetoric.

They talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. That was the purpose

of his speech. It was not an economic speech. I did a bit of

business and economy in mind. Turning to the business of new

powers, you are the shadow Scottish secretary, and there is only one of

you on the Labour benches but do you expect the Scotland Bill to go

through? There are suggestions further amendments, perhaps from the

Secretary of State, objections that there is still potentially a veto

over the new benefit powers in practice. What do you make about the

latter issue? Do you expect it to go ahead? I'm really excited about the

Scotland Bill. It's a massive opportunity for Scotland but also

for the government to get this right. We have said all along, we

will the government in getting the Scotland Bill through but it has do

make sure the Smith agreement is delivered in full and we want to go

further on welfare provisions. What do you need to meet Smith? I want

the welfare provisions to allow Scotland to be able to top up any

reserve benefit. The Treasury say no. They say they can't do that but

I want the devolved benefits to be introduced in the new devolved areas

if the Scottish allotment which to do so. That would satisfy Smith. Are

you confident that will happen? I think so because the Secretary of

State has heeded the warning, and not just my SNP colleagues as well,

he's got tonight and tomorrow to get it right and if he brings them on

Monday, we will support it. Assuming this goes ahead and we get the

benefit powers devolved and implemented in Scotland, Kezia

Dugdale is giving an example this afternoon of how Labour would use

them. Absolutely, she's going to have a very steely approach. She

wants Scotland to first look at the Labour Party and take a fresh look

at Kezia Dugdale and say that this is someone who is stealing and can

make tough, radical positions for the party and the country. It is the

offer to make sure that everyone who is on tax credits at the moment

maintains them. We will pay through at -- for that through not taking

the cuts to air passenger duty and not implementing the increase in the

threshold for the upper rate of income tax. It is salaries of

?42,000 plus which will pay more? No one will pay more but they won't

benefit from an introduction of the increase in Breschel. No one in

Scotland will pay more tax to implement the policy but this is a

steely and radical approach from Kezia Dugdale, Diousse the new

powers, passionately for the values we believe in. Make sure people

maintain their tax credit income and do that by making sure nobody pays

any more tax but we can use the savings from other proposals on the

Scottish Government and from the UK Government to pay for the policy. To

be clear, under your plan, middle to high earners would pay more, not

more than they currently pay but more than would be levied in

England. Higher rate taxpayers will pay not a penny more. But more than

their counterparts in England? Their counterparts in England may well pay

less because the Chancellor wants to extend the Breschel to ?50,000. On

the tax credit proposal, is it the current operation of tax credits,

you are not proposing to revert to the previous, more generous Labour

scheme where people earning up to maybe ?50,000 or ?60,000 per year

could get tax credits? We are costing it on where we are today but

the House of Lords won the vote on Monday which has sent the Chancellor

a way to think again with regard to the tax credit proposal. He is to

put in mitigation measures for the poorest for the next three years

which would make it more affordable, if he was able to do some of the

mitigation himself. We have costed it on where we are today so it may

be even easier to deliver if the Chancellor Jane kisses mind. Moving

to the issue of Trident -- Chancellor changes his

to the issue of Trident -- you advocated from the dispatch box

in the House of Commons? We are going through the process at UK

Parliament level as well, for the Labour Party to look and address all

of our policies. The current UK party policy is still to renew

Trident as a minimum nuclear deterrent. As a member of the Shadow

Cabinet, would you have do stay with that for now? I have already said I

would break the whip and not vote to renew Trident but that is my

personal position. I will be making strong arguments tomorrow and if the

Scottish Labour Party decide they don't

Scottish Labour Party decide they Davis, umpteen others make the point

that how can you be a separate, autonomous party when actually, in

terms of the electoral registration rules, you are just an accounting

unit of the UK Labour Party? They have got a quote from the electoral

commission, "the commission does not hold a constitution for the Scottish

Labour Party per se, since they are not separately registered with us,

they are registered for GB as a whole". That won't change, will it?

This is a topic of great interest. What is the answer? I said a few

times, I'm not advocating for a separate Scottish Labour Party.

That's quite important. This is a stronger Scottish Labour Party,

better equipped to represent England within the UK. Not autonomous in the

sense of being a separate party? We are a separate accounting unit and

we have do provide our own accounts and report in the way you would

expect. We appear on a ballot paper as the Scottish Labour Party, that

is beyond all doubt. But I want to be part of the wider UK labour

movement. They say that you appear on the ballot as Scottish Labour but

you are an accounting unit of the wider Labour Party which is

registered, which means it is the Labour Party manifesto upon which

you must stand, not necessarily an autonomous Scottish manifesto?

I have seen this debated over Twitter and a few people linked to

that website which I don't consider reputable. A few journalists went to

the Electoral Commission and said they suggestion that the Scottish

Labour Party couldn't have different policy positions because what's on

the website was utter nonsense, it was refuted by the Electoral

Commission. Let's stick with that policy question, the idea of

policies. Say you have a distinct policy in Scotland say on Trident or

national insurance or whatever, it is. Different from the policy that's

held south of the border and you go to, not a Scottish election, you go

to a UK election, you couldn't have two policies on Trident north and

south of the border when you're standing all to be elected as Labour

members in the United Kingdom House of Commons? I think it is very

important that the Scottish Labour Party sets out its own policy

direction and there maybe occasions where we choose to take a different

path from the rest of the UK party. So what happens in that situation, I

have heard people say, "How are you going to make sure it is clear to

people what they are voting for?" What I would say to that, this is

not a brand-new concept. This happens in European countries all

the time. Particularly in countries that have a more sort of federal

system of operation. There are two different ways that you can approach

this. One is on the proactive cases, for example, a manifesto everybody

expects to know what's in the detail of the manifesto. There might be

different positions and you go through a processed and this is

referenced in the statement that I put together with Jeremy Corbyn

where various stakeholders will work through the detail. And there will

be a single manifesto position that everyone at a UK general election,

you would be standing on a single manifesto? Well, if you look at what

happens in European countries where there is a conflict that can't be

resolved, what you get to is a point of agreed abstention. I understand

that there is a degree of work still to be done here. The statement I

signed with Jeremy Corbyn recognises that we need to task people within

our movement to work out clearly what the protocol would be, I take

you back to the fact Brian, I think this simply has to happen. The

Scottish Labour Party has to be more atonne news, not because there is

any self interest as a party, but this would help us better represent

people the length and the breadth of the country. Gary Bennett, how could

you spend ?167 billion on Trident with proposed austerity measures

being implemented? Gavin Maxwell, with the cost of Trident rising to

?177 million, is it time to pull the plug on the project? I'm excited to

be here. We were going to do that. I'm going to put the power into the

hands of our members over the issue of Trident. We will have a priority

ballot this morning. We will know later today whether it will be

discussed on the conference floor on Sunday morning. But I understand the

strength of feeling on this issue. I recognise that there are different

views within the Labour Party on it. Do you think it is likely that the

Scottish conference will say no to Trident? I don't know that they are

going to pick it. But you yourself are in favour of retaining it? I am

a multi-lal trelist, I believe the best way to get rid of nuclear

weapons is with other countries around the world. Everybody in the

Labour Party is against nuclear weapons, it is how best you do that.

What you will see in the detail of this motion debate and in the text

of the debate if it is picked, the simple truth and Jeremy Corbyn said

this himself, if you choose not to renew Trident, every single penny of

that money that is saved, has to be invested in the communities that it

has come from. You sound as if you're getting ready for that

change? I'm open-minded as to what might happen this weekend. There is

a degree of honesty in this motion that you don't get any other party.

It can't be spent in 12 different ways like the SNP argue, it can't be

spent on alternative defence, it has to go back into the communities who

will lose out in terms of jobs and future investment. That's Jeremy

Corbyn's position and it is the most honest position. There is a Scottish

party conference says no to Trident, what if the rest of the Labour Party

says yes? That trumps it, doesn't it? No, I don't think so. If we have

a democratic process here at this party conference then what that

becomes is the position of the Scottish Labour Party. The UK that

would implement the withdrawal or the renewal of Trident and Scotland

would not form that UK Government? We are on to three hypotheticals

here. We don't know if it will be debated in conference, but we have

one Labour MP now. I would like there to be a tremendous number

more. Unless the remainder of the Labour Party agrees, the Scottish

party's view is irrelevant? That one Labour MP is opposed to the renewal

of Trident. Let me give you some quotations from 1992, the Herald,

1982, back strongly worded motions on a future Labour Government to

cancel Trident. The Labour Party in Scotland sent a message to Mr Neil

Kinnock that he must not abandon the commitment to unilateral nuclear

disarmament, Evening News 6th March, the Scottish Labour Party snubbed

Tony Blair. I could give you umpteen others. The Labour Party across the

UK paid not a blind bit of notice. That's like saying, "Why should the

SNP have a position on Trident because they will not be in the

position to push the Red Button." I have a strong mandate to lead this

party. I will make it more autonomous and that's what I'm going

to do this weekend. You are going to reach a Scottish position. The

Scottish position will be as it has been umpteen times in the past,

anti-Trident and the position will be or can be ignored by the UK

Labour Party because they have bigger clout and they form the UK

Government? This will be the position of the Scottish Labour

Party Conference, that's what I'm responsible for doing.

That interview was done yesterday before conference decided that they

One of the big issue at conference is the referendum on the EU.

Yesterday afternoon saw a fringe event chaired by

Lord George Foulkes on Labour's campaign to stay inside the EU.

Speaking to a packed audience, the MEP Catherine Stihler and

Mandy Telford from the union Community spoke

about how Labour could work with other socialists to better inform

the public about the benefits of being part of the European Union.

Here's a little more of what was said.

Deeper political co-operation has allowed the left in the UK to join

forces with our European counterparts and to achieve

protection for workers across 28 member states, that's quite

something. That's a real achievement and we should celebrate that. So it

is splintering the left, I believe in Europe, wouldn't serve the

objectives of the progressives, but rather weaken our attempts to effect

change to the benefit of the many, not the few.

The UK leaving the European Union would deprive the left of one voice

to benefit one Continent. Being part of the European Community has

changed our society. It has brought protection for workers and

investment for our industries. Equal pay for women a ban on sex

discrimination, rights for part-time workers and maternity and paternity

and the right to paid holiday. Global companies like Nissan and

Siemens choosing to set-up shop in Britain because of our continued EU

membership. The challenge for Europe is this, we are one 20th of the

world's population, with 20% of the world's wealth. That can't continue.

Wealth is moving east. The rise of China, the Brit countries with the

mint countries behind. So we have to ensure a productive and competitive

union so we have the best products, efficiently produced without

lowering wages and standards of living. To leave the EU is to

opt-out of the challenges and accept that Britain just falls behind.

Well, that was Mandy Telford from the union, Community speaking at a

yes to EU fringe event. Brian is with two delegates who want

to continue that debate on Europe. Thank you very much indeed. Yes, of

course, we don't know the date for the referendum. We don't know the

terms, but we know it is a gigantic choice for the whole of the UK

including Scotland. I'm joined by Catherine Stihler and Nigel

Griffiths. Catherine, why stay in the EU? Because we benefit from

being a member of the Union from the water quality we have, food quality,

food safety, jobs, there is a host of benefits, but it is about being

part of something bigger. We live in a global world and to walk away from

our closest neighbours is not in our interests. You are setting up Labour

Leave, why quit? Request leave? We have had 53 years of fail our of the

Common Agricultural Policy, 42 years of failure of the Common Fisheries

Policy and it is quite clear that there are threats now from

American-style multinationals to the rights of us to nationalise parts of

the NHS and bring back into public ownership parts of our railway. We

can't put up with that. Is it about the economy and social powers or

about sovereignty, about a loss of sovereignty? The loss of sovereignty

is an important factor, but it is an issue of cost, we are spending ?350

million a week that's going from our treasury to Brussels. We can't

afford Catherine Stihler it? Nigel knows the cost of everything, but

the value of nothing. We have had the most valuable peace process

which is the European Union. The fact we work together to create a

single market, where we have one set of rules rather than 28 sets of

rules. Nigel is advocating for a Norway, Iceland model which they

have to abide by the rules, but have no say over the rules. I don't see

Norway struggling? If you talk to Norwegians, pay to abide by euros,

but have no say on how the euros are spent, I see that clearly. I think

at the moment we need reform. If we want a Social Democratic reform in

Europe, we need to stay in and fight our corner and to be progressive, we

need to be part of the European Union not walk away from it. Stay?

We don't have Norwegians leaving nor ways and banging on the doors of the

European Commission demanding entry. Outside Europe is what they like? It

is interesting Nigel, if you look and talk to Norwegians, I remember

going when the public procurement debate was on. It was a Department

of Industry and it was given their public procurement brief about how

they saw the new rules and what they wanted to achieve. They gave it to

me as a Scottish MEP, but they have no power over it. The fact of the

matter at the moment, we have power by being members, yes, we need

reform. You want to see an end to zero-hours contracts and more money

given to academic research and more money to job creation, but we can

only do that by being part of it, when you talk about common

agricultural reform, if we come out, which is the choice you want to

make, that's a choice for the people British to have, if we come out, we

have to abide by the rules and be part of the skinningle market and

pay for it and have no say over the rules. After trying to reform the

Common Agricultural Policy, I haven't met one happy farmer, why is

that? Nigel, the thing about it is at the moment, we have huge benefits

from being, you talk to academics about research money they get from

the European Union. If you look at the research money that comes to

Scotland, it is something like ?80 million since the beginning of last

year. That's something that's so important. Doesn't Britain remain a

net contributor? We do contribute more, but we have a

rebate as well, we have to figure that in too. I believe for the

future prosperity of Scotland and the United Kingdom, we are better

placed by having a seat at the top table than just walking away and it

is a shame Nigel because I thought that you thought consumer policy was

an important part. What we achieved in a vote, interroaming charges

across Europe. That was a great win last week. A great victory by

working together. I'm not saying everything is perfect in the EU, far

from it. I want to see reform, but we can only reform if we're part of

it? We are now having exporting more goods worldwide than we are to the

European Union. The amount we're exporting in the European Union is

shrinking. We have barely got a deficit with the rest of the world,

it is not working in our favour. The single market across the European

Union, of 500 million citizens, to be able to access that is something

that's really important we get by being a full member. If we choose to

opt-out, the single market will still remain and we will have now No

say how the rules are made. There are senior allies of Britain,

notably the USA who say stay in the European Union for the advantage of

the global economy? No, the United States want us in the European Union

so we're bound by their trade policy which has done a lot of damage to

Australia which signed up to a similar policy and put their public

sector at risk. Are you saying Britain would thrive outside the

European Union Very much so. What about the Japanese car firms who

set-up in the UK did that to gain access to a European market? There

is the wider global market as well. We make the best cars in the world.

All the Formula One cars, their engines, their gearboxes are made in

Britain. The wings of Airbus are made and so are the engines. That's

why Airbus has got Rolls-Royce engines and so has Boeing. We have a

global market, we shouldn't restrict it. Is there a distinctive Scottish

element to this, the SNP argument that they could see a trigger for an

independence referendum if Britain with draws and Scots vote against,

do you think that's credible? I think that could happen because I

don't think the SNP can sell to the Scottish people going into the

European Union as a renegotiation and giving up even more rights for

fishing communities and agriculture, and indeed, forcing us into the

euro, which the Scots don't want. Over the years, we have had reform

of the common agricultural policy and the fishing policy and at the

end of the day, it's a choice for people whether they want to remain

part of the EU or leave. In my opinion, I think our best interests

are served by remaining part of a reformed European Union, fighting

for workers' right and making sure we have consumer protection,

environmental standards and fighting for the benefits we get from being a

member. Briefly, do you think David Cameron will secure substantial

returns in his negotiations with the EU? I think we will see the letter

coming out next week, to see what the Prime Minister's reform demands

are. It is in our long-term interest, to have access to the

single market with workers' right. I don't know anyone in the UK

Parliament who thinks that David Cameron will get any meaningful

concessions. And in that case, withdrawal is the only option?

Definitely not the option but I think that is what people will go

for. I hope not! Thank you for joining us. Back to the studio.

We're expecting Kezia Dugdale to take to the stage

Let's reflect on some of that. You can see what Kezia Dugdale is trying

to do with the autonomy stuff but by the end of this weekend, it is quite

conceivable we could have the Scottish Labour Party against

Trident, while its leader is in favour of it, while we have the UK

Labour Party for Trident, while its leader is against it. No matter how

much you say it is great to have a range of opinion, is that really

sustainable? I think the difficulty is, one understands why Kezia

Dugdale wants autonomy because the truth is, the Scottish Labour

Party's problem in the last 15 years with devolution is not an inability

to disagree with the UK Labour Party on reserved matters like Trident but

in its apparent inability to take the initiative on devolved matters,

which now includes taxation. I think certainly, it is somewhat

unfortunate from her point of view that the first issue on which

perhaps the party is going to exercise autonomy or going to be

seen to exercise autonomy is on a reserved issue like Trident on

which, frankly, the Labour Party is simply divided, both amongst its

membership and the voters. This is hardly the best place to start. On

the other hand, the big announcement we are expecting in the speech, and

we have already seen trailed, in effect, the Scottish Labour Party is

saying it is not willing to implement the increase in the

threshold at which you begin to pay 40p tax. John McDonnell does not

have a policy which says that at the moment and it may well be true that

the UK Labour Party in 2020 as a different position on that.

Therefore, that will mean the Scottish Labour Party has a

different policy from the UK Labour Party in an area of taxation. But

the point is, it is a policy area which will by that stage be the

responsibility of the Scottish parliament so it is perfectly fine.

It is to the Scottish Labour Party's advantage it can take

different decisions in those circumstances. But on things like

Trident, the bottom line is, it does not matter what they say. As Brian

said, and if you watched the hold interview, Mr Dell struggles on the

fact that at the end of the day, the Scottish Labour Party can express

its view and it has the right to but it has within able to do that. --

Miss Dugdale. At the moment at least, there is no clear

understanding between Jeremy Corbyn and Kezia Dugdale about what

happens, how policy is decided in the circumstances with the UK and

the Scottish party disagree. We have to remember, the announcement on

Monday was essentially a statement of intention. There is no detail at

all about exactly how this operates. Certainly, there are questions about

what happens when the parties are at odds with each other on UK wide

policy. Equally, there are still important questions about how the

Scottish Labour Party will be resourced. It is a fairly open

secret that few people believe the Scottish Labour Party is capable of

being so autonomous that it can financially stand on its own feet.

It is part of our job to spot weasels jumping up from its the long

grass. We have seen a few already this afternoon, Ian Murray, the

proposal on tax credits that Kezia Dugdale is about to make, we

believe, said that they are taking as their starting point now, but if

George Osborne brings in measures to ameliorate the effects of that, it

will cost less. That seems to suggest that by the time the

Scottish Labour Party, should things go very well for them, can implement

this, it would not be reversing all the tax credits because people are

expecting and amelioration, they are not expected George Osborne to

abandon it but it would somehow take into account the living wage and all

the rest of it and start from there. Two points to make, firstly, the

important thing about the announcement we expect in this

speech is it is the first really big indication, as it were, that we are

moving into a world where Scotland's devolved politicians have

to make decisions about taxation as well as about spending. Once you

start having to make decisions about taxation, then you have to start

making decisions which mean that some people might be better off and

some people will be worse off. The truth is, the statement the Scottish

Labour Party would not increase the rate at which you start paying the

40p rate of tax in the way George Osborne plans to do for the rest of

the UK means that people in Scotland who are relatively well-off are

going to be asked to pay a bit more tax and to do so in order to ensure

that those who are less well off and who are currently profiting from tax

credits, will be better off. That is a redistributive policy, not the

kind of thing the Scottish parliament could easily do in the

past but it raises questions as to whether or not those who will be

disadvantaged by the policy will back it when push comes to shove.

The first really big change in Scottish politics to note. I think

beyond that, certainly, the question that will be raised, undoubtedly

about this, as is always raised about these things, is do the sums

add up? John Swinney, when he was interviewed a couple of weeks ago,

add up? John Swinney, when he was while we were listening to that was

to do with when John McDonnell talked about...

to do with when John McDonnell paying money to not over generous

employers rather than getting into a situation where the only people who

are getting tax credits are those people who are in employment where

you cannot economically justify paying a higher wage? Every time I

have spoken to you recently about the Labour Party, you say they won't

get anywhere until they get the basic narrative sorted out, so they

can tell a story to the people of Scotland about what the Scottish

Labour Party is. Are they any closer to doing that now? Not as yet. One

of the interesting thing is that in truth, the announcement we are

expecting in Kezia Dugdale's speech is frankly the first proposal of any

note that has come from Kezia Dugdale since she became leader in

the summer. I take it that the narrative that might be built around

that, that will need to be built around that, is essentially the

argument that actually, we really want to make a more equal Scotland

and here are a set of proposals that will deliver a more equal Scotland

in a way that we don't think the SNP are. One of the possible mistake

that has been made by the presentation of this thing in

advance is that it has been as much about, "we are going to clock a

smooth out the Tories by making it impossible for their policy to be in

fermented in Scotland". The Labour Party has to remember in Scotland

that its principal opposition and political enemy is not the

Conservative Party, it is the SNP. It has got to come up with a

narrative that provides the basis for a critique of what the SNP has

been doing and what the SNP has been proposing, rather than a critique of

the Conservative Party. Again, the crucial challenge that they need to

use this initiative to is to say to the assembly, "would you be willing

to do the same?" As we have discussed earlier, at the moment,

the SNP have indicated they are not willing to go down that path. We

will talk more later. Let's go straight over to the

Perth Concert Hall for ... Nobody embodies the passion and

the courage and the values of the Scottish Labour Party... This is a

young member of the Scottish Labour Party who is introducing her. ... It

is with great pleasure that I ask you to welcome one of my personal

role models, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Kezia

Dugdale! Good afternoon, conference. This is

my first conference as your leader. APPLAUSE

I would like to start by thanking all of you, as supporters and

members, for your belief in me, for your commitment to our values, for

the energy and strength that you give to me and to our movement. And

to the thousands of new members who have decided to be part of the

future of our party and our nation, we say, welcome.

APPLAUSE You join a party with an honoured

past but I promise you this, we will give you so much more to be proud of

in the years ahead. APPLAUSE

I would like to thank our brothers and sisters in the union movement.

In by us in the good times and bad. Your values are our values. We are

and always will be the party of working people, a proud party of

trade unionists. APPLAUSE

And especially to my union, Community, and your members, let me

say, we have been with you in past struggles and we stand with you

again today as you fight not just to save your jobs but said the steel

industry in Scotland. APPLAUSE

-- to save the steel industry. It is indeed a great honour to lead our

party and I address you with a strong sense of both duty and

optimism. My duty is also, though, to the millions outside this hall

who need a strong Scottish Labour Party as much today as at any time

in our recent history. As a party, we face huge challenges, of course

we do. But we are strengthened by the knowledge of what has gone

before, the people who built our movement, faced far greater

obstacles than we do. Keir Hardie, whose memory we honour, a century

after his death, stood on over and more with hundreds of trade

unionists and proclaimed, for the first time, that working people

demanded our only the party in Parliament. There was no need. The

enemies of progress said then as they said now, for a live political

party which exist solely in order to address inequality in society and

advance the interests of working people and their families. It was a

lie then and it is a line-out. -- it is a lie, now.

APPLAUSE History tells us it has always been

those whose vested interest is in the economic and health status quo

who said there is no need for Labour. That's no different today,

and sometimes, of course, if they say it often enough, and if they say

it sweatily enough, they are believed by the very people who have

the most to lose from that lie. The historic role of Labour has always

been to offer a genuine radical alternative to the Tories to Tory

priorities and the interests that they represent. That is a

fundamental division in the politics that we believe in. It is what we

have won that argument at the ballot box, that we have been able to

change society for the better and to create a better future. And that's

exactly what we must do again. When the argument about the future and we

will win the votes of the people that we seek to represent. We failed

to do that in Scotland at the general election and everyone paid a

painful price. But the income of that election also confirmed a very

basic point. It is if Labour loses the Tories win. Those lessons of the

recent and distant past are important. But it is the future that

counts. Moulding t shaping it, realising its potential for everyone

and of course, we have a responsibility to criticise the

record of the nationalists, after eight years in power, and I'll never

shy away from pointing out again and again that huge gap which exists

between what they say and what they do.

APPLAUSE But what motivates me, it is not the cut and the thrust of

that kind of politics, it is the possibility of something better. The

belief that tomorrow can and shuds be better than today. I look at our

great, great country and see not just problems that I want to fix,

but good things that I believe can be made even better. That are, for

me, is what makes this country so special. That's why I love it and

its people. Our capacity for positive self criticism, constant

self examination, that keeps our society for all its faults, the envy

of the world for the very reason that it is still a work in progress.

And it is that story of progress that I want to tell today. Because

friends, the future is coming. That isn't in any doubt, the only

question is whether we are ready for it. And all around the world people

are fearful of the pace of change. They see their jobs unthreat, their

standing of living under pressure, their communities changing in ways

that they can't understand, they see their children facing a more

uncertain future than they did. Borders no longer keep problems the

other side of the mountains, across the river or over the sea. Around

the world, people are turning to populist parties are turning their

back on the outside world seeking protection. People are turning to

parties who offer comforting political stories, but who in

reality offer little real progress, we look at things differently. We

look at world with excitement and see a future filled with

opportunities. If only we have the courage and the confidence to

prepare for that change. And, if we prepare for the future with

confidence, rather than fear, we know that there is nothing that we

can't do together. APPLAUSE Because we look to the

possibilities of the future. Not the politics of the past. It is why we

in this party welcome refugees with open arms. Not just because we have

a duty to protect those fleeing for their lives, but because we know

that each new community that joined Scotland has enriched the whole. It

is why we remain a party, not of nationalism, but of

internationalism. APPLAUSE Scottish Labour is

Scotland's internationalist party. The party of shared sovereignty, of

working together with our neighbours for the good of all. And whilst

others will play politics with their future in Europe, I say today that I

will work every day to make the positive case for our union within

the European Union. APPLAUSE

We are the only force in Scotland who believe in that case with both

head and heart. Friends, our opponents want next year's Scottish

elections to be a re-run of the argument of last year. The Tories

will want to talk about the past because they don't want to defend

the terrible record of David Cameron's Government. The SNP want

to talk about the arguments of the past because they can't defend the

thread bare record of the Scottish Government. We'll talk about the

future. Because Scotland is falling behind whilst the world is moving

on. The SNP exist together to get to the next election, their next

referendum, governing is only ever a staging post, never a purpose. We

want to govern because we believe in the possibilities that come from

power. Because we know that we can make life better than this.

There is no point in politics if it is all about the argument and never

about the delivery. The whole purpose of politics for me is to

open up opportunities and to make sure that it is possible for

everyone to share in them. That is where so many people in Scotland are

being failed at present. Because change is happening so fast and the

danger is that more and more of our people who are not equipped to deal

with it, will be unable to benefit from it our play their part. So we

need to close the gap between the richest and the rest, not because we

fuel the fire of that injustice but because an unequal society holds us

all back. APPLAUSE A more equal society means

a happier society for everyone and a more dynamic economy for all.

Labour's great achievements in the last century left behind equalising

institutions, that have endured for generations. In our world of change,

we need to invest in the one thing that will remain constant, our

people. To help them to be resilient, to

meet the challenges and opportunities of longer lives with

better health and working a life with several careers, to take up

jobs that haven't even been invented yet. Look back 20 years and you are

in the early days of the internet. Look forward 20 years, none of us

can envisage what technology will have created. Those who are inside

that loop, will prosper. Those who are outside it, will once again be

left behind. I want to use the power of

Government in order to guarantee and I do mean guarantee that there will

not be another generation of even deeper exclusion. I want everyone in

Scotland, rural and urban, new Scots and old Scots, men and women and the

rich and the rest to be part of the opportunities of the future. And I

get frustrated when I see it written that having a First Minister who is

a woman means that women can achieve anything. If only they work harder.

I ask, do you not think women work hard enough now?

APPLAUSE Do you really think that women earn

12% less than men because they don't work as hard?

What about the women who no matter how hard they work will never

achieve their potential because of the barriers put in front of them?

Wet can't create the economy of the future whilst half our population is

locked out of high skilled, high paid jobs. We need 147,000 more

engineers in Scotland by 2022. Just a fraction of those studying

engineering, science and technology, preparing for the jobs of the future

are women. Just 4% of engineering apprenticeships are taken by women.

Having three female leaders should mean that we win more victories for

women. It can't mean that we declare

victory prematurely. The inequality that women face has become part of

the political mainstream now, but that means politics can now get in

the way of progress. Childcare in Scotland is now focussed in a number

of hours available, but little care about quality, affordability or

flexibility. The childcare proposals we put forward are made to fit

around the lives of working parents, not made to fit an election leaflet.

APPLAUSE And conference, when the Scotland

Bill returns next week, Ian Murray will push again for gender balance

in the Scottish Parliament and on the boards in the public sector.

APPLAUSE Last time we tried, Labour supported

the Tories opposed and the SNP who claimed to support equality, well,

they abstained. I will say it again conference, we don't just need women

in power, we need feminists in positions of influence.

APPLAUSE Because we don't exist in politics to congratulate ourselves

on the status quo. I get frustrated when I hear boasts that almost 75%

of Scotland's premises have access to fibre broadband. My first thought

is, what about the other 25%? Do they not matter? What about the

rural communities desperately trying to hold on to their jung people, to

their future? Where the possibility is tantalising, but the prospect o

so distant. What about the families who can see the broadband box at the

end of their street, but can't get connected? We can be more ambitious

and as Labour we will ensure that every home and every business in

Scotland as access to the fastest broadband.

APPLAUSE Friends, the most important economic

choice we can make is to prepare our people for the future with a

world-class education. Our focus on educational inequality is not a

social policy, it is our economic strategy.

Scotland cannot succeed while we squander the potential of so many of

our citizens. My passion is for education. I was raised by teachers.

I learned from an early age that the power of education to enrich lives

to overcome inequality, to liberate people from a predetermined destiny.

If there is one thing that a Government should be judged on above

all else, it is their record on education. The degree to which their

stewardship of our schools, colleges and universities lifts the next

generation to fly further than the last. Inspire them to reach for

their dreams, their parents could never even imagine. And equip them

for a life rich in ways that we do not yet understand. If there is a

silver bullet to slay the monsters of poverty, inequality and

ignorance, then it is education. If there is a magic key to a fuller

more fulfilling life then it is education. That is why this movement

has had education for all at its very heart since we set-up lending

libraries, Workers' Educational Associations, night schools, the

Open University, and trade union learning and I say to the SNP after

eight years in charge, I will judge you on your record and I will judge

you love all on your record on education.

APPLAUSE Because every child that you left behind, well that neglect,

it offends this Labour movement. Every single one of the 6,000

children who left a Scottish primary school this year on your watch First

Minister, unable to read properly, well that record disgraces this

nation and it constrains its future. APPLAUSE

Alex Salmond. LAUGHTER Alex Salmond that a monument to

himself in one of our universities, with his tuition fee pledge

honoured. Let me tell you what I will put in our universities. Every

youngster from our poorest families who has the potential to get there.

That is the legacy I want to leave in our universities. CHEERING AND

APPLAUSE And until their chance of getting

there no longer depends on which school they went to, how much their

family earns, or what someone decided their place was when they

were five, then you won't find me carving complacency and

self-congratulation into stone. APPLAUSE

Conference, the rocks will melt in the sun before I accept even one

working-class boy or girl who can't get to university, just because

their family was not rich enough, their school wasn't posh enough or

the system just did not believe in them enough.

APPLAUSE And I am glad that after eight years

of congratulating themselves, the SNP now have two admit that there is

a problem, that something has to be done about the achievement gap in

our schools, about widening access to university, about falling

standards of literacy and humorously. They just don't get that

every school in this country as some children who face barriers to

achievement. I have looked around the world for what works and here is

achievement. I have looked around the different approach that I

propose, new full Scottish So we won't hand the money to local

councils. We will hand it to the headteachers, giving them the

freedom to prepare with their staff and plan for how they will use the

money. And let's tell them that this is not a fun for one year or two

years or 44-macro years, but is not a fun for one year or two

that wants to go on to higher education will get full grant

support worth ?6,000 a year. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

We will pay for this education plan by making different choices from the

SNP. We will ask those very top earners to pay a bit more tax. A tax

rise on the richest, not because we are against aspiration but because

we are for it. For every child in Scotland having a world-class

education. APPLAUSE

With the new powers that are coming to the Scottish parliament comes a

real chance to change things. That means real choices need to be made.

I have made clear that I leave Scottish Labour. The decisions will

be made in Scotland and we will have a more autonomous Scottish Labour

Party. But simplistic claims to be doing the best for Scotland are

meaningless if the power to change things for those who need our help

goes unused. The SNP are obsessed with power but they are too scared

to use it. APPLAUSE

Because what is Scotland after all? It is just us. It is not a concept.

It is not an ideal. It is not a dream. It is just people, individual

people, deciding whether they genuinely CV humans they share their

country with as equals. Whether they want to help people less fortunate

than themselves, less able than themselves, whether they want to

offer them a hand up, to stand beside them, or whether they want to

push them down as they fight some way to the top of some pile. Those

who base their politics nationality rather than need, I ask this: Who in

Scotland are you standing up for? The SNP have joined with the Tories,

not just once but four times, to vote against introducing a 50p top

rate for education. Pretending that you stand for everyone means that

you end up standing for nothing and for no one.

APPLAUSE You know, friends, if talking about

a fairer Scotland was what made the difference, then Nicola Sturgeon

would have made Scotland the fairest country in the world by now. But

talking about it is not enough. You need to change, to act, to do things

differently. When there are choices to be made, here is Scottish

Labour's decision. We stand with everyone who needs government to get

by all get on in life. We want everyone to be able to aspire to

something better, but we will be, as Jeremy stares, straight and honest

in talking about it. Someone has to pay. -- as Jeremy says. If it is not

both at the very top, it will be the rest of us and our children, who

will lose out. Because it is easy to rail against austerity, to pose as a

socialist, when no one ever asks you how you will pay for the fairer

future you claim to believe in. The political posturing has to end with

the new, powerful Scottish Parliament and the power of the

change. A fairer Scotland is not one where everyone pays more tax. In

fact, we want hundreds of thousands of working Scots to pay less tax.

That is what we did the last time the Labour government had the power

to change things. We introduced tax credits to help working families,

tax credits were a tax cut that worked, using the system to boost

people's earnings. They lifted hundreds of thousands of children

out of poverty. They allowed families to aspire to more than just

making it to the end of the month. At the general election, David

Cameron was asked if he would cut tax credits. We have all seen the

videos. He has broken his promise and it is working families who will

pay the price. In Scotland, nearly 350,000 families rely on the money

from tax credits. The average family will be more than ?100 per month

worse off as a result of these changes. 70% of the money saved by

this tax rise on working people will come from the pockets of working

mothers. In a few weeks, just before Christmas, families are due letters

on their doormats, telling them how much they are going to lose. After

months of supporting George Osborne, Ruth Davidson is now trying

to distance herself and the Scottish Tories from him, while some other

MSPs flew down to London to vote for them. -- of her MSPs. She knows this

and veterinary tax rise will be as unpopular for her next year as the

poll tax was for previous generations of Tories. We don't yet

know how they will react to the defeat Labour handed them in the

House of Lords. But let the message go-to David Cameron: Keep your

promise, stop this tax rise on working families.

APPLAUSE But friends, we should remember that

David Cameron was not the only one who made a promise at the election.

Those Labour and the SNP promised families a break from Tory

austerity. We should keep that promise. The Scottish parliament

will soon have the new powers which give us the chance to break with the

Tories' unfair taxes. At the SNP conference, John Swinney was asked

if he would make a different choice on tax credits from the Tories. He

offered only excuses, saying they could not afford to do it. If the

SNP government can't even commit to doing things differently from a Tory

government, what does it say about their ambitions for Scotland? What

does it say about them? We have a government in Scotland which looks

at a problem and sees only the politics. We need a government that

looks at a problem and sees the possibilities. I see things

differently. I don't look to make political capital out of a

grievance. When I see a problem, I ask, what can be done? So let me say

today to Scotland what we will do. If the Tories don't see sense

Scottish Labour will stand for the elections with a promise to restore

the money Scottish families stand to lose from this Tory tax rise on

working families. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

And we will act as soon as the new powers make it possible. We don't

need to tax ordinary Scots more to make this change. We just need to

make different choices from the Tories and different choices from

the SNP. The SNP have said they would cut the tax paid on airline

tickets, a policy which will eventually cost ?250 million per

year. I know this is a policy which many will welcome, not least the

airport operators. But I say this: A tax cut for those who can already

afford to shop for airline tickets cannot be Scotland's priority when

families cannot afford the weekly shop.

APPLAUSE So we will spend the money the SNP

would instead spend on abolishing air passenger duty and we won't

implement George Osborne's new tax cut for those on the higher rate of

income tax. We will do things differently. Before the UK

elections, our opponents said there was no difference between Labour and

the Tories. I hope they can see that difference now.

APPLAUSE A Labour government introduced tax

credits. A Tory government will cut them. At the Scottish elections, if

people ask, what is the difference between a Scottish Labour government

and an SNP government, this is the difference. A Scottish Labour

government will restore the much-needed tax credits and an SNP

government, left to their own devices, would leave the Tory cuts

in place. APPLAUSE

So let the message go out. By using both votes for Scottish Labour in

May's election, you are voting to use the new powers of the Scottish

Parliament to restore the money lost through tax credit cuts. Every

Labour MSP who is elected will ensure that's what the Scottish

Government does. It offers a break from Tory austerity, not a Scottish

Government that offers only excuses. APPLAUSE

The possibilities are open to us with now powers, the opportunities

of the future are so big that the challenges are so great, that it is

not good enough anymore to have leaders who can congratulate

themselves on managing the status quo. To have ministers who are

campaigning when they should be governing. Real financial

responsibility means we can make different choices, but it doesn't

mean that they will always be easy choices. We will offer a reverse to

the Tory tax rise on working people that we know we also have to make

our money go further, especially in the NHS. Our NHS staff perform

miracles every hour of every day. APPLAUSE

The treatments and cures our research scientists create and our

doctors deliver are simply awesome, but progress comes at a cost. To pay

for new drugs, new equipment, and for population that is ageing and

living longer, nowhere are the challenges of the future more

obvious than in our NHS, yet we have a Scottish Government who are

managing sterm crisises rather than securing the future. The SNP have

squeezed health spending by more than even the Tories in England. I

will say that again because it is hard to believe. Even this Tory

Government, the most hostile to the NHS in a generation has increased

spending on the NHS in England more than the SNP have in Scotland. Isn't

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

Last week, the SNP Government's own auditors confirmed that Nicola

Sturgeon has now cut NHS spending in real terms. Last week the Royal

College of Nursing also told us that years ago, they had warned the then

Health Minister, now our First Minister, that cutting the number of

student nurses would undermine the future of the NHS, and we can see

week after week the impact of the choice they made in hospitals and

health centres across Scotland. What used to be a winter crisis in our

hospitals continued into the spring, and then into the summer. The SNP

under pressure from Labour have now promised a ten year plan for the

NHS. It will be published next year. Nine years in Government, to come up

with a ten year plan! APPLAUSE That tells you everything

you need to know about the priority the SNP place on the NHS.

The frustrating thing is we know what needs to be donement here is an

incredible statistic 2% of the patients in the NHS account for 50%

of NHS spending. We know who these patients are, we

can follow them through the system, we can intervene to improve their

health and save the NHS money. We know why our accident and emergency

departments are under strain because the beds that new patients should be

sent to have elderly patients lying in them who are fit to go home where

they should be supported by care workers, but rather than having a

long-term strategy for improving care for the elderly, the big

challenge for the NHS over the next generation, we spend

Secretary-General teams into A departments whilst the strain grows

and grows. So we'll take a different approach. We don't want to manage

the NHS of the 1940s, but to build an NHS ready for the challenges of

the 2040s, odds our population gets older, we want our parents and

grandparents to have a regular, friendly face with a time to care

for them. So we will take forward one of Unison's ideas in their

report into the future of care. We know that one in five care workers

will leave their job each year. Let's make caring a career that more

will choose for the longer term. Let's put more money into the

pockets of low paid workers and local economies. So I can announce

today that Scottish Labour will guarantee a real Living Wage for

care workers. APPLAUSE Because it is Labour's

mission that those post-war babies born to the NHS will be cared for

into their 70s and yopd with the dignity and respect that they

deserve by people with time to care. And by improving care, we will

relieve the pressure on our frontline NHS and investing can save

hundreds of millions of pounds in the costs of delayed discharge

allowing us to meet not just the costs of care, but to fund a new

secures and the treatments that the NHS can offer in the years ahead.

Labour is the party of the NHS. Nye Bevan, after he created the NHS

famously said if a bed pan was dropped in a hospital ward, he

wanted to hear it in the corridors of Whitehall. Today, you could drop

a skip load of bed pans into Holyrood and the SNP wouldn't hear a

thing! APPLAUSE We have a Government that

is deaf to the alarm bells ringing in the NHS, whose mind is on the

next press release. We will protect and invest in an NHS which can meet

the challenges of the future. Friends, the first step to returning

to power is to prove that you are an effective opposition. But we don't

exist to force the SNP to match their left-wing rhetoric with real

action. We would rather take the decisions ourselves. I don't want

Scottish Labour to keep rolling the NHS boulder up the hill. I want

Scottish Labour to be out ahead. We are the party of action, not

protest. We are the party of progress, not bumper stickers and

T-shirt slogans! APPLAUSE Friends, next year's

elections will be hard. But I have no intention of making it easy for

the SNP either. APPLAUSE But you know what, the SNP

are starting to make the kind of mistakes we did when we dominated

Scottish politics. They say the reasons not to act rather than the

way to make change. The dominance of one party in all ministerial

positions, a majority in our Parliament, in Parliamentary

Committees, across public life and civil society, that was not the

pluralistic vision of the constitutional convention, and

whilst the SNP went from strength to strength, the increasing arrogant

way in which they exercise that strength, well that's been their

choice, Freedom of Information Requests are refused, Parliamentary

questions are stone walled, journalists come under attack for

simply asking difficult questions. At First Minister's Questions

whatever issue I raise, the response has been the same complacent answer,

look at our poll ratings. Friends, in a modern democracy, we need a

Government in Scotland that spends more time explaining itself and less

time congratulating itself. APPLAUSE In the months ahead, we

will set out a different vision for our economy, and for our public

services. But we will also set out a different

vision for our democracy. Starting with Graham Pearson's review into

the single police force, we will put power and resources back into the

hands of local decision makers. Jackie Baillie will set out the

principles of Scottish Labour's reforms to local finance. We will

recapture the early days of devolution, renewing our Scottish

democracy for a new generation of leadership. But to those who want

more accountable Government, let me say this - the only way to stop the

SNP having it all their own way is to use both your votes for Scottish

Labour in next May's election. APPLAUSE Friends, we are changing.

Getting back to the values that did so much for Scotland, back as the

radical alternative to those those ambitions goes no further than

managing the status quo. We are looking at anew at our nation and we

see a future of possibility. We have a unique opportunity to show how

what we believe in, the power of Government, those new powers of our

Parliament can change Scotland and change the lives of working Scots

for the better. And when we talk about the change we will make with

the incredible power and potential that lives in Scotland, people will

take a fresh look at us. But they will do something else - they will

take another look at our opponents and ask, when you take away all the

empty rhetoric and fancy packaging, what do they really stand for?

I have never been more excited, more proud and more optimistic about our

party and our people. What an opportunity we have. Let's make the

change and let's walk with confidence into the future.

APPLAUSE A standing ovation for Kezia Dugdale

there. Let's get reaction to the speech now from Professor John

Curtice. Impressed? Well, I think the question you alluded to before

we heard the speech was well, what's the

we heard the speech was well, what's country it wants

we heard the speech was well, what's of her speech. . The first is I'm

not sure there was a take away line, a phrase, a memorable bit of the

speech that we will always say... Tax credits? That's a proposal, but

it is not a memorable phrase, it is not a few words or a phrase or a

sentence that encapsulates the idea of a kind of Scotland that Labour

wants to create and the truth is all politicians at the end of

wants to create and the truth is all the T-shirts, but you have worn the

T-shirt? Yes, I have. Did what did you make TV? It was a fantastic

speech and brilliant the way she laid it out and given us a vision

for the future. I really like how she is talking about using the extra

powers, but I believe we have already had the powers and the tax

credits and changing that and investing in Kid Start and tackling

the education gap, it is fantastic. Kate, what did you make of it? We

will get to the detail in a minute. It was so inspiring and my favourite

part was to hear the leader of my party call herself a pem nist,

bringing up the pay gap. That was a remarkable section, she got

thunderous applause for that. She says that Ian Murray will put

forward proposal for a gender balanced Scottish Parliament. Well,

you're nodding your head, what do you do to bring about a gender

balanced Scottish Parliament without making constituencies be divided

into male and female? In the Shadow Cabinet we have 50/50. There is...

What do you do? What do you do to bring about a gender balance? The

women going for the positions, making sure we are attracting women

and they are trained to go into politics, it is one of the most

under represented parts and Labour leads the way and it is great to

hear Kez making the case for The issue of the tax credit, is that

the big offer and narrative that you think will help Labour at the

election? One of many, absolutely. Let's stick with tax credits. Why is

it going to make such a big difference? My daughter is a

single-parent and she will hear just before gritters watches them to lose

in tax credits. When we have a Labour government in Scotland it's

due, she won't lose it. Don't you accept the argument that perhaps

wages should be increased rather than topping up benefits from the

state? Wages should always be increased but until we get to a

reasonable level of wages, people that don't have it need support and

tax credits are the way to do it. Margaret, again, to pick up the

point, I am hearing about money on carers and on the NHS and money to

help children in care go to university. What I'm not hearing in

this beach is any arguments about growing the economy to pay for that

in the first place. I think, as you touched on education, for me, that

was key, that is how we grow the economy. If we equip our children,

particularly the looked after children, who has been left behind

for many, many years, that is how we equip the economy for growth. I

understand the argument but that is a long-term, generational thing

whereas paying for kids in care... I'm not saying any of these are bad

ideas but if you pay for them, how do you find them? It's about

priorities, isn't it? Kez said about the air passenger tax, she made the

point about the people that are going to save through the air

passenger reduction, they can afford to pay and shop around for flights.

But looked after children can't. Tony, she also said something like

it is not going to be easy next May, given the state the party is in and

the results last May. Was she saying that Labour can govern or was she

saying that they can contain the rise of the SNP? She almost seemed

to be saying the latter at one point. I never got that at all. I

think it is quite clear that she is laying that Labour can govern. I

think it is quite clear from her. What do you think the difference

will be to the party from that speech? She delivered it fairly

straightforwardly, not many great rhetorical impulses, just telling it

straight, was how she described it. Is that fair? I think she gave so

much passion and excitement to the members in the party. As long as Kez

is our leader, there's a lot of excitement for the future of our

party and I know I'm ready for next year, to see what we can do in 2016.

Thank you for joining us. I will leave you to go, and Tony, I see you

have the T-shirt already! Back to the studio.

Kezia Dugdale spoke about closing the gap in educational achievement

for children from rich and poorer backgrounds.

The Joseph Rowntree Trust presented their research at a fringe event.

In this summary from our political reporter Andrew Black, Professor Sue

Ellis from Strathclyde University challenged the Scottish Government's

policy, saying that tackling underachievement is not just

The biggest impact factor on how fast a child in Scotland learns to

read is the amount of money his parents or her parents earn. That is

wrong, in a 21st-century. We must do something about it. The solution,

the attainment gap matters because of the cycle of disadvantage that we

know happens. You do poorly at school, unemployment often beckons,

you get a low income, it has health and psychological consequences. It

also matters because it means there's a large pool of unexplored

talent. We are missing out on the future, artists, entrepreneurs of

the future. Because so many children are not doing well in school. The

geography of poverty in Scotland is very different in terms of education

from the geography of poverty in England or America. In England and

America, poverty is quite zonal, according to schools. In Scotland,

it is not. Scotland has a much more comprehensive education system, so

almost 60% of kids who are living in poverty don't go to schools in areas

of poverty. Kezia Dugdale followed with some startling statistics and

then a policy announcement. If you are looked after child in Scotland

today, you are more likely to go to jail than university. That should

shock every single person in that room and we should not stand for

that until it is turned around. Thereafter 16,000 looked after

children in Scotland just now, people with a looked after identity,

and 156 of them are currently at higher education institutions. I

have much higher aspirations for that. So one of the policies I've

lived in the press today and will say more about in my speech tomorrow

is that if you are a looked after Kidd, a child who has had no real

mum and dad in your life other than the state, then we recognise the

state is your parent and it should do a much better job than it has

done until now looking after your educational interest. I have said

that every child from a looked after background that wants to go to

university will get a full grant. They won't have to borrow a penny to

get there. That is a full grant of ?6,000, for every year they are at

university, to make sure they can to fill their potential and not have to

go into a penny of debt to do it. -- they can fulfil their potential.

That was Kezia Dugdale, with the policy announcement of the ?6,000

per year grant for looked after people who wanted to get a higher

education. She spoke about that in the speech.

Now, there will be debate on the renewal of Trident tomorrow,

after the conference decided to adopt it as one of their

It's an issue which splits the party.

Brian is joined now by union delegates on both sides

Thanks Gordon. A very big debate tomorrow, the members decided to

give top priority to the question of Trident, when they were allowed to

choose topics for debate. Gary Smith from the GMB and Dave Watson both

join me. Gary, from your perspective, OK, it is Trident but

it is based on the Clyde and it's a lot of jobs in that area. One of the

argument is that those jobs would be in jeopardy if Labour changes its

policy. Is that your union's position? Yes, and unlike everyone

else who has passed comment on Trident we have written to and

spoken to the members in every shipyard in Scotland this week. Our

members back our position. This is not just about Faslane, this will

impact the South, the AE systems on the Clyde and every other shipyard

and many factories around the rest of the UK as well. These are real

jobs for real people and we will be defending them tomorrow. Hundreds of

jobs, thousands of jobs, potentially in jeopardy in Scotland. I don't

think we accept that. The trade unions in Scotland have done a lot

of work on this issue and the motion tomorrow reflects that. Work has

been done to minimise any job issues and deal with diverse of occasion.

Real jobs will be lost, the ?157 billion which Trident is now going

to cost, which will result in huge amounts of job losses in the current

situation. Don't you accept that? It's absolute nonsense. We are

talking about Alice in Wonderland all ticks and buying the sky jobs.

What trade union in their right mind would vote for jobs that no one can

tell us what people are going to be doing? What are the terms and

conditions for these jobs? They don't exist because the jobs don't

exist. The idea of a redeployment fund. It's nonsense because workers

in the shipbuilding industry know the alternative, diversification

actually means unemployment and poverty in working-class communities

in Scotland and the rest of the UK. Dave Watson, these are real jobs,

the ones you are talking about or are they a fantasy? If you read the

SDC report, you will see this is based on real studies, and real work

elsewhere. I'm not saying there are no job consequences because there

always are but we have to accept that Trident isn't it spreads status

symbol which has no value in times of defence. -- is that expensive

status and more. Even the Tories are saying, ?167 billion is five-year 's

worth of Scottish budget going down the pan. Gary, Scotland and the UK

can't afford it? I absolutely don't accept that, it is 6% of the defence

budget but fundamentally, and I make no apologies for this, these are

real jobs, real working-class people's jobs, working class

communities, highly skilled employment which will be replaced by

unemployment and low paid, low skilled reader work. I wish Dave was

talking to me today about finding public service cuts and defending

jobs in public services rather than playing fast and loose without

members's jobs in the shipyard. What about the moral case and the moral

argument? Some people say these weapons are morally wrong whatever

the jobs? Nobody likes nuclear weapons but this is not a moral

world in which we live. As I say, this is Alice in Wonderland

politics. It is an unnecessary debate. The Scottish Government, the

future Labour Scottish Government will have no influence over this

issue. We should be talking about job losses in five in the buy

fabrication yards, cuts in public services, not having this indulgent

debate. A distraction, Dave? It's not, there is a moral case against

Trident but at the end of the day, 106 to ?7 billion is a lot of jobs.

If we were not spending it on Trident, we could spend it on

conventional defence which would provide jobs in the industry. What

of the Scottish conference, as it sped it, says no to Trident? That is

the mood, it may not happen but that is the mood. Wouldn't it be the case

that the British Labour Party, the UK level Labour Party would say, as

they have said many times in the 80s and 90s, it is not for them? That is

a matter for the UK Labour Party. If the Scottish party tomorrow decide

this is the Scottish Labour Party's policy, it is the job of the

Scottish Labour Party to make its case after UK level. I know this is

unusual in the UK but if we were in Germany or Sweden, you would not be

asking me these questions because people understand how federal

systems work. Gary Smith, if the Scottish Labour Party votes to say

no to Trident, do you hope it will be overturned at a UK level? There

will be a Trident replacement. The issue is where Trident is going to

be built. There are people in the defence establishment who would love

to build things abroad because they have no commitment to Scottish jobs

or UK manufacturing. Let's be absolutely clear about that. We

should not be playing fast and loose with the jobs of ordinary people in

Scotland. They are highly skilled manufacturing jobs, the kind of jobs

the economy is crying out for. Thank you for joining us. Back to the

studio. Jeremy Corbyn's speech yesterday

was one for fans of what you There was praise for Keir Hardie,

Nye Bevan, Jennie Lee Some references to the Scottish

Government brought it up to date. There were also plenty of mentions

of socialism, designed to appeal to left-wing voters who may have turned

to the SNP after the referendum. When the Scotland Bill goes through

the House of Commons, Britain will become one of the most evolved

nations in the world. The Labour Party needs to change to respond to

that, and respond to the way that politics is now done. That is why it

is right that decisions about Scottish Labour will be taken by the

members and activists of the Scottish Labour Party, a Scottish

Labour Party where decisions about your policy, the management of your

affairs and selection of your candidates will be undertaken here

in Scotland. That is what I'm committed to, and what Kezia Dugdale

and I intend to deliver, with the UK and Scottish Labour Party is

cooperating, in solidarity with one another.

APPLAUSE The radical tradition that has

always been alive in Scotland has inspired me all my political life.

Keir Hardie, our party's great founder, and I'm pleased we had a

session on him this morning, and there's a great book at conference

today which I hope you will read, he died 100 years ago this year. Born

in poverty in Scotland, he was the emblem of what our Labour Party is

about. For your information, he was also the last bearded leader of the

Labour Party! LAUGHTER But by being born in Scotland, he

also represented constituencies in England, like West Ham in London and

Merthyr Tydfil in Wales. Our mission is the same as that which he laid

out just 21 years into our party's life, when he said the movement

would not rest until the sunshine of socialism and human freedom break

forth upon our land. The sunshine of socialism, friends, I could not

think of a better description for what our country needs, to break

away from the narrow, nasty, divisive politics that the Tory

government is giving us and the Tory party has always given us.

APPLAUSE We have seen it since May, and it

was on full display this week as they sought to portray a crisis,

they are inflicting, and Ian was right about this, on 3 million

families as a constitutional crisis. Keir Hardie's Sunshine of socialism

was about providing people with decent housing. It was about

promoting peace and defending jobs will stop there is no contradiction

between those last two points. We know there are skilled jobs in the

defence industry. We cannot be negligent about skills and jobs. We

must secure every one of them. But don't tell me that we can't also put

some of those skills to better and different use. Security of jobs, for

innovators, engineers, technicians, security staff and civil servants

are important. So no one should even consider allocating 1p of any money

that may be saved by not renewing Trident until every one of those

skills and jobs are protected through a proper programme of

management of that change. Brian has been joined

by another senior party member. Thank you very much indeed, joined

by Iain Gray. Ian, thank you very much for joining us. We heard there

from Jeremy Corbyn, talking about the Trident issue which I have been

discussing with the unions. There was a lot in his speech about

redbting benefits, I didn't hear much about growing the economy?

Look, this was the first opportunity for Jeremy to demonstrate to

Scottish Labour collectively the values and vision he brings to his

leadership and I think he did that extremely well and clearly and

cleverly, he did it using the words of Keir Hardie, I have to tell you

that, that was popular, very popular. It seemed to go down well

in the hall and also going down well the speech from Kezia Dugdale. On

the business of restoring tax credits, using Scottish powers when

they are enhanced, what are you talking about? It is not the Old

Labour system is that gave benefits earning as much as ?50,000 or

?60,000? This is straightforwardly, a replacement of those tax credits

which George Osborne says that he is going to remove and what's

interesting about this, of course, is that Kez made very clear shao

that he was willing to take different decisions, different

decisions from the Tories, different decisions from the SNP in order to

help those who need that help most of all. You know, I think over the

weeks and months of Kez's leadership, everyone has come to

recognise her warmth and empathy. Today, I think she showed some of

her steel and the conference loved it. She got a standing ovation for

that announcement in the middle of her speech, that doesn't happen

often for leaders of Scottish Labour. More money for those in

care. A good idea on its own. More money for the NHS, more money for

this, more money for that, more money for universities, etcetera,

etcetera, not a word about growing the economy to raise that money. The

only announcement was those in middle and high earnings would pay

more on tax? You're wrong, Brian, because Kez made absolutely clear

support for closing the attainment gap in education is an economic

strategy because for every young person who has failed by our system,

by our schools, by our colleges, by our higher education system, that is

somebody who will not be able to make their full contribution to

their own life, yes, but also to growing the economy. What Kez is

saying is if we want to grow our economy, we must do it on the skills

anded education of our people, that's a long-term investment and

that's the kind of investment she announced today. She was talking

about those in care going to university, at that university level

and your own remit of education, is there any suggestion of as Labour

previously considered a graduate tax of some kind, a graduate repayment

of some kind? No, she said where that would be paid from. From the

attainment funding which is already in place and in terms of support for

children from poorer families in school and she said exactly where

that would come from, it would come for from asking those who earn more

than ?150,000 to pay a little more. It is really important about the

economic point, she said, "We will do this, not because we are against

aspiration, but because we are for aspiration for everyone of

Scotland's children. ." Iain Gray, thank you. Let's get a last thought

from Professor John Curtice. As you were saying earlier, with these new

powers, you can raise taxes here, the debate has been about spending

money for years, right since the start of the Scottish Parliament,

not about having to pay for it, but the danger for Labour is a lot of

people who have better off might say, "Well, oh, they're going to in

effect put my taxes up, no thanks." That's the danger, but that

announcement and what we have seen at the SNP and this conference helps

to underline how different politics in Scotland is from that south of

the border. South of the border the lesson the Labour Party has taken

for good or real, we need to keep on talking about the economy, we have

to demonstrate economic competence and we have to be able to appeal

more effectively to so-called Middle England and to those with

aspiration, particularly those on the Blairite wing of the party, they

feel the party lost touch with that section of English society. Here in

contrast, of course, the Labour Party was decimated... Sorry to

interrupt you, that's the lesson the Labour Party learned. They just

elected Jeremy Corbyn? Well, sorry, that's a lesson that significant

sections of the Parliamentary Labour Party has taken.

LAUGHTER Let me make that absolutely clear.

That's point one. In contrast north of the border here, it is perfectly

clear that the party which really did lose an election and lost an

election in truth, we know, as a result primarily because of voters

who are relatively speaking on the left who were enticed with that's

the right word by the vision of a more equal Scotland that the SNP

laid out in a referendum, going to the SNP and therefore, as a result,

the Labour Party now feels compelled to try to compete with the SNP on

that territory. Therefore, we do indeed end up with this area where

in fact what the Scottish Labour Party is deliberately acknowledging

is the possibility of tax increases in Scotland in order to fund a

different pattern of spending and that certainly, frankly, I don't

time soon. Even under Jeremy Corbyn? Even under

Jeremy Corbyn. Coming back to this, we haven't finished this point about

a narrative, I'm trying to, you seem to think that they have gone some

way to creating a narrative about what on earth is the Scottish Labour

Party there for? The truth is, I think, evidently Kezia Dugdale is

saying we need a more equal Scotland. I don't think the SNP have

done enough. I have made policy announcement that I think illustrate

the idea that I am committed announcement that I think illustrate

equality in the way the SNP announcement that I think illustrate

although, it is not, but it is over in reality, let's talk about how you

use the powers, that's a switch she is trying to make again deliberately

at the SNP? The fight is not over south of the border. We know the

Labour Party in Westminster is a den of ferrets in a sack, nevertheless,

she made it clear where they stand in Scotland and that's what this

party needed to hear. Andrew, they arrived gloomy, who could blame them

after the gubing they got in May, do you think that helped? The mood in

the conference has been really low. You can feel them sort of reaching