11/03/2017 Scottish Liberal Democrats Conference

Hello and welcome to our live coverage of the Scottish Liberal

Democrats Spring Conference. The leader Willie Rennie will set out

his case for Scotland to stay part of the UK. We will have that, live.

The MSP Alex Cole-Hamilton tells BBC Scotland his party's MPs in the

Commons would block moves for a second independence referendum.

And I will be here at the ice rink in Perth going over the figures from

the conference. Spring Conference season feels

slightly feverish as the political temperature grows around Brexit and

an anticipated second referendum. This time it's the turn of the Lib

Dems, brandishing their pro-European credentials by demanding a

referendum on Britain's departure deal from the EU. As ever our

political editor is standing by on the conference floor. Brian, good

afternoon. The Lib Dems suffered quite a setback last year in the

Holyrood election, bumped down to fifth place by the Greens at the

parliamentary election. That is a polite way of putting it,

especially after the aftermath of the Westminster outcome as well.

Where do they believe they are now? They believe they can corral two

positions. One, they say they are the only party pro UK and pro EU

without any backsliding from those. They believe that is where the

Scottish people are as well, taking account of the two referendums we've

had in 2014 and 2016. The challenge for Willie Rennie is to change could

let potential position in line with the zeitgeist into practical votes.

That is rather a challenge as he, his party and others have found in

the past. We are just hearing from the

conference behind you. There were some comments from Alex

Cole-Hamilton, a leading right, one of the party's MSPs in Scotland

today saying his party would block moves in the House of Commons for

that section 30 order. Yes, basically you have all sorts of

numbers flying around. We are anticipating Article 50 triggered by

the Prime Minister to begin the process of withdrawing Britain from

the European Union. Then could there be a request from the First Minister

perhaps at her conference this time next week, that there should be a

transfer under section 30 of the Scotland act 1998, the one that

deals with added powers? The added power she has in mind is the power

is in 2014, to call a referendum and call it under legitimate powers. If

that section 30 request is made Alex Cole-Hamilton is saying it would

have to go through Parliament at Westminster and he says his lot

would vote against it and seek to stop it. Thank you very much. Much

more from you later in the programme.

We are joined here for the duration of the programme by a man who almost

needs no introduction, Professor John Curtis of Strathclyde

University. Thank you for joining us. Just as Brian was saying, a

polite way of putting it to say the Greens, the Lib Dems were bumped

down to fifth place, of course. The truth is the Liberal Democrats have

been in deep electoral trouble since 2011. The most recent Holyrood

election, exactly the same as five years ruthlessly. What is now going

on is the party is hoping, not just in Scotland but across the UK as a

whole, to be able to use the debate about Brexit as a way of retraining

some credibility. We saw in the Richmond by-election in London in

the autumn, the party pulled off quite a spectacular victory and

since then across the UK as a whole, its vote in the opinion polls has

finally been up two or three points. It is now running at ten or 11

rather than the 8% in the general election. It is pretty clear those

voters gained are among those in favour of remaining. Here is the

party first in favour of the UK joining the EU, the party most

comfortable with the UK's mentorship of the European Union and looking to

go back to basics as far as its message is concerned, to try and get

voters back. The problem for the party north of the border is that

the field is a bit more crowded, because the SNP have also been

campaigning quite strongly in favour of Scotland remaining inside the

European Union, and indeed that's perhaps the reason Nicola Sturgeon

may call a second independence referendum. I think what we are

hearing that this conference is an attempt either Liberal Democrats to

say, hang on, we are also the real pro-EU party in Scotland, because at

the moment at least there isn't any evidence in the polls that the party

north of the border are profiting from the party's pro Brexit position

in the way the party has to some degree at least done in England and

Wales. What do you make of points made by Alex Cole-Hamilton in

Scotland today? One has to say it was a little surprising. Gordon

Brewer who was conducting the interview was probably also

surprised. It has to be said it seemed to cut across the comments

that Nick Clegg, the former party leader, gave in a briefing to

journalists after his speech yesterday, which I think we will see

more of later on, in which he suggested basically the same to the

Prime Minister there should be a fatwa on a second independence

referendum, suggesting although he didn't think there should be a

second referendum, that the UK Parliament should not stand in the

way of one should the request for one come. It might be suggested that

maybe Nick Clegg, as one of the nine Liberal Democrat MPs, and as the

party's European spokesman might be thought more of an authority on what

his party position might be on this than Alex Cole-Hamilton, excellent

though Alex Cole-Hamilton is. We have to see how it falls out.

Certainly it sounded though yesterday, that unlike the

Conservative conference last week, we were going to get an answer from

the Democrats about what they think should happen if Nicola Sturgeon

does request a second independence referendum. After this morning we

are left still in a degree of confusion. Thank you. More from you

later in the programme, as well. Earlier conference debated a motion

looking at how to keep the United Kingdom in the EU. Central to it was

a call for a referendum on the final terms of the deal between the UK

Government and the rest of the EU. It began with a speech by a certain

Alex Cole-Hamilton. Before June I have never cried about

an election result. As a Liberal Democrat given the decade we had

that is something of an achievement. On the morning of the 24th of June I

wept bitterly. It felt as though I had woken to a country I no longer

recognised. That 52% of my fellow people were at odds at everything I

hold dear. This referendum is one on a case that has long since

evaporated, an voodoo economics, xenophobia and amidst representation

of our entire relationship with European institutions. And now, in

the final analysis, the true cost of a hard Brexit is being measured out

in the abject terror etched on faces of academics, and economists. Today

I want to send a message to internationalists who rejected

independence in 2014 but are sick of Brexit and are toying with it in

order to regain their membership of the EU, Nicola Sturgeon is using

you. Nearly half of her party who voted supported leave and already

she is marching to the beat of their drum, desperate to keep the

independence coalition alive she has jettisoned any reference of four

mentorship of the EU, talking instead meekly about after and of

customs union. They cannot be trusted by those of us who care

about Europe. I'm going to go against the majority

view of this party for the simple reason it is unrealistic and

unfeasible. As much as it pains me to say this, the UK is leaving the

European Union and anyone who disagrees with Brexit is publicly

attacked by the right-wing media. Now I never had a say in it, but I

respect the view of England and Wales. But I also respect the will

of the Scottish people to remain, which I believe we must honour at

all costs. To do so is democratically acceptable and it is

of paramount importance that we defend our place in the European

Union. We simply cannot afford to fall in the footsteps of Labour and

the Conservatives in not respecting the European Union result in

Scotland. On independence, I was a no

supporter in 2014, but then I saw what happened last year. I changed

my mind, although I did love the UK, I've witnessed a sharp right turn in

people's views, talking about our friends, teachers, our colleagues

and doctors, like they're aliens with a vicious plot to destroy our

country. I don't want to live and an intolerant UK overrun by right-wing

populists. I want Scotland to be a member of a progressive, outward

looking confident with our friends at the European Union. Yesterday I

read an article by a Spanish member of the European Parliament, saying

they won't veto Scottish membership of the EU. I also saw an editor 's

Mori poll showing support for independence is neck and neck at the

moment. What does this show? It shows that more people in our

country are starting to think like me, and that obstacles are slowly

deteriorating. I'm unable to plan my future here

because I have a sword above me. Not only I didn't get a voice in the EU

referendum, but the Tory government had the audacity to use me and my

fellow EU expatriates as a bargaining chip in the hard Brexit

negotiations. We are threatened lose our job, our house, our lives that

we've built here. A very complex 85 page form for permanent residence.

Lib Dem research showed 28% of them, including those with British

families and children, have been rejected, sometimes for an un-ticked

box and we were told to be prepared to leave this country.

The former Deputy Prime Minister has warned delegates at the conference

that Brexit could lead to the end of the United Kingdom. Nick Clegg told

the audience to be on their guard against despair and defeatism and

attempted to make arguments for liberal values, at a time when he

sees national was on the rise. Brian Taylor caught up with him.

Nick Clegg, Thank you for joining us. With regard to Brexit, I get the

concept, but now we are where we are, what is your objective now,

what are you seeking? The main objective is now to give the British

people a proper say about what happens next, because let's remember

the referendum on the 23rd of June last year gave the mandate of the

government to proceed with Brexit, but it gave the British people

absolutely no idea, no depiction or notion of what kind of Brexit.

There's a lot of different versions of Brexit. The Brexiteers cleverly

and cynically withheld from the British people any description of

what kind of Brexit they were pursuing. The reason they withheld

that is they didn't want to frighten the horses at the time. So they won

a surprising victory in the ballot box, but the cost of a complete sort

of vacuum as to what happens next. Of course, it should be the British

people in charge of our collective fate, just as they were in terms of

the initial decision. That's why we say when we finally know what Brexit

finally in tales from subsidies to fisheries to our trade relations and

so on, give the British people the first say in what Brexit really

means in substance. With that further referendum be only on the

details of the terms or might it involve reversing Brexit altogether,

putting a stop to it altogether? If the British people were to say when

we're right at the edge of the cliff at that point, we don't want to jump

off and we'd rather stay on terra firma, clearly it would be then for

us as a nation to decide whether we are after all want to stay in the

European Union. My own view... You could see as a prospect, that Brexit

doesn't happen? I can only see that as a prospect of the British people

change their mind. It seems to me that one of the absolute central

elements of any democracy is the freedom to change your mind when the

facts change. Now at the moment we don't know what Brexit looks like. I

hope people like me, will have the humility that if Brexit turns out to

be a wonderful success, as Boris Johnson says, it will be

splendiferous and a wonderful utopia. The deal? Yes, then I hope

people like me would have the humility to say we were wrong.

Equally, just imagine if the numerous predictions that Brexit

isn't going to be a walk in a park or an economic paradise, creating

difficulties for families up and down the country you should give the

family is the right to say what then happens. Theresa May would say a

parliamentary vote on the Parliamentary vote would be yes to

the terms or we leave without any terms. You are saying there should

be a public, popular vote and it would be either yes to the terms or

we stay in Europe? Theresa May's position at the moment is ludicrous.

She says Parliament should have a vote but I will only give Parliament

vote between what might be a bad deal, so a rubbish deal, and chaos.

Since when is any Parliament, let alone the mother of all

Parliaments... What we are saying is if and when there is a deal, if and

when there is a deal you then have a choice. Either Theresa May decides

legally on behalf of the whole nation whether we go ahead with it

or not, or the politicians do, or the people. I think in keeping with

the initial kind of decision to proceed towards Brexit, the decision

to finally sort of sign and seal it should be taken by the people.

Either way, this is not some sort of kooky Lib Dem idea but advocated by

David Davis, John Redwood and many Brexiteers in the past. They've now

rather conveniently fallen silent because they think they have the

country over a barrel and are going to proceed with hard Brexit at any

cost. You would put the alternative accept the terms of the deal or stay

in the European Union, that would be the alternative? Or go back to the

negotiating table. A multiple option? I think when you have the

referendum, as we know for better or for worse, referendums are guilty of

simplifying difficult choices, now you know what Brexit entails and

what it means for your family, do you still want it yes or no. And no

would be used in the European Union? I think legally no would of course

be Britain... And I suspect many other European countries would hold

their heads in the hands that Britain said we want to go, then

stay, and then stay after all. I know having spoken to many leaders

of the European Union, however sad they are Britain wants to leave on

how exasperated they are by this coming and going over the 40 years

we've been a member of the European Union, they all, they all in the

final instance believe it would be better for the European Union to be

a family of nations working together, rather than falling apart.

Some of your rivals would call this... Saying it was a way of

getting around June 23. Do you think it's feasible Britain will remain in

the EU at the end of this process? I think it is possible, not

necessarily likely but possible. Events are changing so dramatically.

I will tell you why I don't think it's impossible. If you and I had

received, and millions of other voters, in the run-up to the

referendum in June, had received a manifesto will with photos of Boris

Johnson, Nigel Farage, Michael Gove on the front cover and a nice

introduction saying, this is our collective view of the kind of

Brexit we want, in and out of the singles market and Customs union and

so on, then people like me would now not have a leg to stand on, because

not only would they have gained the mandate to proceed towards Brexit,

they would have gained the mandate from the British people on the terms

of the Brexit. They very deliberately and cynically didn't do

that. They actually still don't agree among themselves about what

sort of Brexit they want. That is why there is still a decision to be

made, which is yes we are proceeding towards Brexit. We don't know what

kind of Brexit. That surely... It's not a technical matter, it's a

matter of profound constitutional significance, what kind of Brexit,

hard Brexit or soft Brexit, a disruptive one or less disruptive

one. The people should have the final say. Nick Clegg, thank you

very much indeed for joining me. Nick Clegg there are of course.

Brian is back live now. Yes, joined by two parliamentarians.

Thank you both for joining us. Mike Rumbles and Mike Purvis. Let's talk

Europe first of all. We've been hearing that Europe debate, the

contributions from Nick Clegg, the former leader. You talk about this

referendum on the Brexit terms. That is a diddle, a way of saying we lost

and with sore and we want to run the contest again. The point we made

repeatedly in the House of Lords, and we were the strongest in the

House of Lords when it came to trying to change the Article 50 bill

to reflect what I think it's a growing desire in the country, it's

the people who should decide, weather and exit deal with the EU is

in their interest. The voters of leave would say your loss, give in

and don't try and run it again. To hold it again and again until you

get the answer you like stubble or they might say that but they would

be arguing probably the same case they have been arguing for 25 years

and longer. We can set that aside. The real issue is the youngest

people, many of which were not in referendum at all, the 16 and

17-year-olds, will have an average 60 years to live with this

consequence of what will be decided in the next few years, we believe

very strongly they should decide if the exit deal is in the best

interests for themselves. That's why we made the case in Parliament. We

will continue to make that case on Monday in the House of Lords,

because I believe the people are the best of the is the best deal or not.

Mike Rumbles, on the point of principle, if you like. Isn't it

arguable that you should now just accept the position and try without

rather than seeking to overturn it? I think the differences we accept

the decision of the British on the referendum but when the referendum

negotiations are over it shouldn't be the Prime Minister and Cabinet to

decide on the terms with which we leave the EU. We need to know what

the deal is and we need to tell the British people and the British

people are sovereign on this. We should be saying to them, here is

the deal the Prime Minister has negotiated. Do you want to accept

this deal or not? The first referendum was only the start of the

process. The end of the process is a rubber stamp from the voters, from

the people, to save this is right or wrong. Let's talk about the House of

Lords again. You mentioned the Lords have sent it back to the Commons

with two crucial amendment, saying there should be an actual real

Parliamentary vote at the end and there should be a sanction the EU

members to stay. If the Commons just chuck throws back on this know is

that the end of it or do you see it going back and forth? We believe

very strongly these are of fundamental importance. Whether the

Labour Party will crumble in the House of Commons as they did in the

House of Lords we will see on Monday evening. This is something where, we

are the party that wanted to reform the Lords, we wanted it to be a

democratic -- democratically elected chamber. We will use those powers

and if anything, the speech I made in the Article 50, I'm casting votes

for the next generation and for the young people in Scotland and across

the whole of the UK that didn't vote for Brexit, they need a voice and I

want to be that voice. Today they will argue the Liberal Democrats can

represent a majority, pro-EU, pro-UK, a majority in Scotland

because of the outcome of the two referendums but you are not

demonstrating that on the ground in terms of popular support. We are

starting from a pretty low level but going upwards. The opinion polls are

up, our council elections victory is a wrap. All measures of electoral

support are up. We have a tremendous opportunity now to convince the

Scottish people that we are the only party out there that want the United

Kingdom together and want to be in the European Union. Do you expect

there to be a second referendum on independence? Do you expect that to

happen? I don't expect it to happen because the First Minister doesn't

have a mandate for it. If it comes to the Scottish Parliament, we are

committed to voting against this because there is no mandate. I tell

you why, because she is usurping my vote on the vote of many people like

me last year when she says Scotland voted to stay in the European Union.

On the ballot paper, my ballot paper said we wanted the UK to remain in

the European Union. She doesn't have a mandate. Nick Clegg takes a

different view and says they shouldn't be a fatwa from the Prime

Minister. Admittedly he says he's against the idea of a second

referendum. Would you as part of parliamentarians at Westminster seek

to block the section 30 power being transferred back to Scotland?

Currently we have no idea what Nicola Sturgeon is wanting to put

forward and we have no idea what Theresa May and the Conservatives

are doing. Clarity on the Liberal Democrat position. There is no

question that needs to be clarity. Mike has given the position... From

the Scottish party that we don't even want it to get out of Holyrood,

because we stood on our manifesto campaign. There's no question.

Anyone watching the should have no question, we don't support another

Scottish referendum. Even if the people... We had the referendum

once, once-in-a-lifetime. That was supposed to close down the whole

issue. The difference with the European referendum is that

referendum last year started the process and we need to finish it.

What we should have done in the independence referendum, that was a

stop and close because the Scottish people clearly said no, we want to

stay within the United Kingdom. I beg your pardon, we have to stop

there, going into the hall itself... Willie Rennie is about to speak,

let's hear him. Thank you for that very warm welcome

and thank you for joining our team of spokespeople. I know you will be

a great addition to the team, applying that strong and determined

mind to the environment. Thank you again for that introduction.

APPLAUSE 2017 of the year of anniversaries in

the Rennie family. My parents marked their 60th year of

marriage. Janet and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary. Our first

son Alexander was born 21 years ago. And just for a bit of advance

warning, my 50th is in September! LAUGHTER

Janet and I set up our first home in a little village in Cornwall.

Alexander was born in the hospital in Plymouth. My father served his

National Service in Staffordshire. My first proper job was in Cornwall.

My son's first job was at Butlins in Somerset. That's my family. Our

family story is like so many others in Scotland, and the rest of the

United Kingdom. Our lives are intertwined, connected, we are one.

Our lives are intertwined as well with people from all across Europe

who have set up their home here. Europeans who live, work, pay their

taxes, have married and brought up their families here. Like my Polish

sister-in-law moniker, living and working in Scotland for a decade and

now choosing to make Homer with her new family here in Scotland. We are

one. So the debate on the constitution is personal. It's not a

dry and dusty debate about government structures. It's about

family, community, destiny. I want to bring communities and peoples

together, not drive them apart. That is why I will oppose erecting a

barrier, any barrier, in the heart of my family. Just like I will

oppose erecting a barrier, any barrier, in the heart of the United

Kingdom more European Union. The United Kingdom is our family, the

European Union is our family and we stand together with our family.

APPLAUSE Erecting barriers and division

between us and the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

with independence is just as objectionable as the division we are

seeing with the people of Europe, as a result of Brexit. It upsets me

when I hear conservatives describing European people as takers not

givers. That somehow they are only interested in what they can get from

our welfare state and NHS. It upsets me when I hear Nationalists describe

British people as the far right, selfish, mean-spirited and insular.

Conservatives want me to choose my British family over my European

family. Nationalists want me to choose my European family over my

British family. My message to them both is clear... I choose my family

over your division. APPLAUSE

It looks as if the First Minister is determined to rerun the referendum

of only three years ago. It is not a battle I want. After all the

divisions of the last campaign, and we will not vote for it. But if the

Nationalists think that by asking the question over and over again

they will beat us into submission, then they need to think again. And

by the way, it will take more than threatening to bring back Alex

Salmond to make us change our mind, too. I will stand up for our United

Kingdom family. We will lead the way on the kind of campaign for the

United Kingdom that we want to see. We should set the terms.

There is much talk about the economy. I am sure some businesses

may benefit from independence. I have heard there is particular

excitement at the prospect of an order is room at the flag factories

of Falkirk and the face painters of Arbroath. I can tell you, they are

absolutely over the moon at the prospect of another independence

referendum. But we know the economic case for independence is weaker than

even in 2014. So I will not dwell on that today. The new case for the

United Kingdom is a positive, uplifting one that focuses on the

ties that bind us rather than the differences that some would use to

divide us. It is that emotional case, it is the liberal case for

unity, the compassionate case, it goes to the heart of who we are.

Britain is full of people who care. We together care about the

environment, poverty at home and abroad, the sick the elderly, the

young. Our country is jammed of people who want a better world. The

Oxford committee for famine relief was a group of concerned citizens

who first met in 1942 to relieve famine in Greece. You know what,

today they are Oxfam. In the wake of the First World War one woman and

her sister campaigned for children. In the early 20s they filled a ship

with 600 tonnes of aid bound for Russia, to save the lives of 300,000

children and more than 350,000 adults. Save the children now helps

over 17 million children every year. Both charities, born in the heart of

Britain, showing compassion to the world. British people with

compassion and care, and digging into their pocket. We should

celebrate our generosity and compassion, it is a mark of who we

are. No Scottish Nationalists will tell me I should be ashamed of that.

I am proud of who we are. APPLAUSE

And that compassion has built some of the best public services too. It

is why we built the best Health Service in the world. The second

biggest aid budget in the world. The welfare state to help people in

need. Public compassion has driven that state action. Of course, there

are political differences within our country. But so there are in

Scotland too. You just need to travel from Perth here to Dundee to

see those differences. Think about this - there are ten times as many

Remain voters in England as there are in Scotland. Think about this -

the majority of people in England did not vote for the Conservatives.

Just because some English people have repugnant views does not make

the entirety of them repugnant. Just as some Scottish people have

offensive opinions, does not make us all offensive either. Nigel Farage,

that tweed clad xenophobe is not representative of all English

people, just as Edward Coburn is not represent idea of all Scots. I

admire the great historical figures of progress from all parts of

Britain. Emlin ParkHurst on votes for women. William beverage,

building the Welfare State, our United Kingdom is an uplifting,

mutely beneficial partnership that we should cherish, not thrash.

APPLAUSE So if we head into another

referendum, the responsibility on liberals is great. We must stand up

and be counted for our values. This is a Battle of Ideas, not of

identities and flags. We must stand up for our family, whether in

Britain or across Europe. We must make the positive, open

internationalist case, tell our friends about how compassionate,

tolerant and generous the United Kingdom is. Send a message of hope

that things can be better still. We should be like Laura Muir, always

willing to run another lap. We can turn back the tide of division. We

can celebrate both our differences and the tie that is bind us. We can

say no to independence and yes to partnership. We can once and for all

put an end to the claim that if you do not believe in independence, you

do not believe in Scotland. APPLAUSE

So if our First Minister gambles with our country again, I can tell

you now that the Liberal Democrats will campaign for Scotland's

partnership with the United Kingdom. We will not just campaign with

numbers on a spreadsheet, but with smiles in our hearts. I want all

people who live in this country to rise up and say we stand with our

neighbours. That we cherish the compassion of British people and we

value our partnership. Our job is to turn back the tied of division.

APPLAUSE The Conservatives have been gambling

too. Their EU referendum gamble put their party before our country.

Reckless on the economy. Risking our security. Threatening our

environment. Diminishing our place in the world. Holding Donald Trump's

tiny hand. All to unite a fractured party. More interested in reaching

for the past than recognising the modern Britain we have become. This

is the biggest change in our international posture in a

generation. From partnership through global organisations, to a futile

attempt to build our own power base in the world. Theresa May knows the

price of Brexit. Ruth Davidson, she knows the cost, but they both charge

towards the cliff at an ever faster rate. In the Budget, the Chancellor

had to create a war chest to fight off the effects of Brexit. It's a

colossal ?60 billion. On our own doorstep, a university has told us

that they're cutting 100 jobs and say Brexit is one of the reasons.

And the prices in the shops are on the rise. Energy prices are on the

rise. Jobs are being lost. That's the hard cost of a Conservative

Brexit. It is hitting us in our pockets and costing our country dear

and we haven't even left the European Union. It turns out the

Conservatives are building a wall and they're expecting us to pay for

it. It's reckless and we will oppose it.

APPLAUSE Now, of course, we must respect the

result of the referendum. But political leaders have got a

responsibility to lead. And leadership is what this country is

missing at one of the most significant periods in modern

political times. Labour has shown an astonishing level of indifference to

the fate of our country. No challenge. No questions. Just

compliance. They have turned the fine tradition of her imagine tee's

loyal opposition to her imagine tee's obedient opposition. That's

why it would only be right for the British people to take charge of the

final say on whatever deal is agreed by the Conservative Government with

the EU. A Brexit deal referendum is the right and democratic thing to

do. When they look back at this time, our grandchildren will be

astonished that they did not take our time and ask ourselves the

question whether we really wanted this. When the Brexit deal proves to

be so damaging, why would we not ask the British people a new question? I

told this conference in the autumn that I will not give up on Europe

and I won't. We can win the case. Public opinion can change. We saw it

with the invasion of Iraq. From jeering our Charles Kennedy in the

street at the start, people turned to oppose the Iraq war. Political

leadership is sometimes about persuading people, not just

repeating what the last focus group told you. That's followership, when

the jobs are lost and the mortgages rise and the prices ib cease and the

foreign investment declines and the cost becomes ever more apparent, the

mood, the view, the opinion of the merit of Brexit will go into

reverse. Our job, as Liberal Democrats, will be to be there, to

be the gathering place, to give the leadership to win the cause, that's

our purpose and that is what we will do.

APPLAUSE The Conservatives have abandoned the

internationalist posture. This country has built over generations.

The Labour Party timidly accept that approach. The SNP was to compound

the break-up of Europe with a break-up of the United Kingdom. And

this week, we heard from Jim Sellers. He says he won't back

independence if it means being in the European Union. He speaks for

one in three independent supporters who also backed Brexit. Alex Salmond

have been unusually coy on this subject. You haven't heard any

senior nationalist say the only way to keep Scotland in the EU is to

have independence. They used to say that all of the time. They did that,

didn't they? Do you remember? They used to say it all the time. Now,

they never do. They now say that their dissatisfaction with the UK

Government transcends the issue of Europe. So the evidence is mounting.

The nationalists are preparing a sell-out of Europe in a desperate

bid to win independence. Some people have thought about whether perhaps

Scottish independence is the best way to stay in the EU. But it's

clear to me that if you trust the SNP on this then you are going to be

disappointed. So let me tell you of the fundamental risk that

independence now poses. It is to leave Scotland outside the United

Kingdom, and outside the European Union. The worst of all worlds. What

a disaster that would be. APPLAUSE

I tell you, there is a better way. The best way for us to stay in the

European Union is through the United Kingdom, with the economic

consequences of Brexit becoming clear, people like John Major, Alan

Johnson, Tony Blair, backing a re-think. Our victory in Richmond

Park showing there is momentum in the UK for change. We have the

nation's eyes upon us and we won. Even Bob Geldof campaigned in

Richmond High Street with me! By the way, it was a good job he came on a

Wednesday because I'm told he doesn't like Mondays!

I knew you would love that one. You have to be of a certain age to

understand that one! I noticed you all laughed. Pro-EU

people should not fall for the nationalist trick. They should back

the only pro EU party, the party that will never use Europe for

narrow ends. The party that has always stood up for Europe. The

Scottish Liberal Democrats. APPLAUSE

It is the Liberal Democrats that speak for the majority of people in

our country. A majority of people in Scotland voted for Scotland to

remain in the United Kingdom. We stand with them. And a majority of

people in Scotland voted for the United Kingdom to remain in the

European Union. And we stand with them too. No one else stands with

the majority of Scotland for the United Kingdom and for the European

Union. Liberal Democrats do. And we will stand against the actions of

the political fire raisers of our time. A majority of people in

Scotland want to keep the United Kingdom, but the SNP want to burn it

down. They do not speak for Scotland. And a majority of people

in Scotland want to keep the European Union, but the

Conservatives want to burn that down. They do not speak for

Scotland. They are each lighting the match in response to the actions of

the others, determined to start fires that threaten our economy,

security, and our environment. Scotland has had enough of their

fire raising. It is our job to put those fires out.

APPLAUSE And it doesn't have to be like this.

We can build a better future for the whole UK. Last week Kezia Dugdale

made the case for federalism. Welcome Kez! It makes a change to

see Labour fighting the battles of 2017, not 1983 or 1970 in Moscow in

John McDonnell's case. LAUGHTER

We have the opportunity to build something bigger. To grow the

movement for a federal UK. It's federalism that we have been

advocating for 100 years. In the last 20, we have seen the idea

develop. Power is now shared around the UK more than ever before. We can

do more. Federalism is the wrong term and viable future for the UK

that saves us from the forces of perpetual division. It would move us

on from the Punch and Judy show of Westminster versus the rest. So that

is why I can tell you today that I have appointed Jeremy Purvis to lead

a new group that will work with people from other parties and none

to develop the case for federalism in the United Kingdom. More and more

people from different parties and different parts of Britain are

looking at federalism. We will be there to help bring them together.

If you are tired of division, tired of history repeating and repeating

and repeating, fed-up with the fires that destroy then it is the time to

try something new. Federalism is the stable, secure and respectful future

that we can bring. APPLAUSE

And while the SNP and Conservatives are busy lighting fires, they ignore

the need to get on with the day job. There is work to be done. Scottish

education used to be one of the best in the world. It is now slipping

down the international rankings. Reforms, they're chaotic and

regressive. On mental health, we once had a world leading mental

health strategy. But now we don't even have one anymore. The SNP have

left it to rot. During the Budget talks with the SNP we discovered

that they are much further behind on mental health than even we feared.

The SNP reeled against the council tax for decades, describing it as

evil and unfair. But now they have saved it from abolition. They

ignored their own independent commission, forced through arbitrary

increase and rocked the council tax in place for another generation. And

then there is Keith Brown, our economy secretary. Not only is our

economy lagging behind the rest of the UK, with growth slower,

employment lower, productivity still behind, there was Amazon. He paid

them millions of pounds in grants, but didn't bother to check if they

paid the proper Living Wage. And then there was China. He got the

First Minister, his boss, to sign an agreement worth, we were told, a

whopping ?10 billion, but he didn't bother to check on their Human

Rights record first. It was not good. One stands accused of

corruption and abuse in Africa. And he didn't bother to check if the

company had any money to spend, but it turns out they didn't, they run a

pub in the Cotswolds! This is true. LAUGHTER

No Living Wage, no Human Rights check, no money. . These people

aspire to run an independent country, but they do not run a Human

Rights check-in a china shop up the Amazon!

APPLAUSE But it does not have to be like

this. Liberal Democrats engage constructively with the Scottish

Government to try to make improvements, big improvements, to

its budget. Ours was a ?400 million package for our economy through

investing in people. For mental health, with support for early

intervention and in primary care the police and A departments. For

investment in colleges, to bring back part-time courses especially

for women and mature students. For a pupil premium in schools that has

been proven to give poorer children the opportunity to be all they can

be. For more cash into our police to help them recover from the botched

SNP centralisation. This was a chance for the Scottish Parliament

to use the new powers that we argued and campaigned for. This was a

chance to deliver a positive programme of reform to make our

country the best again. But this was a missed chance because the SNP just

wouldn't do it because they had their eye on a very different prize.

It's time to get on with the day job, to focus on our people, to make

a difference for everyone. This is not the time to divide our country

once again with yet another independence debate.

APPLAUSE And there are six weeks until we

have a chance to send a message on all of this. The council elections

are a chance for us to show who we are. We have a message of hope, not

division. A Liberal Democrat council elected council will be an advocate,

not a cheerleader for independence. They will be an advocate for better

mental health, for investment in education, for a stronger economy

against a Conservative hard Brexit, for Scotland in the United Kingdom.

And for an end to the council tax. That's a positive plan of action for

every part of Scotland. APPLAUSE

As you would expect, I've been knocking on doors and speaking with

voters across the country. I have joined some of our excellent

candidates who are leading the way. Carol Ford from Glasgow Trish

Robertson, Clare Graham from Musselburgh, Rosie O'Neill, Lauren

Jones, Kevin Lang, I'm not going to list them all, Ben Laurie, Chris

Dickinson, Katrina Campbell, I have been on the doors with Alex and Liam

and Mike who have been working hard at Holyrood and then getting out to

support our local candidates in the evenings. First class. Dedicated

advocates for their communities, all and everyone of them and I want

everyone of you here to support them.

APPLAUSE We have a great team. We need strong

liberal voices for the challenges we all have ahead. The optimistic

forces. The liberal case. The international posture. It needs

standard bearers. As we face the forces of division, we have to ask

ourselves who we are, and what we will do. The question that will be

asked of us in years to come when people ask about this time is this -

what did you do? When the world in 2016 and 2017 faced Brexit, Trump,

Le Pen in France, Vilders in the Netherlands, what did you do? What

did you do when our country of 300 years faced break-up? I don't want

just to say that we mocked them for their terrible hair! I want to be

able to say we stood strong more the international liberal answer the we

stood with Justin through dough for refugees with a manual macron for

social progress, for D# 6 and Mark Riter in the Netherlands for values

and for the positive values for the hole of the UK free from the

division of the SNP. We will be able to say we stood for a better, open,

positive world, based on partnership, trust and generosity of

spirit. What did we do? We did the liberal thing and we got back to

winning again. Thank you. APPLAUSE

Willie Rennie there receiving a standing ovation at the Lib Dem

spring conference in Perth. He said the debate on the constitution is

personal. It's about family, community, destiny. He said the

economic case for independence was weaker than in 2014. He said the new

case for the UK is positive and uplifting. He said a Brexit deal

referendum is a right and democratic thing to do. A Scottish independence

would leave Scotland out of the UK and the EU and he said he would

stand up for the majority of Scotlanders saying that he stood up

for the UK and the EU, federalism, the long-term future for the UK. He

announced a cross-party group on federalism too. Professor John

Curtis is still with me watching the pictures in the hall in Perth. John,

just your initial reaction to Willie Rennie's speech? Well there, is the

third conference speech that we have had of the Scottish party season and

it is another conference speech where the issue of whether or not

there should or shouldn't be a referendum has been central and

indeed a speech which almost yet again seems to be written on the

assumption that Nicola Sturgeon at some point in the not too distant

future will be asking for a second independence referendum. In add van

of today's speech we were told Mr Rennie would layout the emotional

case for staying inside the EU. That case seemed to be basically a belief

that the United Kingdom is actually a progressive, compassionate country

in his point of view and that's reflected in his work in Oxfam and

the National Health Service, etcetera. I'm not quite sure this

will necessarily go down as a major contribution and a major original

contribution to the case for the European Union, for Scotland

remaining inside the UK. What was the rather more interesting part of

the speech was the argument in which he suggested that actually although

the reason why perhaps we might have a second independence referendum is

because Scotland voted Remain inside the European Union. That actually

perhaps the SNP will ditch that argument as if indeed the referendum

is called because of an awareness that around one in three of those

who voted yes in September 2014 actually voted to leave the European

Union and are therefore trying to predicate the argument for

independence as a means of keeping Scotland inside the European Union

may provide divisive. That was interesting. I think a different

line of attack on the SNP. In a sense a notice to the SNP if they

try to do that, Willie Rennie will be reminding us why are we having

this referendum to keep Scotland inside the European Union, why have

we dropped it and the Liberal Democrats will keep on going on

about it. That was the most interesting part of the speech. He

is trying to do, as we suggested at the beginning of the programme, is

to suggest it is only the Liberal Democrats who are the pro-European

party. He wants to undermine the credentials of the SNP on that

count. John, thank you very much. Well, let's head back to the

conference hall in Perth for live reaction now. Brian Taylor is

standing by with some guests. Brian. Two SNPs. What was playing the Who

and Teenage Wasteland? It was a barn storming speech. Let's talk about

the European referendum. You want a further one on the Brexit terms and

he was trying to suggest that the SNP cannot be trusted on European

Union membership and the best way to keep Scotland in the EU is through

the UK, really? Article 50 is about to be triggered we've leaving as the

UK surely? We are the only party who stands in the space occupied by the

majority of the Scottish people who voted to reject independence in 14

and voted to remain in the last referendum in 2016 and the policies

we've under scored with that at this weekend, underpin us as the main

party. Those people should gather to, who want to stay in the UK and

want to stay in the EU. I get it, you corrale these two things

together, but it's stretching it a bit, is it not, to say the way for

Scotland to stay in the EU is to stay attached to a United Kingdom

that's on the verge of leaving the European Union, we're about to

trigger the departure signal, surely? The argument Willie was

getting across, it is evident from the remarks from Jim Sellers and

others and indeed the way the vote panned out amongst yes supporters,

the support for Brexit, for Leave was significant and a party that's

been hell bent on independence at any cost over the last number of

years cannot be trusted. I think your argument for remaining part of

the European Union, where you're collaborating with your partners,

where you give-and-take is undermined, if at the same time

you're making exactly the reverse argument within the context of the

union you're currently a member of. Jim Sellers doesn't speak for the

SNP? He speaks for a large part of the yes in the nationalist movement

and that hasn't been discounted. The point Willie was making. We have

heard little from Alex Salmond or from Mike Russell. Two people who

have never been shy of grabbing any available mic at the first

opportunity to give the Scots the been fit of their wisdom. Clarify

things, Alec. We have had others say, you guys as a party would vote

against any means of bringing about a second independence referendum, a

section 30 transfer? We stood for election last year on a mandate that

was clear to oppose a second referendum on independence. And we

have our instructions from the electorate so we will act

accordingly and vote consistently to block a second referendum. Some

would say you got your instruckses from the electorate on 23rd June

which was to get out of the yurp, but you still want to have another

referendum on that, on the terms, that's hypocrisy? Nearly 50% of the

people of Great Britain would love to stay part of the EU, yet we are

the only political party that stands with them in that firm mament, it is

in the finest traditions of democracy... You lost on 23rd June.

You lost. You lost the argument. You lost the vote. The SNP lost the

independence referendum in 2014 yet you would never expect... You're

trying to stop them from having a say. You want a second referendum on

Europe? I think it is acceptable, except on the Brexit referendum in

June last year, there was a vote to leave. I don't think anybody would

dispute the fact that point of departure has been consented to by

the British public. What they have not signed up to is the hard Brexit,

the mandate that Theresa May and her colleagues seem to be hell bent on

taking forward and I think it is only right that the British people

have an opportunity to express their views on what that point of

destination is. Is the difference in 2014 we had a White Paper, the White

Paper you derided... I have met a few of the authors of that White

Paper. Setting out proposals for independence and in 2016, there was

no such thing. It was just a Brexit? The concept of what Brexit meant was

very different depending on which leader of the Leave campaign you

listened to. Subsequently some of the key messages from the Leave

campaign about remaining part of the single market, not leaving the

customs union, the ?350 million for our NHS, all of those have been cast

aside. That calls into question the mandate. It makes it imperative that

the British public have an opportunity to express their opinion

on the detail of what it is that Theresa May and her colleagues

finally negotiate. If they express that opinion, could it be in your

view that Britain remains in the European Union rather than leaving

as was suggested from 23rd June? Sepp

That ?350 million to the NHS, for example, evaporated. When we

understand what had Brexit means, the isolation and economic collapse,

you will see that needle of public opinion move more in the favour of

the decision and our party is taking at this conference to stand up for

those who have an internationalist perspective on one based in the EU.

Do you think there will be, regardless of your opposition, do

you think there will be another independence referendum, perhaps

next year? I think ever since the EU referendum Nicola Sturgeon has been

using that as a Trojan horse to get another referendum and a crack at

the whip. She will look at back at this, and should've won a look back

in 20 years and they, what would've happened if I just pulled the

trigger? There is almost certainty behind a second referendum. I think

she's been dropping ever more obvious hints about her intentions.

I think with the support of the Green Party in the Scottish

Parliament she see a pathway towards it. I think however some of the

apprehension she has shown up until now, is the fact she knows what the

polls suggest, that there is an overwhelming desire to go down this

route again, to open up the divisions that frankly, whatever the

energising effect of that last referendum, the way it divided

families, communities, workplaces, is not something many people want to

see again. Would you fight it? Another better together? It looks

like it wouldn't be. That is an interesting aspect. It took up the

bulk of Willie Rennie's speech. The economic argument for independence

is dead, is owned by Andrew Wilson and some of the White Paper itself.

I think we see oil prices at the moment... He would not say he has

disowned the argument. I think the economic argument now is not strong.

Would you work with Labour and Tories? We need to find a more

positive way of putting the argument, finding the things that

unite us. Dum Project Fear and go for project positive? There needs to

be a more positive argument. If you look at the Brexit campaign, by

sticking to the dry figures there's an fear you end up losing. Could it

be a joined up campaign with the three principal pro-European

parties? One of the key principles of liberalism is pluralism. We

believe we won't turn face against other parties, or groups who want to

work together to make a positive case for us remaining in the United

Kingdom. I think that is the only way we can take down that formidable

Nationalists campaign that we saw in 2014, that has been gearing up for

this for the last two years. They've been waiting for the go order. We

ignore those other like-minded groups at our peril. Thank you for

joining us. Particular grateful to you as you came here instead of

watching the rugby. That is dedication! STUDIO: All very

dedicated, thank you for that. Delegates at have also condemned the

Chancellor's budget on Wednesday as fundamentally unfair. They accused

the UK Government of piling the greater burden on people who, as

they put it, are feeling the Brexit squeeze. Lord Purvis said it was

affirmation of the cost of Brexit on our pockets.

With the context of Brexit, the hardest of hardest of Brexit is the

government wished to bring, what is the budget we see within that

context? Well, the sound constitutional reasons the House of

Lords will not be voting on this budget but we will have a voice. I

will certainly have a voice. That voice will be highlighting that we

believe it is unfair for very many thousands of people in Scotland

working very hard who are self-employed. But it does say

something, does it not conference, when perhaps the least popular

Chancellor in living memory, Norman Lamont, criticise the budget and the

Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson supported it? What does that mean?

That means that it highlights perhaps more than anything else the

difference between the conservative approach to budgets and finance and

ours. We have budget fairness that is the hallmark of our approach.

Yes, investing in public services, but making sure that those who had

the broadest shoulders carry most of the burden. With Ruth Davidson it is

the other way round. She had the audacity even this week, to say that

any increase budget for the Scottish parliament should be used as tax

breaks for the wealthiest. We will be campaigning in Price and across

the UK as a combined Liberal Democrat party against these

changes. I am self-employed and these tax

changes affect me directly. I want to say first I don't necessarily

object to paying higher taxes. We should increase taxes, what I

disagree with is the Chancellor's assertions of employed people now

apparently have the same benefits as employed people. Which made no sense

to me when I heard it, it made no sense to me the third, fourth, fifth

or sixth time I read it. I would like to give you some examples of

how self employed people don't have the same benefits. I don't have the

right to an employer pension, which won't be compulsory in the next

couple of years. I don't have any entitlement to holiday pay or sixth

leave or anything like that. I don't have the ability to access a union

if I want. All of these things are things I have sacrificed in order to

work in the industry I've chosen. That is my choice, and I'm willing

to accept the consequences of that, but to say I get the same deals as

employed people is not true. Public services like education and

mental health desperately starved of funds, the Chancellor provide is no

money to invest in these services that are desperately needed.

Instead, what do we have? We have ?60 billion, a massive sum, ?60

billion as a contingency fund for Brexit. That is what the Chancellor

thinks Brexit is going to cost the country. I don't remember the leaves

campaign putting that up on their buses, Vote Leave and it will cost

you ?60 billion. That's just one of the many misrepresentations of the

Leave campaign. And the one thing that people do remember about the

budget was that national insurance increased for the self-employed. A

blatant breach of the manifesto pledge. Remember the Tory

manifesto... David Cameron and George Osborne proudly proclaiming

no increases of income tax, VAT on national insurance. No mention of

any small print, a blatant breach of a manifesto pledge. Now we have a

party know full well that damage breaking a manifesto pledge can cost

you. So let's make it perfectly clear that the Tories have broken a

manifesto pledge on the country should not forgive them for it. We

already have the lowest population tax rate in the G20, but bear in

mind a company actually has to pay tax before this kicks in. We need a

progressive, simplified tax system. Arguably national insurance should

be linked to PAYE. These lines are being blurred. Rather than shifting

the limited amount of money around, let's have a party that leads from

the front in terms of progressive tax policy across the board.

One of our strongest selling point is local economy. It something we

need to invest in but we are aware, as two local authorities, there is a

brain train. Because of the lack of infrastructure investment, lack of

broadband or transport or opportunities for our younger

people, our creative industries are dying. This is not going to help. I

can't believe the Conservatives can be so blind sighted in not

representing our communities well, particularly where we have great

talent coming out the Scottish Borders and elsewhere in Scotland in

creative industries and other areas that could support real

entrepreneurial spirit. Conservatives yet again, you have

let the UK down, you have let Scotland down, you have let -- let

the Liberal Democrats lead the way. APPLAUSE

Some of the applause at the end of the budget debate at the Lib Dem

conference. Brian is back now with some guests. He has got hold of some

delegates. Indeed so. Thank you. You introduced

Willie Rennie. Presumably you liked the speech? Yes, yes, I thought it

was fantastic. It really got across the message, they EU appeal, the

emotions that people feel, people feeling the possibility of a second

independence referendum is dividing them from their families. Instead of

attacking he was trying to make this passionate case for the union. That

struck me as a bit different. We've heard it before perhaps but a bit

different. This is important, it is ultimately about people's lives. The

same as Brexit. People's families are being torn apart and it's just,

it's not acceptable that we don't consider the human aspect of it all.

Chris, you got a name check so presumably you are very happy?

Absolutely, delighted. It comes down to the hard work local council

candidates are doing in the campaign to identify issues in their local

communities and be local champions. Holding the government to account on

so many of their failings. You didn't get a name check and you

didn't introduce him, but we can count your one of the tribe he

wanted out there, is that right? What did you make of the speech? Are

far too long the SNP have tried to claim heart means independence. What

Willie did today is saying heart is part of us being proud of our

country, part of the UK, part of the EU, we are the only party doing

that. It's uplifting, it's a message of hope. We need to deny what the

SNP is saying is the truth because it's not. He did say that and said

it very strongly, said that the majority position in Scotland.

That's one job to translate from that into support on the doorsteps.

Not just a council elections but generally. You have struggled in the

last few elections at Westminster and Holyrood. Yes, but in the last

year we have won 31 council by-elections. Won Richmond, got

close in Whitby and close in Copeland. People don't want a second

referendum on independence and also the upset people felt in England

with Brexit is what we experienced in Scotland. You said you don't want

a second referendum on independence but Willie Rennie's speech was

predicated on the fact it looks like it will happen. We don't want one

and we feel we are stronger together as part of the United Kingdom as a

family and into our European allies. We need to be bringing the walls

down, not putting artificial barriers up. We live in the 21st

century, in a global society, where the world is becoming smaller.

Therefore putting artificial barriers up really doesn't, in terms

of supporting humanity, we need to be outward looking. Unless you are

to have a world government, and you would probably advocate one, you

have to have a government somewhere. And some would say the Scottish

Government should gain full powers they were described as normal

situation. The United Kingdom needs a federal structure, which we are

working towards. The commission is already out there. As you had in the

speech today, for a federal United Kingdom, where we can make all the

parties in the United Kingdom mark fairly represented. How would you do

it? That's to be decided by England. Come on, you put forward federalism,

you have to have a vague idea of what it is. We do. We have

parliament in Scotland, we helped to set that up and we helped the

Parliament in Wales. We have an assembly Northern Ireland. We need

our English counterparts to play their part and define how they would

like. Scottish parliament was defined by the Scottish people and

Scottish in Scotland. We need our England English colleagues to do the

same. I put to other representatives earlier on the programme here, you

want a second referendum on the terms of Brexit. I understand the

argument is different from the principle, but it does sound a bit

like having another go because you didn't like the out come the first

time round. It sounds like trying to overturn the verdict from June 23.

Here we have to give credit to the SNP because they gave us a White

Paper before the independence referendum. A bit different. Yes, we

didn't have that for the EU referendum. People didn't

essentially know what they were voting for. You were voting in or

out of the European Union and they voted out. You're trying to reverse

that, isn't that anti-democratic? We're not trying to reverse it at

all, we're trying to find out what exactly it is people mean by that.

In and out, that's so black and white. The issue is so much more

complicated. Parliamentarians standing where you are now said it

could be that if you vote against the terms, the alternative is we

stay in the European Union. In other words you would be reversing June 23

if people change their mind. I think the point is it's not as that would

be asked reversing it, the people would be reversing it. What is

really frustrating when Tory MPs go on about the will of the people, as

if those who wanted to remain aren't people as well. This is about

saying, OK... But you hold a referendum, an election, some person

gets more votes than the other one, the person that gets more votes

wins. Then you can reverse it again in four years. I think the point

about the independence referendum is we didn't know what we were voting

for. There wasn't enough detail. We had two years in Scotland, three

months is not enough. Is in a bit cheeky to be castigating the SNP for

having a second referendum on independence when you want a second

referendum on the European Union? Some might say that is hypocrisy in

the extreme. Not at all. We had some of the detail in the independence

referendum about the kind of Scotland they envisioned that we

rejected it wholeheartedly to say there wasn't an economic argument or

it wasn't favourable for Scotland. With Brexit there was none of that

detail. We're now going to a hypothetical negotiating table with

terms that nobody in the United Kingdom had prior to that. Take the

?250 million put on the side of the busts. Where is that pledge now?

Nonexistent, under the carpet. That is the difference. That's what we

are calling for, to know what the terms of our EU engagement would be

and then the people can make that decision. Let me ask you each in

turn, do you think there will be a second referendum on independence

and if so when? At this point I think it does look likely. I can't

say when, but we will fight to not have that happen, because at this

point... Fight independently or with Labour and the Conservatives? At

this point I would say no, but I can't be sure. If and when? It's

possible, it will be in two years, five years or ten years. That seems

to be what the SNP want to do. But we as a political party are saying

no to an independence referendum and will stand, federalism platform. I

think we are stuck with it, Nicola is determined to drag us back to

that division. I suspect it will happen. She talked about this

common-sense point of autumn 2018. I think it's outrageous she says

common sense when she wants it. Be later than that. The Tories are

saying not before the Brexit terms. I'm against her term of common sense

being another referendum. The point is whenever it happens, we are the

ones leading the fight. We are the clear ones, with a clear position on

the EU and the UK. Thank you all three very much indeed for joining

me here at the conference in Perth. Back to the studio.

Thank you for all your efforts this afternoon at the conference. No

delegates at the conference have backed the decriminalisation of drug

possession for personal use. During the debate yesterday they also

called on the Scottish Government to support safe injection facilities

for heroin users wherever they are needed.

One last -- at long last safe injection sites are being considered

but we have to consider safety measures. They are using street

heroin. Problematic drug users are also the most impoverished group in

society. Safe injection sites don't alleviate this poverty. The users

still need to find that ?100 from somewhere. We don't have to make

them find that money, if we just provided the heroin in the clinic,

the user can stop breaking the law, start thinking about jobs, family

and housing. In all the studies done in many countries now, heroin is

more effective and more cost-effective than methadone are

helping people get their lives back on track. If you can't relate to the

problematic drug user, then maybe you can relate to their family, as I

do. They finally found the right drug for my brother's mental illness

and I got my brother back. There are over 60,000 problem drug users in

Scotland but tens of thousands of families facing the dilemma no

family should face. Do you hold your loved ones close or do you push them

away and live a life, a half life in constant dread of the knock on the

door from the policeman telling you it finally got them.

The quality of drugs finally going into the public is not of a

sufficient safe quantity level that we can allow into clubs. The effect

of somebody convulsing in front of you is damaging to the members of

staff, to all of those who are trying to use the entertainment

venue, to all of those around them. Particularly I draw your attention

to the line, local authorities to make licensing decisions based on

venues' efforts to keep their customers safe, rather than efforts

to assist police in enforcing drug laws.

If that were to say in concert with or alongside, I could support it.

But where it said rather than, I simply cannot support it. We must

work with all the intelligence, all the support we can, to make it

safer, to make people safer, to make the event, live music, a safer place

to be. There was a patient of mine who was

a single mother and came in with bruising all over her face. It

brought home to me the impact of what was happening. She'd been up by

a dealer for not paying for her heroin. Decriminalising possession

is not the same as legalising. The controlled availability of heroin on

the NHS would reduce the power of dealers, which should be vigorously

pursued. We need to treat heroin addiction as an illness and not as a

crime. I worry that the media are more

likely to report on our attitude to drugs in general, and this motion in

particular, rather than what I see as the much more crucial motions

which we are tackling at this conference. Of course I recognise

the drugs problem that we have and the enormous human and financial

burden and cost which they impose upon families, on society and the

country. We do have a policy on drugs, which includes prevention and

treatment centres. They do need more support. That's already a Lib Dem

policy. So I perhaps ask you that we vote against this motion and leave

our current Lib Dem policies as they are at the moment.

We provide support for those who suffer addiction of tobacco and

alcohol but not for harder drugs. There is no autonomy where there is

addiction, at least in a system of supervision there is someone that

knows that you are going to come in every week for that drug. If you

push them out of that system, if you push them to go to the streets and

take any cocktail of drugs, then there is not someone there who is

going to expect you there the next week. So even if you fall out of the

cycle, there is someone that knows you should be there and someone can

be flagged when that doesn't happen. That was a look at the drugs debate

yesterday at the conference. Now, just a final thought from Professor

John Curtis as we head towards the end of our coverage. John, just as

we touched on at the very beginning of the programme, the Lib Dems

facing their next big electoral test, local government election in

May. How might they perform in Scotland?

If you have been listening very closely to the coverage of this

conference, you may have heard a lot about Colorado. That's not a

reference to the seminal battle in the history of this nation but a

by-election that took place a few weeks ago which the Lib Dems won and

they took a seat from the SNP. They want to convince us this is enough

evidence of a significant rise of their support in Scotland. I'm

afraid the figures don't quite back that claim. Lib Dem vote with 70% of

the first preference vote, up three points from five points previously

thought why did they win the Seacrest about we have pressure

control voting in elections in Scotland and lots of conservatives

an independent voters gave them at first preference. More broadly, if

you look at Liberal Democrat performance in local government

by-elections in Scotland since May of last year, on average, the share

of the first preference vote is up by just 2%. Given they only got six

or 7% back in 2015, in 2012, this frankly isn't good enough. It

contrasts sharply with the performance of the party in local

government by-elections south of the border. Since September of last

year, an average where the Liberal Democrats have fought the war that

they've fought back in 2015-16, their vote has been up on average 14

points. It's been very varied. Some places with spectacular Lib Dem

victories, elsewhere they haven't made much progress at all. It is the

semblance south of the border at least, in certain circumstances,

where there is a local issue to exploit, voters have begun to forget

coalition and tuition fees and everything they didn't like about

the coalition and the party is perhaps regaining its role as the

party of protest. The truth is, north of the border neither in the

opinion polls or local government by-elections is there evidence of

that happening. The truth is the Liberal Democrats could discover on

the 5th of May that in so far as recreating their local government

base in Scotland is concerned, they have made much progress at all.

Given that the government base has always been a crucial foundation. If

that is what happens, it could be bad news for the party indeed. Thank

you very much for that and for being with us for the duration of the

programme. The next week for the SNP conference.

That is the end of our live coverage. More on the Lib Dems on,

's Sunday politics Scotland. The UK shows starts at 11 on BBC One

Scotland. Now, from the team at the

conference, and from all of us here in the studio, thank you very much

for being with us. Do enjoy the rest of the afternoon. Bye-bye for now.