01/05/2012 Stormont Today


01/05/2012

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Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. The worst experience of my

:00:23.:00:26.

political life, says the Health Minister as he responds to a motion

:00:26.:00:36.
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on the pseudomonas outbreak which killed four babies. Telling people

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bump their babies had died and perhaps that was a voidable was one

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of the hardest things I had to do. Also on the programme, with prison

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issues high on the political agenda, my guest is Olwen Lyner from NIACRO.

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And as he attempts to jump start the economy the Finance Minister

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gives it his all. 1, 2, 3! But we start tonight with that

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debate on pseudomonas. A Sinn Fein motion called for the creation of a

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regional neonatal intensive care unit to be speeded up. A sombre

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house heard criticism of some of those involved, but also praise for

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the minister. One we talk about the new women and

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children's hospital, we talk about maternity services in Belfast and

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neonatal services across the region. It was in the early 1990s that it

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became clear that radical change was needed for maternity services,

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not only at the Belfast City back at the Royal. Everyone knew that

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they were not equipped and the services were split between two

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hospitals. In June at the 2003, it was announced that the new deja nor

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hospital for women and children will be sited at the Royal. In 2005,

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it was announced that funding for the new building, which would lead

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to one of the best maternity facilities in the world was

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available. So there are a number of questions that go back to that time.

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What happened to that funding and where is the state-of-the-art

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facility? And as members would recall, there was a pseudomonas

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outbreak, or an incident in Londonderry. That led to the issue

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of an internal memo on 22nd December when the chief medical

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officer at made an announcement. That has been made available to us

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and I have read it many times. In my naivety, that document did not

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indicate the gravity of the situation that had developed.

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Fundamentally, but documents and -- the document did not mention that a

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child had died. It should have been in that memo. And although it has

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been refuted by the Department, it is inevitable that that memo may

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have sat in an in-tray for action after Christmas and that would have

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been entirely understandable, but not justified. There is no evidence

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that following that alert that there was much action taken.

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have to get the systems in place. It is a dreadfully painful lesson

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to have to learn for the whole surface and the families, but we

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have to put in place a system where we can identify pseudomonas early.

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-- health service. We look and expertise from around the world but

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will enable us to respond to this quickly. The motion refers to the

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recent pseudomonas outbreak. The death of those babies is

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devastating. Also, families who have had babies in neonatal units

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across Belfast will be concerned. I know that many people felt a lot of

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pain and for me personally, it has be the worst experience of my

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political life having to deal with this, and having to deal directly

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with the families involved. Telling people that their babies died and

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perhaps that was a voidable was one of the hardest things I have heard

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there had to do and I trust I will never have to do it again -- I have

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had to do. We need to have answers as quickly as possible. Mr Alastair

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is right in that sometimes inquiries can be put up as

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blockages? -- blockages. How long will they last?

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How safe are prison officers from attack in their place of work?

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lot safer than they used to be, according to the Justice Minister.

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He was was asked about a recent assault at Maghaberry. We'll hear

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that in a moment, but first here's the Health Minister again,

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answering a question on the treatment of eating disorders.

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cost is significant when families have to go to go different

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jurisdictions. It's not just the cost of the facility, but the

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charge on the health service. Family members need to be close to

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the location for visits. The cost is extensive and since 2005, �2

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million had been invested in the eating disorder services. Since

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2010, in patients eating disorders treatment had been provided. There

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are specially trained psychiatric staff. This provides a seamless

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service. Following on from the previous supplementaries, what is

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the situation in terms of the number of referrals in terms of

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eating disorders? Given the size of the population in Northern Ireland,

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it would be difficult to sustain a specialist unit. And the current

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economic climate, it is not money we will tie up directly with the

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development of such a unit, but the private sector have expressed

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interest and had been in discussions with the health service

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as to how many clients they would provide. Individual patients might

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benefit from care outside of Northern Ireland, but indications

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are that over the last few years, there has been a reduction in

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contractual referrals and that trend is expected to continue as we

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develop our own local expertise. The future of the causeway hospital

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in collaring has been causing concern for MLAs. Well Coleraine

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continue to have an accident and emergency provision? In terms of

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the causeway hospital, population plans are being looked at through

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the trust and the Commission bodies and what is important is that what

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is thought to myself is a sustainable model for the future.

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The easiest thing for me to do as the minister would be to indicate

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that I would not be altering or changing everything in the causeway

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hospital. Only for six months, one year, two years down the line for

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the whale colleges to withdraw their services, I would rather make

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a decision that will allow for a sustainable model for a hospital.

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It will include an emergency department within that. I am not

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sure whether he or I should be more concerned, but I find myself on the

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same pages as the MP for North Antrim Ian Paisley. He says that

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the hospital will close. If one of his own MPs finds no reassurance,

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why should anyone think otherwise? Well, I note the member quoting

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from a certain publication and it does not always give things right,

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or of course. As the Member knows, the aforementioned MP the

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participate. In highlighting the problem that the European Working

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Title States, by not allowing doctors to come into Northern

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Ireland who would have previously been allowed in to support services,

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I appreciate the fact that the Member of Parliament is putting up

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a vigorous campaign on a regular basis. In fact, he tortures me

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about it. Justice next, and the minister was questioned about

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prison officer safety at Maghaberry. The safety of prison officers is a

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priority. Him enough three years be recorded assault has Haft.

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Nonetheless, there is no room for complacency. Recently, staff were

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able to respond to an manage incident safely and swiftly and no

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injuries were sustained. Although assaults on prison staff, nurses

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and teachers cannot be tolerated. Tensions are often a fact of life

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in a prison setting. On many occasions, staff can use their

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training to bring situations to a successful resolution. Whilst 30

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other prisoners were in the facility on certain incidents, they

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did not join in and some of them actually aided the prison officers.

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What assessment is carried out when it comes to the number of staff

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ratio to the number of prisoners? They are the 30 prisoners did not

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get involved, but if they did, it could have been serious. Given the

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Governor of Maghaberry is a minister, can he give assurance

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that senior management at Maghaberry can ensure the safety of

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the staff but were they? We do have ratios of officers to start on the

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landings which are large be comparable with, and in many cases,

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higher than more stop poor prisoner than our neighbouring prisons. The

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fact that the last three years has seen, despite the increase in a

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number of prisoners, the number of incidents like this going down is

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an indication of good work being done by prison staff and management

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in dynamic security to ensure these incidents do not happen with any

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regularity. We heard there about prisoner

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numbers going up and with me now is Olwen Lyner of the prisoner welfare

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group NIACRO. We've heard repeated calls for a

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re-evaluation of business rates, but the Finance Minister has again

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I think in terms of looking at rehabilitation, we must look not

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just at the Justice Department but a number of departments that should

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be helping people when they are coming out of prison. The majority

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of people will be coming out and looking for housing in the public

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sector. Public sector support. That will affect the housing executive.

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Many will have a form of benefits and we meet the Social Security

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Agency. They need to be brought to realisation of what life will be

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like back in society and the issues they will face. And how they will

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integrate into society again in a way that it means the behaviours

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that brought them to that place our behaviour is they can work to

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reduce. Prism is an important opportunity for people to consider

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life choices. -- prison. Some of the debate in recent times has been

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a debate between hang a heady and hard a goody. Severe punishments

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compared to a liberal view. purpose of prison is to bring

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people that have been found to be guilty of some offence to serve a

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period in prison. The period of being outside society is a

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punishment in itself. After we have taken away their liberty and they

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are there for six months, one year or whatever, we must engage with

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people to look at what is required when they come back into society

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began. I am interested in the term a liberal. It is not easy for

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people to face up to their behaviour and make these changes.

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What matters is that people come out and that they did not commit

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offences again and we do not have people victimised and have more

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crime. That is not so much liberal as sensible and a good use of

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public money. We are trying to We've heard repeated calls for a

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re-evaluation of business rates but the Finance Minister has again said

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that won't happen until 2015. I asked Sammy Wilson why that's the

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case. I have heard this said, that because the value has gone down,

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and therefore be rates should go down. But of course when the Dow

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you was going up four and five times in the middle of the boom, it

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went up four or five times because that is not the way that it works.

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We set a certain amount of money in which to raise it from taxation. If

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it goes down, for example, by 50 %, that does not mean the rate will go

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down by 50 %. We still want to get the same amount of money from

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business rates but it might mean that it would double and equally

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the value of properties go up and the amount you pay per pound would

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half. If people think this will be a panacea for getting rates down,

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it might change relatively for some people and some areas getting an

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increase and other areas getting a decrease but it is not going to

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solve all of the problems. What about changing the system

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altogether with a local sales tax? That would not necessarily be all

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that fair. Because you might find that some stores cover a big area

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and meet demands on public services, but the value of sales is quite low

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and vice versa. And so with every kind of system, we will always have

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an upside and downside. A sales tax for example, it will only have, it

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can end the be based on declared sales. What about fly-by-night

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stalls? Before accounts are published, they are bankrupt and

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whatever. That could be a recipe for people that wants to avoid

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paying any tax at all. These are the kind of considerations we have

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decided and unless the Assembly asks for a total change in how we

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did local taxation, we have done a valuation of property and we will

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have a where shinned down and that will be done in a way that will be

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robust and in place by 2015. Rather than the gaps that we have, we want

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to do a five year valuation and an evaluation of property on a regular

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basis. But we did not want the turbulence in the market. I think

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that is the right decision because we did the way the recession went

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and property values went all over the place, we could not have a

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proper valuation. Why should government revenues be protected?

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Because they are used for the very services on which businesses depend.

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Every week, I have got organisations coming and saying

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that we would like to spend more money in a revamping town centres

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and on infrastructure and protecting businesses, the police

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service and so on. People pay for a service. That is why we collect the

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Revenue. And if we stop the service is because we did not collect the

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Revenue, people could equally say that is having an impact on

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Students in Northern Ireland who want to go to university in

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Scotland are being told they can qualify for free tuition, as long

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as they have an Irish passport. The Ulster Unionist Employment &

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Learning spokesperson, Basil McCrea, has called for fairness. He joins

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me now. What do you mean by that? It is not fair that you can have

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one set of people in Northern Ireland that can go to university

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for free and another person 50 ft away that cannot. That is not fair

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and it is not equality. everybody can surely apply for an

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Irish passport? That is about different value choices people make.

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It does seem strange that legislation says not just Irish

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passport but Belgian, French or any European Union passport would get a

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free education in Scotland. The only people that cannot get it for

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free in Scotland are people in Northern Ireland, England or Wales

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and that is discriminatory. people can get eat here within

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reason if they apply for the Irish passport and gave for a course

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where there is not a cap. Discrimination is not right, ever,

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under any circumstances. And if you talk about discriminating against

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English people in Northern Ireland or Irish people in Scotland, the

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whole of Northern Ireland is based on equity and fairness. What is

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very strange for me in this debate is that people that shout loudest

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about equality are strangely quiet about this. If we want a civilised

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society it should be equal for everybody and if it is free for one

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person you should be for others. He should charge the same fees for

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everybody. But surely the equation is that the students are faced with

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a question, even if they are Irish passport holders, they are not sure

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if they will get their choice because of the competition. It they

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say that they will pay the fees, that is very unfair to put them in

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that position. I did not have any problem with people taking an Irish

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passport and saying that entitles into that is presumably some form

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of Merit and suitability. That seems fair and equitable. But what

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seems unfair is that an equally qualified person going for exactly

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the same course and the same timescale and place will be charged

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money. We do not have any way around that. That is totally unfair

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and discriminatory. The DUP and Sinn Fein should be speaking up for

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this because they speak up on an awful lot of similar issues.

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are we not doing the same thing, we are not offering it for free but

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they will have to pay a higher rate than the students here? The idea of

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discrimination has broken down because of the fee structure that

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is operating. If you offer to one it should be offered to another. I

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did not have any problem with a regulatory regime that says that we

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think that if we charge more fees we can offer a better course. Or it

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people say that we do not want to charge fees because that can

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discourage participation. That is valid but what is not is charging

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one set of fees to one set of people and another or not charging

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another set of people. That is blatant and absolute, no getting

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away from it, this is discriminatory. It is not equality

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and it shows the paucity of arguments from other parties like

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the DUP and Sinn Fein and its his country means anything it is about

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being fair. We must realise the trauma in society and we have to

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fix that. Looking at Justice, you have just left de Justice Committee

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but what do you think the committee and the Assembly must do to make

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things better for your organisation in terms of rehabilitation? I think

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the projects generally, I think we have got an issue about the justice

:23:39.:23:44.

committee and continued scrutiny. We need to be moving forward in a

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positive direction and the committee provides that scrutiny

:23:47.:23:54.

and they will continue to do that. But we need the Executive, anyone

:23:54.:23:59.

minister on their home must have the support of other parties, other

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departments, other ministers to make the Executive work at them. We

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have to work together -- make the Executive happen. That is something

:24:11.:24:19.

We talked last week and last night about the lack of business here at

:24:19.:24:22.

the Assembly. Well, there was a development today as Gareth Gordon

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told me earlier. We have not had much action in the chamber for

:24:27.:24:33.

weeks. We had a situation which is indicative of the fact that we do

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not have enough for MLAs to be discussing but the business

:24:37.:24:42.

committee have communicated concerns to the DUP Minister and

:24:42.:24:46.

will go back to the Executive to tell us what has been set. I have

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been told by that committee that things are looking better and we

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have got a much healthier order paper for this month and more

:24:56.:25:02.

executive business. But at least one MLA said more can be done.

:25:02.:25:07.

are working on this, that and the other but I would rather they came

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clean and told us that and we knew what to expect. By not coming

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forward, there appears to be a suspicion that maybe they do not

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have something. I would not like to think that but if that is the case

:25:20.:25:27.

we had better have a review of what they are doing. But we have got

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problems for Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness as well. It is

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not just today but it has been dominated today here by health

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matters and that has been causing concern in the officer of the first

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and Deputy First Minister. They have got a trade negotiation to the

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United Arab Emirates and India and they are feeling decidedly unwell

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and in the past few months it has been bad and I think that we need

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to look at that. We have been looking at people being sent to

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prison in this way and it does not happen in the UK any more. Does

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that deeds to be reviewed? It is really disproportionate. At the

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time when the offence is committed and the individual is in court, the

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judge determines if that is an offence at once a prison. A much

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lesser outcome -- that is warranting prism. That is like

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:26:42.:26:44.

community service and a fine. -- prism. -- jail. People can choose

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:26:54.:26:55.

to go to jail instead of paying.... Some people end up defaulting and

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they have owed less than �500. Some of them have them for motoring

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offences. In the big picture of who should be going to jail, one a

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fence that warrants it, I did not condemn for one second what has

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happened but I do not think that is what the majority thinks that prism

:27:18.:27:28.
:27:28.:27:30.

Now you may have heard of a dead cat bounce - that's when there's a

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temporary recovery on the stock market. We didn't have that today.

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What we did have was a finance minister bounce. He wasn't trying

:27:35.:27:39.

to jump start the economy, but launch a family fun day which will

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take place at Stormont next month. And Sammy Wilson wasn't shy when it

:27:42.:27:52.
:27:52.:28:19.

1, 2, 3, go! That is better. You see the way I do that? Better milk.

:28:19.:28:29.
:28:29.:28:29.

Not very good? What a minister. That is good. And that is on 4th

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