04/02/2014 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up in the next 30 minutes:

The Justice Minister faces tough questions from his committee over

his change to the Chief Constable job criteria.

If you don't get your way, is this a resignation matter for you?

I think you are straying way beyond this committee's remit.

We get a new planning policy, but the minister holds firm on fracking.

My position is reaffirmed there should be a presumption against the

exploitation of unconventional hydrocarbon extraction until the

department is satisfied that there is sufficient and robust evidence.

I'm joined in the studio by Dr Orna Young.

The Justice Committee has agreed to write to the Executive demanding no

change to the criteria for selecting a new Chief Constable. The decision

follows a meeting this afternoon between the committee and the

Justice Minister, David Ford, who caused controversy when he announced

his intention to set new minimum criteria for the post. Mr Ford

clashed with committee members this afternoon over the issue and refused

to be drawn on whether he believes the Executive has the power to

over-rule him. I believe my decision is the right one. That I have acted

within and in accordance with the powers given to me and I have

consulted more deeply and more widely than I was required to. That

my decision in no way undermines the role of the board, indeed, it

enhances it. If concluded in the time scale that I intend it to, it

should not cause any disruption to the process that the policing board

will have to follow in recruiting a successor to the current Chief

Constable. You do accept, it is however now,

called, well FM and DFM have called an issue into the Executive and I

will report back to the Executive. Just to be clear, you are accepting

that if a majority of members on that Executive decide to retain the

status quo, that is a binding decision of the Executive and you

can't... With the greatest respect to you, my relationships with the

Executive are discussion with me and the Executive and not with me and

this committee. It is a purely legal question. Can you as Justice

Minister decide to take a different decision contrary to what the

Executive may decide when it meets to deal with this particular issue?

And I repeat, I will be discussing that issue with the Executive.

Surely minister, you are in a position or your officials have

advised you that the legislation empowers the Executive to call in

anything deemed significant. That makes it an Executive decision as

opposed to a ministerial decision of that particular department?

Do you accept that that is legally the position that the Executive has

taken in respect of this particular issue? I will discuss that issue

with the Executive. A very interesting response to that. Either

you accept the Executive has got the legal authority to have called this

issue in which has deemed it an Executive decision as opposed to a

Minister for Justice decision or you don't. It is a simple yes or no. Is

the Executive acting within its legal remit to have called this

decision making it an Executive decision. Yes or no? I will be

discussing that issue with the Executive.

OK, minister. Based on what you are saying and clearly this is a

particularly strong issue for you in terms of your relationships with the

Executive. If you don't get your way, is this a resignation matter

for you? I think chair, you are now straying way beyond this committee's

remit with respect, I have come here, I have answered questions for

necessarily need to answer, minister. But when you keep asking

five times, it suggests you don't accept that.

The Justice Minister, David Ford. Joining me is commentator, Orna

Young. I suppose it was no surprise there would be differing views

around the committee table this afternoon? No, absolutely not, Mark.

Building on previous comments coming from the DUP indeed that David Ford

was a little near owe, it was always going to play out in this manner

with hostile exchanges or robust exchanges today.

Paul Given was very persist apt, he did -- persistent. He did keep

asking the question over and over again and he glared back? Yes. There

was a line of questioning, it may have been persistent, Paul Given's

questioning, but indeed, it led to an end which was to ask him was his

position going to be tenable if his plan came to pass? That's a really

interesting point. What do you think happens next? The minister is

consulting he has two weeks to do that. He brings his deliberations

back to the Executive table. Then other ministers will decide what

happens. If they don't agree with his position and it looks likely at

the moment that they might not, where does that leave David Ford? It

is questionable in terms of David Ford's position indeed. I think it

is not happening in a vacuum. We have seen this with the Haass talks.

People are mindful of the election that we have coming up and this does

seem to build on an issue with Alliance more generally. It will be

interesting to see how much they do, whether it the DUP or Sinn Fein

decide to go after David Ford on this issue. David Ford spoke to me

on Thursday night. He said he can't see why this issue was called in

which Executive colleagues when other issues weren't

which Executive colleagues when saying not that you have got

sympathy with that, but you can see how he reaches that conclusion?

Absolutely. . But we have to bear in mind how concerned Stormont has been

with in general since 1998 with the idea of the depoliticisation of

policing and for this point the DUP and Sinn Fein have a point with

this, but indeed that it is entangled in the idea of the

Alliance and his role on that with the up and coming elections. As far

as the issue is concerned, whether or not the minister had the right to

change this particular element of the job description. Do you think

people outside the Stormont bubble are persuaded of the importance of

the matter? No, but I think with the reaction of the DUP and Sinn Fein

that they maybe. I don't think on the ground it bears any difference

on how policing is played out really on a day-to-day basis if you look at

the situations in terms of the cost of policing over months and years.

That's mainly what is concerning people, not really who is heading it

up at this point. Interesting stuff. We will talk to

you later. Orna, for now, thank you.

Planning decisions on fracking should remain a matter for the

Department of the Environment following the devolution of powers

to the new local councils. As he brought his Strategic Planning

Policy statement to the House, the Environment Minister said hydraulic

fracturing is a matter of regional significance. Mark H Durkan said the

statement would facilitate the transfer of planning powers and

create a system that is "fast, fair and fit for purpose". This strategic

planning policy statement will ensure we have a shorter, simpler,

that provides clarity and certainty tor all users of the reformed

planning system. It consolidates 20 separate pieces of planning policy

to a single statement. Reducing 800 pages of policy to less than 100.

The SPPS supports my vision to create a better environment and a

The SPPS supports my vision to employment and aid economic

recovery. Can I ask the minister to outline what changes and steps he

made to change and improve the planning system thus far?

I thank Mr Eastwood for that broad question and I will give him a broad

and in no way prepared answer! LAUGHTER

Could the minister indicate if by his actions of having to withdraw

the planning Bill, if he had to make any changes to the strategic

planning policy in relation to that? I thank Mr Elliot for his question

and as outlined in my previous answer. A lot of the changes

proposed in the Planning Bill as intended can and will be implemented

though not through legislation. I think what people will want to know

is, if his draft statement today proceeds and becomes operative, will

large scale planning applications that have the potential to deliver

thousands of jobs in Northern Ireland, for example, like one

outside Lisburn and one near Londonderry. Will they be able to be

delivered taking account of any objections there are in good time so

that people can get the economy regenerated and people in those

areas can benefit as a result of this statement? I am not aware of an

application like that that currently exists outside Lisburn. I don't want

to get called into particular applications, but I am not sure of

such an application is live outside Lisburn that would meet that

description. However, I do assure the member that all steps will be

taken to ensure quick and proper decisions on all applications. Can

the minister tell us what about the vexed issue of fracking? Would

the minister tell us what about the considered by a local authority

the minister tell us what about the by a central planning director rat

and where are we with both? That's a boring subject.

LAUGHTER I thank the member for the question.

Given the controversy surrounding the issue of fracking I would

expect, if not insist, that it is a matter of regional significance and

therefore, would be treated as an Article 31 application and

therefore, the decision on that would still be made centrally.

Within this document, the draft SPPS, my position is reaffirm there

should be a presumption against the exploitation of unconventional

hydrocarbon extraction until the department is satisfied that there

is sufficient and robust evidence and all environmental impacts.

Mark H Durkan. The Education Minister John O'Dowd

has paid tribute to pupils at the Boys' Model School in Belfast who

spoke up for their teacher, a Sinn Fein councillor who's been receiving

threats. During Question Time, he said the boys had demonstrated

courage and vision through their comments on social media sites.

Ulster Scots funding and the use of schools outside the academic day

also came up for discussion. No hesitation in promoting the greater

community use of school buildings. Only recently I launched a guidance

document along with the Minister who was also launching a document in

relation to sports clubs. The extended schools programme is an

excellent way of doing that, integrated schools into the

community and drawing parents and others into schools to encourage

them to use the facilities and encourage them to become more

involved in their children's education. The Minister will be

aware in education. The Minister will be

he put into the education system and the sectors across Northern

Ireland? Indeed, can I ask the Minister, in terms of the ongoing

disparity between Irish and Ulster Scots, what more can he make

available to help address that issue? My department funds on the

basis of need. The member will be aware that we have a thriving Irish

medium sector. We have over 4000 children being taught through the

medium of Irish and it continues to grow. We have over 20 specific units

or schools. I do not have any in relation to Ulster Scots. I do make

funding available for the promotion of Ulster Scots material. I asked

the Ulster Scots agency to come back with further details of support and

I await that response. I am happy to engage with anyone promoting Ulster

Scots to see that we work closely together to promote Ulster Scots

language and culture. Does he agree there are objections to a Sinn Fein

councillor working in a state school? Ministers have put

substantial investment into state schools including Boys' Model School

which have improved the quality of life and made the prospects much

better for many Protestant children. It is worth remembering the

objections came from outside of the school. Came from outside the pupils

and the teaching staff. Those who made the Texans clearly need to be

educated in the broader sense of the word -- made the objections. I stand

by my support. I know my predecessors can stand by their

record in terms of support for education within what

record in terms of support for funding formula it will be shown

that where there is need we will support it. We will not judge it on

the basis of creed. The Education Minister John O'Dowd.

Stormont's MLAs stepped into deep water today as they discussed a new

piece of legislation to govern our reservoirs. The bill will regulate

the 151 reservoirs across Northern Ireland. It was brought to the

Assembly by the Agriculture Minister. The purpose of the bill is

to introduce a legal framework for regulating reservoir safety to

reduce the risk of flooding as a result of dam failure in the North

of Ireland. This legislation will provide assurance that people, the

environment and economic liberty are better protected from the potential

risks of flooding from reservoirs. It will regulate reservoirs which

are capable of holding 10,000 cubic metres or more of water. And which

are created wholly or partially by artificial means. They will be known

as controlled reservoirs. It is the volume of four Olympic sized

swimming pools. The breach of a reservoir is recognised as a

possible source of flooding that has the potential to cause catastrophic

damage to those living and working in the inundation area. Hence the

need for legislation to prevent it in Northern Ireland. The committee

has been told the proposals for the bill are designs to create a legal

and manage risk from flooding from reservoirs. Considering there is no

legislation regarding reservoirs prior to this in Northern Ireland,

the reservoirs bill is important. There are many reasons and it is

timely that this is debated in the agricultural committee and in the

assembly. As stated earlier, the EU requires such legislation. England

and Wales have legislation since 1930. Scotland has legislation since

2011. 1930. Scotland has legislation since

important to insure a joined up approach. -- ensure. As we look at

the bill in more detail, we must ensure it sets out clearly how

abandoned reservoirs will be managed and also consider what issues may

arise once this legislation is in place should Northern Ireland water

for instance start selling disused reservoirs as their duty of care

were then passed to new owners as a result of legislative safeguards.

Nowhere in these regulations is there any requirement for assessment

relating to risk of flooding from reservoirs. It just is not there.

Therefore, I was amazed when I started to read the explanatory

document that comes with this bill. It too peddles this mess. The member

is referring... Let us not do anything because... Let us wait and

see if something bad happens. This is a preventative approach. The EU

directive is relevant but it is about taking a protective approach

based on risk, not being disproportionate, but very much

based on risk. That is what we are trying to do.

Michelle O'Neill and the second stage of that bill was passed. The

Culture, Arts and Leisure Minister Caral Ni Chuilin also faced

questions today and she was tested on a variety of topics. Ulster

Scots, boxing and the Giro D'Italia were all on the agenda. But first up

was Irish language funding. I'm sure the Minister is aware that there is

a high degree of dissatisfaction among some of the language groups

here in the North. They are not very hopeful about the new process. Can I

ask the Minister what she can do to ensure that these

ask the Minister what she can do to would be included in the funding

net? I thank the member for this question. It gives me an opportunity

to repeat again that there is still an opportunity for these four groups

in the three of which are eager, I understand, to try and fit into new

arrangements, and one decided for whatever reason not to apply. I am

willing to make sure that for those who are eager and keen to protect

the values of they work -- of their work, and enter into the varnish it

with the other groups, the change manager needs provided needs to be

integral and not transition. Have you any intention to review the

current models or funding structure for Ulster Scots bodies? Do you

recognise Ulster Scots as an official language? Well, I am

surprised the member asked that question given out when city was on

the committee and should have had a working knowledge that Ulster Scots

is protected in legislation. Don't be silly. In relation to reviews, we

will be reviewing at some stage the working arrangements between Ulster

Scots agency and the ministerial group to make sure that they work

they are doing is still providing value to the community and value for

money in terms of the investment we have made and taking on board the

ideas and taking on board the projects and themes emerging through

their work. I think it would be best served to give them a bit more

support rather than making cheap and silly remarks. In particular support

for the establishment of a Northern Ireland Association of amateur

boxers, would be Minister care to join in giving her support for such

an enabling organisation in order to an franchise and open up

opportunities for all young boxers in Northern Ireland?

opportunities for all young boxers gossip. The member will also be

aware of an independent report into boxing which did not recommend a

separate authority for boxing for the North. What he needs to do, and

he keeps bringing this up at every question Time in order to be given

the same answer... He needs to stop messing about with politics and

sport. It is unbecoming of any elected member. What role does her

department play in the planning for the Giro D'Italia? Perish the

thought of everybody in North Antrim wearing pink shirts. Especially pink

lycra. But we will not go there. Caral Ni Chuilin who seems to have a

problem with men wearing pink. Now, it's potentially the most

wide-reaching piece of legislation created by the Assembly. Today, the

Public Service Pensions Bill was passed. It will alter the pension

plans offered to more than 26,000 public servants employed in Northern

Ireland. The Finance Minister Simon Hamilton presented the bill at its

final consideration stage. This bill has 38 clauses and nine schedules

and is a complex piece of legislation. After having been

quoted extensively, I thought I might at least quote him at final

stage and perhaps a more favourable quote than the ones he hand-picked

for consideration. But I do agree with his comments at further

consideration stage last month and I quote, it is arguably the most

significant piece of legislation to come before the chamber thus far.

Returning to the bill itself, I would remind members that the Public

Service Pensions Bill revised framework enabling legislation for

the reform of public service pensions in Northern Ireland. Had we

taken the route to legislate on this important and sensitive matter, the

committee would not have had the opportunity to do such detailed

committee would not have had the matter across the House, both in

committee and elsewhere, provides another example of the added value

that can be achieved when we as a locally elected and accountable

representative work collectively and constructively to tackle difficult

issues and shape outcomes to meet local needs. It is important to

remember that pension is not some added all extra benefit, it is

simply pay witches and and pay witches deferred -- added or extra

benefit, it is simply paid which is burnt. Especially given the

government is already reneging on its promise of a 25 year guarantee

on pensions. The changes as a result of the bill are not desirable but

unfortunately are required. There has been a strong lobby from public

sector workers against these changes. It is frustrating for all

of us that reform is necessary. The current pension provisions are not

sustainable in their current form. But has been said in earlier debates

about increases in life expectancy at how the cost of pensions has

risen by a third in the past ten years. We need to be realistic and

continue to monitor the proportion of adult life spent in retirement

and this means continuing to assess whether scheme pension ages should

be in line with state pension age. Not completely desirable to make

these changes, but are they going to be necessary to safeguard the

future? Would the Minister or this assembly, while there are other

options out there? Could this assembly, could a minister, could

they have taken a hit to a block grant of ?300 million? Is that

something that we could have achieved? I think that would be

unrealistic to expect. It is imperative these reforms are

permitted on time otherwise a Northern Ireland

permitted on time otherwise a bill is important and necessary. The

main purpose of it is to provide primary enabling framework for

required reforms. It was important we got the primary framework

enabling legislation through and retain dealing with normal scheme

pension age and state tension age. The essence of the reforms of public

service pensions is to make them sustainable by dressing

ever-increasing pensions liability. The public service pension structure

in the UK has not responded flexibly to rising pensions costs and

increases in longevity in the past few decades. Change must happen now

to address these matters. The Finance Minister Simon Hamilton

and the bill was passed by 77 votes to 13.

Orna Young is with me again. That bill has now passed its final stage

so that will have a major bearing on a lot of public sector workers in

Northern Ireland. Absolutely. We have such a top heavy public sector

here that it is effectively a time bomb, considering the ageing

population we have here. The politicians have passed it, but

watching the debate, it was clear they were uncomfortable about having

to implement some of these changes. They see it as a bit of a necessary

evil. Absolutely. They are all in agreement in terms of their

reluctance in relation to it. It is not very popular. Given the fact

they are looking to extend the age in terms of pensions and retirement

and bringing those into line with the UK contacts. Do you think the

issue was resolved for a generation or will it have to be returned to in

the years ahead? Absolutely. Given the nature of the growing

population, as I said, one positive thing that has come out is that we

had legislation passed. Maybe as time goes on, given the fact they

are not feeling comfortable with it, they may have to come back and tweak

it. One final thing. The row over the history teacher who

it. One final thing. The row over have seen it played out over social

media. Outside Stormont itself, we saw the Protestant coalition wading

into the discussion on it, in terms of their support for why there would

not be a Sinn Fein representative working in a Protestant school and

for that reason it is very interesting to watch the debate and

people are countering that and supporting the diversity of teaching

staff. It is interesting to see pupils getting involved as well.

Good to have your new programme. Thank for joining me tonight. Join

me for The View on Thursday night at 10.35pm on BBC One. Until then, bye

bye.