04/03/2014 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme:

The Health Minister plays down any risk from illegal meat entering the

food chain. The main risk arising from this type of operation is

microbiological contamination of product. In the inventor of

contaminated product entering the food chain, aside from removal, the

main way of dealing with bacteria is to cook your meat well. Cafe culture

comes a step closer. The bill provides a regulatory framework to

allow pavement cafes to operate better, enhance our town and city

centres, and have due regard and respect for other street users. And

I'm joined in the studio by the political commentator, Alex Kane.

It was one of those days when you could be forgiven for thinking

nothing much was happening up here on the hill. But, there were two

things that stood out today - an unexpected end to Arlene Foster's

Question Time, and a nearly empty chamber postponed, briefly, a vote

on the final stage of the Financial Provisions Bill. This bill is a

short but important and necessary piece of legislation, the main

purpose of which distilled tidy up routing financial matters about

financial legislation. It has a number of noncontroversial and

missions, and I would like to thank everybody for the work they have

done. On that note I again commended a bill to the house. Order, members.

As it is not quorum in the house, I cannot put the question. So, I will

therefore order the division Bell is to be wrong. -- wrung. This is our

opportunity to shine, and I hope everybody takes that opportunity. We

have reached the end of the list of speakers, so I thank you for your

attendance. Is that the first time that has happened? The house will

take it easy. -- ease. The Principal Deputy Speaker, Mitchel McLaughlin,

bringing proceedings to a temporary halt this afternoon. Joining me now

is the commentator Alex Kane. So, not enough people in the chamber to

vote on a bill and a break of five minutes in Question Time. Is this

the aftermath of an unusually busy timetable last week? Possibly. I

think the problem is also that the Finance Bill, it's a necessary piece

of legislation, but it's terribly dull and people aren't bothering to

come in. Obviously the Chief Whip did not give people an indication to

be there in time for the vote, which is why they had to run when the

division Bell came. But it happens in Westminster and the Scottish

parliament. It's not surprising people don't turn up at those

meetings. Then the surprising situation with Arlene Foster. It is

ten people listed to ask questions, and maybe she was succinct with

answers or one or two of them or not there, but she finished before the

next piece of business was due to start, so there was a gap. Yes, she

galloped through the ten questions and I don't think a couple of people

were there. I don't understand why if anybody else wanted to ask a

question, it is a topical question Time. It's one of those strange

things. You think they would trust the members enough to say, I do have

a question but it was unlucky not to be chosen at the ballot and I could

ask it now. The house saying it can take its ease and do nothing to the

next five minutes, because there's nothing worth talking about in

enterprise or business, or anything? It's very old-fashioned, very

parliamentary, but the precedent had been established and it's up to the

speaker to say there is a five-minute gap, and if everybody

wants to ask a question, asking now. I don't know why he did not do

that. Plenty of other business and we will be talking about that

between now and the end of the programme. There were no Haass talks

this week, as there have been on previous Tuesdays. I think Mike

Nesbitt said in the debate on Friday that he was pulling out UUP. I don't

know whether they had responded to see what would happen, but the

reality is, the last time they were on and we've had this in

conversation before, the process is dead. There's nothing to talk about.

David Lord said they would go ahead without Mike Nesbitt and if you want

to put himself outside of it, he can, but we will continue. They are

continuing with nothing. This process went on with 18 months and

then three months of talk, then the leaders talk and nothing has been

produced. Sinn Fein have said they will not budge. It is dead. I wish

people would accept it. It's the Monty Python thing, it is a dead

process. Get over it and move on. We heard today that events in the

Ukraine should not have an impact on a planned Invest NI trade mission to

Russia in June? They say that now, but we have no idea what will happen

in a few weeks with 20,000 Russian soldiers there. It's not a devolved

matter. The Foreign Office will make a final call. We will see. And speak

to you later in the programme. Alex Kane thanks for now. A police

operation that uncovered a suspected illegal animal slaughter and meat

operation in County Armagh was brought to the Assembly today. In an

Urgent Oral Question, tabled by the UUP's Roy Beggs, the Health Minister

was asked for his assessment of the risk to public health. This is a

matter for the Food Standards Agency and they have advised me that they

are closely monitoring any possible risks to public health as a result

of the operation. Food risk managers -- management procedures will be

implemented by the FSA and if investigations reveal that products

entered the food chain, the main risk arising from this type of

operation is microbiological contamination of product, and in the

event of contaminated product entering the food chain, aside from

removing it, the main way of dealing with bacterial is to cook the meat

well. This means that even if product has entered the food chain,

effective cooking would minimise the risk to public health. I noted the

minister talked about the bacterial influence, and that the solution was

around cooking meat properly. Can the Minister give guarantees,

therefore, to this house today and to the wider public that there is

indeed, and will not be, any risk to public health? We are giving you a

advice on the basis that if you are buying meat, you should be buying it

from butchers that identify clearly that they are part of the insurance

scheme, and the same -- farm assurance scheme, and the same

applies in supermarkets and so forth. So by your meat from an

approved source rather than out of the back of a van. In most

instances, people can have absolute certainty, and absolute surety, that

the meat they are buying has been raised on very high quality

standards, and that the method of killing has been carried out

humanely, and has been carried out in a way that ensures that,

microbiologically, everything has been done correctly, and people can

take those steps. If people are buying meat out of the back of a van

from an unknown source, they are potentially asking for trouble.

Given the urgency of the situation both with public health and the

reputation of the Northern Ireland meat industry, what meetings have

taken place between himself, the Minister of health, and the Minister

for agriculture, because this seems an urgent issue and needs to be held

-- dealt with at the highest ministerial level? I think we should

all calm down a little. This is not a large scale operation, in the

first instance. We should not be blowing this out of proportion. This

is not something which is common practice, and there is just not

evidence that that would be the case. We became aware of an activity

and there was a course of action taken yesterday, and it's now in the

public domain, as it should be. Actions are being taken, and it is

for the Council, potentially that the police, and possibly there would

be legal action -- for the police. I think they are allowed -- I think it

is important they should be allowed to get on with that action. The

Health Minister, Edwin Poots. That urgent question was asked by Roy

Beggs, who joins me now. Were you happy with the Minister's response

today? I think it was a bit laid-back, saying be calm, it's not

a big issue. They might not find a big quantity of illegal meat on the

premises, but let's remember that each of the last three years, almost

3000 cattle have been stolen or gone missing in Northern Ireland. That's

a considerable amount of beef. That will be over 1000 tonnes of meat, if

it was put into the food chain. Perhaps ?3 million have been stolen

from local farmers. The numbers can up, if that's what you're saying.

There was some sensible advice from the Minister, buy meat from a

reliable source and cookie properly will stop you can't -- cook it

properly. You can't argue with that. Yes, it's good advice, but we want

to see a more proactive approach by the range of agencies with an

interest in this, the Food Standards Agency, the police, and how many

proactive actions have they taken to identify who is stealing the cattle?

I suspect they're entering the food chain and taking them down south

using the food plant. It was highlighted that 3000 animals a year

were being stolen or had gone missing in Northern Ireland.

Primarily the Department of agriculture, do you think it should

be, could be, doing more as one of the lead agencies? Often theft is

involved so it is a major police issue. We probably need the National

Crime Agency to be involved, but we don't have it in Northern Ireland.

This is a ?3 million turnover of stolen meat or cattle in Northern

Ireland. This is big money. Criminals are raking it in at the

expense of small farmers. Some consumers might be concerned. The

food standards investigation is taking place. What action will you

call for if it finds that the meat has ended up in the food chain? What

I would like to find out is how many people have been prosecuted for this

type of activity? Particularly, how many businesses have perhaps been

drawn into this food chain, and if so, what is the cost to them? I hope

that the Food Standards Agency have the potential to put them out of

business and to stop them trading if such irresponsible actions can be

found. The Minister 's line was that people needed to calm down a little.

Are you saying there could be reputational damage to the beef

industry if it's not sorted out once and for all? I have no doubt that

Northern Ireland has the highest level of food security perhaps

anywhere in these islands. The level of traceability is huge, right from

farm to the fork. With the tracing through meat plants, veterinary

inspection, checking temperature and storage in the shops. All of that is

fine. But remember when the last major outbreak occurred, not that

far down the road. There is serious organised crime happening and we

need the public to work with all of the agencies to feeding information

of unusual traffic, perhaps what is happening to material that has been

dumped as a result of this activity, and we need information to allow the

police to prosecute. The number of illegal dumps in Northern Ireland

came up during questions to the Environment Minister today. Last

month a Spotlight programmed uncovered one in Campsie near

Londonderry which contained half a million tonnes of waste. Mark H

Durkan was also asked about the Northern Ireland Environment Agency

and its part in the running of Dunluce Castle. Visitor numbers to

the north coast attraction have fallen in recent years. Dunluce

castle is one of Northern Ireland's premier tourist attractions, but the

decline in visitor numbers over the last few years does not reflect its

true historic and economic potential. That is why the Northern

Ireland Environment Agency has already under undertaken substantive

steps towards addressing this issue. It has established an innovation

trial to create a world class visitor experience that does justice

to these ruins and brings economic benefits to the region. The agency a

has been successful in securing over ?300,000 support from the Heritage

Lottery Fund towards an exciting proposal to uncover the lost town of

Dunluce. The remains of this early 17th plantation town lie in the

fields outside the castle gate. I thank the Minister for his answer.

I'm not sure if he believes it or not, because he was struggling

reading that out. Dunluce castle had 88,000 in 2010, and 44,000 in 2013.

A drop of 30,000. Your predecessor and the deputy Minister opened the

new tourist facility worth ?208,000. I hope you are going to spend this

money wisely. The Minister said he would undertake a root and branch

review on the radio. There's undoubtedly been a huge decrease in

visitor numbers over the past numbers to Dunluce. He heard me on

the radio speaking about NIEA, so he will know I don't defend something

if I don't think it is defensible. In this case however I do not

believe that's solely or even largely down to the management. I

don't think that's attributable to the decline in number numbers to

that. I am conducting a review of the agency. I don't think it is the

agency's fault that these numbers are down. However, I think the

agency in partnership with others has a key role to play in ensuring

we bring numbers back up. It is vital that this ?300,000 is spent

wisely and I look forward to input from Mr Swan from all stake holders

as to how they envisage a world class visitor attraction would look

like on that site. Given that the report and even the PSNI

investigation is very much site specific works the Minister agree

that without a further and perhaps more comprehensive inquiry there

will always be unanswered questions, are there other illegal dumps in the

North-West? After operation sycamore, the investigation, the

department launched Operation Tooth-fish - I don't know who thinks

up the names. It is investigating waste crime at 33 sites across the

north and regrettably some of them are in the North-West as well. I

think it is important and I have said this before in the House that

my department and NIEA work closely with other departments and with the

PSNI on this issue. I've met with the Minister for justice on this. It

is vitally important that the severity of sentences reflects the

seriousness of the crime. Here we are talking about serious crime. It

is hardly victimless. The outcome of it is a cost to the rate payer. It

is my ambition and hope that we can make the polluter pay for the

clean-up of this site and every site that we found in the absence have

been able to bring the perpetrators to justice it would be left to the

rate payer and taxpayer to foot the bill. That should be reflected in

the severity of sentences that are there for this type of crime.

The Environment Minister, Mark H Durkan.

The unrest in Ukraine came up during questions to the Enterprise, Trade

and Investment Minister today. Invest NI is due to take a trade

mission to Russia in June. But it was credit unions, and what could be

done to help them help the public that we go to first. Given the

number of voids left by bank closure closures and hikes in interest rates

for lend lenders and non-street lenders, could I ask the Minister to

give a firm commitment that it will be raise raised at the executive in

terms of looking at programmes to en enable credit unions to fill the

void left by the banks? What I will say is obviously in relation to the

capability strategy, we will have that wider discussion around

education and capacity building and I think it is a capacity building

piece he may be referring to in relation to finance. He will know

that in GB the Government came forward, the Department for Work and

Pensions I think it was, came forward with an amount of money to

try to get more people involved in the credit union. But of course it's

the nearly 40% here in Northern Ireland. You can see that reflected

in the number of members that get to their feet that say, "I would like

to declare an interest in such and such credit union." Even in this

House. We don't need the same sort of stimulus to get people involved

in the credit union movement. I do think there's a piece of work around

education and financial capability through the strategy that the credit

union will play a key role. I hope the post office will play a key role

as well. # Could I ask the Minister to give

her own assessment of its relative success or otherwise, and what

future plans might she have to engage in further joint ventures,

which must be of benefit to both parts of this island? It was a

successful mission. Just today some members might have noticed that I

met with the High Commissioner from Singapore, who is based in London.

He looks after the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland for

Singapore. He was particularly pleased that his recently had

delivered the first ever joint mission, and he could go down in

history for his part in it. But I think the success of the

mission was really in and around the fact that the companies that were

taken from Great Britain, from Northern Ireland and from the

Republic of Ireland, all complemented each other in what they

were trying to do. They weren't competing against each other.

Russia seems to be a key theme today in Question Time. But from my

perspective and the department's perspective there've been a number

of looks at Russia to see what the opportunities are and Invest

Northern Ireland are bringing a trade mission, God willing, to

Russia on 3rd June this year. It's a multi-sector mission. We think that

there are good opportunities for us in Russia. In fact, if you look at

the export figures in terms of Russia, they are continuing to grow

at a good rate. In terms of Tourism Ireland,

industry partners are going to participate in Visit Britain's

Destination Britain. Sales missions to Moscow. They are doing that to

try and sell the region, Britain and Ireland together. I do hope that the

way in which we were able to work together, Visit Britain and Tourism

Ireland, that we can work together for the Commonwealth games as well.

And attract visitors from across the world to come and view the spectacle

of those game. Can I say, we will continue to watch and see how our

Government relates to what's going on in Russia, in the Ukraine, but as

far as we are concerned it is business as usual and we are

planning these events in the upcoming months to bring trade

missions and Tourism Ireland to go out as well. Arlene foster.

Now, we're not known for aping the cafe culture of Paris - or its

weather for that matter - but a bill aimed at regulating pavement cafes

did come before the House today. Seen by many in the Chamber as a

potential boost to the local economy, the legislation seeks to

create clear guidelines for businesses that want to put tables

and chairs out, while still keeping the pavements accessible for all.

These do provide more often than not a vibrancy to an area and are

generally regarded as positive development. There are no measures

in place to regulate them. A Bill is required for one key reason. There

is no legislation to regulate the operation or development of pavement

cafes. As a result we are left in the unacceptable position where road

surfaces are operating a toleration policy as long as they hinder the

free flow of pedestrians and vehicles or hinder public safety.

RNIB, guide dogs for the blind and the inclusive mobility and transport

advisory committee, these were around the potential for pavement

cafes to cause restriction of movement for at the end trans -- for

pedestrians. This morning the Minister provided assurance that the

guidance on the regulations which will implement this bill will put

the needs of the pedestrians, including those with disabilities

and other needs at the heart of the licensing regime. This is key to the

success of the regulation. The Minister noted in his response that

the guidance will have to be taken seriously by councils. It is

something that will help our tourism and hospitality trade and I hope

bring our town centres back to life again. Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to

add there was wide consult ace. We listened carefully. I hope that

local counts will take seriously -- local councils will take their

responsibility seriously and that pavement cafe requests are mindful

of the needs of persons with visual disabilities and impairment.

Organisations did come to the committee and raise concerns about

this bill. It is vital that the department now follows on the

assurances that the needs of people with mobility and sight issues

particularly are placed at the heart of the licensing scheme. Amendment

3, a one strike and you are out approach, was never fair on paper,

especially in a new bill. The new clause as amended will still however

give the new councils the authority to chase businesses in camera

diction of the licensing scheme. The bill provides a regulatory framework

which will allow pavement calf face to operate in ways that enhance our

towns and city centres and have due regard and respect for other street

users. This amendment will not affect the current bricks and mortar

premises of bars and cafes. They are already covered by elects. I believe

when a public space is being licenced to a private vendor we have

a duty to ensure that the space is shared and open to all and covered

by the same equality duties. We don't believe this is necessarily

the appropriate place where we try to tack tackle difficult issues like

this. Members will be well that wering are to defend some of these

matters is quite difficult. The member himself referred to sporting

emblems, which he says in themselves are not sectarian and problematic.

Would you defend someone sitting in a cafe with a Rangers scarf? I don't

know. What has been said clearly I think there's a time and a place for

all of these things. I want to make it clear that I am opposing the

amendment. The reasons for this are plain and simple. The bill as

currently drafted will allow a council to take action where it has

a concern that a pavement cafe area may not or is not providing a

welcoming environment. For example, a council may refuse an application

outright, Clause IV. Or if it decides to grant a licence impose

any condition it considers reasonable in order to promote a

welcoming environment. Clause 6. Where a licence is in force, a

council could vary the conditions of a licence for the same purpose.

Clause 16. And more importantly, and I think it

has been touched on by a number of contributors, any licensed pavement

cafe would remain a public area. As such, would be subject to all the

normal laws of the land. The Social Development Minister,

Nelson McCausland, explaining the rationale behind the proposed new

legislation. And Alex Kane is with me again. Do you think we could ever

be on course to rival the cafe culture of Paris? I'm not sure about

that, but it is going to be full of people smoking, but it would be

somewhere nice to sit when the weekly parades and processes pass

by. And tomorrow's Bill Clinton visit? He's arriving to do a

congratulatory thing for John Hulme. I wonder if he will get time to meet

the First and Deputy First Minister. The process itself is in trouble. I

wouldn't be surprised if they find a moment during the day to let them

bump into each other and chat. You think that makes sense given that he

was involve involved before. And Haass. Somebody needs to do

something. Haass will have briefed President Obama. We know that and I

think Obama will have briefed Clinton. I suspect they will talk to

each other. And the politicians are off then to Washington for their

annual St Patrick's Day gathering next week. Which of course is well

ahead of March 17. It is on 14th March, the ides of March, which

seems appropriate for a process that's in trouble for these men to

come and sort it out. Beware. I think they'll get the trip and

pretend all the well and come back on separate planes. It is an odd

thing that they all head to Washington, gets their shamrock,

meet the President and they are back on this island for St Patrick's Day.

St Patrick's Day in Washington isn't St Patrick's Day. I think they

expect them to do anything here on St Patrick's Day. It's a junket.

Nowadays there is no point to it. To be honest President Obama says if

you can't agree, I'm not bring you over here.

Alex, thank you. And that's it from Stormont for another week. Do join

me for The View on Thursday at 10.35pm on BBC One. Until then, from

everyone in the team, bye-bye.