06/12/2011 Stormont Today

Welcome to the programme. One Downing Street denies lobbyists

have influence government policy, could anyone here be pulling the

strings of the MLAs? On the programme, the environment

dominates the day but his son and deep capitalist the event that

brings proceedings to a standstill. - back-row it is an anti-capitalist

movement. Order! Order! And when business got going, more tackling.

There is no licence for fracking in Northern Ireland. No licence has

been issued, no licence has been issued and I do not know how many

more ways I can say this. Fracking is safe as long as nothing goes

wrong. Well, America shows things can go wrong. My guest is

environmental lawyer, Andrew Lyon. We used to parties dividing along

Orange and green lines but it was a green issue of a different picture

that raised temperatures in the chamber today. Andrew Ryan is a

partner with solicitors and specialises in environmental law.

What sort of cases to you cover? do a broad range of work, from

defending environmental Prosecutions, advising clients in

terms of compliance with the lock, across to looking at environmental

implications of planning. It is a broad area. What is the most common

case you deal with? In terms of enforcement work, it is to deal

with waste, and things like that. Fracking was not just a talking

point inside the chamber. Dozens of protesters opposed to the process

travelled to Stormont to hand in a petition of more than 2000

signatures to MLAs. They claim it is dangerous and do not want the

process carried out here. The Alliance and Green parties want

more research into the impact of fracking and they tabled a motion

calling on the economy Minister to withdraw the licences for fracking.

I am bemused by the motion before us. It has been proposed by those

to remind us of the need to identify and it lies alternative

sources of energy. Yet there seemed to be paranoid about any effort

made to find solutions to the energy needs. That is a load of

BEEP! Order! Order! BEEP! Order! Suspend the sitting... This is

suspended. The public are entitled to hear the debate. Any more

interventions and I will ask the public gallery to be cleared. If

you want to participate, listen and ask members. Do not refer to the

public gallery and the gallery should not intervene. The US is

where technology for the mining of fossil fuels is very strong. If

those debts are urging the cautionary note, we should also

pursue this. We are largely in favour of the motion, but we do

recognise that the motion is very prescriptive at the last third,

were it talks about emphasising only the energy sources, renewable

sources. We must exploit the potential of shale gas. I notice

that talk about how shale gas is going to encourage cheaper energy.

I have not heard any guarantee about that. In the meantime, it

could destroy what we have, it could destroy the agricultural

industry and the tourism industry, it could destroy the water quality

that be enjoyed and there are too many things that we know could go

and no guarantees on cheap energy. Let me say, the premise of this

motion is fundamentally flawed. There is no licence for fracking in

Northern Ireland. No licence has been issued, a no hydraulic

fracking licence has been issued and I don't know how many more ways

I can say that. I have listened to members, all of them asking me and

the motion asks me to withdraw the licences for hydraulic fracking.

There are no licences. Indeed, nobody in Northern Ireland has a

licence to extract oil or gas by any method currently. The Minister

said it does not permit for any drilling and colleagues refer to

this as a desktop exercise. Is there not even within this,

permission for exploratory drilling? I have a licence which

was granted. It's available on the internet. Anybody can check this.

It does allow it for some drilling. To suggest drilling as desktop

research is misleading. In year four and five, it allows for

secondary exploration wells. member is wrong in addition to that.

They have to apply to the Department for the licence for

fracking and they also have to apply for planning application and

for the environmental impact assessment. It is outlined in the

licences. There might be further permission is necessary but it is

within their licence. This is a licence which includes fracking,

multiple horizontal laying and processed on a train. People can

check this. There was confusion about whether the exploratory work

the Enterprise Minister referred to would involve any fracking. She

told me it would not. You have the borehole, I came to boring a hole

for water, which farmers will be familiar with. They take samples of

rock. No fracturing can take place. Until planning application has been

met. He does seem unclear whether they do have to come back to you

and ask for further information. Every licensee under stands they

cannot do any invasive drilling without an application. To

ourselves, the Department of Environment and the environmental

impact assessment. It is very clear that anybody who does undertake

this, and these are reputable companies, they know they have to

apply for that. The Assembly has spoken, what difference will that

make? We listen to the Assembly and what it has to say but if I was to

revoke the licence that currently exists and that isn't what the

motion calls on me to do, it calls are made to revoke licences which

allowed fracturing and there are none. The motion was flawed. That

is what I tried to explain today. Unfortunately, some members were

not listening and there are no licences so it is difficult to

revoke licences that matter not there. Or was today's debate a

waste of time? It gives us a chance to listen to members' concerns, the

concerns they have picked up from across the world, a lot of people

don't live in Northern Ireland, they were coming across to express

concerns as to what happened in their jurisdiction. In Northern

Ireland it's a different situation, we have all the protections in

place and I would not have it any other way. This is where I live. I

want to ensure we do this in a responsible way and that we look at

alternative energy sources. It would be wrong not to it but we

only do so when it is environmentally safe. And a low

table today's motion and she is with us. Was it flawed? -- Anna Lo.

Flawed in what way? She said there are no licences for fracking so the

wording of the motion was wrong? is important that we look at this

process fairly carefully. The Minister has issued licences for

exploratory work to investigate and explore the potential for fracking

in Northern Ireland, and it has been banned in the USA and France

and in Germany. And now it is happening in Northern Ireland.

There is a potential in Northern Ireland. And we really have not

looked at the seriously and it is a process that can have and has been

shown to have health issues, to have environmental damaging issues.

And we cannot let this go simply by saying, we will let them look at it.

Without a full impact assessment. Were you satisfied with Arlene

Foster's explanation? We are not. She says the planning service will

have a look at this and will carry it out with the environmental

impact assessment. In Northern Ireland, I do not know about within

the environmental planning framework, if we have the

Competency to look at this and have a rigorous, full and comprehensive

assessment on this. Within the EU directives, the amount of gas being

extracted would be below the threshold for the full impact

assessment to be carried out. What we are asking is for an independent,

rigorous environmental impact assessment. Carried out not by the

deal a but relayed by a university or someone with the expertise to

carry this out. So that we are satisfied that it isn't going to

cause long-term consequences for Northern Ireland. Andrew, this is

your area of expertise. Do you think we need an independent body

to look at this order are the procedures robust enough? In terms

of the legal framework it by be robust. In so far as the framework

is there in terms of the potential impact but whether it is a lack of

knowledge is with the technical expertise in what that impact might

be. And that is possibly were there could be a problem in the future

because the expertise locally and nationally might not be there to

understand what is still an emerging and fairly novel process.

Even the word fracking has come into Our Language very quickly over

the last couple of weeks. It is that something you are looking up

now? Cases in America? It is any days and a lot of concern seems to

be in America about the environmental issues that have been

raised. You have to contrast the American system with the UK and the

ear, were there are more rigorous controls on environmental processes

but what it comes down to is having the knowledge and expertise to

apply that regulatory framework to what is going on and that is where

problems could arise. What happens next? Effectively, nothing can

happen as a result of today's motion? We need to continue to

raise the concerns of the public, particularly in Fermanagh. I want

to follow what on Andrew's point. Northern Ireland, the Environment

Agency is a very small branch within the DoE. It has been known

to have a lack of resources and I have a lot of respect for these

people doing their best within these constraints and to be able to

regulate the processes once it has been installed, but they don't have

the resources to do that. They don't have the technical know-how.

How do we know the process is being regulated? At the moment there are

thousands of cases of water pollution, R Care Quality

Commission, they have not brought many cases out for prosecution

because simply there is a lack of resources within the department.

Thank you very much. You will have to leave it there. The Deputy First

Minister was taking questions today but if you were expecting to hear

something on the Maze development which had been promised, it was to

be a disappointing session. Also up was a Social Development Minister,

who concentrated on Warm Homes. First, a question on the recent

controversy surrounding Belfast's lord mayor. What impact does a

First Minister believe it will have on equality issues given the recent

decision by the Belfast Lord Mayor not to present at Duke of Edinburgh

award to a local young female Obviously this has been a sizable

story in the media. It has generated a lot of heat. I welcome

very much the fact that the Mail has apologised for what was

undoubtedly a mistake. There is a clear commitment that that would

not be repeated. -- the Mayer. People should resist the temptation

to inflame the situation any more than it has been. The important

thing to do is whenever someone makes a mistake is to put your hand

up and apologise. As far as I am concerned, he was big enough in the

first instance to attend the Duke of Edinburgh award presentations,

and in the second instance, he put his hands up and made it clear that

he should apologise and he did apologise. The apology was fulsome.

I think it is important not to make a meal out of it but to move on, to

understand that certain circumstances will be a challenge

for all of us. What we all have to do is continue to stretch out the

hand of friendship to each other. We should not make life difficult

for each other, as I am afraid in this circumstance we saw that

happen. The junior minister was on her feet to answer the next

question on the planned enquiry into historical institutional abuse.

The minister will be aware of the reports produced by the Roman

Catholic Church this week. The ones relevant to Northern Ireland, will

they be included in this enquiry, and when we look at the needs of

the victims and survivors, can that Minister assure us they will be

given the most important privilege preference in all this, and not the

needs of the legal profession? was one of the arrears when we were

talking to the victims they had asked us to ensure this enquiry has

not overlook them. We are aware of the reports, it relates to the

north here. The reports did not deal with abuse, but rather look at

how the Church have already dealt with allegations of abuse. The

general theme we have seen from the reports has been that the church

was more concerned with protecting the image than protecting the

children and who were being abused. This is totally unacceptable, and

those within the Church hierarchy will need to examine their

consciences this -- their conscience with regard to this. The

way in which they obsessively conceal the abuse, the reports

indicated procedures are now in place to ensure it allegations of

abuse are reported to the proper authorities, and we will be

properly monitoring it. We met with a member of the safeguarding board,

and we intend to keep in touch with him. We will establish and ensure

that the chair of the enquiry will be able to make recommendations to

us if they feel there are other steps and issues that they could

take account of. This week's falling temperatures has made fuel

poverty even more topical, although it is rarely far from bit agenda.

The minister got annoyed by this in due full -- got annoyed by this

issue. The minister has highlighted the nature of the problem, when

will he take effective action to deal with those who are in serious

difficulty? I do not know where the member has been for the last mile,

because there has been many announcements about this. -- the

last month. It is not a case of talking about it, but doing things.

We have in place a scheme for Warm Homes, while a replacement, ongoing

improvements, the member can shake his head as much as he once, but

the fact is, when people are doing something and delivering, he should

at least acknowledge that it is happening. Not in your head in the

corner of the room will not do much to address fuel poverty, but the

actions been taken by his department are delivering. --

shaking your head. Will the Minister ensure that a housing a

polity spends all it can on double glazing? -- that those in authority.

Double-glazing is a matter of public interest. It is important

too tense and important to the construction industry. It is

important we put down the message clearly. -- important to homeowners.

I do not anticipate and I will not accept any failure in this regard.

It is imperative that a housing executive makes sure at the �2

million already allocated has been spent and therefore we are able to

come back for the second amount of �2 million to make up the total of

�4 million. This was agreed with the finance minister. If there are

issues here that need to be addressed very quickly, the message

will be going clearly and I am due to meet the housing executive on

Thursday. At the top of that agenda will be ensuring that all �4

million is able to be used, and that it is all spent. Companies Act

they are looking for work in the construction industry and

homeowners are looking for double glazing. -- companies are looking

for work. Staying with our environmental theme, and a new

strategy has been revealed aimed at tackling environmental and heritage

crime. They will launch a crackdown on waste, wildlife and historic

buildings. The minister also revealed he is considering

strengthening the law on metal theft. We need to ensure those who

break the law will be robustly dealt with. That is what we are

doing today. We will at departments working together to ensure

criminals are prosecuted more vigorously. There is responsibility

on the judges and courts to impose more severe penalties on those

gangs responsible for at the most damage. The theft of metal is

becoming an increasing problem, that is recognised in London, where

they are bringing forth new legislation. I have instructed my

own officials to school boat whether we need new legislation. --

to look at whether. We will demonstrate that whatever the

history, we will pursue and prosecute individual criminals and

criminal gangs for damaging the environment. That is the measure of

what the Government should be doing in the future going forward. With

their putting words in the mouth of the minister, he seemed to be

saying Bilal was robust but the courts are not been robust enough.

-- the law was robust. Is that the case? Generally, yes. In terms of

the law itself, there are different environmental crimes and the

different penalties can be quite stringent. There can be large fines

and imprisonment, but those are not vigorously enforced by the courts.

Quite significant environmental offences have ended up with fairly

low penalties. That is changing over time, but there is a sense

that certain types of crimes are not recognised for the serious

nature of them. It also reflects on the enforcement procedures of the

Environment Agency. There has been a perception in the past the that

the Environment Agency is not going after particularly serious

criminals. That is things like waste disposal operations, and

there is a perception that within the legitimate waste at business,

they are being over-regulated. Interesting points. Two MLAs are

back in the chamber looking more clean-shaven. They grew moustache

is aware awareness -- to raise awareness of cancers affecting men.

I caught up with them and ask them why they got involved.

colleagues were involved last year, obviously the females could not

take part, but she inspired the male colleagues to get involved.

There is a need to raise discussion and debate around men's health

issues. We were very grateful to be involved in raising awareness and

funds. How much did you raise? raise around �800. Hopefully we

will get a few more work involved next year. Years was quite over the

top, did it take a lot of work? -- your moustache. It just grew itself

unfortunately. I did not do too much pruning. You had a few

comparisons. I had a few. I was compared to a character from a

sitcom. I was also compared to Charles Bronson. The convict, not

the actor. What about the women in your life, what did they think of

it? My girlfriend was pleased I took it off. Recent events at

Belfast City Hall reached the chamber today as we heard earlier,

with the exchange between Tom Elliott and Martin McGuinness. Our

political editor had more detail. It has been a big controversy but

it reached Stormont with Martin McGuinness making it clear that the

big mistake had been made. At the same time, Sinn Fein is looking for

Unionists to draw a line on this. What is this we're hearing about

two of our committees heading south? They time that wrong if they

want any bargains, because the Irish budget will make everything a

bit more of -- a bit more expensive. The Regional Development Agency are

having a meeting on the enterprise trained on the way down. They are

getting a briefing about the development of rail services. They

hope to end the meeting before their journey has finished. The

environment committee are also going down. They will have a joint

meeting with counterparts, and they will consider a different mode of

transport, they are getting a briefing from Tyre Manufacturers'

about environmentally friendly tyres. They will be burning rubber

metaphorically. Some interesting issues raised tonight about

fracking and environmental crime. Why do you think there has been

less of a punishment handed out by some of the courts? I think it is

because certain environmental crimes are seen as a victimless

crime. It is difficult to put a price on the cost of the impact on

the environment in the short term. What needs to be done? Do we need

an independent environmental protection agency? To a certain

extent, that would assist in so far as it is separate from any

influence from government. In terms of enforcement it is not that

important. What is more important is educating the courts and

magistrates as to the seriousness of these crimes. Educating the