10/02/2016 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to this extra edition of Stormont Today,

where MLAs have spent the day debating a range of amendments

The complex and controversial issue of abortion

in cases of fatal foetal abnormality

was always likely to dominate proceedings -

but there was another story that got people talking in the corridors

here - the fallout from the DUP MLA Jim Wells'

whispered comments about women

at the beginning of a recent Public Accounts Committee meeting.

An Alliance MLA behind one of this evening's

amendments regrets what he sees as the restrictions

placed on some of his fellow Members.

Sadly there are those who will make their decisions today due to the

influence of party whips, rather than through free expression of

their conscience. But MLAs do vote to help the law try

and keep up with modern technology. At the time the legislation was

drafted, nobody envisaged the type of world we would be living in

today, where we all have smartphones capable of taking photographs,

videos and they are capable of being shared online instantly.

And I'm joined by Professor Rick Wilford

for his take on another busy day inside - and outside -

It was over eight hours into today's added sitting before Members

got to the main event - the final set of amendments to be

including those dealing with abortion.

And the sitting ran late into the evening.

The contentious proposal was to allow abortion in situations

of fatal foetal abnormality and the arguments on both sides

have been well rehearsed both inside and outside the chamber.

some of the parties made their positions clear.

If there is another place to do legislation apart from Stormont, I

would like to hear or it is in Northern Ireland. I think the

objective for the DUP's working group is to get us down until after

the election. They have set a deadline of six months. Currently

the looking not in our but the Ulster Unionist Party also, they

have a free vote. Another one that has come across two hours this

morning. We will see where we are in a few hours. Our MLAs will both of

their individual conferences dictate and I do not know how that is

because I do not think it would be appropriate as leader to ask them

and give the belt I was trying to influence them, because I think they

know from my public statements that I would support a change in the law.

I am uncomfortable as a man telling a woman what to do with the body.

The SDLP will be voting against each of those amendments. We are a

pro-life party. These amendments have been stuck on to adjust

something which never was to deal with such an emotive and

controversial issue as abortion. We believe that women should have the

option to decide if they choose to go ahead with the pregnancy in

relation to fatal foetal abnormality. This is about women

making the decision and we believe that they should have the option to

terminate or they have been victims of sexual crime where a woman's life

was in danger. -- or where a woman's life.

And Professor Rick Wilford is with me now.

Rick, it's a subject that's been discussed many times in the past.

And it continues to divide opinion in the chamber.

It is, not only with between the parties but within some of. If you

were going to tally up which we devote me go, I certainly think that

the evidence and foreword by Alliance will be defeated. There

should be at least low 40s in favour of the amendment in relation to

sexual crime and foetal foetal abnormality. There are two things

worth observing, the DUP chose not to voice concern on this occasion,

maybe because they felt they had the numbers on the side of the argument

anyway, namely the proposal to establish this panel, which will

take six months to come up with what the party hopes will be an agreed

position in relation to fatal foetal abnormality. That pitted comfortable

beyond the Assembly election in May. I do not think there is necessarily

going to prevent the issue being erased during the course of the

campaign itself. -- being raised. I wonder whether there might be one or

two chinks, if you like. It seems to be united front in the part of the

DUP imposing these amendments and maybe one or two who are a bit

morbid bowl on the issue... I think it is an issue that is worth

pressing MLAs on and I certainly think the Ulster Unionist Party is

on the right thing in allowing members to vote according to their

own consciences because this is ultimately a key personal matter. It

is permanently a matter for women. And there is something, I think,

better in the modes of some when you see a chamber dominated by men as it

were determining and governing what might happen on the citizens of

front. What do you make of the issue being dealt with in this manner, as

a series of amendments to a much broader justice bill? It is not

unusual. Quite often you get bills which are pejoratively described as

blunderbuss pieces of legislation, in the sense that they have lots of

clothes off and amendments and all the rest. I do not think it is an

attempt to, if you like, bury the issue. One could not because it is

so controversial. But it is a means of trying to, as it were, pushed

through a set of changes in one market until the that it says the

abortion amendments are included within it, I think, is not an

appropriate. Thank you very much indeed.

So let's get a flavour of the debate in the chamber.

Today, Mr Speaker, I am asking members of this Assembly to take a

decision based on this debate on how all the circumstances in history

preceding it have influenced their conscience. Sadly, there are those

who will make their decision due to the influence of party whips rather

than through free expression of their conscience. This issue

requires, demands, careful consideration from the medical

professionals, from practitioners, from families, from Essex and legal

experts, to ensure sufficient and proper clarity and guidance are the

hallmarks of the way forward. George Horner has stated that as it stands,

the law is not compatible with human rights. We, as legislators, should

first and foremost about legislation that is human rights compliant. This

series of amendments are proposing a major change to the law. Changing

the law in this area, if it is to be done, needs to proceed with great

care and widespread engagement with relevant stakeholders. On this

occasion, this simply has not happened. The background is the

Minister held a public on the station particularly around the

issue of foetal foetal abnormality there is considerable public

support. Foetal abnormality. My understanding, and the minister can

directly because I do not speak for him, is that whilst he would have

liked to have brought the FFA issue forward in this building could not

get through, which is why we are here now. Under this is not limited

to any conditions. -- under this amendment, fatal foetal abnormality

is not limited to any conditions. Could it be used to abort foetuses

with down syndrome or spina bifida? It has been made absolutely clear

and everything that has been said in terms of the department

consultation, in terms of the week this amendment is written, that we

are talking about a fatal abnormality. Let us not add further,

to oppose women suffering with such an issue, or indeed, to those who

have children who suffer from down syndrome or some other limiting

issue, which is not fatal. Making that comparison, you are straying

into extraordinarily dangerous territory. Justice Warner had this

to say, doctors know when a foetus has a fatal foetal abnormality. This

is primarily a medical diagnosis, not a legal judgment. Will we not

trust doctors to diagnose a fatal foetal abnormality?

shows no sign of finding common ground,

there was one part of the Justice Bill

the offence of posting revealing videos or pictures online

The DUP's Alastair Ross tabled the amendment

to make the act a criminal offence in Northern Ireland

and he found support from across the chamber.

I want to the committee does not propose amendments to create a new

offence of disclosing private sector photographs and films with the

intent to cause distress, generally known as revenge pornography. We are

looking at the creation of an offence similar to that created in

England and Wales by the criminal Justice and Courts act earlier this

year. Last year, sorry. Such behaviour is already totally

unacceptable and it should be recognised that there are a number

of existing laws in Northern Ireland to prosecute offenders, such as the

offence of harassment, improper use of a communications network, even

blackmail. The other point is the usual period on summary conviction

would be improvement for a term not unseating six months, a fine or

both. It is an issue of foetal which is what we have further

consideration stage four. I am happy to except the will of the committee

that we should proceed to make this amendment today. Bear I am sure

members are aware of the stress, devastating and humiliation caused

to victims when intimate films of autographs at the Usher with an

individual, often had a trusted in possibly, I'd insured worldly. --

widely. Most of -- then who they have trusted implicitly, as sharers

widely on the Internet. Prosecutions could potentially be brought forward

with current legislation but at the time it was drafted, nobody

envisaged the day before we would be living in today, where we love

smartphones capable taking photographs or videos, capable of

being shared online almost instantly. Therefore, I think the

law needs to keep the pace with some of the technological changes and

recognise the world live in today. Perhaps there are pieces of it you

were off, that it showed us that there were gaps in legislation with

the Internet and particularly around a particular issue which people now

call revenge porn. I in the chair is correct when he says, I know the

Minister himself is accepting these amendments and I accept in how we

deal with other aspects of this as we go forward. Because I think it is

important and it is important for this reason, there are many people

who are being subjected to this and they feel vulnerable and isolated.

Another people who are using it for control and coercion and then either

very, very clear signal that will not be tolerated. In terms of the

amendment tabled by the Chair of the Justice committee in relation to

what is described as revenge ash macro revenge porn. I think we have

all been horrified to hear of the bad experiences that people... Some

young, and some of the have had in relation to this and it seems to be

a modern-day evil. So I think I very much welcome the fact that we are at

least drinking the insulation in line with England and Wales. --

bringing legislation in line. And that section of the Justice Bill

was passed on an oral vote. Another part of the bill concerns

the Prison Ombudsman. The bill would place the office

on a statutory footing and allow the Ombudsman to launch

an investigation at his While most of the seventeen

amendments in this section were uncontentious, a Sinn Fein

proposal which would compel people to assist in Ombudsman's

investigations proved less so. In relation to the power to compel

witness amendments 47 and 48 which Mr McConnell has tabled provide a

power to enable the ombudsman to compel a person to assist in any

investigation is it an offence and liable to a fine of exceeding level

three if that is refused. This issue was raised with the committee by the

Human Rights Commission who consider the effectiveness of the numbers

and's investigations will be augmented by calling witnesses

interview. When we discussed the interview with the current

ombudsman, he believed it will be a cosmetic change and affect very few

deaths in custody or complaints investigated. This is the

opportunity to give the ombudsman capability and power to carry out

investigations to deal with compliments and to provide the

service of ensuring there is current accountability mechanisms in and

around our presence. -- our prisons. The idea of compelling someone to

give evidence and I certainly heard of this evidence given and he said

there were no issues and that is good and fine. I wouldn't question

it in anyway and that is a good state of affairs that the local

operating with all investigations, but as the powers perhaps widen and

parts we have seen under the minister's terms the powers of

investigation will widen. None of us can predict the future that is why

it is best that we give provision for the ombudsman if he sees fit or

if she sees fit in the future to have that power. Public person to

assist in any investigation under this, where not absolutely convinced

-- we not absolutely convinced it is a right and proper amendment in

relation to these matters. It's very difficult to conceive of a situation

where you could actually compound a person to assist. You might be able

to compel others and to attend somewhere or to arrive at some

office or whatever, but you can not control that person to assist. It is

almost the same as the fundamental concept of a criminal investigation

and the right to silence. To suggest that in this context you can compel

somebody, when in another context you clearly cannot comment you can

certainly make some but the attendant, but what point? In this

issue has arisen in other regards as well. It has a Briton in the past in

regards to the role of the police ombudsman, it arises in terms of

criminal investigations by the police every day. So I think we

would need to be very sure would how one would do that as well as there

was justification for doing it had at the moment, I do not see

anything, certainly the measure which already exists in the Bill

about penalties for those who would seek to obstruct the investigation

are absolutely right. That is a very different issue from pretending

somehow that you can actually compel somebody to give useful information

if they are unwilling to do so. Sinn Fein is to lodge a complaint

against the DUP MLA Jim Wells following an incident

in the Assembly yesterday. It's alleged he confronted

Sinn Fein's Megan Fearon Another complaint has already been

lodged against Mr Wells for alleged sexist comments he made

during a Public Accounts Committee Mr Wells says his remarks

have been misunderstood. Here's the official Assembly

footage of both incidents. And Rick has joined me

again for a final word. Not for the first time,

Jim Wells finds himself in a corner. I think in all recall the hot water

he got into during the general election campaign last year and now

here is at the centre of another political storm. Another storm of

controversy. As it was politicians worth their salt will recognise that

perception means an enormous amount in politics. And the fact is that

people perceive as remarks as being an instance of casual everyday

sexism. I'm not alleging that is what he intended, but that is the

way in which some people will have perceived it and I suspect it is not

going to do his prospects are getting a nomination for the DUP and

its constituency very much good. It's going to be, as it were, again,

at the centre of another row. This time of the alleged sexism. Brick,

thank you very much indeed. That is it for tonight. Do join me for the

The View Would. Thank you for watching.