16/01/2012 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. We are back for a new year and a

new political terms with MLAs raring to go. We even saw a new

piece of legislation on the order part -- Order Paper. We look

backwards to the event that the enterprise minister believes could

turn the tourist trade around. A one is in a lifetime opportunity

for us. The story of Titanic is known worldwide and it is now time

to place Titanic as the daughter of Belfast. And the Ministry of

Justice. My need people say I am doing reasonable job. I would want

to stay for personal reasons but there are fundamental issues about

how an alliance minister would fit in. If the alliance entitlement

that has given us is taken away. And that future of our healthcare

system. We got the Compton report before Christmas and now MLAs got

their say. Patricia McEwan gives us her view.

Since before Christmas, we have had the chance to digest of the review

into how our health service should be shaped in the future. But Russia,

you said that some of the decisions had already been made. Yes, even

before the review was put together. We suspect the review might be

political cover. I still feel that way. I think the people on the

review team were genuine and they were trying to do a very good job,

but before they ever started they were constrained by the Budget, and

they were constrained by decisions the minister already had taken. It

was spelt out in the terms of reference. So it was not that open,

transparent, let's start from a blank piece of paper tiger review

that was needed. His there anything you do like or think that is a good

idea. I think the problem we are facing is the changes needed to

transform the kind of health care system we have got into one that

centres on public health needs real investment. And that is at the core

of any changes that need to be made. And while there was an attempt to

make small amounts of investment coming out of that review, it is

nowhere near what is needed. You have got to put that money in order

to save on the big money in the future, but you also have got to

really start to think about how decisions are taken, and it is not

just about the Department of Health and the health service. It is about

everybody else as well. Let us hear what the Health Minister had to

sate in the chamber today. We have to learn to live within our

means. We have to spend money more wisely as opposed -- as opposed to

looking for more money constantly and then subsequently wasting it.

As some people seem to recommend. Mark Durkin expressed his concerns,

and I will seek to ensure that all staff are treated with respect and

that they are made aware and a properly consulted. So there will

be changes. Some staff will see some change, others will not. It is

important we talked to them and work with the staff in terms of

changes. Many will not be predicting negative changes, but

there will be changes nonetheless. Are you reassured by what the

minister said? It is there in meaningless. One of the things the

review attempted to do was look at the current structures, how the

health service is run. Those structures are bad, not fit for

purpose. We need to take some serious decisions there. We really

need to start bringing healthcare back to local level. We need to

bring the management of the system back down to local level. One of

the problems we face at the minute is it has been reorganised at such

an impersonal and high-density type of level so that nobody is looking

after all of those bits of the health service at local level that

you and I see when we look for that kind of service. Would you prefer

the model talked about in England at the end of last year that GPs

should have more of a say? Absolutely not. One of the reasons

we have some problems is too many GPs. They don't refer people

probably rather than taking decisions themselves. There is a

great deal of work to be done about that. If we go back to the kind of

work done a long time ago on the Maurice Hayes report, for example.

It talked about health circles. We retained trusts, and wants to

return -- retainer Independent employers in the health service,

you have got people looking after of the empires after -- instead of

a co-operative type of service. We got rid of too many people. There

is no actual manager in charge of hospitals. When those posts got rid

of, things deteriorated. During very so us, there was no shortage

of political activity with talks about the future of the department

of employment and learning. The parties had until 5pm to submit

ideas about the way forward. I caught up with the justice minister.

We spent the afternoon in meetings with the other parties putting

forward some of our ideas how to solve three can shoot -- three

connected issues. These present anomaly of having to reliance

ministers and the issue of reform in departments in total. Has there

been clarification of where the Department of Justice would go if

you didn't we nominate? There is a presumption it would remain as

currently is with the minister elected by cross-community vote,

but it doesn't say who the minister will be. You want to retain the

justice ministry post, personally? When you believe you have been

doing a good job, and a number of people have said to have been doing

a reasonable job, and a number of things have come back which I

initiated, I want to stay for personal reasons. There are

fundamental reasons or issues how or the Alliance minister would fit.

how would history mind the Executive down to eight posts?

how are you? We should try to expedite it. It would have to be a

significant reform, which might take a considerable period of

discussion internally and externally, so it is not something

happening in the next few months, but it is an issue which we need to

address, to streamline the Executive. Would you prefer it to

see the status quo maintained? you accept it is going to be split

up? If we were moving speedily, it should remain for the medium term.

It should not continue into the indefinite future. We are certain

we need a solid department for the economy which would combine two

departments at the present time. There are aspects which -- of other

departments which would come into this as well. It is a step in the

right direction, but it could be a backward step if greater reforms

were needed down the line. Is that likely to happen considering what

has been said so far? They did listen, and they were taking some

letters of what we were saying, but it will be up to them to consider

their responses from the other parties, and see what further

proposals they are make. I hope you are all fans of Titanic, the ship.

If not, you might find the next few months tedious. The centenary of

the disaster is the jewel in the crown of this year's programme of

tourist attractions. Here are highlights of today's question-time

starting with the enterprising minister. As 20 12th marks the

centenary of the Titanic's maiden voyage and sinking, it provides a

once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for us. It is known worldwide and it is

time to plays Belfast as the home of Titanic. A two-week festival

will mark the opening of Titanic Belfast on 31st March and this is

an amazing opportunity for all of us across Northern Ireland and I

trust we will grasp it. I would like to thank the Minister for our

answer. Is she focusing too much attention and resources on to this

project? Will she be spreading those across? I don't accept that a

battle because Titanic is a worldwide brand. It is not just

going to help Belfast, it is going to halt the entirety of Northern

Ireland tourist trade. I want to say to the member it is wrong to

say we are just focusing on Titanic although I will readily say it is a

key -- Key Plan in what we are doing in 2012. There were seven

international events we were planning for this year, which is

now up to eight with the arrival of the Irish Open golf at the end of

July, or end of June. As well as Titanic Belfast, we have the one-

day concert in Londonderry, the land of giants in Belfast, the

Clipper Maritime homecoming Festival, the peace camp, the flags

at the Giants Causeway, and we have the 50th Belfast Festival, all

international events, bringing people into not just East Belfast

but to the whole of Northern Ireland, and that is key to all of

this. Will the Minister reassure the house, and there has been

public ventilation of this, that there has been an application for

European funding. And will she reassure the House that if that

funding is not forthcoming, it will not in any way impede the

development of this wonderful building and asset for the tourist

industry in Northern Ireland? content to confirm that is the case.

If the EU does not accept this grant application in respect of

Titanic, and we have no reason that they will not, but given the advice

we have been given by our own legal advisers, then other projects can

be put forward. The Titanic signature project is not at risk.

The financing of it is not at risk. I really do get frustrated when I

listen to some commentators that would try to play this up, instead

of playing up the importance of this to our tourism industry. I

have to say that the negativity surrounding the Audit Office report,

which, if you look at the detail in the Audit Office report, is talking

about visitors coming to the Titanic signature project, which is

of the same level as those visiting Belfast Zoo. If we cannot maintain

that, we shouldn't be doing the Titanic signature project, because

we must raise our game, have some confidence in ourselves and sell

Belfast across the world as a place for visitors to come to and have a

tremendous experience. Environment, and the thorny issue of double-

jobbing. Alex Attwood is determined That is why the consultation that a

shortly to conclude, indeed, did conclude an 16th December, in

respect to my proposal to reduce the allowances for MLAs to remain

as councillors, I intend to bring forward in the near future and as

members will be aware, the Executive, whilst they didn't

Executive, whilst they didn't Executive, whilst they didn't

endorse my best advice about a number of matters, they did endorse

my recommendation in November that in the forthcoming local government

legislation, there should be a ban on double jobbing when it comes to

on double jobbing when it comes to MLAs and councillors. Good a remind

people that in this House, there are 33 members who are still

members of the council? -- could I remind people. Could a press you

further to be more precise about the timing of the cutting off of

the funding stream? Undoubtedly, that is the action which will deal

with this issue because there are many members of the House who are

drawn down the extra 10,000 as a councillor. It does not end there,

they draw down money as a chairman or as members of outside bodies and

many of them inflates their family -- their salary to way beyond 50%

of their already generous salary. Perhaps those who were intervening

on those who are -- have most to account for. Allow the member to

continue. Can we expect that tap to be turned on -- turned off to bring

an end to this matter? There is an end to this matter? There is

sympathy and a lack of sympathy to sympathy and a lack of sympathy to

the remarks. Local representatives, it is a long time before you choose

to join our ranks, and serve the to join our ranks, and serve the

people of the North of Ireland with people of the North of Ireland with

very limited income, at some risk, and very often with a degree of

hostility across constituencies in the north. I value the service of

local councillors, going back over the last 20 or 30 or 40 years. That

is why this chamber was right to put into law and opportunities for

councillors to get severance. Social Development Minister has

been telling the Assembly that he is trying to recoup some �700,000

from the biggest social housing organisation here. It follows a

report released today that shows the company breached guidelines and

did not stick to its own procedures. Nelson McCausland went on to detail

a list of failures by the former management team. The report

highlights a number of significant failures of control and breaches of

compliance across all business areas. Those are the areas subject

to inspection. Indicating significant and substantial

failings by senior management within the association. Also, a

failure by the boards to affect an adequate challenge function to the

decision-making process within the association. This statement is

qualified by an inspection team's awareness that on occasions the

board had either not been fully briefed by the senior management

team or had been misinformed by them. Some of the main issues

identified were procurement procedures are not being followed,

breaches of statutory approvals, incorrect use of consultants, and

correct procedures for procurement of land, non-compliance with

housing association guides and that the use of middlemen or site

finders. Because of the nature of finders. Because of the nature of

finders. Because of the nature of the issues especially within

property development, and that accounts for the provision of new

housing stock, the inspection team carried out a detailed examination

of a significant number of development schemes to determine if

the housing association grant had been improperly claimed. The

outcome of this work confirmed the extent of the non-compliance.

However, it also established that with the exception of four schemes,

the grant was used for the purpose for which it was intended, namely

to provide social housing with the Northern Ireland. The amount of

grant which falls to be recovered his �669,000, of which �142,000 has

already been recouped and discussions are ongoing about the

recovery of the balance. In this regard, I would like to acknowledge

the response of the housing association to these findings. The

board has acted with openness and integrity throughout the inspection

and subsequent discussions and has demonstrated a keenness to address

all the issues raised. Gerry Kelly joins us now. The current

management said today that procedures are in place and this

procedures are in place and this could never happen again. Are you

satisfied? Never say never. The difficulty is that this was

substantial. To put this in context, this is �9.7 million, bought and

sold in the one-day at a profit of �3 million and the middlemen were

involved and developers and site managers were involved. The

Minister described it as significant, a significant failure.

In procurement and other aspects. I'm glad the investigation has

taken place and I listened to members of the committee, including

the chair. There are still questions to be answered and I

asked the Minister about the middle man and what sort of regulation

there was involved. He said that that has been looked at. I suppose

we come out of this saying that we do not want it to happen again.

they have put enough measures in place, as the Assembly but robust

measures in place to make sure that they are more closely monitors?

of the key issues -- one of the key issues is the oversight by the

Department of Social Development. That is the question which the

Minister has to look at. But we should not be in this position

again and there was something like �600,000 which has to be returned

to the Executive. The proof is in the pudding. We know what the

problem is now. It has been identified by all accounts, from

the committee. It was a fairly thorough investigation. The

challenge to the Minister is what will sorted out? Are you reassured

that there was nothing fraudulent and the company manager today said

that people got carried away in the boom and the people who made the

mistakes are no longer there. are huge mistakes and I think

people had to move out of their jobs because of that. To put this

in the context of North Belfast, we have a waiting list of some 2000

people. People are being denied housing because of the mistakes

here. People run hostels, who should not be in hostels. There is

overcrowding and there is a waiting list which could have been averted.

There is another issue, lasting for a considerable period of time, or

Nelson Street, across from the site. We have been fighting to try and

get these things sorted out. In fairness to the Minister, he said

that the report is happening now, but we look at that again and we

will look forward to asking him further questions. That it is out

in the open, public and accountable, that is important. We need to make

sure the accountability measures stay so that we cannot have a

disaster like this again. Thank you very much. Yesterday, saw the

launch of a new programme, Sunday politics, on BBC One each week.

Starting at noon. The local show Although it is new, it has already

got us noticed. One MLA 1/4 the report on bureaucracy in the

building industry. -- quoted our report. Ministers have noted the

questionnaire on the BBC yesterday. What is he doing to survive the

process? I did not listen to the whole of the programme, just a

snippet of it. That was enough of. As far as the criticisms made

yesterday, I have seen reports of them, and I think that some of them

were ill-founded. I see Mr Michael Owen is in his place, and for a

member of this Assembly who fully understands the way financial

arrangements work, to suggest that the Executive is withholding

contracts until the final year of this Assembly so that it looks like

we're spending more in the final here in the run-up to an election,

shut -- that shows a rank misunderstanding of public finance.

He knows full well that we cannot carry over huge amounts of capital

from one year to the next. In fact, we are only allowed to carry over

�50 million worth of capital from one year to the next so we could

not have possibly done what has been suggested. Some of the

criticisms are unwarranted and, really, anybody who makes them

should hang their heads in shame at the lack of understanding of how

this place works. One of the other point made was about qualification,

and how difficult it was, and the amount of work that was involved.

We have been working with the construction industry to simplify

the pre- qualification requirements and the documentation, and they

think that many of these suggestions, indeed, all of the

suggestions brought to us by the industry have been implemented by

the department. I recognise that we want to reduce the amount of

bureaucracy. Good to see we're helping the debate. Going back to

the housing issue, you also announced it -- organise the staff

to work across a housing associations. Is there a feeling of

sadness among some of your members that something so horrendous has

gone wrong? Undoubtedly. Our experience has been since the

establishment of the housing association, so there have been a

host of problems. Most of them are related to how they are run, and

how they managed. It is an area, when you are engaged in this kind

of micro commissioning, and transferring public functions into

a sector like that, you really have a big obligation as government to

make sure that the real systems are in place, for the Protection of

everybody, not least public money. And clearly, they were not.

seems to be the outcome. I would hope that there would be a hard

look at how this is being handled, because there has not even been

consistency approaching the associations themselves, and how

they are established. The Secretary of State, or Owen Paterson, played

host to that Taoiseach today. Together with the Secretary of

State, he was at Stormont Castle today. They were not keen to answer

any questions about the just as business that you have been hearing

about. They say that is a devolved matter. -- justice business. They

did say that they had agreed, together with the First and Deputy

First Minister, to make a bid for another tranche of European peace

money. Mr Gilmore explained that could be quite significant,

something like �200 million worth, if they were to get that from the

system. In relation to the size of this money, it is in the order of

200 and -- �330 million over a number of years. We would like to

see something of the same size being continued. Obviously, we have

to first of all have an assessment of the third piece, and the

projects that were undertaken under it, and see what proposals can be

brought forward for the next stage. That work is being undertaken to

progress that. We await the outcome. You were there for all the action

on Friday at the British Irish summit. What did you take away from

it? Fascinating to be at a summit where there is a bone of contention

about the state of the UK but it is not anything to do with Irish

republicans. Martin McGuinness had a walk-on part although he made the

best joke with the business of peace talks being undertaken at

Stormont Castle. Instead, all the conversation was based on Scotland,

and Nick Clegg. We could talk about a hypothetical, what could happen

if the independence referendum works out. But at the weekend, it

was interesting that Peter Johnson, chatting to me, said that he was

concerned that the pursuit that stuck -- that Stormont has for some

time of extra towers -- extra powers of corporation tax, that

that could get mixed up with the top of extra taxation powers, the

school autonomy or keep maximum devolution. That is a concern that

many politicians have here, that it might delay things. And another

issue today, fast food outlets near schools. Yes, interestingly the

talks on justice which took place at Stormont Castle were fuelled on

the basis of 26 fish suppers sent out during the talks, but if you're

a fast food retail outlet, you might want to get your planning

application in quickly because we noticed a question from the Green

Party's MLA, Stephen Agnew, about whether the Health Minister would

support any change in the law if a fast food outlet was going to be

located next to a school. Broadly speaking, Edwin Poots said that he

would be in favour, potentially, of changes in the legislation, and

that is part of the healthy policy towards school children.

One final word from you, obviously, all over the Christmas period it

has been well publicised, the difficulty at some of hour accident

and emergency departments. Is it a season -- seasonal blip or is it a

sign of things to come? It is a dose of honesty that we need. We

probably sound like we around the same mantra all the time, -- We are

all on the same mantra all the time, but we represent the people in