16/02/2016 Stormont Today

The First and Deputy First Ministers suggest that looking at how other

legislatures deal with the vexed issue of Members' expenses might be

useful for the Assembly as it grapples with its latest

And MLAs back the latest move in the process to reduce

their number by 18 in five years' time.

The First Minister makes her views on the expenses saga clear.

There's a lot of confusion out there as to what has actually happened in

relation to this whole regime, and I think it is important we give

clarity to the people that elect us, and there is openness and

transparency. It's a numbers game as the reduction

in MLAs moves one step closer. As the previous debates in this bill

have focused mainly on the question of an earlier date for it to come

into effect than 2021, we think is unlikely that any member would want

a situation where it was actually deferred to 2026.

And with me to look at today's business is the commentator

Stormont should look to Westminster as an example of how

That was the view expressed by the First Minister today

as she gave her reaction to the ongoing saga

And the Deputy First Minster said he's always open to listening

to advice from other places on such matters.

The Speaker has called a meeting of the Assembly Commission tomorrow

Arlene Foster and Martin McGuinness spoke to reporters this afternoon

I think we have always said that there is a need to be as open and

transparent as we possibly can be, and indeed, when this came up the

last time, we had suggested that we should perhaps move to the type of

model that runs at Westminster, and of course, our Westminster

colleagues are happy to operate under that model, we are very happy

to operate under similar models here, but at that time, we did not

receive support in relation to that suggestion, and perhaps the other

parties might like to look at that suggestion again now.

You think it is necessary to have some sort of review of what has gone

on to restore some of the credibility and reputation of

Stormont? I think it is important that we take

away from individual members the ability to do what has been

suggested has been done, because it is to protect them as much as to

protect the integrity of the institutions, because there is a lot

of confusion out there as to what has actually happened in relation to

this whole regime, and I think it is important that we give clarity to

the people that elect us, and there is an openness and transparency, so

we look forward to hearing what the commission has to say in relation to

all of these issues in the coming days.

Is its early model as far as you're concerned?

We do believe that is the best way forward, and IPSA styled model.

Maybe a little bureaucratic, but the most important thing is to be as

open and transparent as we possibly can.

How damaging has this row being over the last couple of days?

Well, of course, it has gathered momentum over the past days. I think

there is a necessity now to review what has occurred and move forward

from there, because I think we need to protect the individual members as

well as of course, the integrity of the Assembly.

If there is a question mark over any aspect of expenditure, that needs to

be resolved. But I reiterate, we have had a very

strong statement from the Assembly commission, which is made up of all

the political parties. Not all of them are friends of Sinn Fein. They

have absolutely accepted that the expenses incurred by Sinn Fein MLA

's over what was a 10-year period was proper expenditure. I don't

think there is anybody in this place that believes there is anything

secretive about how people claim they're properly incurred expenses.

So I do think that what we need to see is the outworking of this one

case that was identified this morning on the radio of a person who

challenge that. There may be one or two others who have challenged it.

I'm not aware of that. So I am as optimistic as a Woody Austin hear

what that involves. And if the independent parliamentary

and the 30 Westminster does make suggestions for changes to the

regime here, do you think those should be taken up?

I think we're always open to listening advice and the example

from other places. I don't think there is any difficulty about that

at all, and I'm sure there is not one MLA in the place he would object

to having a fresh look at how we can remove from the public mind, any

suggestion whatsoever that people appear after the ring their own

nests. That clearly is not happening.

The Westminster expenses regulator has weighed in to the debate

It's all getting more murky?

I think it is, and remember, in 2009, the issue of expenses erupted

at Westminster, and ultimately, that, native in the establishment of

IPSA, and now we see in Stormont, the issue of expenses coming into

the public domain. It is something politicians have a right to feel

very nervous about. We saw the First Minister Arlene Foster twice in that

report referred to the need for openness and transparency to be the

buzzword to the public to have integrity in the situation. And

Martin McGuinness was coming from the same angle. So I very much seen

out, with IPSA intervening, there will be pressure going to move away

from the system we have at the moment, which kind of split the

power between the panel, and we know to members of that panel. Three of

them have come out within the past 48 hours, very critical of the

Assembly commission. So I think there will now be pressure to move

towards what pertains at Westminster, the IPSA body, which in

a sense will move, for the politicians, that will create a

buffer for them which will, in a sense, have a breathing space from,

so they won't face such criticism in the future.

And ironically, that is what Pat McCartan who chairs that independent

panel has been calling for. And now the Speaker

has called a meeting Will that shed any

further light on things? I think what we saw from the Speaker

calling this meeting tomorrow of the Assembly commission, he is also

making the point in that statement today, kind of disputing what had

come out in the media today about a secret appeals process, and there

seems to be a little bit of a dispute around how much that is the

case. But very much, I think that both the Speaker and the political

leaders at Stormont will want to move towards IPSA, or a Style model,

because they realise there is the potential to damage the situation,

and ultimately their own political credibility with the general public.

We often say in circumstances like this that perception is all.

It is very important when we talk about an issue, there was a BBC

programme critical of Sinn Fein a few years ago in this regard, we

know there have been times when politicians have had financial

irregularities alleged, and politicians get very nervous around

that. That is something that can eat at the credibility of political

institutions, and therefore, I think there is an easy way to resolve

this, by moving towards the IPSA model. I think the political class

will move in that direction very quickly.

We will talk to you again later. Thank you very much.

Since Christmas, reform of the Assembly has dominated

proceedings in the chamber and another element

of the "new" Stormont moved a little closer today.

It was the further consideration stage of the bill responsible

for reducing the number of MLAs in the Assembly,

and everyone was in agreement that there will be 18 fewer of them

These amendments will guarantee that should Royal assent for this bill

not be obtained before the election and May the 5th, the reduction in

the number of MLAs will still apply to the next election held after the

forthcoming elections in May. As the previous debates on this bill have

focused mainly on the question of an earlier date for it to come into

effect than 2021, we think it unlikely that any member would want

the situation where it was actually deferred to 2026. So I would

therefore ask members to support these amendments which support the

objective of the bill. We know there are provisions contained in them

number three, that should there be a change to the as a result of the

2018 parliamentary boundary review, the committee would be legislatively

mandated to review the number of members return three constituency.

We further note that the amendment also calls to report on the findings

of its review before December the 1st, 2018.

There is it a temptation to oppose the technical amendments are the

reduction to reduce MLAs is pushed 2026, but on this occasion, I resist

that sensation. I have decided we are content to support the amendment

outlined by the junior minister in order to create certainty in

relation to that matter. It was forged out of agreement. I am

glad that that agreement has come about. It is an objective of my

party to adjust the number of Assembly members. We have not got

everything we won, but we are making progress. That must be welcomed.

We are certainly going in the right direction. The options of this party

have been clear on this. We support the reduction in numbers with the

current timeline. We doesn't want it earlier. Because we feel we can't

rush these decisions. We need to make sure the Assembly is inclusive,

diverse, and providing the proper government for our people, so to

that end, we will be supporting the reduction.

The Ulster Unionist Party's Andy Allen.

It's one of the largest pieces of legislation to come before

the Assembly, and today the Mental Capacity Bill moved

on to its next stage after considering a total

The bill aims to create a legal framework for the treatment or care

of those judged to lack the capacity to make a decision for themselves.

As members may be aware, and advanced decision is a decision that

a person makes when they have capacity to refuse a specific

treatment in the future, should they lose capacity. Clause 11 gives

statutory recommendation to advance decisions that does not include

provisions around how they should be made or operated. That will continue

to be governed by common law. The main reason for adopting this is one

of flexibility. Common law can continue to evolve past the

provisions or not -- are not set in stone. This is an different approach

the English act of 2005, which codified the common law rules, the

Scotland did not go down this road. My department has consistently

maintained that fusing mental health and mental capacity legislation will

create a radically different legal framework to those in which the

common law rules were developed, and which has not been attempted

anywhere else yet. So simply following the English approach is

not the answer here in our circumstances. The more prudent

course, which I'm convinced is the right one, is to give this bill time

to bed in before deciding what the rules around advanced decisions

should be. As far as I can see, there just is not the consensus or

certainty needed to be able to legislate for it now. We as an

Assembly are better taking the time to get it right, and the bill as

drafted allows us to do that. This is the first ad hoc joint

committee, of course, that has been established by the committee, and is

membership was drawn from both the health and justice committees. We

began our work in May 2015, with the task of looking at the committee

stage of the mental capacity Bill, which as the Minister has

acknowledged, was one of the largest bill that has ever come in front of

the Assembly. Members will be aware that the background to the bill was

the Bamford review, which in 2007, concluded there should be a single

executive framework to reform the existing mental health legislation

and Judy 's capacity legislation to Northern Ireland for the first time.

Mental health law is broadly concerned with the reduction of the

risks flowing from a mental disorder to the patient and other people,

whilst mental capacity law is designed to empower people to make

decisions for themselves and possibly to protect people who lack

capacity. They keep their busy developing a single legislative

framework to cover both mental health and mental capacity is to

attempt to reduce the stigma and the inequalities which can sometimes

flow from having specific mental health legislation. However, the

production of such a piece of legislation is in no way a

straightforward task, and Northern Ireland is the only place in the

world to attempt such an approach. Mental capacity issues can affect

anybody. It is important we have robust legislation. I believe the

principles of this bill will transform mental health legislation

and the passage was hugely benefit those within society who lacked

capacity or may lack capacity in the future. We have almost 20,000 people

living in Northern Ireland with dementia, a number which is likely

to rise. 1% of the population suffers from schizophrenia. 13%

suffers from depression. 214,000 carers here for people who may lack

capacity. All these people and many others may need important decisions

to be made on their behalf or they may need to make decisions for other

people. We can see how important the bill would be for those with mental

illness and their families. This bill has been described as

representing a paradigms shift. No longer will they be treated, or

seen, as a separate class. Capacity will no longer be defined

differently among people, which has to be recognised as being positive.

I am glad the bill has reached this stage. There was concern whether it

would be caught up with the dissolution of the assembly. I will

express my disappointment as to how long it took for the bill to come to

the floor, especially considering it on the wider, single, legislative

framework which was proposed as far back as 2009 with the Bamford

Review. It was a very important bill. All members on the committee

showed a willingness for it to reach this stage. The bill before us will

hopefully improve the lot of people who have suffered from mental

illness, mental health and learning disabilities has always been

regarded as the Cinderella of the health services. Hopefully this work

will bring it to a level playing field. That is what we are all

striving to attain. All of this work comes on the foundation of the

sterling work of the Bamford working group on mental health and learning

disability. This bill, in terms of offering a single, integrated mental

capacity act, is ground-breaking and world beating in terms of best

practice by international standards. The Alliance Party's Kieran McCarthy

talking up what he sees Funding for the A5 road project

and a difference in rates amounts for non-domestic properties

were addressed during questions But first, Mervyn Storey,

was asked about a review of the financial process here,

and why it hasn't been acted upon, despite being approved by both

the Finance Committee The report of the review of

financial processes has not been discussed by the executive. Without

agreement, the proposal that it contains cannot be implemented. One

of the proposals in the paper related to the departmental

structures and with the move to the nine new department structure this

will have to then be revisited. It is now over six years since the

report was forwarded to the executive for action. By any

standards, action should now have been taken to improve a very

cumbersome system, which does not provide proper accountability. We

need to look again at it to see how it can be refined and see how we can

give the assurance, or at least the commitment, that we are creating

what is a process which is transparent, gives us that

accountability, and delivers for us in the way that we have intended. He

talks about transparency. I do not see that much transparency. I see a

lot of the Paik nurse. Having been here for 18 years, I would like to

see an improvement. -- opaqueness. Can the minister guarantee that?

Some may say that the member should go to spec Savers and he might be

able to have more transparency. Maybe our budget to processes a bit

like the advert when the person who is responsible for clipping the she

ends up clipping the dogs as opposed to the sheep. -- the sheep. The

consultation on the new draft. Budgetary orders and the

environmental statement for the A5 Western transport corridor jewel

carriageways deem a few days ago, subject to successful completion of

the statutory procedures, construction work starts next year

on the ?150 -- ?150 million new buildings. That is a clear

indication. This executive and this assembly has been criticised in the

past about not making decisions. We are criticised when we make

decisions. He was a clear example of a considerable degree of investment

that is being made. Charity shops play a very important role in our

country. However, many will argue that they dominate our high streets

and Main Street across Northern Ireland. What steps, if any, can be

taken to ensure this imbalance is addressed? I thank the member for

his question. I would not say it relates -- I would say in relation

to this issue, we have to deal with the issue in a sensitive way. I am

well aware of correspondence that I have had. I am well aware of

lobbying there has been. When you come to this issue, when you begin

to change the rules that govern particularly the issue of rating,

there is always a tendency to, in some way, go after one particular

element that seems to be the easiest. However, my approach to

this would be cautious. It will be fair. It would be equitable. I think

I have listened to the concerns of other retailers who have undoubtedly

said there are disparities, there are differences which need to be

addressed. As if the marathon Mental Capacity

Bill didn't make enough work for the Health Minister today,

Simon Hamilton also He was asked how seriously

Northern Ireland is taking the Zika virus and, first of all,

he told MLAs that the number of people on waiting

lists is "unacceptable". Provisionally at the end of December

2015, patients were waiting longer than 52 weeks for a first outpatient

appointment. These figures are totally unacceptable. It is

regrettable that more people are waiting to be seen and are waiting

longer due to the financial constraints that led to the decision

to suspend the independent sector in-house activity last year. It was

frustrating that ?9.5 million was being lost every month from the

Northern Ireland public finances each and every month as a result of

welfare reform being blocked. Such a fund could have funded many

thousands of assessments and procedures. I welcome the allocation

of an additional ?40 million which will go towards tackling waiting

lists and is expected to benefit many thousands of patients who

otherwise would have been waiting. Significant efforts have been made

across the health and social care system. It will also put into place

appropriate arrangements with independent sector organisations.

This is just the start and much more additional funding will be needed to

get us back to where we were. We are moving in the right direction. I

hope patients will see the benefit of this as soon as possible. What I

am asking specifically, in relation to waiting times, will the minister

considered the imposition of referral to treatment targets that

have been put place -- into place in other countries internationally? I

take exception about what she has said about the approach of the DUP

and any other party, seeking to move forward with welfare legislation. We

were not happy with either. I've fought the fight at Westminster, was

against it when others were absent. I sought to deliver the best

possible deal for Northern Ireland. I do not want to get into some sort

of argument with the member opposite about the fact they have signed up

to that welfare reform legislation. We have at least now moved forward

and beyond that, hopefully. That has freed up a very welcome injection of

40 with him pounds into waiting lists in Northern Ireland which will

make sure that some have already got their treatment and some will get

their treatment. -- ?40 million. Patients across a range of

specialisms will get the help and care they need. I am content to look

at the ways in which we can look at targets. Sometimes they are

important and sometimes we focus on them too much. I am content to

certainly have a conversation and consider other targets other

jurisdictions have had and see what impact they have had and whether

they are more accurate measure of the situation. The Public health

agency is leading the response to the Zika virus and has issued advice

to help professionals. The pHA also issued a press release for pregnant

women. It is important to note that Zika is transmitted by mosquitoes

not native to Northern Ireland and the public health risk in this

country is extremely low and no greater than risks posed by other

mosque Ito borne infections like malaria. Almost all cases of the

virus are caused by mosquito bites although a few cases have been

caused by sexual transmission. -- mosquito borne infections. Pregnant

women must receive appropriate advice and need to beware of

symptoms and the actions to be taken for travellers.

Simon Hamilton on the threat posed by Zika virus.

The Assembly passed legislation today designed to help the police

and other agencies better tackle organised crime.

The Justice Minister explained that the police will now be able

to seize cash from alleged criminals and freeze other assets

as their investigations are underway.

The Proceeds of Crime Act is designed to provide law enforcement

agencies with tools to cover the proceeds of crime and deny criminals

the possibility to cumin a asset secured by illegal means. The act

empowers law enforcement officers to seize cash and ensure its forfeiture

court proceedings. In the UK, between 2010 and 2014, criminal

assets worth more than ?746 million were seized across all methods of

recovery and assets were frozen. In Northern Ireland in 2014/ ?2 million

was recovered through confiscation orders. There are still more to do

to retain the proceeds of crime. The changes being addressed here today

are a step in that direction. In conclusion, it removes criminal

assets that could be used to support more common activity. It sends a

message that crime does not paid. Used to maximum effect, it will

disrupt and deterred criminality. This will bring three distinct codes

of practice into operation. The codes of practice will provide

necessary guidance constables and officers with responsibility in this

area, specifically in relation to cash searches and the seizure and

detention of property. Could I ask him to reflect on what memoranda of

understanding, or issues we have with the Republic of Ireland, given

the high propensity of criminality, cross-border criminality? Given the

Proceeds of Crime Act is a UK legislation, there are implications

with regard to cross-border relationships. The cross-border task

force will be a key way of ensuring that cross-border criminality is

addressed. I hope in the near future we will be launching the revision of

the cross-border policing arrangements and, certainly, I think

it will show that good work can continue across-the-board and when

assets are being seized, which is a key part of this, there is

significant cooperation between the various agencies involved, including

the two police agencies and the National crime agency to ensure work

is coordinated as far as possible. And Chris Donnelly has

joined me for a final word. The Mental Capacity Bill

was described as one of the largest pieces of legislation to come

before the Assembly. 489 amendments and considerable

time spent on voting - and again it raises the issue

of electronic voting. Yes. The mental capacity Bill

stretches back to the Bamford review. Almost 500 amendments today.

We looked to Scotland where they do have a electronic voting. It helps

to expedite through business quickly in the party should be looking at

this in terms of the future. There were some unhappy teachers speaking

to members of the education committee today. That issue is close

to your heart. Some teachers met with members of the education

committee. When initially announced it was popular, the idea that 500

teachers over 55 could retire early and make way for 500 younger

teachers. But it only applies to a certain number of teachers who have

qualified in the last two years. So, those teachers who are up to ten

years after being qualified to teach and have not got permanent jobs

cannot apply. They are complaining, justifiably so, from their

perspective. From the minister 's perspective, the younger teachers

are the ones who cost the lease and if it is open more broadly, probably

there would not be as many jobs available.

I'll be back with The View on Thursday night, so do join me

Until then, from everyone in the team, bye-bye.

I'm raising my game and I WILL come out on top.

Bring it on. Bring it on. Bring it on.

This time, we're aiming higher than ever before.

The Sport Relief season continues with