17/10/2011 Stormont Today


17/10/2011

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Hello. Welcome to Stormont Today. Well lady gatpwa may be coming to

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Belfast for the MT -- Lady GaGa may be coming to Belfast for the MTV

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awards. Given there is a forecast of severe

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winter to come this winter. I say that almost everywhere I go now I

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am met with dark predictions of weather conditions. The members

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would have money to burn to keep them warm. In the best and worst of

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times, the numeration for politicians will always be

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controversial. It is simple to understand why. With me throughout

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the programme is Fiona McCausland, from the Anti-Poverty Network.

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Heating or eating - that's a choice we hear many people are making.

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When Edwina Currie cast doubt on it at the weekend she caused uproar.

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What levels of poverty do we experience here in Northern

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Ireland? Is the former Tory MP out of step?

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Fiona McCausland from, the Anti- Poverty Network can give us her

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views. Is she out of step? Is she wrong? Well the people we talk to

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and the people who are experiencing poverty at the sharp end, they are

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making the choices between eating a hot meal or putting an extra bar on

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the fire. It is a reality for many people. It is not a cliche. It is a

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living reality. That reality will hit more and more people. People

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who were not in poverty last year or in poverty this year. Those

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numbers will grow next year. Last year, nearly 700 older people died

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because of lack of heating. That figure is expected to double this

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year. Yet, our Government has cut the Winter Fuel Payments that could

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help make the difference between life and death. Is there a lack of

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appreciation and lack of compassion among some people? Edwina Currie,

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presumably isn't alone in her views? There's a very powerful

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voice come from some of the press in London, putting blame on people

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who are most vulnerable such as migrant workers, lone parents, even

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older people. That tactic must stop because people will die and we have

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to become a more compassionate society. We have to become a more

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equal society. Do we have greater poverty in Northern Ireland

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compared to the rest of the UK or compared to the republic? Yes, we

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do. We are a community emerge from conflict. Conflict is fuelled by

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poverty, where there's a grievance, where there is an identity or an

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issue around borders. It's proven that poverty does cause conflict,

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not just on its own, but with those other factors interfacing.

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Following the conflict it is typical that persistent child

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poverty, that is children living in poverty for a long period of time,

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that is more common and that is an example of what happens in post

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conflict societies throughout the world. And Northern Ireland does

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experience that level of persistent child poverty. Fiona, stay with us.

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Plenty more to talk about later. With reports of snow in some parts

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today, it was good timing that the issue of treating roads and

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footpaths should come up in questions to the Regional

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Development Minister. Question Time was dominated by weather issues as

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the Social Development Minister was quizzed on warm homes. We start

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with regional development and good news for pedestrians. As the

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members are aware, there's no legal responsibility for either councils

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or road service to treat footpaths with salt or grit during adverse

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weather. However, my department's road service has held a series of

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meeting with representatives and the society of local authority

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chief executives throughout the months. I personally attended the

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first of these meet after which the executive continues the

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negotiations on my behalf. It was to establish a consensus on a

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number of points of principal which could be used as a basis for

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negotiations between road service and councils, relating to the

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removal of snow and ice from busy town centre footwells during

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prolonged periods of wintry weather. And pleased that agreement has been

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reached, providing a willingness to provide a service to local rate

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payers. Road service has incorporated these points into a

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draft amendment, which can be used to take account of preferences.

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They are going to all councils to have this in place for this coming

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winter season. It should be stressed that under these efforts

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the focus will be on the busiest footwears as it would not be

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possible to treat them on a wide- spread basis. In addition to the

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2012 budget, to deal with the anticipated server weather, it does

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earmark funds to provide a salting service with the aim of helping

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main road traffic to move freely in winter conditions. Could the

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minister tell us if the executive has any discussions with him

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regarding additional budget? If there was additional money

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available, whether this would allow salt to be provided to council and

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to provide to council staff to do the work? A member for his

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supplementary. Can I say that almost everywhere I go now I am met

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with dark predictions of weather conditions, which are likely this

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coming winter. Whether or not that's from the almanac or made up

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to make me feel uncomfortable or not, I don't know. I know the

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member would not be in that category any way. I am not a

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prophet or a son of a prophet, nor do I read the almanac. Back in 2002,

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there was a discussion around a service, annual service fee to

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participating councils. No mention of that in the points of principal.

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Can the minister assure us that we are going to have a working

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relationship between DRD and local councils, for who ever is

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responsible to deal with the problem? And not do, as the member

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there was suggesting, pass the buck to the executive? I am grateful to

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the member. I'm reminded that when one talks about principals of what

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Marks said these are my principals and if you don't like them I have

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some more. Nonetheless there are important principals agreed which

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are being reflected between section engineers and local councils. Under

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the agreed principals, road service will made salt available for

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councils free of charge. Road Service will provide man power to

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councils where resources permit and pass on the legal indem knitty to

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my department to councils and groups working on their behalf such

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as chambers of commercial or -- chambers of commerce.

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These members wanted to know about lagged pipes. A considerable amount

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of work has been undertaken to ensure that housing executive staff

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and their contractors will be in a position to respond effectively and

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speedily if there are severe weather conditions. Engineers are

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checking that all water pipes are properly insulated when they visit

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properties to carry out planned servicing to the systems. Any

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missing or damaged insulation will be replaced at that time. This will

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see improves to 3,800 properties. The housing executives magazine for

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tenants views will be issued until the end of this month and will

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include a full page of guidance on avoiding burst pipes, dealing

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frozen pipes, with those that burst, finding the cock stop in the

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property and what to do if you have no water. A further leaflet will be

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included with the magazine. I have held a meeting the housing

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executive to review preparations and response plans. Can I ask the

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minister, telephone communications was an area the housing minister

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has done. Has anything been done to improve this? A number of actions

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have been taken to improve this. Including the staff willing to

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respond to an emergency across the province has been enhanced A review

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has been undertaken of the triggers which provide a warning of a

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potential emergency, such as the volume of calls come into their

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their customer service unit and the number of calls not being answered

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to. Facilitate use by emergency services, public representatives

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and community representatives, a priority call handling system of

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silver numbers is now in place. When will the insulation be

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upgraded to modern day standards? The member will be aware of recent

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comments that I made in relation to the installation of double glazing

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in all housing executive properties. And the current situation is that

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60% of housing executive properties do not have double glazing only 40%

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do. In some constituencies, including my own the figure is at

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70%, in some areas it is lower. As part of the programme which will be

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rolled out in relation to double glazing, associated with that will

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be an improvement to the enhancement of the level of

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insulation. You need to do the two together. The fact is that under

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the current proposals by the executive it would be another

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decade before that was fully completed. That's because, over

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quite a number of years, the issue of double glazing and maintenance

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and insulation on existing problems was de-prioritised. We are re-

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prioritising that. I'm looking to work with the housing executive at

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the moment and speaking to those who have their hands on the purse

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strings to see what we can do. See what we can do to make sure

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additional money is made available to have that programme completed in

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a shorter period of time. One in five young people is unemployed and

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getting them back into work is one of the Government's priorities.

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Some 16-19 year olds came to Stormont Today to complain that

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their training project has had its funding cut. Here's the project

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leader. We're here because we want them to recognise what we're doing.

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We have a programme which is a year old. We're not here talking about

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this, we are talking and a model that is working. We're here to ask

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them to recognise and identify what we're doing and identify us for

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what we're doing. It's important. The kids are unique, they are

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different. They need that programme to match it. I have asked for ages

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for someone to physically come and visit the centre and see first-hand

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the quality of the work these guys are producing. It's as simple as

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that. The last two feedbacks we had was a refer -- we've been fobed off.

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I think there's a -- fobbed off. think there's an issue. These

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people have come from difficult backgrounds. They have been led up

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the garden path and dropped, so the committee will want to take it up.

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If you do have a job and if you are asked if your salary was high

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enough, what would you say? MLAs are being surveyed on pay and

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allowances. Martina Purdy asked the chair of

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the independent review panel if a It's within our powers to cut the

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salaries by 50%, either do that or increase it by 50% or more or

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somewhere in between. That's something which the evidence will

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support. We haven't gathered that evidence fully yet. Do you think

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their pay is too low? Currently in comparison with the other

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legislatures, in Wales for example, the level of pay is �53,000 per

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annum, in Scotland, �57,000 per annum. With �43,000, per annum,

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albeit for 108MLAs you might take the view there is a little headroom.

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What is your view now? I don't have a view. I will have a view in

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February. Even if the best of times or the worst of times, the level of

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remuneration for politicians will always be controversial. It's

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simple to understand why. And in terms of those MLAs who have

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responded to your consultation, have any said they don't want to

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take a pay rise? Not that I've seen. Well let's put that issue to our

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guest. Fiona, what do you think about the pay MLAs receive. It is

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significantly less than in Scotland and Wales. I mean everybody has a

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right to fair pay. And also pay review and to see the pay is

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commence rat with the skills and level of work they're carrying out.

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At this time, when they're imposing cuts from the coalition Government

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at Westminster, it would be seen as very insensitive. It is eradicate

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poverty day across Europe. Is it realistic to see our getting rid of

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poverty? Poverty is seen as abuse. So this special day comes every

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year. Targets have been set. Unfortunately the Government at

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Westminster and at Stormont do not look as if they're going to meet

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the targets. We'll chat more in a moment. Now small rural schools

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should be allowed to work together to survive Government cuts, that

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was Conal McDevitt's call during debate this afternoon. Teachers and

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:15:17.:15:17.

parents face uncertainty over the the future with classes decided as

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not viable. The things putting schools under threat is a

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conconstituency, the fact we aren't taking decisions in the proper way

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at many other, in many other parts of the education governance

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structure. Deputy Speaker, there is a problem with premature school

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closures. Why should any of this be happening before the boards and the

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department itself is reorganised? Surely they should rationalise

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themselves and their costly support services before they begin to

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butcher our rural schools. No-one denies, least of all me, the need

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for maximum efficiency in the deployment of resources, but what

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is open to question is the process we're engaged in to achieve this.

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Boards appear to be jumping the gun with or without the tacit support

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of the department and school closures are being predetermined

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ahead of the audit the minister has announced. That's the perception

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out there with the public. That is the perception of the principals in

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the report I mentioned. There is one thing that I'm sure of and that

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is that this premature race to close schools will tear the heart

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out of many rural communities and will do so at a time when we need

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to look at schools as a community resource. I will deal with each

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school on the basis of need, not on the basis of creed. I will ensure

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there is equality of treatment for all children and young people

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regardless. Schools are there to meet the needs of puerp ills

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whether in rural or urban settings. I am determined to reshape the

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system to provide high quality education that can be sustained for

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all pupils. I understand schools carry with them emotional

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attachment and history. However, let's not let that cloud our

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decision making with emotion or history. It's our young people's

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futures we are dealing with. We should not blight that because we

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hanker after the past. With me is Mervyn Storey, chair of the

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Education Committee. Why did you not support the alliance motion

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about integrated education? Because surely that's the DUP's vision?

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think the DUP's vision is for shared education. Therecy -- there

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is a difference. It has created considerable difficulties

:17:56.:18:01.

particularly for the control sector. We wanted to ensure that we have a

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debate which focuses around the needs of schools and this debate

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today was an important debate because there's huge amount of fear,

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concern and suspicion with parents and teachers right across Northern

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Ireland, about what their future is. I think the debate today was

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extremely useful to have those issues aired. What is that future?

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The future is to ensure we have sustainable schools which give the

:18:26.:18:31.

best quality education to our children. So under a certain number,

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the schools will automatically close, do you support that? We need

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to move away from this arbitrary figure, unless it has 105, if it's

:18:41.:18:46.

a rural school or 500 if it's an urban post-primary school, that

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somehow that school is unviable. We have to look, the minister was

:18:50.:18:53.

indicating that today, about the quality of the education and I

:18:53.:19:00.

think we have to ensure that we have the buy in from the local

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communities tone sure we have communities which are content and

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happy with the education provision which they have in their area.

:19:06.:19:10.

People aren't going to be happy if their small, rural school, just

:19:10.:19:14.

down the road is going to close. That surely is going to happen in

:19:14.:19:18.

many cases, if not the majority. The sad reality is particularly in

:19:18.:19:23.

the control sector, we have seen the closure of some rural schools.

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There are some rural schools which should never have been built. I can

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think of one particular school in my constituency that was opened in

:19:32.:19:37.

2006, at a cost of well over �500,000 where somewhere in the

:19:37.:19:42.

region of 25 pupils. Today it's closed. The issues we have to face

:19:42.:19:47.

is to ensure that we have education provision, which is the very best

:19:47.:19:51.

and I think that's looking at the needs of the local community. And

:19:51.:19:54.

it ensures that our children, either in the primary, post-primary

:19:55.:19:58.

sector, are getting the best possible opportunity to have the

:19:58.:20:02.

best possible education. On another issue, where do you stand on this

:20:02.:20:06.

issue of MLA's pay? I know it's been taken from your hands. Have

:20:06.:20:10.

you to take what they have said, are you happy to take a pay

:20:10.:20:13.

increase at a time when services are being cut and so many thousands

:20:13.:20:19.

of people out of work? The DUP's position has always been that we

:20:19.:20:23.

wanted an independent advisory panel to look at this. That has

:20:23.:20:26.

happened. We have come through on rer does situation in the past,

:20:26.:20:31.

when the focus has been around what MPs have been paid and all the

:20:31.:20:35.

issues around expenses. I think that now we have a situation

:20:35.:20:38.

whereby this will be put into independent hands and they will

:20:38.:20:42.

make the decision, I'm happy to abide by that. You'll accept a pay

:20:42.:20:47.

rise if they give it to you? think we have to look at what is

:20:47.:20:50.

said coming out of the review. It would be foolish of me to pre-empt

:20:50.:20:54.

what that is. Certainly, in the economic climate that we're in

:20:54.:20:59.

today, I think we have to look at every option in relation to

:20:59.:21:03.

payments, expenses, all of those things. We are well scrutinised and

:21:03.:21:07.

people know well what is the situation with regards to our

:21:07.:21:11.

financial situation. Mervyn Storey, thanks for joining us. Now we've

:21:11.:21:15.

seen tears and tantrums at recent committee meetings. At the Justice

:21:15.:21:18.

Committee last week one civil servant got a grilling. We'll see

:21:18.:21:22.

that in a moment. First the Education Committee discussing poor

:21:22.:21:28.

leadership in schools. Members will wish to note that no Prince pals,

:21:28.:21:36.

vice Prince pals or teachers have been dismissed for unsatisfactory

:21:36.:21:40.

performance in the last five years. You may wish to consider the

:21:40.:21:43.

information about the correlation between class size and the levels

:21:43.:21:47.

of attainment. The issue in relation, I don't want this to

:21:47.:21:54.

sound as though you're sort of trying to make principals and

:21:54.:21:58.

teachers scapegoats for the issue of underperformance, however we

:21:58.:22:04.

have a responsibility. It is concerning that there are saying

:22:04.:22:08.

that nobody has been dismissed. We want tone sure that we have a

:22:08.:22:18.
:22:18.:22:20.

process that works. What sanction is there against inner schools

:22:20.:22:24.

where there's identified a leadership issue. We all have

:22:24.:22:30.

examples of where there may be an issue of the leadership in the

:22:30.:22:34.

school and, I can think of one particular, and we have lost over

:22:34.:22:40.

the last term at least 25 to 30 children from the school. It

:22:40.:22:45.

becomes almost impossible to stop that. If we're not measuring poor

:22:45.:22:49.

leadership and a school becomes unsustainable because of poor

:22:49.:22:54.

leadership, it is nearly waiting for the inevitable to occur. It's

:22:54.:22:57.

the department letting poor leadership continue because there's

:22:57.:23:01.

no control mechanism there and the inevitable occurring, the numbers

:23:01.:23:05.

go down. It becomes unsustainable and the community ends up paying

:23:05.:23:11.

because someone didn't interview. Staff morale as well. The whole

:23:11.:23:14.

thing. There's correspondence from the chief executive of the forensic

:23:14.:23:17.

science Northern Ireland on the back of our indications we would

:23:17.:23:22.

like to visit the facilities. In the response he has said that those

:23:22.:23:28.

members that are going to attend will need to have DNA taken. That's

:23:28.:23:36.

to ensure that the evidence or any of the items isn't contaminated, if

:23:36.:23:40.

they're taken before a case, someone says actually it wasn't me,

:23:40.:23:47.

such and such was here. They've advise today will not be detained.

:23:47.:23:51.

Have there been assessments made that would indicate yes, we believe

:23:51.:23:55.

this breach of security requires action to be taken or is it just a

:23:55.:24:00.

general yeah, there may be a threat, but it doesn't war Anthony specific

:24:00.:24:06.

response. I'm not asking you to name anybody. As you'll expect I've

:24:06.:24:10.

taken advice on what to say on this because I don't do the assessment.

:24:10.:24:15.

The advice is that it would not be advisable to give details of where

:24:15.:24:20.

they've gone. I want to say, however, if there is action

:24:20.:24:28.

required, it will be taken as the minister has directed. Mr Wells?

:24:28.:24:34.

You didn't do very well on this one, did you? First of all Mr Rogers,

:24:34.:24:39.

can I say I can spot when someone is trying to hide when someone is

:24:40.:24:44.

trying to hide an embarrassing fact. I've been in this business for 30

:24:44.:24:50.

years. You don't want to tell us something. That's why you are

:24:50.:24:53.

hiding behind that about security measure. The chairman is not asking

:24:53.:25:00.

you to reveal anything. We -- he doesn't want to point the finger.

:25:00.:25:06.

He wants to know has someone been so alarmed by something that has

:25:06.:25:12.

happened and have the police been equally alarmed that action has

:25:12.:25:17.

been taken. I ask the question again: Has there been anyone out

:25:17.:25:22.

there, no name mentioned or locality, whose personal security

:25:22.:25:27.

has been compromised by this debacle that urgent action had to

:25:27.:25:30.

be taken? If you refuse to answer that again, the committee can draw

:25:30.:25:35.

its own conclusions. I'm not able to answer that question. Are you

:25:35.:25:42.

not able or not willing? I think it would be inadvisable for me to

:25:42.:25:47.

answer it because I am trying to protect the security of the

:25:47.:25:51.

individual. Why would giving that information compromise the security

:25:51.:25:57.

of anyone. It's a long standing principle in dealing with security

:25:57.:26:01.

matters, if you confirm in one case that security is breached, in

:26:01.:26:06.

another case you are not going to confirm and by a process of

:26:06.:26:12.

elimination you confirm which each is. Out of 183, you would have to

:26:12.:26:20.

be a genius. I'm operating on advice. Don't mess with Jim wells.

:26:20.:26:23.

Foreign visitors to Stormont are not usual. This week we have more

:26:23.:26:26.

than our fair share. Some of our politicians have been on their

:26:26.:26:33.

travels too. Some of the people involved in the peace process here

:26:33.:26:38.

and leading up to the Good Friday Agreement are in the Basque country

:26:38.:26:42.

today? Yes, there have been ongoing contacts between politicians from

:26:42.:26:46.

here and in the Basque country for some time. We had a former senior

:26:46.:26:50.

civil servant here appointed to the monitoring commission, monitoring

:26:50.:26:55.

the ETA ceasefire. A big occasion at the start of this week with

:26:55.:27:00.

Gerry Adams, Bertie Ahern and Jonathan Powell all in the Basque

:27:00.:27:05.

country calls for ETA, the separatist group there, to

:27:05.:27:08.

difintively abandon violence, to disband in the expectation that ETA

:27:08.:27:12.

will come up with the goods on that and that the Spanish government,

:27:12.:27:16.

they hope, will then respond positively. What are you hearing so

:27:16.:27:22.

far? Certainly Bertie Ahern has spoken along those lines, made that

:27:22.:27:29.

call. If this comes off, I suppose, it would be seen as the most

:27:29.:27:31.

difintive example of the local peace process here being exported

:27:31.:27:36.

somewhere else. They talk about it in the Basque country as the Irish

:27:36.:27:40.

peace process. Apart from being of interest internationally, it's part

:27:40.:27:43.

of a growing cottage industry here, that we witness at Stormont. People

:27:43.:27:48.

are coming here, trying to learn lessons from what's happened here.

:27:48.:27:52.

We've had visitors from the Middle East, Columbia, looking at the

:27:53.:27:57.

diary this week, we have Americans tomorrow. On Wednesday, we have

:27:57.:28:04.

leaders from Nagaland, which is an area in north eastern India where

:28:04.:28:09.

they have a long ethnic dispute. They're trying to see if they can

:28:09.:28:13.

learn lessons. That's kept politicianed and political

:28:13.:28:18.

commentators on their toe. Another contender for the SDLP leadership

:28:19.:28:25.

set out his stall today? Yes, but the SDLP involved in the ongoing

:28:25.:28:30.

election. Alastair McDonnell was saying this is the last opportunity

:28:30.:28:34.

to stop the terminal decline of the party as some might see it. He

:28:34.:28:41.

launched his manifesto earlier on today. Tomorrow, we have Alex

:28:41.:28:46.

Atwood, setting out why he believes he should be leader. Colin McDevitt

:28:46.:28:50.

set out his campaign last weekend. He was talking then about

:28:50.:28:53.

renegotiating the Good Friday Agreement, maybe leading towards

:28:53.:28:56.

opposition. Still I think the bookies think that the man to be

:28:56.:29:04.

beaten is the man would declared first of all. Fiona, we talked

:29:04.:29:07.

about rural schools tonight, is there a difference between poverty

:29:07.:29:14.

in rural areas and in cities? in rural areas the costs, the more

:29:14.:29:19.

isolated the areas, the cost would increase. The cost of basic things

:29:19.:29:29.
:29:29.:29:30.

like food and transport and fuel are increased. What the Government

:29:30.:29:35.

must do, what Stormont must do, is do an impact assessment to see how

:29:35.:29:40.

this affects the most vulnerable, these decisions and to look at

:29:40.:29:45.

alternatives. As I was listening to the discussion, I was very aware

:29:45.:29:50.

that Stormont is now imposing cuts that will impact the most

:29:50.:29:56.

vulnerable in society. What we need is alternatives to ensure that we

:29:56.:30:00.

don't go back to the dark days of the conflict that poverty is not an

:30:00.:30:04.

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