21/06/2011 Stormont Today


21/06/2011

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Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Here at Parliament Buildings, MLAs

:00:28.:00:33.

have never had it so good, but the bon homie among old enemies isn't

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being felt on the ground just streets away. MLAs were dismayed

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about the violence that erupted at the Short Strand interface. There

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is one community with two sections down there this morning, which is

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broken. In the frontline of that riot, in the buffer zone, were a

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row of pensioners cottages. David Ford, the Justice Minister, is

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fighting the lawyers, who will win this battle of wits? So, there's no

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compromise in terms of changing the rates. There is no way David Ford

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with the stroke of a pen could give solicitors an barrister what is

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they want. This time last night we were discussing the glory of Rory

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McIlroy's win at the US Open. That's now been overshadowed by the

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shame of violence in East Belfast. Extra police were drafted into the

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Short Strand area tonight and after the most serious rioting in years,

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which included shots being fired last night. The UVF has been blamed

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for orchestrating events. This morning, members were quick to

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condemn the rioting. For me the sight of homes wrecked, on both

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sides of the Newtownards Road in the Short Strand and people lying

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injured in hospital this morning, for me it's a sad reminder of how

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fragile the peace is in East Belfast. Could I say this morning

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we want to convey our thoughts and prayers to those people liing in

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hospital this morning. I was down there last night, after I had been

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in the Assembly until 9.30pm. I was late there last night. I went to

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some of those homes in Duke Street and Newtownards Road that had been

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attacked. I was down there this morning, in Strand Walk houses were

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attacked this morning. Both communities suffered. For me, I

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suppose, it reminds me of a proverb which talk abouts hope defered

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maketh the heart sick. I felt all our hopes for, let's get this peace

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embedded into the local communities, that our our hopes had been placed

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on hold in many ways. There is one community with two sections down

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there this morning which is broken, hurt and damaged. There is

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resentment. There is a silent cry for help. There is a belief that

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no-one cares. Or that no-one can do anything to change or prevent a

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course of events. It was a reminder of everything we have worked so

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hard to try and put behind us. We must accept it, as a collective

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failure. I do not think that it is good enough to try and reduce the

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issues at the heart of what is still happening in some communities

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to the responsibility of a few. It is the responsibility of us all.

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use this platform this morning to ask those involved, with the

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senseless violence we saw last night, to stop. It was organised

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and orchestrated violence we saw is unjustifiably. It's

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unrepresentative. It's destroying the cross community peace-building

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and community development work that has happened in the area. And, it's

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completely wrong that people in this area should be living in fear

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and terror at the hands of a small minority at the moment. I also

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caught up with Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey on the issue. He has been

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meeting police in recent weeks about his own concerns. Well, I

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think, it's been quite clear, throughout the day, that what

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happened last night was the UVF inspired attack on the Short Strand

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community. We have been given a variety of reasons for that.

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Whether it's disenchantment within that organisation or that

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particular bit of the community. Other attacks in the area in recent

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times, what is clear, there is no justification for what was a UVF-

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led attack in that community last night. I think people are very,

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very sorely disappointed that, despite the great work that has

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gone on there in the last couple of years, in the interface level, that

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we had a return to the bad old days. There was violence from a

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nationalist side. Who is behind that? We know clearly, the PSNI

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will confirm this and other organisations, people do

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acknowledge that the UVF inspired that attack last night. It was an

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attack on the community in the Short Strand last night. That went

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on for a number of hours. It resulted for the most part the

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loyalisted -- loyalists and the PSNI. You need to be clear that

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that violence was wrong and the defence of the area was a matter

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for the police? Well, what I'm saying is that nobody left the

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Short Strand last night to go out and attack a another district. That

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is very clear. You are condemning the violence from both side?

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condemning the violence that took place in that area last night. That

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is not a question of one side is as bad as another. There has been

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anti-social behaviour in that area. There has been sectarian

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squirmishing in that side much I condemn people from the loyalist

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and national and republican side who have been working together, it

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canly over the past two years, who reduced a serious interface area

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down to a periodic antisocial type rioting on a small scale. Albeit,

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that those incidents do affect homes on both sides of that

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community. All of which I condemn much my party, throughout the past

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year, has been given names of individuals from the Short Strand

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to the PSNI, people who have been attacking Protestant homes and who

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have been involved in persistent anti-social behaviour. We have been

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working with the PSNI with representatives of the loyalist

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community to bring that interface to a greater sense of normality to

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the residents on both sides. What happened last night was a UVF

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attack on that community. There can be no rational nor justification

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for that. What can be done about it? Is it a matter solely for the

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police, is Sinn Fein willing to engage in dialogue to ensure it

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doesn't happen again? We need to move from last night, obviously,

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from today onwards to make sure there is no repeat of this. Clearly,

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community relations in that area have been set back, I think,

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considerably. All stops now have to be - make sure - we need to make

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sure there is nothing left unturned there to make sure we don't have a

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repeat of last night. I think the Lord Mayor, who is a Short Strand

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representative, hosted a meeting in the city council today with all of

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the o other parties, senior officers of the council, they

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agreed on a certain course of action, which includes bringing

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together the people who work at interface level to refocus their

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minds and make sure community res can be repaired and make sure there

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is no repeat of this. We had meetings with the PSNI today. We

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met other parties within the last hour half. A lot of work has gone

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on today to make sure communities can be settled. That communities

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can be protected from this type of behaviour again. Do you think the

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absence of the PUP from Stormont, has that destabilised loyalism?

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There is no question or doubt in my mind shall I said this repeatedly,

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if you look at working-class unionist and Protestant areas, a

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lot of those communities will complain of being abandoned by the

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mainstream political parties in those communities. And, I mean, I

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myself, have had a positive experience in areas where I've been

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able to work with communities in there, whether it be on housing and

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making representations on their behalf. I hear from those people

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they have felt abandoned by the mainstream parties. All that being

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said, it's not either a justification to go and attack the

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Catholic district in the social services because you feel alienated

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from the main traem stream political parties or government. I

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recognise there are people in unionist working-class communities

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who have been ill served by the political process for a long number

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of years. That has to stop. That one of the calls today, both in the

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Assembly here this morning and in our meetings with the OFM and DFM

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this afternoon much I want to see political unionism engaging with

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those people. To aidentify if they do have grievances, what they are

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those grievances. They need to be given support. I want to make it

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clear, Wyles all that has to be done, there is no justification for

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attacking the community because you are aggrieved at something else.

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David Ford was facing questions today and on a topic very close to

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some members' hearts, the ongoing dispute with lawyers over legal aid.

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During the session he made it clear the new fees were now in force and

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he was not for turning. In a moment, I will get reaction from the Head

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of the Bar Council, Adrian Colton. Here is Simon Hamilton on his feet.

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Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for his spobs

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response. -- response. In trying to seek an alternative way forward,

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cot Minister tell us, has he considered the idea of maybe

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instigating something like a US- style public defenders office? If

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in examining that if he considered how easy that might be to do?

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I think Mr Hamilton for that question. The answer is, yes, I am

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at the moment considering all options to ensure defendants have

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access to justice. It is my hope, it has been my effort, to date, to

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ensure that defendants obtain solicitors and barristers under the

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usual arrangements prepared to work at the new legally enforced rates

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of remuneration. I could seek to invite solicitors and barristers

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from outside Northern Ireland to make themselves available to take

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on that crown court work on the same basis that applies. We have

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had interested indicated without seeking it from some firms of

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solicitors in England and Wales, who are keen to work here. Another

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option would be for the legal services commission to arrange for

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legal advice and representation to be provided directly to

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unrepresented defendants. Mr Hamilton referred to a US-style

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public defender system. That might create concerns about the quality

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of justice. It is something which already operates successfully in

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England and Wales, in part. The legislation is already in place,

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under the As access to Justice Northern Ireland Order for the

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legal services commission to directly engage, should they so

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wish to do it, and should that be necessary to ensure access for

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justicies for defendants. It's unhelpful for the Minister to adopt

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an uncompromising approach in relation to this problem. I think

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it is better that the Minister reopens discussions with both the

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Law Society, and, indeed, the Bar Council, to see if there is some

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basis of reaching a compromise, as Mr McNarry pointed out, on the

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basis of their proposals which were, in fact, verified - Question.

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being within budget. The Deputy Speaker, I fear he hasn't

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appreciated the point which I tried to make. The new regulations are in

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force. This Assembly Assembly has accepted the new rates of

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remuneration. To suggest I'm uncompromising is completely out

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with the mark. The simple position is, proposals were put forward by

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the Department, accepted by the Committee, not rejected by the

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Assembly, therefore, have the force of law. There is no compromise that

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can be made about those rates. The compromise is, that I have offered

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an early review, when we see how the current arrangements work, when

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we see if there are particular anomalies, I have engaged with the

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Law Society and the Bar Council, I have offered them that. I asked my

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officials to engage in detail with them. That is the compromise. The

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compromise is not somehow to suggest that I should accept a

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proposal which game from the two professional bodies which was

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uncosted, could not be costed, and would have significantly exceeded

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the budget available for legal aid, with the result there would have

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been costs pressures being met by other aspects of the public

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expenditure in Northern Ireland, which I believe deserve equal

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priority. I suspect there are a few members of this House who would

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wish to see us shifting funds from the budget from health and social

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services into the funding of legal aid when Northern Ireland will

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still have the most generous system in western Europe. Well, the

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Justice Minister show nos sign of backing down over legal aid

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payments to barristers and solicitors. While eight local firms

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are willing to work the new fees, the majority in the professor are

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refusing cases. Leaving more than 250 defendants without

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representation. Adrian Colton, Chairman of the bar council is with

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me to defend his stance. What is the problem here? You heard the

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Minister say, the most generous system in western Europe? I don't

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accept. That we asked him to produce the figures from which that

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assertion is based. The answer is a references to per Capita depargs

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with England and Wales. We asked for, what would be more relevant

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comparison would be with the north- east of England or some of the

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regions in England which would be comparable with Northern Ireland.

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The real problem is this, we do not want to end up with a system in the

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crown court that we have in England and Wales. That is what this

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dispute is about. It's about whether we can create a system of

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justice in which the public will have confidence? Does the Minister

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know what is happening in England and Wales? First and second year

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barristers are being sent out, on the morning of serious criminal

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trials to represent people much we Your council's own comparisons show

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that Northern Ireland are sometimes cheaper than England and Wales but

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sometimes your figures are disingenuous. A don't accept that.

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The reason we picked her up -- but that Fagin in the public domain was

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to show... Critics it say she wanted more for every case and your

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:15:19.:15:19.

proposal for example theft under �30,000,... It is your own proposal.

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While I am looking for more money? We want a system that will come

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within budget and it must be remembered that we have never ever

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challenged the Budget that is available. What we are asked to do

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was to come up with proposals that would come within that budget.

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Tweeted that. We demonstrated that we could do that but despite that,

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the Minister is insisting on making further cuts and that is what...

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That is the kernel of the dispute. The issue is whether the public has

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confidence. Ferrar those working to work the system. One solicitor who

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was willing to accept the fees has since decided not to. His pressure

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being applied? His solicitor would not be a colleague of mine. But

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this is interesting because what I feared would come to pass has come

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to pass. The very first case that was dealt with under the new

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proposals was... The lawyer in question had not even read the

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quotas. There you have it. They you have the proof of what I want could

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:16:34.:16:34.

happen if this system has left us they it its. The Minister is not

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depriving anyone of a fair trial, he is simply depriving the legal

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profession of faith of more money. The money is not there to enrich

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lawyers. The money that has provided to legal aid is for the

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benefit of members of the public and for victims. The greatest

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service become paid to victims of crime is to ensure we have a

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properly resourced Criminal Justice System, the prosecution a properly

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resourced and the defences properly resourced.

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Is there a budding Patrick Kavanagh as dormant? He is a member who was

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more tours of than Churchill,... Maybe not quite so talented but

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some members did enter the competition and I caught up with

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:17:33.:17:35.

the winners in the long gallery. poem is entitled... It is a

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reference to where I am from and I've made the journey from their

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two here, in front of the Stormont parliament buildings. It was a

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phrase that was used in a newspaper I'll -- article because it told a

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bit about my journey. Are you are delighted because he won a prize?

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I've not had that confirmed yet. There is a rumour going about but I

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have not had it confirmed. I hope I have. I noticed you managed in your

:18:13.:18:23.
:18:23.:18:25.

poem to include a certain word. poem includes certain phrases.

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:18:35.:18:44.

There are many rural references. I love all of the rural places in

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County Tyrone and I have given expression to them in a poem.

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you consider giving up your assembly job and pursue poetry

:18:53.:18:56.

full-time? Why couldn't I do the two things? They could be a

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wonderful synchronisation of politics and poetry through my good

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self. Thank you very much. Years ago, one of the first art

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exhibitions I came to one-eyed come home was by Basil Blackshaw. He had

:19:14.:19:19.

edged it out with a paint brush, broad colour. A thought I would

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have a go myself. This was just an effort and my children said, I

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could do better than that. People always say that about greyed out.

:19:31.:19:41.
:19:41.:19:43.

wish. What were you do with a painting? I will hang it on my wall

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upstairs. It was great fun trying to see if I could do it because

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I've never painted. Most of my family are involved in the art

:19:49.:19:53.

world. It is good to do. It's a very cheerful painting. But I love

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colour, I'll have fun. By run an art gallery as well. I've always

:19:59.:20:09.
:20:09.:20:12.

looked for, in that as well. A of course I should say the poet one...

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Adrian, any opinion on this? Should they stick to their day-job? I am

:20:17.:20:22.

not surprised that there were no one, it was a beautiful painting.

:20:22.:20:27.

As for Barry's poetry, I don't think other poets have anything to

:20:27.:20:33.

fear. I am told that there has been a bid for the poor trade. Danny

:20:33.:20:40.

Kennedy was also fielding questions. He was asked by Sinn Fein about

:20:40.:20:44.

though rail link between Belfast and Londonderry. The original plan

:20:44.:20:47.

for the Colraine it to Londonderry track relay project would have

:20:47.:20:51.

resulted in the completion of their budget by 2013. This was to

:20:51.:20:56.

coincide with the introduction to service of all 20 new trains. The

:20:56.:21:00.

budget, however, approved by the assembly and executive makes

:21:00.:21:05.

provision for the commencement of the track relay in 2014. This

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reflects the capital budget available. That is, �20 million in

:21:09.:21:14.

year for the budget period. It is not possible to start work earlier

:21:14.:21:20.

than 2014 on the main relay for this reason. The project was

:21:20.:21:23.

originally envisaged to take a couple of years, two years to

:21:23.:21:27.

complete. On this basis, I had the project will be completed in the

:21:28.:21:35.

financial year twenties 17. Given that Derry City is to be City of

:21:35.:21:40.

Culture in 2013, would the minister seriously make a case to the

:21:40.:21:44.

executive and find the funding because personally, I find it an

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absolute disgrace at an InterCity service is now going to have speed

:21:48.:21:53.

limits on it, when the public have doubled the numbers. I would appeal

:21:53.:21:58.

to the minister and are attached no blame to him for the neglect of the

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past. I am grateful and gratified to the member for the no blame

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attachment there. I do have ongoing concern but in the current

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financial climate that we find ourselves in, particularly within

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my departmental budget, I have to be honest to the house and say the

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earliest I am able to indicate his, as I have said, 2014. I welcome the

:22:29.:22:38.

fact that the minister... It is the only place in Northern Ireland

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where Orange feet walk without the requirement of... Will the Minister

:22:46.:22:53.

end of the visiting the island ensure that there is progress made?

:22:53.:22:57.

I have been concerned for some considerable period of time were

:22:57.:23:06.

the model... His department needs to show a greater commitment to

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delivering on specific issues which have been raised through the

:23:09.:23:14.

process to date. Well, I am grateful for the supplementary and

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have no intention of off -- forming a concerned residents' groups for

:23:20.:23:30.
:23:30.:23:30.

the puffins, who understand pretty much fly off. That might be

:23:30.:23:34.

something that all of us can to consider. On a more serious note,

:23:34.:23:38.

the final debate here today featured a campaign for Colin

:23:38.:23:42.

Wharton, he is the former UDR soldier was then 30 months in jail

:23:42.:23:47.

in the 1980s, charged with involvement in the murder of Adrian

:23:47.:23:52.

Carroll. The case against him was thrown out when the trial judge

:23:52.:23:55.

deemed that admits isn't -- and admitted he made to please was

:23:55.:24:02.

inadmissible. Complex and traumatic story for the family in the 1970s.

:24:02.:24:07.

Colin's brother Kenneth was one of the limit -- victims of the Kings

:24:07.:24:11.

Mills massacre and the report was officially released today blaming

:24:11.:24:16.

the IRA for the massacre. In the 80s, Colin went on to join the

:24:16.:24:19.

Ulster Defence Regiment and he was arrested for his alleged

:24:19.:24:23.

involvement in the murder of Adrian Carroll in Armagh. He spent about

:24:23.:24:28.

13 months in custody on remand but the case against him was thrown out

:24:28.:24:33.

by the trial judge to deemed an admission that he made to the

:24:33.:24:35.

police was inadmissible. He might have thought that he would have

:24:35.:24:40.

been happy with that but in fact, what he has seen as some double

:24:40.:24:43.

convicted of that which was subsequently released on appeal has

:24:43.:24:47.

gone composition. He's not been able to get compensation. He

:24:47.:24:52.

believes there is a slur against him. He was quite happy though that

:24:52.:24:57.

in this debate, at Stormont today, he did receive support that he felt

:24:57.:25:02.

has moved his campaign for it on. We have the minister for justice

:25:02.:25:12.
:25:12.:25:16.

coming out and saying that I was innocent. I question is why do I

:25:16.:25:19.

have to make a statement? We have backing for him from the Unionists,

:25:20.:25:24.

we had backing from the SDLP and the alliance. David Ford spoke

:25:24.:25:28.

sympathetically about his case. Sinn Fein were notable by their

:25:28.:25:31.

absence during the course of the debates and afterwards Mr Wharton

:25:31.:25:35.

was pretty scathing about Sinn Fein. Police said he met them and lobbied

:25:35.:25:38.

them in person but never heard back from them. This case is a sharp

:25:39.:25:42.

reminder that the past is never far from the present at Stormont.

:25:42.:25:46.

Absolutely. We have of course the King's Mills report of the end of

:25:46.:25:52.

the week. There will be no doubt more controversy into the UDF

:25:52.:25:57.

massacre at a pub in the 1990s. Some might also say that the home

:25:57.:26:00.

activities of the historical inquiries team in relation to the

:26:00.:26:04.

UVF might have been one of the pressure points which contributed

:26:04.:26:08.

to solve that east Belfast trouble that we have seen. This is

:26:08.:26:11.

certainly a case that the past still retains the potential to come

:26:11.:26:18.

back and haunt us in the present. As for Peter Robinson, he once

:26:18.:26:21.

joked that if negotiating was an Olympic event, Northern Ireland

:26:21.:26:24.

could win gold. Sadly, there are no medals to be one in this category

:26:24.:26:27.

but there was an some excitement today when the Sports Minister

:26:27.:26:31.

welcomed the torch from the Games. The torch came to the north. Thus

:26:31.:26:35.

the first time that it came from London. We are trying to use this

:26:35.:26:39.

event and other events happening today to bring some awareness to

:26:39.:26:43.

the fact that there is a deadline for 29th June for people to become

:26:43.:26:48.

Torch bearers. We need at least 600 people, north. Ordinary people who

:26:48.:26:54.

do extraordinary things, nominate someone, 150 words about bearing

:26:54.:27:03.

the church for the UN pigs. Is this is the actual tort? It is the

:27:03.:27:13.
:27:13.:27:14.

actual tort. The it has come here... I saw the SDLP posing with it, I

:27:14.:27:20.

posed -- I saw you posing with it. This is going to be the start of a

:27:20.:27:27.

series of events. Political parties, communities, people representing

:27:27.:27:31.

communities are going to come together to raise the profile of

:27:31.:27:37.

the northern part of the island. Hopefully they will use whatever

:27:37.:27:40.

influence and connections they have to nominate could become torch-

:27:40.:27:50.
:27:50.:27:51.

bearer us. what about yourself, Adrian?

:27:51.:27:56.

Peter Robinson says politicians here occurred enter an Olympic

:27:56.:28:01.

event for negotiations. What about this issue of legal aid? When I

:28:01.:28:04.

heard and was reminded about Peter Robinson's remarks, it struck me

:28:04.:28:09.

that perhaps during the discussions we had, some and LA's could have

:28:09.:28:12.

been beneficial in that process and we wouldn't have ended up in the

:28:12.:28:15.

crisis we have. Seriously, there has to be compromise. We have a

:28:15.:28:19.

crisis, it has to be resolved. minister says he has compromised.

:28:19.:28:25.

The money is not there, ministers are agreed that it is the lawyers.

:28:25.:28:31.

The money is there and what we need a proper robust scrutiny of the men

:28:31.:28:34.

-- of the issue. That is all from Stormont. We are

:28:34.:28:38.

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