23/10/2012 Stormont Today

Welcome to Stormont Today. The Justice Minister makes clear his

stance on the age of criminal responsibility.

I agree with the majority of those who responded to the public

consultation that ten is too young to be dealt with the weight of a

Criminal Justice System. Talking tough, the Finance Minister

warns he is no push over when it comes to the press. I expect that

people will not treat you with kid gloves, but I do not expect and

will not allow people to wilfully walk over the top of me.

The Justice Minister, David Ford told MLAs that he is committed to

pressing the case for a rise in the age of criminal responsibility.

While briefing members on the implementation of a review of youth

justice, Mr Ford says he recognises the majority of the House is

against a rise, but stressed that the evidence does support a change.

The report provides a blueprint for the transformation of our youth

justice system. It is the view of those who responded to the public

consultation. It is my intention to see it implemented over the next 18

months in line with the commitment I have made in the programme for

Government. I am today publishing an implementation plan to give

effect to that commitment and to demonstrate publicly that I intend

to see this agenda through. My department is pressing ahead with

matters that lie within my ambit. I have announce that had the

Woodlands Centre will be the sole detention for juf juveniles. I am

pleased to report today there are no juveniles head at Hyde bank

Young Offenders Centre. No statement on the review of youth

justice will be complete without making mention of the one

contentious recommendation, raising the minimum age of criminal

responsibility to 12. Personally, I agree with the majority of those

who responded to the public consultation that ten is just too

young to be dealt with by the weight of a Criminal Justice System.

Medical research on brain development, and social policy

research on the negative impact of criminalising young children, tells

us we should seek non-criminal injunctions for the small number of

children in this age group who offend. A mining ort in this House

is not -- a minority in this House is not persuaded. I am committed to

pressing the case for an increase. Perhaps with safeguards to allow

for the rare case of a very serious offence, by a child under the age

of 12 to be addressed. This arrangement has been operating

without difficulty in the Republic of Ireland for the past six years.

I welcome the fact that he recognises his efforts to increase

the minimum age isn't going to happen in terms of it moving from

ten to 12 and that will allow us to focus on what are important issues.

It will be for the judiciary to decide whether someone has

committed an offence within that age bracket and we shouldn't

frustrate them in their efforts to protect society. I am not sure that

the statement recognised there wasn't going to be a raise in the

minimum age of criminal responsibility. Including

highlighting the issue where the most serious offences are exempt

from the change in the Republic of Ireland a lesson was in line with

what was suggested by by some Unionist members.

In relation to the criminal age of responsibility, how the criminal

age of responsibility in Northern Ireland currently compares with

that in other European countries and what further work he thinks is

needed in that issue? The issue of minimum age of criminal

responsibility within Europe is wider than the brief I have with me,

but I can say that at ten the minimum age of criminal criminal

responsible in Northern Ireland is very much at the lower end by

European standards. I believe in Scotland it is 12, with

consideration being given to increase. It is ten in England and

Wales and it has been increased six years except for the most serious

offences in the Republic. The most important thing is we get a minimum

age of responsibility which is consistent with what we understand

about the developments of young children in a way which is

meaningful. The minister is a great advocate of

the processes and the architecture of this House. Being such, why

therefore, is he so intent on trying to sub vrt the reality --

subvert that there is not the support for his foolish notion of

increasing the minimum age for criminal responsibility? Why waste

time and effort on a proposal which is stillborn.

I am not sure whether it is in order to accuse a minister of

seeking to subvert the processes of the House. I think the evidence

which shows my engagement in this House and the committee is anything,

but. I am joined by the Chief Executive

of Opportunity Youth which supports a rise in the age of criminal

responsibility. Why do you think it is important that the age goes up

from ten in Northern Ireland? we are not in line with Europe.

Where the age would be around 14, 15. The Republic of Ireland and

Scotland have already raised the age to 12 and England and Wales are

soon to look at it. Children are ten, is a child, you know, they are

young children. It is very, very rare in Northern Ireland for a

child of that age to perpetrate a serious crime. So why not raise it?

There is no negative evidence to show that raising the age of

responsibility will cause any issues. The evidence is there. As

David Ford put forward today very well and as an organisation we are

disappointed they did not get the support.

The fear in some quarters if you move the age up from ten to twelve

or fourteen, what you are doing is giving carte blanche to children

younger than the age that is decided upon to be criminally

irresponsible? That's the danger, isn't it? We have to look at the

evidence that we have. There is, in Northern Ireland, very, very few

children commit serious criminal offences. We have to remember these

are children. I mean, I am sure your ten-year-old and many out

there ten-year-olds are tucked up in their bed looking forward to

Christmas. We have to look at these children and we need to be

protecting them. If you could pick a figure, what

would that figure be? The minister talked about 12. Would you agree

with him or not? We would be satisfied with 12. It would be

progress, but we would like to see that the age responsibility was in

line with the rest of Europe. Some of the most safest places in Europe,

the limit is 15. And I mean, we are actually criminalising our children.

We need to be looking in Northern Ireland why we are insisting that

the age of criminal responsibility is is ten? Why young people of this

age, children and young people of this age would be perpetrating

serious crimes. What's the answer to that question?

The answer to that question is quite broad. I mean there are

poverty issues. There are dysfunctional issues within our

society. That is not supporting children and young people. We need

to look at those issues broadly and it is not just an issue for the

Department of Justice, it is across Government.

Are you also saying though this evening that while you would like

to see the figure going up to 12, or 14 or 15, you accept in certain

circumstances a judge would have the discretion to hold a child

under that age still criminally responsible? For example in a

murder or rape case? It would have to be the case. In cases of serious

crime, murder, rape, serious assault, absolutely. It is not

carte blanche. That's not what we put forward in terms of the

consultation paper to the review, but we are clear about not

criminalising ten-year-olds. If it is the case that you you

would be prepared to see a child held criminally responsible for a

serious crime, why would that child not be held criminally responsible

for a less serious crime? We are more interested in why a child of

that age would be perpetrating a crime of that seriousness and it is

very rare. We have to get across to the public that it would be very,

very rare for that to happen. Quickly, the minister said today

that he knows he won't have the support support within the assembly

to raise the age from ten to 12. will continue to lobby the minister

and continue to lobby the other political parties. This is an issue

and a debate we would like to see continuing.

We will see if that does happen. Thank you very much indeed for

coming in. The viral minister has told MLAs he

will consult on reducing fees for renewing planning applications. The

minister said he wants to ensure that that planning opportunities

are not lost to the recession for bankruptcy. The minister made clear

his opposition to new European regulation on vehicle licensing.

You are a big supporter of the European Union. And why wouldn't I

be given their contribution to this part of the world and to peace in

Europe and notably a Nobel Peace Prize and therefore, I would like

to see us build and deepen a relationship with Europe, but these

particular proposals in my view cross a line that the EU when it

comes to our own jurisdiction and to our own road worthiness is lying

best not crossed. Would the minister agree this

matter is typical of the EU, attempting to enforce a nonsense

nonsense policy on its member States and would the minister agree

that decision of this matter should be with our own Government?

Well, I don't agree with the member. This is typical of decisions of the

European Union. We are within days and hopefully within touching

distance of the European Union through the SEUPB releasing 22

million euros, �17 million, why? To build infrastructure on this island.

Could I bring the subject back to this hair-brained proposal from

Brussels. Brussels will never win the common sense prize for regular

regulations such as this which would seek to introduce... Can we

have a question, please. The burden of MOTting farm

machinery. Does the minister have any idea what the cost would be to

the farming community and to the department in admin straighting

such nonsense? As I indicated, the cost of this never mind the policy

implications of this in my view are disproportionate and extravagant to

the proposal of any proposing coming forward. It will mean that

more money invested in resources and technical machinery in order to

conduct the assessments. It could mean in respect of some vehicles

that they have to have the parts at the time of manufacture. The cost

in my view for the owner and for the State is extravagant and

excessive. Has the minister considered

dezoning development land in areas where there are high numbers of

unfinished housing developments? Well, I am pleased to hear that

suggestion because it has not come on my radar before and I will take

that into krltion because -- consideration because we are

looking in these circumstances that the member indicated, what do we do

where there are development opportunities for example, that are

about to run out of time? So at the moment we are we are about to go

and consult and this is within the next number of days around

introducing, reduced fees for planning applications to be

extended beyond the original lifetime of the approval namely

five years in a way to demonstrate that at the moment there will be a

lot of planning approvals that will go nowhere because of the recession,

lack of money, bankruptcy and so on, so forth. Are there opportunities

to aid development going forward by reducing the fees for renewal of

planning approvals in a way that will keep the approvals live,

especially if they are of great value, in a way that will plan for

the time after a recession. The Environment Minister. Next, the

gloves are off in Question Time as Sammy Wilson warns he won't be

walked over by the press. But first the pension minister gives a

warning about why Northern Ireland must meet the reform date.

To keep in line with the equivalent schemes in the rest of the United

Kingdom or in GB. Despite having made that decision I have been

attelt to go persuade my colleagues in the executive to agree to

legislative motion which would would enable the the Pension Bill

to give effect to those reforms in Northern Ireland. Only if we do it

in that way, can we avoid first of all falling behind the introduction

of the pension reforms in the rest of the UK and more importantly,

avoiding the very, very serious financial consequence that is there

would be if we do fall behind the deadline of April 2015.

This is a big challenge for Sinn Fein on this. Is are they prepared

to face up to the financial challenge if we do not deliver this

on time and I have got to say to this House that just as we have had

the issue of Welfare Reform and the way in which members on the other

side have tried to despite all of the evidence staring them in the

face, tried to hold up the Welfare Reform with all of the financial

consequences on that, Sinn Fein are doing the same on pensions, despite

the fact they have agreed that we will follow the GB pension

arrangements which are going through Westminster at present.

Could you outline how the uptake of the new retail tenants compares

with previous years when empty retail concessions were not in

place? Well, again, I don't have the exact

figures for that. What I can say is that despite the recession the the

no matter which band you look at, the occupation of premises has

remained steady, even though there has been the recession and I

suspect many of the rates concessions have enabled us to keep

that level of occupancy at the rate at which it is.

Everyone knows in this House I seek to keep good relationships with my

friends, my enemies, those who abuse me and those who praise me.

However, on occasions when I believe that there has been wilful

wrongdoing then I think it is right for any minister to impose whatever

sanction they believe is necessary. And about a year ago, the Press

Association ran a story which was totally without foundation, which

they made no attempt to check, which even after they have been

given the facts still stuck by their story, I don't believe that

it would have been reasonable in a situation like that for me to have

ignored what had been done and therefore, I made it clear that

they would not get any co-operation from me or from my department. That

situation existed until I met with Derek Henderson from the Press

Association. He made a plea to have the situation changed. He made an

polling, privately, not not prepared to do it publicly, but I

accepted that and the situation was resolved a number of weeks ago, but

let me make it clear that as a minister, I expect that people will

not treat you with kid gloves, but I do not expect and will not allow

people to wilfully walk over the top of me and even when that

involves ignoring the facts. Snool I am tempted to ask the

minister how many in each of those categories, who are friends and

whoever else. I am just wondering if he reported the issue to the

Press Complaints Commission and what was their response? I did

report the matter to the Press Complaints Commission. The Press

Complaints Commission upheld my objection to the story and asked

for a retraction of the story. That was slow in coming which

contributed to the way in which the matter was handled. I thought the

member, I am glad he didn't, but I thought the member was start

criticising me for my attitude to the press. I am glad he didn't go

down that line because I would have had great fun had he done so.

Sammy Wilson. The row between Mr Wilson and the Press Association

was sparked by an incorrect story claiming the minister had been

involved in blocking a party. Mr Henderson said it was another

example of the tensions which exist from time to time between the media

and local politicians. Cross-border education was on the

agenda today as MLAs discussed a Sinn Fein motion.

I want to propose this motion, a motion which is all about removing

barriers which prevents students from the north from gaining

admission to universities, colleges, and institutes of technology in the

rest of the island. And of course, vice versa the problem of students

from the south not being able to gain admission to universities in

the north or gain relevant information appropriately. In

proposing this motion I am conscious of a lot of young people

who have experienced really an obstacle course of hurdles put in

their way when they tried. Perhaps the member would have been best

passing this motion on to his counterparts in the south who could

have debated it in the the the Irish Parliament.

Education and opportunities taking place on an east, west dimension as

well as as well as on a north and south basis. Unfortunately, this

motion fails to reflect that with a proposal being so narrow minded he

chose only to deal with obstacles. This is one of the reasons why I

cannot and will not be giving my support to the motion.

To me, it was a half hearted approach to north and south co-

operation. North and south was mentioned in the same breath as co-

operation with Europe and the rest of the world. To me, the way ahead

must be a multinational approach. Further education and schools work

with the executive taking the lead. The Department of Education must

collaborate with the Irish Department of Education and skills

to ensure obstacles to cross-border education provision are minimised

and will not be an impediment. It is said that our amendment was

not pick up. So we did include Scotland, and England and Wales. I

fear from my speech last week on education that certain people

expect me to be paranoic. I would look forward to seeing this motion

coming forward so that it includes everyone.

He He remain committed to ensure that students from here continue to

have a free choice of academic institution, whether local in Great

Britain or in the Ireland or elsewhere. I recognise the

important role played by all students in contributing to the

multinational atmosphere of come of campuses throughout Northern

Ireland. Any opportunities to increase student mobility should be

considered. As part of this, I am committed to ensuring that any

barriers to cross-border collaboration and mobility are

addressed. This is not about favouring student flows in one

particular direction over another. The motion was passed with 52

members voting yes and 28, voting Barry McElduff is with me.

Did you miss a trick here in focusing only in north and south

relations as far as education is concerned and not looking at the

real difficulty students here have in following educational third

level degrees across the water?. support choice, you know. Whatever

the young person, whatever is in the best educational interests of

the young person is what I'm supporting. This debate wasn't

narrowly focused because it is based on evidence coming from a

specific report which was commissioned by the CBI on

obparticularicals to -- obstacles. A similar report hasn't been

carried out east and west. I am reacting to that report. That

report is startling. There is an obstacle course of obstacles and

barriers in the way of young people accessing the universities and

courses of their choice on the island of Ireland.

Does it suggest there is a partitionist mentality on the part

of southern institutions? They don't need them in the sense they

have the numbers already in the 26 counties. You could say that it is

partitionist. Some of the of the universities down south are

demonstrating appetite and hunger for the future. One of them is

Dublin City University, coming to north and talking to people about

enhancing their opportunities. Yes, there is work to be done with the

independent republics which are universities, but there are

obstacles in the way of young people at Government level as well

for example. For example, in the whole business of entry

requirements. They put the bar too high, do you accept that? They

don't value our A-levels as well as they ought to? That's one of the

points in the report and it is one the points I made today. It is

wrong to believe that a leaving certificate examination in the

south is worth two-thirds of an A- level. It would be more proper to

be valued at half an A-level. Children in the Republic do seven

or eight leaving cert exams, here, people do three or four A-levels.

You have got to compare like with like? It is onerous to expect a

young person to achieve four A star to get into the high demand courses,

pharmacy, dentistry and law. It is shutting the door.

How do you persuade the powers that be down south? Here are people in

Dublin and elsewhere in the Republic involved in the

institutions who don't agree with you and seem to want to do

everything they can to stop students from here going down there.

High quality, high flying students who would add to the education

experience of everybody if they were at Trinity and UCD? That's the

point I'm making. We want the central admissions office and UCAS

to be more streamline. It is like pulling hen's teeth to get careers

advice about options down south. The CA O and the UCAS, I would like

to know who is their Chief Executive. We have asked for them

to come before the employment and learning committee and

interestingly today, the motion was passed, the Sinn Fein motion was

passed with the support of the of the SDLP, it was the DUP and Jim

Alistair had a reflex action. This is the same DUP who are active

participants in the north and south inter-parliamentary association.

This is about making sure that there is a proper cross-

fertilisation of students on the island of Ireland.

Can you maybe it better? Yes. It is all about holding to account CAO

and UCAS and the employment and learning committee, we have asked

for them to come before us sooner rather than later.