24/01/2017 Stormont Today


24/01/2017

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Hello, and welcome to Stormont Today.

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And we're done - the last session of the current

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Assembly has been and gone, and it's anybody's guess

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when the new, reduced intake of 90 MLAs will be here

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Perhaps fittingly, today's highlight was the debate over the very issue

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that contributed so much to the collapse of the

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devolved institutions - the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme.

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But we also heard from the new leader of Sinn Fein

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in the north and her plans for the future.

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The Finance Minister reveals the terms of the public inquiry

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'S there is an urgent need, Mr Speaker, to get to the facts of the

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RHI scheme, to identify negligence, incompetence, alleged corruption and

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abuse and to hold those responsible to account.

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Michelle O'Neill sets out her stall ahead of the election.

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They need to change their attitude. They need to come at the

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negotiations after the election with a really meaningful approach to make

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sure they represent all sections of society.

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And we've saved the best to last - Professor Rick Wilford

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is here with his thoughts on the last day of Stormont.

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It was revealed last week that the Finance Minister

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would call a public inquiry into the Renewable Heat

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But today Mairtin O'Muilleoir put the meat on the bones

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of his plan for the Assembly - announcing who will lead

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the inquiry, when it will start and even,

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The Minister revealed all in the chamber this afternoon.

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I now have in place, Mr Speaker, chair, a retired Lord Justice of

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Appeal,. I'm very pleased he has agreed to lead the enquiry and I

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know he will be unflinching in his pursuit of the truth, unscrupulous

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-- and scrupulous. I've agreed he will be supported by two panel

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members. The team will begin its work on the 1st of February and will

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report as quickly as possible. Openness and transparency will be

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key touchstones for the team. In terms of key requirements I pointed

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to earlier, the investigation will have the power to compel witnesses

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and evidence. Every stone will be turned, there will be no dark

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corners. It will be impartial and objective. It will be tasked with

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getting to the truth of the RHI scheme. I will not interfere in this

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work. It will be entirely independent. There is an urgent

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need, Mr Speaker, to get to the facts of the RHI scheme, to identify

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negligence, incompetence, alleged corruption and abuse, and to hold

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those responsible to account. Can I ask, why the Minister has not

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insisted on a preliminary report so the electorate can go to the polls

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with relevant information on this scandal is to mark why he has not

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confirmed a timeline for publication and also outlined a process for the

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independent appointment of the two panel members referred to in the

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report? Thank you. I know there's an election coming, and I know it is at

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times difficult to appease the unions that I have a memory recently

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of the Ulster Unionist Party wanting enquiry. You got one. Do not

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prejudge the actions. You will act in an impartial and objective

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matter. He will be scrupulous and unflinching. What discussions have

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you had with the chair so far with reference to legal costs and also

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the time frame to ensure the findings can be brought forward as

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soon as possible? I assure the hopes of the member that we will

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expeditiously get a report. That said, these are matters for the

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chair. If I was pressed, I think it would be appropriate for us to have

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a report six months after the enquiry starts. But that, in my

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view, is a matter for the chair. Where will it be held? We don't

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know. I have a desire to see the enquiry held in public session on TV

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and in that regard I know of building whether our committee rooms

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which have TV coverage which can be broadcast. But at the moment the

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decision is continuing. Mairtin O Muilleoir,

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not giving too much away just yet about where he'd like to see

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the inquiry sitting. What do you make of

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it had to be somebody I think somebody from the legal profession

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and I think is a good choice. We don't know yet who will be the two

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fellow panel members. It's no surprise that there will be at least

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three. The venue does not matter. I think what matters are the terms of

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reference. And of course he has been given free rein to give to draw up

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those terms of reference because the act under which it is established

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provides for the Minister to be able to reference -- influence this. The

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key thing is there will be compatibility of witnesses and

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evidence. And if necessary witnesses can be compelled to give evidence

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under oath. I think this will be a no holds barred enquiry. The main

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issue is that it is not going to issue an interim report before the

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election. It is going to be a shadow cast over the election.

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No public sittings until after March second.

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Six months seems to be the target date for it to be

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in a position to report back - is that over-ambitious?

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It could be, because of course the witnesses some of whom will be

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compelled to come and give evidence, they will bring legal teams with

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them and there could be a lot of legal argument. So if they are

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meeting five days a week the six months I think nine is probably more

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likely. All things RHI also

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dominated questions Simon Hamilton told MLAs

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he still hopes to reveal the names of everyone on the scheme,

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despite a judge issuing an interim injunction to prevent

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the publication of hundreds Yesterday one of the assurances you

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gave to the house was in respect of the robustness of your scheme and

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yet this afternoon we learnt that some 300 boiler owners have managed

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to block or thwart your promise to this house and to the citizens of

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Northern Ireland to deliver the names of boiler owners. In those

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circumstances would you publish the names of those others who are not

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currently blocked by the injunction? I very just received the news and I

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haven't seen the full judgment yet. I will consider it in full before

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making any decision. I'm sure you like me wish to have the fullest of

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transparency around the names, that is still my objective. That is what

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I was seeking to do by making the announcement that I did last week.

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We had to run through a process which the department undertook in

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pretty quick time given the volume of work. I signal my intention to

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publish the names inconsistent with the process is laid out. I deeply

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regret the injunction that has been sought and awarded this afternoon,

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because I think in and of itself it prevents full transparency, and

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obviously I will take the time to consider what can now be done in the

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circumstances. As the minister given any thought to publishing an

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anonymous list that could provide some geographical detail, dates and

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payment, so we could get a sense of the level of applicants that are

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credible and the level that are not? Thank you. I think it is asked in

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the appropriate spirit. The whole purpose of doing this was to seek to

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instil better public confidence. He said it was going to be challenged,

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I suppose it was. What I've heard about the judgment is it is not

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permissible to publish the names of members of the association. However,

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I am happy to look and I will look at other options. I think it is

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interesting the member says there is something short of the full

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disclosure which the court is now preventing from happening which may

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help to instil public confidence. That is what I want to do. That is

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what my objective is, and I certainly will look at the option

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which you have mentioned along with others to hope to achieve that

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purpose of maximum transparency with the aim of instilling public

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confidence in the scheme. Is it his own ultimate ambition to publish the

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names and addresses of all participants when they applied and

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if so when does he expect to be able to do so? That is what was my

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publicly stated position, it is the position I stated in writing to

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recipients of the scheme. Because I believe that there was a public

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interest, clear public interest, in having maximum transparency. That

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was my intention. To publish business details and a geographical

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information as well as other information. I still hope to be able

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to do that but obviously I will have to reflect on the judgment that has

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been made. 24 hours after assuming the mantle

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of Sinn Fein's leader at Stormont, Michelle O'Neill sat down

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with our political editor, Mark Devenport, who asked her how

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precisely she'd got the job. It was an appointment by the

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President and I was chosen to lead the party and I am honoured to do

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that. Other parties have elections with candidates and campaigns. Why

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not Sinn Fein? It has its own internal process. They ratified my

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position and I'm very pleased they did. You are obviously now going to

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face interaction which, according to some predictions, will be quite

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brutal. What you see main challengers? The public will have

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their say and we will deal with all the issues but we said we can't

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return to the status quo. We need change and attitude from the DUP. We

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can't tolerate their debts respect for the public. And we can't be part

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of institutions like that. Do you think Arlene Foster is someone you

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can work with? I don't have a choice. If the electorate returned I

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will work with them. But I will only work with them on the basis of

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respect and equality for all citizens. That is the any situation

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where I believe our party can be part of that institution. Would you

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be relaxed about a rate of a long period of direct rule? Others need,

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the negotiations after the election with a real meaningful election to

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want to make sure they represent all sections of society. We seen heavy

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actions of the DUP, things like the decision to remove ?50,000 first

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disadvantaged children to learn Irish. That is petty. For myself, as

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an Irish republican, and for my party, we want to make sure we look

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after all citizens. Not interested in just looking after the needs of

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nationalists and republicans. We are interested in looking after the

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needs of all. We've seen in the past has been a failure by the British

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Government and the Irish Government. To make sure they deliver on the

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presence was the issues identified in previous negotiations. We have

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outstanding issues. We could get the point where there is full and 20 and

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of the agreements that have gone for. That is where we need to be.

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You mentioned legacy. Across the border we have Unionist MPs saying

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there is a witchhunt against former soldiers and they want to

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essentially see that brought to a halt. If there was any move to

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prevent these prosecutions going ahead, what response would you have?

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The Stormont house agreement identified mechanisms to deal with

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this. The British Government are hiding behind the cloak of national

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security. That is not the way to do it. We support truth and justice.

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For everybody that is different full stop some families just want

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information. Someone call cases. It is making sure that we have a range

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of mechanisms which avoided been agreed by the sword and house

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agreement that allows us to get to the truth for all those families.

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Funny, I believe my job is absolutely about trying to heal the

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past to get up place where we deal with the legacy issues.

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Michelle O'Neill talking to Mark Devenport.

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Why is she the right choice from Sinn Fein's point of view?

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I think it represents a generational shift. I think that is important.

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She's also someone without any IRA I gauge and I think that is a plus for

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them. They are seeking to project an image of moving on. And also

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becoming civilian eyes and female friendly. We now have three female

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political leaders in Northern Ireland. She is the third in the

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space of a year. To what extent is she likely to be frankly a junior

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partner in an overarching all Ireland leadership team? I expect

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she brings the status and wait with her. I don't think she is in the

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pocket of Gerry Adams but Sinn Fein work in mysterious ways. She is

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quite clearly not going to step outside the party line on any

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significant issue, so I think she will play an equal role. She is

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junior, so no doubt she has a lot to learn and I think she recognises

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that herself, but it is a fresh face for the party, as they contend with

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another election. OK. We will talk more about that election at the end

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of the programme, thank you. Paul Givan kicked off the last

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round of Ministerial question Bedroom tax mitigation and funding

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for community halls are issues which have loomed large in recent

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weeks for the Minister, The necessary legislation was

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approved by the Assembly on the 16th of January. This legislation gives

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the parliament the necessary powers to make accurate and timely payments

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to the estimated benefit claimants who may be impacted by the

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introduction of the social side sector claimant. They will be paid

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for weeks in arrears and the payments will be made in the current

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financial year. There is a whole range of mitigation measures we have

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had to introduce to implement the welfare in Northern Ireland, the

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bedroom tax being one of them. All the plans were being run through

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according to a proper time frame, in the normal course of the business of

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politics, there was no risk whatsoever of not having in place

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the legislation to mitigate against this. Nobody could have legislated

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against the actions in respect that Sinn Fein had. We have to make sure

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the most vulnerable are not impacted. The community halls

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capital grant pilot programme was launched on the 19th of October 2016

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and closed in November 2016 with 800 applications received and following

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a robust procedure, up to 90 projects were accepted for financial

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assistance. Was it only for Orange halls to apply because I know to

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some of the media seemed to be putting it out there that this was

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some sort of sectarian scheme? Was it available for all of the

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community? May be the Minister could tell us of the organisations which

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will benefit from the scheme? The answer very clearly is absolutely

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not. This programme was opened all types of facilities with a hole

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which is used by the local community, and applications were

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received from church halls, JHA clubs, Masonic calls, community

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groups and many others. I ask this question without any malice, but can

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he understand the way that a number of the funding schemes have ruled

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out, there is a perception from some within our community that the

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decisions are secretary and? I think the very point the member raises, it

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is a perception. Whenever we look at the way the funding was allocated,

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and in terms of the community calls, this was something that whenever I

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was out in the community, people were saying we have a need.

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Applications were being put into a pilot scheme which we recognise

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would be very important to those groups, and so you have the GAA when

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sitting from this, parochial halls within the Catholic Church

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benefiting from this so any suggestion that this in any way had

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a sectarian agenda is completely false and I have Minister had no

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role whatsoever in assessing any of the applications.

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The Communities Minister, Paul Givan.

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Meantime the Health Minister has blamed a breakdown

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in communication for a disagreement between the Belfast Health Trust

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and families of several very sick children, over access

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Yesterday, the BBC revealed that three children who suffer

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from a severe muscle wasting disease - Spinal Muscular Atrophy -

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are waiting to hear if they will receive the drug.

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Clinicians in the Belfast health and social care trust made a clinical

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decision to use the extended access programme to provide this drug in an

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individual case to treat SMA. On this basis, the extension of this

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programme was made on the basis of the clinicians in the Belfast trust.

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I am aware of the concerns of parents with children with SMA. I

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raised concerns with the trust who assured me that urgent action will

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be taken to make contact with families involved. I understand

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direct contact will be made this Thursday and there will be a

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face-to-face meeting with the clinical team in the hospital. Is

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there any assurance that those three children do meet this suitability

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tests, that they will face a very real prospect of getting access to a

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life changing and life-saving drug, given that the health Department

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does not have to pay for the drug and simply provide the theatre space

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and medical staff to administer it. It is not for me to decide who

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should get access to what drug and the trial but obviously, I want to

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make sure that these families who are dealing with very complex

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challenging conditions to make sure they have every support and every

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lifeline possible. I think obviously that has been a breakdown in

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communication and we will need to rectify that problem and that is

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something I have asked the trust to do.

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Michelle O'Neill, who continues until the election in her role

:20:49.:20:51.

A suspect in the case of David Black has had his case reviewed. Last

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year, he was given leave to change his bail so he could go on a three

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day spa holiday. That same individual has now not been seen

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since the 18th of November. There are of course conditions and

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circumstances in which bail should be denied but the course must be

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satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for continued detention

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before a denial of bail can be justified, and there are potential

:21:54.:22:00.

grounds for the denial of bail. Grounds that a defendant may fail to

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turn up for trial, interfere with witnesses and so on. And while this

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case is a bad case and a hard case and there may be others like them,

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we should not draw conclusions about the character of the police and

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criminal justice systems in the way that some of the extravagant

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language has suggested today. I am not going to defend Mr McLauchlan in

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any way, but I do note that his original bail was set in May 2014

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and I can't help thinking, if he had been remanded in custody, we would

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be having a different debate now. When they say all these good things

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to entice Unionists to thinking that a united Ireland would be some sort

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of Utopia, great place to live, when we all realised it wouldn't be, but

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then the very next day they will sound side-by-side with hardliners,

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with placards outside Knock HP. As I have already said to this Assembly

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before, this review is currently underway. It will establish facts

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about the bail decisions in Northern Ireland and I do not want to

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pre-empt the outcome but I would hope we would find a conclusion to

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that in the coming weeks. But it is vital that Northern Ireland has an

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effective framework for bail which properly balances the needs for

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victims and defendants so how have asked for this work to be completed

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as soon as possible. And on this final day

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of the mandate, Steven Agnew brought forward the first sole

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Green Party motion. The motion called for urgent

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legislation to expand the role of the Assembly Commission

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for Standards to allow for investigation into alleged

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breaches of the Ministerial Code. We need an Independent, open and

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transparent process for investigating ministers. I have

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always failed to understand the opposition to this from some in this

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House, but I think given recent events, if the Assembly was to

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oppose this again today, there would be public anger. This would be the

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last decision made by this Assembly. And I would call on members not to

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waste this opportunity, to send a clear signal of the standards of

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accountability we expect of the next Executive. This Assembly has deemed

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this Assembly of good conduct and to be fit for purpose and the

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mechanisms are in place under the Northern Ireland act 1988 to

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correctly deal with any breaches. I have said in several occasions in

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respect of many varying matters, but find myself saying again today that

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bad legislation is worse than no legislation. Even if we were not

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standing on the edge of another election, the call to bring forth

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urgent legislation lacks any understanding of the process

:24:57.:25:00.

involved. The Assembly commission can investigate members of this

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Assembly, then it seems reasonable that a similar process should be in

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place to hold ministers to account. Can you believe this? In the months,

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this is the DUP, why should we have this model to create conditions

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where none exist. Where it is better to have no legislation than bad

:25:27.:25:30.

legislation? Would Pam Cameron explain to people where it is that

:25:31.:25:35.

she sees that where we are trying to create issues where none exist? What

:25:36.:25:41.

will have you been living in?! We don't have openness and transparency

:25:42.:25:45.

about public dealings, then we see at the crease in trust, and if the

:25:46.:25:49.

trust continues to decrease because there are no accountability

:25:50.:25:56.

mechanisms two mechanisms at work, it turned to complete cynicism. Yes,

:25:57.:26:03.

we have a code of conduct, yes, there is a ministerial code, but

:26:04.:26:10.

there is no mechanism to investigate in any Independent sense, whether or

:26:11.:26:16.

not a minister has fallen short of the standards thereby imposed. And

:26:17.:26:17.

that is deliberate. And that motion passed

:26:18.:26:20.

on an oral vote. Let's have a final word

:26:21.:26:22.

with Rick Wilford. Are you expecting the brutal

:26:23.:26:29.

election campaign that Arlene Foster has talked about? Guess, I think it

:26:30.:26:34.

will be pretty bitter. I think we already hear the sound of sectarian

:26:35.:26:41.

trenches being dug. I just want to contrast Jim McAllister. There are

:26:42.:26:47.

so many issues which are overhanging the election, not least the no plan

:26:48.:26:54.

enquiry into RHI, the Irish language act and Brexit which is looming ever

:26:55.:26:59.

larger, and now the Assembly will not have a role. There will not be a

:27:00.:27:04.

legislative consent motion. That was a result of the Supreme Court ruling

:27:05.:27:10.

today. I think it will be bitter. It will be protracted, six weeks. So I

:27:11.:27:15.

am not sure whether we will see any significant changes. A real

:27:16.:27:18.

opportunity for the opposition parties I think because there are

:27:19.:27:22.

some open golf here, not least over RHI, but I think it will be bitterly

:27:23.:27:29.

fought and will leave a lot of people licking their wounds. You

:27:30.:27:34.

have listed a number of areas on the political landscape which are likely

:27:35.:27:38.

to come up on the election campaign, will they be critical? Are those the

:27:39.:27:42.

issues on which people will decide how to vote? Or will it inevitably

:27:43.:27:47.

come down to Orange versus Green? On hopes that this is an occasion when

:27:48.:27:51.

the electorate, and let's hope a greater share of the electorate get

:27:52.:27:59.

out of and vote, bring their rational behaviour and not be pulled

:28:00.:28:03.

into the same old voting of the past. One thing we cannot predict is

:28:04.:28:10.

what Sinn Fein is asking, namely a change in attitude particular yonder

:28:11.:28:15.

part of the DUP. You cannot legislate for that or behavioural

:28:16.:28:17.

change, so goodness knows how long this will be put back together, even

:28:18.:28:22.

if there can be an agreed platform at some stage on a whole raft of

:28:23.:28:24.

policy issues. And that's it for tonight -

:28:25.:28:26.

and for this run of Stormont Today. The Assembly is formally dissolved

:28:27.:28:31.

on Thursday of this week - and then all attention will formally

:28:32.:28:33.

shift to the campaign trail as the parties do battle

:28:34.:28:36.

to keep their numbers up As to what happens after that,

:28:37.:28:38.

it's still anyone's guess - but rest assured, if and when

:28:39.:28:42.

the politicians are back up here on the hill,

:28:43.:28:45.

we'll be here too to bring you full Until then, we'll have full coverage

:28:46.:28:48.

of the unfolding political story, as usual, on The View and on Sunday

:28:49.:28:52.

Politics. For now, though, from everyone

:28:53.:28:54.

in the Stormont Today team, bye-bye.

:28:55.:29:02.

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