25/02/2014 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme. Unionist

outrage as it's revealed the man accused of the 1982 Hyde Park

bombing will not face prosecution. Nobody should be above the law.

Everybody should be subject to the law. It seems that because of a

letter that was sent to this individual, he has effectively

received a get out of jail free card. The Environment Minister says

he believes the 5p levy on paper bags should remain in place. There

is no justification for doing a bags should remain in place. There

unnecessary bag use. I'm joined by Dr Orna Young with her perspective

of another busy day on the Hill. John Downey, the man accused of

killing four soldiers in the IRA bombing in Hyde Park in London in

1982, has walked free from court today. He was revealed that he had

been given an official guarantee he would not face trial it has also

been revealed that another 186 people wanted for Troubles-related

crimes may have received similar assurances. I've been discussing the

cases with our political editor, Mark Devenport. I asked him for the

assessment of the significant of today's development. Certainly the

existence of this scheme was not widely known. There were press

reports that Sinn Fein got some kind of assurance about individuals on

the runs. The notion that there were 187 letters of comfort, this scheme

went on even though the legislation that was meant to deal with on the

runs fell when it came to Westminster will come as a shock to

many politicians here at Stormont. Are two separate issues at work,

aren't there? Yes. Focus on the PSNI's administrative error which

the judge called "catastrophic" checking whether the Metropolitan

Police wanted to interview John Downey about about the Hyde Park

bombing when they found out it was the case not correcting the letter

sent out in his case. That is of great importance to the families of

the victims the judge took it so seriously in relation to this case.

On the wider political scale, if you like, the fact cannot be avoided we

didn't know about the existence of this scheme at all. So, when people

are saying - oh, there shouldn't have been this particular

administrative blunder, there is the bigger political question of whether

the scheme should have existed at all. There has been considerable

political reaction to the development As you would expect,

unionists outraged. The First Minister, Peter Robinson, saying

it's a dark day for justice. Justice should have no sell-by-date.

Republicans saying, look, the arrest of John Downey was completely wrong

in the first place. It was a breach of the commitments that they knew

they had even if the wider public of the commitments that they knew

don't think it makes anything any easier. It possible to say what

happens next? We know that officials will be looking at the letters sent

out to see if there are similar administrative errors. It may be

republicans will get a second letter saying, we can't give you that

assurance. It's possible that this will now provide some kind of

precedent for future cases. I think it will stir once again the

controversies that we visited a couple of weeks ago in relation to

John Larkins call for an end of prosecutions. There was talk of an

amnesty. Unionists saying has there been a back door amnesty any in

case. There has been political fallout from from today's

development we begin with this reaction from the Ulster unionist

MLA Danny Kinahan. Who was a close friend of one of the soldiers killed

in the bomb attack. You think, what's been going on? Is we are told

187 people were getting letters to say that they were no longer wanted.

We discover, if I have it right, they hadn't checked them all. Some

may have been wanted, some don't. We have a clock up we have to find out

what went wrong and find out who is wanted. Families want justice. We

all want justice, at the same time we want to move forward. 187 am

nesties. We effectively have an amnesty. That why Haas and everyone

else want to brush the past under the carpet. That is why they want to

talk about immunity. They know that the dirty deal has already been done

for many of them. They don't want any search light of truth shining

upon it. This judgment opens up that can of worms. I, for one, will make

sure that we do explore more fully to find out such truth as we can of

just how horrendous the skull dug are you was that went on. It's a

black day for justice in the United Kingdom. Of course, nobody should be

above the law. Everybody should be subject

above the law. Everybody should be because of a letter that was

card. That is something that I find offensive. I'm sure a lot of people

in the UK find offensive tonight. Where do you think responsibility

for this situation rests Well, we all know that at the time of the

Belfast Agreement, subsequent negotiation in and around 2000, 2001

there were political machinations in relation to the so-called on the

runs at that time. Reaction is that it was a good decision. Decision

that we were expecting. John Downey should never have been arrested. It

was part of an agreement reached in the Good Friday Agreement. I welcome

the fact he is now released and free to go home. You said it was a result

of a firm agreement with Sinn Fein and the Government? This was part of

the Good Friday Agreement where the on the run, as it is termed, had an

I agreement where they would be clear to go free. Does this mean

that other on the runs are now unlikely to face prosecution? We are

dealing with the John Downey case today. I welcome that decision. The

fact he is now free to go home. That's as far as we can go today.

Sinn Fein's Francie Molloy giving his reaction to Vincent Kearney

outside the court in London earlier today. Back here at Stormont, the

further consideration stage of the Carrier Bags Bill focussed on

whether we should pay for bags made from paper or if they should be

exempt from the current 35 p levy. TUV's Jim Allister began by

explaining why he is pushing for paper bags to be excluded from the

new charge. Ordinary folk in the street find it amazing they are

resent offul of the fact that it's proposed on all paper bags we should

be paying a tax. A paper bag, by its very definition, leaving it outside

on a day like today and where, how long will it be there? It will very

quickly, by virture of soaking up the moisture, disintergrate and

disappear. It's not something akin to, parallel to, alike to a plastic

bag which will withstand the elements for years on end. If paper

bags were to be exempt from the levy, as I said, I worry paper bags

will substitute the single use plastic bags and we will see

millions of paper bags a year being thrown away. Many littering our

streets and countryside. I would be interested in Mr Weir clarify

whether or not the DUP were instrumental in supporting paper

bags. Whether now there is a U-turn by the DUP on that particular

proposition? In response to that, all I can say, I can speak for my

own position, I'm not aware of the DUP having ainsisted on the Paper

Bill, unlike some members in this House who have a full range of

events in that regard they may be able to produce something. I cannot

deny. Quite frankly, the point on this is, I think this is an

opportunity for us to pause and see whether changes are to be made to

make this better. If that means, quite frankly, because the

legislation that was passed through, I appreciate Mr Allister wasn't here

at the time, but in terms of the main parties here, all the parties

passed that. If we got things wrong in 2011 we should be big enough to

admit we got things wrong. If there are changes to be made, which can

improve this, if that means a U-turn, if it means changes in terms

of some of the detail within this, I'm perfectly happy to say that we

should be U-turning because we should be actually providing the

best possible legislation. In relation to parties who have on

committees and brought party positions, when I find it back in

the chamber, you know, those people are contradicting some of the things

that were said. As we look into this whole issue and we thought that the

paper issue, you know, was the better way to go forward in relation

to paper verses plastic, I shouldn't make it a paper verses plastic

issue, to be honest with you, it should be either, it should be about

reusable bags and reusing what you have. I'm happy to see if we got it

right in 2011, if we got it wrong, maybe we did. Mr Weir and the DUP

were supporting the pro-- proposals at that time. He has a right and

were supporting the pro-- proposals at it here today. Obviously, what I

want to ensure is that the wider consumer gets the best deal. That is

irrespective of whether they are purchasing the goods or indeed of

protecting the environment. Because I do believe that the initial

reasons was the protections of the environment to make it more

environmental friendly. The 5p tax seems reasonable. A slight

disincentive for disposal, using a disposable piece of material that

requires so much energy to produce. It's strange I'm being asked this

now. This Assembly has had every opportunity to consider these

issues. This policy, as I've said, has been three years in the making.

It has been agreed by the executive and passed by this Assembly. We have

collectively agreed already a levy on paper bags is justified. There is

no justification for doing a U-turn now. As I have already said, the

policy objective has always been to reduce or eliminate unnecessary bag

use. Whatever materials they are made from. Jim Allister's amendment

wasn't passed. Neither was the DUP's which sought exemptions for hessian

and cloth bags. Members did support an amendment calling on the

department to prepare a report on biodegradable carrier bags, the

motion then passed. The plight of fishermen was touched on during

questions to the agriculture minister today ahead of a meeting

she was to have with them later in the afternoon. Fishermen say recent

bad weather means they are enable to fish their quota allocation. First

up though, yet again, was the issue of Single Farm Payments.

The department set its highest payment target for December 2013 at

85%. Significantly exceeded it by finalising 90% of claims. More

farmers received their single farm payment in December than ever

before. In November 2013 I payment in December than ever

that 95er % of claims including payment in December than ever

end of February 2014. That target has been exceeded. If relation to

the percentage of single farm payment that has not been paid, I

think she talks about a 4% or 5%. The could she tell us what it

represents in terms of real cash, bearing in mind that it's

concentrated in two areas mainly, mainly South Tyrone and North Antrim

Don't have an exact figure. We are talking somewhere at about ?9

million. We are talking about just 3% of Single Farm Payments, ?255

million has been paid out. I'm not dismissing for one moment if you are

in a category waiting to be paid, I understand the feeling you have. We

are, woing around the clock. I give that assurance to anybody waiting

for their payment. Comes around with remarkable regularity. I just wonder

does she engage in discussions before winter months on a pre-plan

basis to say this is what we are going to do rather than the

emergency provisions which she outlined in her earlier answer? I

will go further, winter is every year! I engage, as I said, with the

minister when required and have done in the past. I do welcome the fact

that he has engaged farmers and local contractors to be able to

clear roads, particularly in rural areas. That is something we are

maybe perhaps the gritters and services that are going around the

main roads don't get into the rural areas. I'm keen that is something

that is always expanded upon. In terms of my own department what we

are doing. We have done a range of meetings, particularly preparing for

winter given the winter we have come out of. We have engaged around

winter preparedness. A task force, a range of issues. I can assure the

member I know when winter is. I do my job carefully. It has been a

particularly trying time. It's not the traditional fishing time, the

weather prevented any activity taking place at all. I'm meeting the

delegation of fishermen this afternoon and will discuss their

plight. I want to commend the local charity for the work they have done

in terms of supporting the local fishermen through a time of lead.

turn to charity to aid their lives and what measures can the Minister

put in place, given that there is a change in the season experienced by

these fishermen and can she entertain any permanent support

schemes, or more consistent support schemes, given the situations they

face? The member will be aware that last year, the Executive made a

hardship payment to fishermen of around ?400,000, which was welcome

at that time. As I said, it is important that we look at what the

long-term challenges for the industry because year on year, our

weather is getting worse. It is going to be difficult not only to

fishermen but a number of sectors so there are challenges, and I think

there are longer-term challenges. MLAs discuss the importance of guide

dogs following a motion to reclassify them as working dogs. In

a moment, we will speak to one guide dog owner who has join me with her

dog Chazz. First the flavour of what was said in the chamber. Today has

three focuses. One is to celebrate the work of guide dogs since the

opening of the offices here in 1984. Secondly, to acknowledge the

work that a guide dog does and how the environment can impact on this.

And thirdly, to demonstrate support the guide dogs Association as they

continue complex work regarding reclassification. Reading through

the information, I was astonished that they are not already in the

classification, because they do tremendous work working for the

majority of the day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, which for me

means they meet the working dog criteria and should be exempted. The

HMRC definition of working dog is based on the type of food that a dog

consumes rather than the work it requires, and I

consumes rather than the work it aware of role Hardy dogs play

consumes rather than the work it guide dogs. It is not the type of

dog, but type of dog that they eat. As guide dogs eat food that is

suitable for all dogs, they are not exempt. A working dog is defined as

not merely a pet but learning and working methods performing tasks to

age matters which aid is human companion. The flaw is that guide

dogs fit this description. And that motion passed on an oral

vote. With me are Elaine Orwin and her

guide dog, Chazz. You are both very welcome to the programme. This is a

first, I think, we haven't had a guide dog in the studio before. He

has stolen everyone's hearts, that is no surprise. We are very honoured

and he does it in every situation we are in. Somebody said they wanted to

take him home and you said, "join the queue" . What about the more

serious business of speaking to MLAs, how important was? From IM

prefatory point of view -- from my point of view, it is very important.

It is important these dogs are recognised the work they do, in

assisting people with visual impairment to get out and about

independently. That is so vital, that we can go into the world,

living our lives as independently as we can. I think a lot of people will

be surprised to hear they are not actually classed as working dogs.

How has that situation come about? The situation has come about because

originally, they were just perceived as basically very amenable pets. And

basically, it was guide dog owners and the work of the Belfast Mobility

Team, who actually wanted to have them classified for the work they

do. And they are a lot more than amenable pets? Totally. What

difference does Chazz make to your life? He works in several

locations. The most crucial one is using and accessing public

transport. He has been trained to take me on to buses and trains

transport. He has been trained to know you can get on and off the

bus, cross the road? Absolutely. The only unfortunate aspect is that

still within Northern Ireland, and we are campaigning, we would like

audio buses, because we are getting on the bus and we are still reliant

on the driver to obviously stop when we need to. So that is another

development you would like to see. We would like to campaign for that.

Is their assistance for someone like yourself in owning a guide dog? Are

there benefits that you can actually have or drawdown because you have

got a guide dog? Do you get, for example, assistance with that these

-- veterinarian fees? Absolutely, and our charity wants to make sure

that these dogs are accessible for everyone with visual impairment. The

owner is charged just a nominal fee of 50p and at that extent, guide

dogs then take on the responsibility of all veterinary care, of all food

for the guide dog for its life and basically to ensure that everyone

who wants to access the mobility of a guide dog can. But that means, of

course, but the breeding, training and homing of guide dogs is a

multi-million pound business for the charity. Absolutely, it really is

and a lot of people don't realise this. For the working life of a

guide dog, from puppy to retirement, each dog costs in the region of

?50,000. A huge amount of money. Chazz has been absolutely brilliant

it, I think he is completely not perplexed by the circumstances. His

name in the office is Mr cool. Does he take everything in his stride?

Absolutely. He is a cross between a Labrador retriever. Guide dogs are

matched to the needs of the owner. I am a former teacher and I am out and

about campaigning, going in and out of schools, and that I needed had to

be that temperament and as you can see,

Thank you. We know the cycle race the Giro

d'Italia is on its way, but could Northern Ireland also be about to

get a velodrome? The Culture Minister was asked just that during

Question Time today. Caral Ni Chuilin also discussed the

redevelopment of Windsor Park and Irish language funding. But first,

to that velodrome and the Minister perhaps feels like she's going round

in circles on the subject. We are now only a matter of months away

from one of the biggest event ever to come to Northern Ireland hitting

the streets. That will say have a massive impact in terms of the

interest in cycling and people who feel they can take of the sport.

They asked the minister if there is any further development in terms of

getting velodrome in Northern Ireland? I know it was previously

said that the business case was unsuccessful in the past but is

there any development on that and the prospect of getting velodrome in

the future? The member will know that the velodrome case previously

did the stack up in terms of numbers but there is a study underway -- did

not. There is a body pressing forward with the Department of sport

and myself for a business case and I look forward to seeing that. I know

anecdotally and through evidence and from seeing previous Commonwealth

Games and Olympics that the sport of cycling is increasing in popularity

and I have no doubt that after the Giro d'Italia, that will continue to

flourish and look forward to having the plans for the future. 800 M

people will be looking forward to having the Giro d'Italia around the

world, and not just that, the emphasis to put forward a commission

from business case that will stack up. Will the minister consider that?

I am delighted to see so much interest in cycling and indeed for a

velodrome. The member is right, we do need to see a business case and

we need to sit stacking up, so it is really important that once a

feasibility study has been completed and I have discussed it and

considered it and met with the governing bodies, with sport

Northern Ireland to talk through what the next steps are in terms of

a business case, that business case is going to be crucial and it will

have the detail that is needed in order

have the detail that is needed in provide a velodrome. Then we need to

work out what the next steps are, but we have a long way to go before

we get to that stage. Given the costs along with the thing she has

outlined and that many of the committees have issue with their

budgets, aren't there more important things they can't be doing with the

budget rather than indulging in the Minister's hobby? I'm not really too

sure what the member is trying to prove in the points that she made,

other than she is threatening me that if she believes something is

contentious, but the member should know the particular remix for the

scheme. The question is asked what else we can do and I think as

ministers, we are always looking for additionality and the day we stop

looking for additionality is the day we should hang our boots up. I have

nothing else to say in response to the member's points, I don't want to

point to her points other than political. I am progressing with

Windsor Park and I have the Belfast City Council, the deadline that I

have of them is that there plans, along with the FIA's need to be

completed by May. If they are not, I am moving on with Windsor Park. It

is unfortunate, but I'm not having any delays to Windsor Park because

Belfast City Council have not been in a position to complete their

plans for redevelopment. The Culture Minister, Caral Ni

Chuilin, in determined mood during Question Time. Joining me now with

her thoughts on proceedings is Dr Orna Young. Welcome back to the

programme, good to see you again. To go back to the top story, your

reaction to the news that John Downey isn't to be prosecuted? I

think it is building on a lot of issues around dealing with the past

more generally. Certainly, it is feeding into that feeling between

the wider victims of the hierarchy, previous discussions we have had in

that so previous discussions we have had in

how it would progress and this is a step back in terms of confidence in

the issue. is confiscated, isn't it? The PSNI handling of the case and

the wider issue of the 187 letters that appear to have been sent to

individuals? Definitely, there doesn't seem to be this equality

across the board in terms of how people are being dealt with.

Indeed, the information being given to the families, it is really

problematic for the PSNI generally in terms of how we are dealing with

the victims' issues across the board. The other issue debated in

the chamber today was to do with the paper bag levy, the plastic bag

levy. The DUP was accused of doing a U-turn on its view of paperbacks

being included in the 5p levy. How significant was this change in the

party's position? I think it is less significant than it is surprising,

given the fact that it is clearly a U-turn from 2011 and it was made

quite clear that basically what it is showing us this the parties are

ultimately going back into the electioneering mode, in terms of

satisfying particular electorates and constituencies in relation to

specific businesses. A lot of the criticism of Stormont is there isn't

much primary legislation enacted. This was potentially amending

existing legislation, even more complicated. Absolutely and if you

think about it, it was quite progressive in terms of a broader UK

context and bringing us into line with the Republic and Wales, where

it is very successful in terms of the provisions on plastic bags. We

also touched about the news that the agriculture Minister was given

?400,000 to help fishermen affected by the bad weather. I suppose some

people would say it is very not considering the help farmers got

last year because of the bad weather? -- fair enough. Yes and in

terms of the nature of the work being done, it is a conjugated area

and a real issue of the people in those areas where they are reliant

in that -- on that and those areas where they are reliant

One, when I'll have a rare interview with the Director of Prosecutions,

Barra McGrory. Until then, from everyone in the team, goodbye.