25/06/2012 Stormont Today

Hello and welcome to Stormont Today. Euro 2012 moves to the semi-final

stage. Wimbledon has started with the usual flurry of upsets. The

Olympics are just around the corner and the sport of politics grinds on

relentlessly. Tonight: An end-of- term bonus from the Education

Minister. I am announcing an investment of �133 million for

capital projects. This will be in the 2013 / 14 financial year.

debate about crossing the road made one member very cross. When the

minister is not consider whether the functioning crossings are

functioning properly, will he consider whether ministerial

appointments are functioning properly within his department?

my guest this evening is a law lecturer Rosemary Craig.

We are approaching the end of term here at Stormont so ever earned --

over the next two weeks we will decide how some of our departments

have fared. Tonight, we start with justice. Rosemary Craig is here

with her analysis. How do you think we have done overall? I think we

have to be positive. Have a lot of new appointments, new judges, we

have a new Attorney-General, we have a new Director of Public

Prosecutions, so I think we have to look at the positive side and

Northern Ireland is moving forward and I think justice is moving

slowly. But I think we have to be very positive in how we are moving

forward in Northern Ireland in that particular area. What sort of

problems do you still see happening? You mentioned things

happening slowly, cases coming to court do seem to take a long time?

Yes, I can understand that from the public perspective, but I think we

have to look at the due process of law and how a case does come to

court. I think if you remember that when a crime is committed, the

police have got to investigate that crime. They have got to put

together the file, the papers and that goes in a system to the public

prosecution service. The Public Prosecutions Service have them got

to look at the case when it comes in and make a decision based on

tests whether or not to prosecute in the case. Another new thing in

Northern Ireland is the public prosecution service. Although it

has been in existence for over five years, it is relatively new. The

Police Service of Northern Ireland is relatively new, the directive

brand new, he was appointed six months ago, he is a new boy on the

job. You have to look at all of that and take that into perspective

and say you cannot rush just as. If something is rushed through and

something is missed, you cannot really try something twice. By the

same token, we have had some cases which have taken over ten years to

come to court. Yes, there are special circumstances and I think

that is a matter for not dwelling on specific circumstances. Delayed

defeats equity. There is no doubt about that. Let's look at the

positive outcome from that case. The outcome from that case was

people were declared by a jury and the jury trial is sacrosanct and I

really like to see a jury trial. The jury trial found those people

innocent and that is a triumph for justice. OK, we will talk late in

the programme. The Education Minister have

announced a huge spending plan for school buildings, ending a two-year

freeze. But as they say, you cannot please all of the people all of the

time, particularly our MLAs. I am today announcing an investment of

100 their �3 million in special projects. It will be in the

financial -- the last quarter of the current financial year or the

financial year of 2013 / 14. I want to ensure they have been future

priest and remain a priority for an investment. I have instructed my

officials to identify it suitable projects. This is a pragmatic

approach to ensuring that issue news of the capital budget. I want

to stress that today's announcement in no way implies that other

projects will not be considered at a later stage. Some time ago there

was a review carried out of the capital projects. That resulted in

schools being designated compliant, partially compliant or non-

compliant. Schools that were deemed compliant, if they look down the

list they will see some of them that their names are missing. I

particularly draw attention to Ballymoney High School and another

school which was linked for a school project. Can the Minister

explain why those schools have somehow mysteriously disappeared

off his captain and best man? a major blow today to those who

were expecting to be on the list, which are not on the list, such as

part call which is a split site. It has already spent over a million on

its design. There have been ten years waiting. Are we going to in

the autumn see a list of the schools and a list for the future

so that schools can plan and see into the future when they are going

to be rebuilt, because it takes three or four years to redesign and

it has been a major blow to the schools. We are in the midst of a

recession and two things which would help us get out of a

recession our education and innovation. My question really is,

what consideration is the Minister giving to the refurbishment of

science labs as part of the school refurbishment programme? Schools

may be in a position where they have hoped for a rebuild and now

think this schools enhancement programme is a way forward. Can the

Minister give detail about whether this will in future be detrimental

to any school's application for a new build?

RB pelican crossings in Northern Ireland working? What are the

differences between a pelican crossing and a Puffin crossing?

Some of the highbrow questions posed to the Regional Development

Minister but first, it was just this and there was a call for a

review of the sentencing of PSNI officers. It while the review will

consider arrangements of other jurisdictions such as England and

Wales, my aim is not to replicate it GB model but find a way forward

for Northern Ireland. My view will also reflect the Court of Appeal

which has been asked by the Director of Public Prosecutions to

review the tariffs. This will provide the opportunity for the

Court of Appeal to review the sentencing guidelines for the

determination of tariffs. The recommendations of the review will

be published for consultation as soon as I have had time to consider

the court's decision and take the view of the justice committee in

the light of them. The minister was asked how much money had been

recovered from people who had for Jilly claimed legal aid. The Legal

Services Commission collected �220,000. Costs recovered included

debt, cost from the court and assisted person's legal aid. I

propose to make more plans to recover costs where defendants are

found to have the means to pay for their defence. Has the Minister any

idea of the real outstanding monies in this and is there any estimates

there for what likely could be recovered and secondly, why is

there not as efficient mechanisms in place to actually stop this

happening in the first place? answer to that second point is

absolutely clear. There are sufficient mechanisms in place

because under direct rule they were not given legislative competence

and it is something we are seeking to catch up with -- there are not

mechanisms in place. We have to consider what level of fraud there

is, whether all payments are made properly and we also looking at

taking powers to allow inspection of account books to ensure the kind

of cheques which have been identified as being required are

actually put in place because it is not a suitable system at the

present time, the one we inherited. The Regional Development Minister

was next or should that be the minister for birds. The my

department's Road Service has advised that all 440 pelican

crossings in operation across Northern Ireland are functioning

properly. A crossing in Londonderry has been turned off temporarily as

part of a temporary traffic management scheme to facilitate a

Water sewer replacement scheme. Would the minister look at the time

that members of the public have to cross and determine whether that

could be extended to make it safer for elderly people, particularly in

areas where there is a high volume of elderly residents nearby? I am

grateful to the member for the supplementary question and indeed,

I can confirm that pedestrian crossing timings are set in

accordance with national guidelines and my department's officials are

aware of the most recent research into pedestrian walking times and

will be included in any future consultation on the proposed

changes to current timings. I will say to further reflect on the

concern that he has raised. called Jim Allister. Thank you, Mr

Speaker. When the minister is not considering the weighty matter of

whether the pelican crossings are functioning properly, has he had

the opportunity to consider whether ministerial appointments are

functioning properly in his department... Can I ask the member,

clearly that is not relevant to the question. The minister did recently

launched what was called a puffin crossing and I am delighted to say

that the Minister's department has relented and will provide such a

crossing to my village which will hopefully help the elderly people

across. Is there any advantage in transferring pelican crossings to

Puffin crossings so that elderly people can cross the road safely?

There are issues of improving road safety that, and the strategic

management of traffic on the road network and a Puffin crossings

offer enhance safety and traffic flow Features. Since September 2011,

the Roads Service has upgraded existing pelican crossings to

Puffin crossings and installed 24 new puffins. The major differences

between puffins and pelicans are that... This is not a black-and-

white issue! Puffins have the red / green man on the push button, I

hope you're listening because this is important, on the push-button

unit beside the pedestrian. There is no flashing amber signal to

drivers who are held on a red signal until pedestrians have

completed their crossing and the time for pedestrians to cross the

road can be extended by sensors which detect people still on the

crossing. Drivers also derive benefit from puffins, for example,

when a pedestrian pursues the push- button and then moves away, a

demand for the Green man is cancelled so drivers do not

Now you know. A charge of corporate manslaughter

could apply to deaths of people in custody or detention here from

September. The new law will apply to those held in court, detention

cells, prisons, police cells and patients detained under the mental

health orld. Here is the Justice Minister, David Ford.

It Will apply to deaths in the custody and detention of the Prison

Service, in police custody, in court detention cells, and the

juvenile justice centre. It will also apply in the health service to

secure accommodation for young people and patients being

detainened under the mental health order T will include custody in

detention facilities of the armed forces and the customs and

immigration wings of the UK Border Agency. My proposed commencement

order will cover all such facilities in Northern Ireland. The

new offence of corporate manslaughter has a number of

important elements. It is committed when the way in which an

organisation's activities are managed or organised causes a

person's death, and amounts to a gross breach of duty of care, owed

by the organisation to the person who has died. So the focus is

largely on the managerial actions of the organisation's senior

management as a whole, rather than on those of individuals,

particularly those further down the organisation. As members will

appreciate, the offence is complex. However, basically it is about

failures of organisation and management, depending on a gross

breach of duty of care. As it is the body itself that will be

prosecuted, the main penalty available on conviction for such a

serious offence is not imprisonment, but a fine.

Rosemary, we have had high profile deaths in custody in our prisons

over the last couple of years. Do you think this will in some way add

to the pressure on the Prison Service to make sure they do

everything right, to prevent people dying in custody? Well, I certainly

think lessons have to be learned, Tara, from any death, anywhere. I

am slightly concerned by what I heard the Minister saying there,

because who's going to be held responsible? It's going to be the

body, he said, and fines. Now, fines, we have had massive fines

for things. Compensations paid in massive sums of money. That comes

out of the public purse. That money could be used for new hips, a new

hospital, for helping programmes, we need many, many programmes in

our juvenile justice system. We need them in the young offenders

centre. We need them in the women's prison. My concern is when people

are fined, or bodies are fined, that the public purse pays the fine.

What would be the alternative then, what puts pressure on the Prison

Service to do things correctly? Well, again it's like Government by

committee, because whenever the ombudsman for the Prison Service

has looked into deaths in prison, her reports have been quite clear

that there are a number of glitches in the system whereby people have

been doing wrong or not doing their job properly. But it doesn't come

out at one person. I am not looking for a head on a platter, but what I

am saying is it's difficult to find one person responsible in an

organisation for anything. If someone escapes from custody, for

example, from the prison vans or whatever, there's a number of

people. It's the organisation. Again, it's not... On one person.

Thank you. The controversial gas extraction

process known as frocking has seen angry exchanges in the chamber.

Last Thursday members of the enterprise committee heard evidence

on the topic and there was a lot of interest from one Fermanagh MLA.

the evidence just isn't there why are we rushing into this in that

gas has been there for thousands of years. It's not going anywhere.

are not rushing. An application put in 15 months, that's rushing.

will be considered in context of the existing sites. Surely these

issues should have been considered before a licence was given? It's

not a licence for fracking. It's a licence to explore. All we are

doing is having a look to see what's down there. If you are

having a look to see what's down there, how come they've published

figures telling us exactly what's down there. How many jobs it will

create, thoug will give us security of supply for F we don't know

what's down there how can they publish figures and you haven't

said those figures aren't correct? That's the whole point of

exploration. They've made estimates based on geological knowledge that

we have, which is limited to a few bore holes and data. That's the

point of the exploration, the first phase of the programme for them to

to collect the information. If that information is not correct, why

bother put it out? That's a decision for the company. I think

you and I would understand why... We would understand that there are

commercial reasons why they're suggesting that. They're coming to

give evidence next week and obviously an opportunity to talk to

the company there. But we reckon there is limited knowledge, there

is some knowledge about what is there. There is limited knowledge,

that's why this licence has been granted to do this exploratory work

to find out much more definitively what is there, how much is there,

whether it can be extracted. Then those sort of of figures and

they're guess estimates at the present minute from the company

would start to get firmed up. But they're at this stage, and they can

only be at this stage guess estimates because the work has not

been done. Well, sorry, and I did tell you I

was finished, but if we were relying on... That was four

questions ago! If we are relying on them giving guess estimates as to

what's there to attract investors how can we be sure the information

they're giving us on the environmental impact of this, on

the fact they've said they they won't use chemicals. How can you

trust them on that? That's really rather here nor there. The issue

will be what the plan - if the planning authorities decide f the

planning permission is given on a basis they don't use khaerpls --

chemicals, then they won't use chemicals. Can it be done without

chemicals? Well, Derek will have more information about this. But I

understand that because we are talking about shallow of depth, the

pressures are much lower, chemicals are needed where fracking is done

at great depth and chemicals are required to facilitate the process.

First of all, Wye like to say that we are all local people. We are

concerned citizens we are all professionals in our own right, but

not professional oil and gas industry people so we have had to

do a lot of research because the research we needed didn't come to

us. There is a huge sense in County Fermanagh people are being kept in

the dark. The whole issue of community engagement, there was one

single meeting held in County Fermanagh by the company and that

was held in Enniskillen, which is outside the licence area. Along

with lots of Government agencies, if you want to engage rural

communities you have to meet, not just in the local County town, but

try and get down local. The big issues are health and water,

economics, farming, tourism, it's a nationwide issue this, it's going

to affect everybody in Northern Ireland. There is the reputation

and perception of our country. So we need to be very much aware it's

not just one part of a small piece of Northern Ireland.

The inquiry into historical institutional abuse will take three

years to complete members were told today. The bill to set up the

inquiry was debated in the chamber this afternoon. Here is the DUP

Junior Minister Jonathan Bell outlining how the inquiry will deal

with witnesses. The inquiry will wish to call

witnesses to answer questions about the events of the time, or to hand

over evidence and it is anticipated that they will do so. However, some

may be unwilling to. Others may feel unable to because of

confidentiality issues. Clause 9 therefore enables the presiding

member to issue notices compelling witnesses to come before the

inquiry or compelling evidence to be given to it. Often when we talk

of victims and survivors we talk of the benefits and the advantages of

story-telling. There is no doubt that an individual can take great

comfort from being able in a safe and secure environment, perhaps for

the first time in ten, 20, 30 or 40 years, to have the facility to tell

their story. To get it off their chest. Wye put it to you, that

that's not really the full benefit. Story-telling is only of real

advantage to a victim or a survivor if there is somebody listening.

It's my personal opinion that the costs of this investigation should

at least in part be met by the Catholic Church. Because it is

clergy and lay people within the Catholic Church on this one who are

responsible, at least in part, and the leadership of the Church

culpable in terms of dealing with it and those costs should be met

therefore appropriately. I think the legislation that will pass this

House must include measures to control costs and minimise costs to

the taxpayer, but at the same time ensure that the investigation and

the report that will come from the investigation are clearly robust

and will provide that surety to people who are victims.

Martin McGuinness spoke today about his planned meeting with the Queen.

He was asked if there is a role for the monarchy in any possible united

Ireland. I think all of these things are

obviously up there for discussion. I want to see a reunited Ireland

and I am very determined, through my involvement in politics, to try

and bring that about. I think we have made massive strides forward

through the peace process in recent times. Power-sharing rules, all-

Ireland institutions, east-west institutions rule, so we have to

continue to move forward. The unthinkable in the past has come to

pass. So, other things that may be unthinkable now I believe will come

to pass in the future. But the next phase of this has to be a phase of

reconciliation and I think that debate has commenced and I think it

will gather speed over the course of coming times and I would like to

think that what will happen on Wednesday morning will be a further

impetus, a further spur on the road to national reconciliation in

Ireland. Should Ireland, for example, consider joining the

Commonwealth as part of this new phase? Well, I wouldn't be in

favour of that and I don't think it's really necessary even to get

into that at this stage. I do believe that as we evolve and as

time moves forward we will become involved in very important dialogue

and discussions about how everybody can feel safe and secure and

comfortable on the island of Ireland. I want to be involved in

showing a spirit of generosity to the unionist people and to ask in a

sizable percentage, if not all, of the unionist community to recognise

that in terms of economic prosperity, in terms of social

stapblt, -- stability, in terms of political stability, in terms of

the affinity that we all need to have with each other, we are much

better working on the basis that we can collectively take take

decisions that make this island a far better place for all of to us

live in. Well, the grounds of Stormont have

been a hive of activity today. Gareth Gordon filled me in on the

preparations for this week's Jubilee party.

Well, in case anyone is confused, politics is still the main business

here at Stormont, even if the grounds have been turned into

something like the days before Glastonbury or something. Something

going on here that you couldn't help but notice it. Lots of crash

barriers, they're appearing because the population of Northern Ireland

have suddenly become interested in what MLAs are doing. Rather it's

all to do with the visit on Wednesday by the Queen. And not

inconsiderable crowd of 22,000 people here to see her. You cannot

bring as many people as that on to the grounds of the estate without

some facilities in place, we have a marquee going up behind, we have

portaloos, two stages as well and rumours of some pretty big name

acts to play on those stages. But of course they'll not steal the top

billing from the Queen. This is one of only two places in Northern

Ireland during her two-day visit where she will be doing a walkabout.

But remember this, it will be a very short time. The organisers are

aware you cannot bring a big crowd without giving them something else

to do while waiting for the Queen, hence this activity. A non-

appearance of a portrait of the Queen has roughlied a few feathers.

This is a portrait of the Queen painted by the late artist Lydia

deBerg who happens to have been an aunt of an unionist MLA. It's on

loan to Hillsborough Castle. He's used colourful language to

express his annoyance of the fact it hasn't been brought here. He

says Stormont is an almost a venue for constant exhibition - he

singles out the current one for crit criticism, he says it's a

bizarre set of fish skins, technically I think he is right.

This is an exhibition by an artist, The Screaming Silence of the Wind

and uses fish leather. Jim Allister has a point about fish skins. He is

unimpressed saying authorities are quite happy to bedeck Stormont like

a Middle Eastern bazarr but cannot find room for a portrait of the

Queen. Something that's been debated recent shreu whether or not

to allow television cameras into court, are you for or against?

think there is an argument for and against. It depends on what aspect

they're going to televise. Sometimes there's a pilot running

where they're televising the junk giving -- judge giving out the

verdict, that type of thing, or sentencing. But I spent time last

summer in America where the Casey Anthony trial, a child that was

murdered, went on and it was really horrendous, it was a circus. It

really was. The prosecution and the defence were just acting and Wye