26/02/2013 Stormont Today

Welcome to Stormont today. Coming up: Debate and discussion over

flags has dominated political proceedings in recent months. Once

again it was the hot topic in the Assembly chamber. We come up the

Prince of Wales avenue. We come past car sons statue. We come in

under Britannia' lines. Poppies are sold in November. Yet our national

flag is not flown. We'll hear more on that topic from Alex Maskey and

Tom Elliott. The Finance Minister spells out the extent of our

financial dependence on Westminster. Will we ever get to the position we

don't have a deficit? I doubt it very much.

Since the flag decision at Belfast City Hall last December, the DUP

and the Ulster Unionists have been pushing for the assembly commission

to look at the issue of flags and emblems here at Parliament

buildings. The commission is made up of one member of each party, but

since December, the SDLP and Sinn Fein have boycotted it. These

parties want a new ad hoc committee to look at flags and emblems and

today they put forward a motion to that effect. The DUP before

Christmas were calling for a forum to discuss the issue of flags and

identity. Today, they have tabled a petition of concern in order to

block the establishment of such a forum. Seems to me that both

Unionist parties are letting themselves be led by the illegal,

anti-democratic protesters. Some of the staff in this building have

come to me saying they feel their traditions and identity have not

been respected. They do not work in a neutral environment. And they

feel discriminated. Would you allow a situation where a member is

making reference to members of staff in this House and I ask the

Speaker to rule on this issue and I ask the member to withdraw what is

a scurrilous and a very dangerous position. On the point of order,

there is a mechanism outside the chamber if staff have a problem

with this building. I would be careful and caution members on

drawing staff into a political situation. We come up the Prince of

Wales avenue. We come past Carson s statue. Poppies are sold at every

entrance during November. Yet our national flag is not flown. Our

Irish language is not given the place it deserves. Our symbols, for

example the Easter lily, are not given parity of esteem. It's really

not conducive to good debate for the member or anyone else to wave

redundant documents from 15 years ago. That really isn't conducive to

where we are now and the progress that we need to make for the future.

The issue at the moment is this: That the factual position in law is

that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Now I know the

member for south down doesn't like that, doesn't want that, but has to

accept that. Now that's the reality. It doesn't matter how many ad hoc

committees she wants established. It doesn't matter how many votes

she wants, that's the reality. A reflection of that reality is that

the flag of the United Kingdom flies in the Parliament of the

United Kingdom in London. Why do we need a new way of dealing with

these areas when we already have an appropriate mechanism? The

commission has attempted to meet on a number of occasions recently to

progress this matser with the SDLP and Sinn Fein also the Alliance

Party on two occasions boycotting the meetings. If these parties are

not prepared to discuss these issues within the context of the

commission meetings, then why should we expect any progress

within an ad hoc committee? My party is seeking to effect change

which is fair through reaching a consensus. That is why it is so

disappointing that others are not willing to participate through the

usual forum. We are all here to lead and this is what leading does,

by the setting up of this group. Not just looking singly at the

flags, but looking at emblems, symbols and language strategy, a

mature discussion in this chamber by all should take place and that

is how we demonstrate to those in the community and to the outside

world that this Assembly does not shy away from the difficult

decisions and that we are capable of maintaining political

recognition over the flags and symbols. Rpbgts I believe the

existence of an ad hoc committee and the work proposed for the

commission are not mutually exclusive. One might inform the

other. Therefore I'm content to support the motion. There is a need

for mature debate. No I won't give way. There is need for mature

debate. Order. The member shouldn't persist. We need to balance the

role of the commission where the members are to act with integrity

including political impartiality and with the views of members which

could be expressed viate committee. We should see this motion today not

as a threat but as an opportunity to look at issues which will allow

the Assembly to be' flected as an Assembly for everyone. Sometimes

people say also political traditions aren't represented here.

We need to deal with symbols an emblems. There's no reflection of

Irish Republicanism in this building. Will he give way? Yes.

am happy to see -- pleased with what the member is saying so he

could have an added minute. Could I just say to the whole House, I will

not allow members to abuse interventions. For allowing a

member an extra minute. Order, interventions should be making a

contribution to the debate. They should be genuine interventions. I

warn the whole House. I hope I don't have to warn the member again.

The speaker delivering a stern rebuke to the DUP's William

Humphrey for what he deemed an inappropriate intervention in

today's debate. And with me now Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey and Tom

Elliott of the Ulster Unionist party.Tom Elliott and Alex Maskey,

thank you. Your effort to establish this new committee failed today. Do

you accept the outstanding issues will now have to be dealt with by

the Assembly commission? All these things have to be dealt with. They

all are very important. I do think it's important to say that on a day

in which the Assembly was discussing the future of the

provision for social housing, the issue around school closures, all

these important mattersant highlight of the news coverage of

the Assembly is the issue of flags and emblems. That should not be the

case. They are very important. Yes, they will have to be dealt with.

That's why we were saying, let's set up an ad hoc committee, go and

have a rational, mature, informed discussion and then deal with all

the issues around flags and emblems and symbols and languages. Do you

accept now that the commission is the place, even though you don't

necessarily like it, that is the place where that debate has to take

place? Or what's your next move? a way, if those want, if the other

parties want to take it in the Assembly commission they'll raise

it and the commission deliberations will happen. Will you attend those

meetings, up till now you haven't? We'll see. As far as we're

concerned we will not be railroaded into continuing to have the

environment at Stormont representative of only one

community. That is not tenable. It's not sustainable or acceptable.

Therefore people think that by using the commission they will

railroad a one-sided reflection of our symbols and emblems, that's not

going to happen. You might have won the battle today, but you haven't

won the war. Well, what we need to recognise is we have a process for

dealing with these issues, through the commission. Just the same as we

have other committees in the Assembly to deal with these matters.

With respect, not if Alex Maskey and the SDLP and Alliance Party

don't turn up. The commission can't meet to discuss them. We did listen

to members Sinn Fein today saying we are all for democracy, bring it

on. That's democracy. That's how we work it. I didn't hear complaints

from Sinn Fein and others around the Belfast City Hall decision

simply because they claim that was democracy. We're in a democratic

process, so why not deal with it through that process? I don't see

what the issue is around the flag. We're part of the United Kingdom.

Everybody should recognise that irrespective of whether you don't

like it or not. We're part of the United Kingdom. I don't complain

when I go to the Republic of Ireland and see the tricolour

flying. If it was that simple, there wouldn't be the debate that

there is about it. It's much more complicated than that. It is, but

that's only because people want to make it complicated. I hear all

this about inclusiveness about democracy. Why don't they accept

it? They continue their cultural warfare. I have been in an ad hoc

committee that Sinn Fein and the SDLP established because they

wanted a working environment. Now they have put language things on

the paper. That's not inclusive. That's nonsense. He might have

difficulty in regard to his party. The DUP never accepted the Good

Friday agreement. When you read the agreement and understand it, it is

about respecting everybody's symbols and emblems. That's what

this discussion boils back down to. The Belfast City Council decision

was not a decision taken overnight. There's been years of discussions

in the City Hall as in other council chambers. That was a

compromise. This building and the parties in here have to work

together. Assembly commission, obviously as Tom may think, may end

up with a majority rule decision. That will not resolve the problem

of how we respect each other. can't agree on the issues of

emblems and symbols, but not only, that you can't agree on the

mechanism for discussing that to try to reach agreement. You say the

commission's the place, Tom Elliott, the commission is tasked with

ensuring the Assembly is provided with the property, staff and

services required for the Assembly to carry out its work. It's not

about debating huge issues. That is the place for it to be dealt with.

Why? That's what the commission does. I think we have to be clear.

Alex says... Briefly. Alex goes back to the Belfast Agreement. If

we want to quote that, that enshrines Northern Ireland as being

an integral part of the United Kingdom. Why can't his people

accept that until the majority of We all have to be respected.

Elliott and Alex Maskey, thank you. During last week's Budget Bill

debate, Sinn Fein MLAs clashed with the finance minister, Sammy Wilson,

over the size of Northern Ireland's subsidy from London. Sinn Fein says

it believes the size of the deficit may be exaggerated. And it had more

questions for Mr Wilson at Question Time this afternoon.

The purpose of the latest net fiscal balance report is to provide

a broad overview of the public sector finances in Northern Ireland

for 2006, 2007, 2010 and 2011. The report provides an estimate of

overall net fiscal balance position, which is essentially the difference

between Government expenditure and the revenue which is raised locally.

In that regard, VAT estimates is only an element. It is indicated in

the report, it is not provided for an accurate estimate of VAT, which

has been estimated it in the absence of regional data.

minister well known that income tax, VAT, corporation tax, estimated

makes that up. That is based on two surveys and in terms of corporation

tax, there is questions as to whether the headquarters of

companies are based here will affect those figures. Can I ask the

Minister does he agree the estimates are insufficient for the

Executive? Also there is a need for the minister and Executive to put

pressure on the Treasury to release more accurate figures? Of course,

not in all cases do we have the exact figures for revenue collected

here in Northern Ireland, and that is not of course just true for

Northern Ireland, it is true for other devolved administrations.

Does the minister had a strategy for reducing the fiscal deficit,

and what would be within that strategy? Of course, we don't want

to be reliant on subsidies from central Government, because of

course that leaves the Northern Ireland economy evict interchanges

at central Government level when it comes to fiscal decisions. The

reason why we have given primacy to growing the economy, especially

growing deprive its sector of the economy, is to reduce our

dependence upon the transfer of funds from Westminster, or from

parts of the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland. I would point out

to the member of course, we are not in a unique position here. Of all

the regions in the United Kingdom, only two are in surplus, the others

are in deficit. That is because economic activity is mostly

generated. Will we be in the position where we won't have a

deficit? I doubt it very much. I think it is nine other regions in

the United Kingdom also in debt as a because of their geographical

position, and it is difficult to attract investment and generate

economic activity, and that it will always be. That is the benefit of

being in the Union, we have that ability as part of a bigger

constitutional units, we have that ability for the weaker areas to be

helped out by the stronger areas. The finance minister, Sammy Wilson.

During health questions, the minister found himself dealing with

two highly topical issues - waiting times at the Ulster Hospital's A&E

department and the ongoing issue of horsemeat. Here is Edwin Poots

taking a question from Sinn Fein's Southdown MLA, Chris Hazzard, on

the horsemeat scandal. Can the Minister outlined who funds the FSA

here and who they are accountable to? The Food Standards Agency is

funded directly by ourselves, but it is not responsible to this

Assembly, as such. It is a body which is outside the Assembly. That

has been set up because of the issues that surrounded the BSE

problems. The lack of fate there was in politicians at that point in

time. And I note the party has been suggesting Food Standards Agency

should come under political authority. This is the same party

that called for an independent Environment Protection Agency just

a few years ago. It would appear the party has done somersaults on

this particular issue. Can I ask him to clarify what the position is

on the slaughter of courses in Northern Ireland? It is legal to

slaughter and sell horsemeat in the United Kingdom, provided it is from

an approved abattoir and an official stamp it is fit for human

consumption. There were horses killed in Northern Ireland up until

a relatively short time ago. Around 40 every fortnight. Those were

exported, and all of that trade was legal and legitimate. It was being

carried out properly. The company has since discontinued doing that

course of work because it was interfering with other aspects of

business. But there was no indication whatsoever, no evidence

of any kind which would indicate that particular horsemeat was

ending up in the food market. There has been a huge amount of testing

carried out. We are satisfied from a food safety perspective, this is

not a danger to the public. This is a labelling issue, an issue of

fraudulent behaviour and I trust people will be in court and charged

in due course over this. Some of them are very big companies. Let's

be honest, the need to be went after and pursued rigorously.

you are a work, the stuff that is in the media around the Ulster

Hospital, can you outline to me why patients were laying with the

ambulance crew for four hours, and the ambulance crew were held up for

four hours? If you can outline, was there a divert on by the Ulster

Hospital, and it the Ambulance Service put a divert on away from

the Ulster Hospital? There are diverts on an ongoing basis from

the Ulster Hospital to the Royal, and I will deal with that a little

more in a moment. There was 66 ambulances yesterday at the Ulster

Hospital. Last Monday there were 68 ambulances. Normally it is in the

50s. When you have ambulances are pulling up, you get 60% of patients

being admitted to the hospital. It has proved a very tight in terms of

the number of missions that it was taken place in the South Eastern

Trust area. There has been more medical admissions taking place of

the elderly population, and consequently the hospital is under

greater pressure. The Royal does take diverts from the Ulster

Hospital. It is something we need to give some consideration to,

because the Ulster does not have the capacity, it is the main

hospital. It does not have the capacity the Belfast Trust have in

terms of acute bed numbers. I think that we would do well to give some

consideration to the numbers of birds that are likely to become

available in the Ulster Hospital on a particular day, and if it is

recognised there is pressures on to put the diverts in at an earlier

point, to ensure the pressure is absorbed in a better way. We don't

want to see people waiting in ambulances outside hospital. It is

not the type of care this Assembly wants.

The health minister, Edwin Poots. Speculation about proposals for

reform of social housing has been unhelpful and perhaps uninformed,

according to the social development Minister. In a statement this

morning, Nelson McCausland, also stressed that change was needed in

order to deliver value for money. The housing Executive has a long

track record over the past 40 years of improving social housing stock.

My proposals for the form of social housing is about acknowledging past

achievements in terms of social housing provision while it is

focusing on future sustainability and delivery, for the benefit of

tenants and the taxpayer. The fundamental review of the Northern

Ireland Housing Executive by Price Waterhouse Coopers in 2011, found

the current model and structures no longer allow optimal delivery of

either strategic housing or landlord services. The general

consensus from a series of meetings from stakeholders, concluded that

do-nothing option was not a realistic solution. Over the last

few weeks, since I made the written statement, there has been a lot of

unhelpful and uninformed speculation about my proposals.

They are not about abolishing the Housing Executive, they are about

improving the structures for the delivery of those functions. They

do not herald large-scale job losses, as I made it quite clear

that staff in the housing Executive, currently delivering landlords and

none landlord functions, will still have to deliver those functions,

but in different, more focused and financially sustainable structures.

By the end of 20th March 15, I aim to have in place, a sustainable

housing system which delivers regional housing needs through

landlord structures and housing associations and which is

strategically Govan, and regulated. With regard to a rent setting

regime, I propose an independent setting rent Panel is established,

which will agree annual rent levels within the parameters of the fiscal

rental policy based on affordability, set by me as

minister and subject to scrutiny of the Assembly. In the establishment

of a regional housing body, I intend the current housing

Executive and on landlords functions will fall under the remit

of a Northern Ireland regional housing body. It is disappointing

he has said little apart from wishing to explore and develop

proposals are ready in scant detail. In 2012 the minister accused the

Housing Executive of having failed its tenants. I am sure he denied

his party and other reasons, will be sad to see it go? The issue the

Member refers to what comments I made about failures and

shortcomings in the Northern Ireland exec -- Housing Executive.

And I'm sure the concerns I expressed that time were shared by

members of all parties, right across the chamber, because there

were very serious matters in terms of the quality of the delivery for

tenants. And also serious questions with regard to the value for money

issue in terms of some of the management and maintenance contract

issues. The social development Minister,

Nelson McCausland. Now, Stormont will be few politicians lighter

next month as a posse of them heads off to the annual St Patrick's Day

festivities in Washington. But precisely how many should go from

the OFMDFM Committee was a source of disharmony at its meeting last

Wednesday. This is an annual picture that the Kennedy travelled

to Washington in and around St Patrick's Day. As I understand it

is normal an invitation is extended to ditcher and deputy chair of this

committee, whereas clearly, in paragraph two, in this instance the

invitation is to five members of the committee, the chair, deputy

chair and one representative from each of the other three parties. I

am just wondering if members have any views? It is up to the parties

if they want to send a representative. We are content to

discuss and do the same. Beyond the top sheet it you will see a draft

from the clerk. Which I suppose is a reasoned argument for accepting

the invitations. And on the back page, we can see a best estimate of

the implication for costs if we went with what has gone in previous

years, we're looking at 5,700, approx. If all five parties decide

to send a representative, that could trouble. I have read the

letter and I don't see any rigorous just to vacations from moving to

two to five people travelling. So, I would like the committee to reach

a decision and I have to say, I see no rationale for extending it to

fire people. I think on the one hand, nobody else does, because

they are representing their parties then fair enough. I wouldn't be

happy under the current claim to go to do not represent everybody. If

we can facilitate a representative of every delegation, leave it up to

the party whether they want to go or not. We had previously discussed

this with Danny Kennedy as minister for regional developments and we

have reached a decision were one or all of us would go, but not both

travel at the taxpayers' expense. Danny went last year as minister,

we took the view that it one of us was going this the it would be me

as capacity of the chair. But that is your party represented. I hope

you don't mind me telling you it is for information. You are entitled

to do that, obviously. Do you want to vote on the invitation to one

from each five? I think it is an invitation and if it can be a

facilitator to have a representative grouping, I think we

should consider that in a positive light but leave it to the parties

if they want to send someone on Oct. So the proposal is if it is left to

individual parties to decide if they accept the invitations he can

only extend to the chair, the vice- chair and one representative from

the other three parties on the committee? Should we have a

recorded vote of those who are in favour, please. Why do we need a

recorded vote? Because I would like a recorded vote so I know who I am

voting against? Do we have anybody in favour of the proposal? Yes.

against? Myself. I won't be travelling to Washington as chair

of this committee because I see no just a vocation for sending five

people, when in previous years, two seemed perfectly adequate. Does

that mean Danny Kennedy will now go? Note. As explained, you are

making a political point,. I am worried about the cost to public

purse and value for money. I made the point about you and Danny

Kennedy, you agreed one or other would go. You are now opting out.

With your party be represented in Washington? I need to be speaking

to a Danny. You said no, and minutes ago. You said does this

mean, I said no, because I cannot tell you that because I have not

spoken to Danny. The question you asked, does this mean Danny will be

going? You said no, he wouldn't. said no, not necessarily. I did not

hear that. The answer is No, not necessarily.

Mike Nesbitt and Alex Maskey in discussion at last week's meeting