28/11/2016 Stormont Today

Once again moral matters were was the major talking point

in the chamber as Members discussed potential changes

to abortion legislation here - and pardons for men found

guilty of now abolished homosexual offences.

The Health Minister says proposals recommended in a report on abortion

in the cases of fatal foetal abnormality will be

Now that the first and Deputy First Minister have seen the report, I

will be bringing forward proposals in the New Year.

And as gay pardons are debated, one MLA calls out the DUP.

Where is he hiding? And it was who sat in pews yesterday in a church

that still believes homosexuality is a sin.

And joining me with his thoughts on today's developments

Could one of the longest-running issues at Stormont be

The Health Minister told MLAs that she will bring proposals

to the Assembly in the New Year dealing with abortion here.

The proposals will be based on the findings of the working group

set up to look into the law around cases of fatal foetal abnormality.

That report is now with the Health and Justice Ministers and Stormont

sources have told the BBC that it recommends a change

Michelle O'Neill revealed the likely timetable of events,

but before that she was asked about hospital waiting lists,

as she and the Ulster Unionist, Steve Aiken, engaged in a running

In view of those awful figures we are hearing, could be minister,

given the recent media reports on the lengthening of waiting list

times, explain how massaging targets is beneficial to the near 250,000

cases on our waiting list? I am not interesting in massaging anything. I

am most interested in people being seen in the most timely manner. That

is my priority in terms of being the Health Minister. We need a

transformed health and social care. That is why we're trying to deliver

21st-century health and social care with a 20th-century system. We have

a rising demand, more people being seen, but people are also living

longer with more complex conditions. We have short-term initiatives and

long-term initiatives. Let's transformed health and social care

and I want to deliver that because if we do not do that, we will be

having this conversation for many years to come. This problem does not

happen overnight. This has been a result of cuts year on year by the

Tory government, and you can laugh all you want, but your friends, the

Tories, cut year-on-year and made it really difficult. I would do

absolutely everything I can. I will continue to do that because I want

the public to get the message loud and clear, I am doing everything I

can to bring waiting lists down and the public will thank us for that.

It has been over six weeks since the working group on fatal fatal

abnormality completed its work. One will the report be published? The

Justice Minister and I received it on the 11th of October. The First

Minister and Deputy First Minister have seen the report and they just

minister and I will continue to work closely on the matter and we will

bring proposals forward in the New Year. Many people are now calling up

the establishment for what it was, a political whitewash the provided a

convenient escape the DUP when they needed one. Will she restore some of

the rapidly waning confidence in this report by giving us an

anticipated timescale? How long will it take her and the Justice Minister

and executive to form an opinion? I was very interested. It was a very

important piece of work in so far as it sought the views of women and

their families who are impacted, and I had to be a core element of the

work group toad. I welcome the input which they provided and I want to

thank them because I appreciate what they did. I also appreciate the

upset that lies behind their own personal experiences because it is

not easy to show your own personal story. I believe the work has been

invaluable. Professionals including midwives, gynaecologists, GPs, and

also took into account the views of interested parties who responded to

the recent consultation on the matter. The time frame we will bring

proposals forward early in the New Year. Early in the New Year. Now

that the first and Deputy First Minister has seen the report, we

will work on it, but I will be bringing forward proposals in the

New Year. Michelle O'Neill -

and as the Minister said there, the First and Deputy First Ministers

have now seen the conclusions reached by the working group,

and just last Friday our Political Editor, Mark Devenport,

asked them both for their There are challenging situations,

particularly the whole issue of fatal abnormality is whether there

is no prospect of life. I have met with Sarah Ewart in particular, are

very important case a much publicised in Northern Ireland,

where she travelled to England in the most distressing circumstances

possible. I do think it is an issue that our Assembly needs to deal with

in the time ahead because quite clearly, we support the right of any

family who have been told they have a fatal abnormality to have that

child. But we also support the right of any family unable to do that to

access the termination in our health service. But that is something that

can only be resolved by the Assembly. We should make no after a

consideration of all of the implications. I wanted to do that

back in March of this year. I felt it was absolutely wrong to tackle

onto a justice bill dealing with firearms a piece around abortions on

the two fatal abnormality in sexual crimes as well. That was wrong. We

asked them to come forward, they do it. They have reported to the

Justice Minister and Health Minister and I look forward to having further

discussions in relation to those issues. Had you seen that paper now?

The paper has been shared with me recently. I have been able to read

the paper but of course I want to engage with my own party in relation

to those issues, I want to ask questions in relation to the

conclusions reached. It is only right I did as well. I have already

started that process in relation to engagement and have started the

process of asking questions around the conclusions.

Last Friday the Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness said

the Assembly should not just deliberate on, but legislate

And the abortion issue also opened proceedings in the chamber today.

Last week the Green Party MLA, Clare Bailey, brought a petition

to the Assembly calling for abortion law in Northern Ireland

Today, the DUP's Jim Wells brought what he called 'the largest petition

ever' to the Assembly, aiming to protect the rights

Today, I am presenting you with what I believe to be the largest petition

ever received by the Northern Ireland Assembly. 300,000

signatures, not 35,000, calling for the protection of the unborn child

in Northern Ireland. These have been signed by Northern Ireland residents

who have given their address and can be verified. Therefore I believe

this petition is authentic. In the time that it has taken to make this

short speech and the present this petition to you, another child will

have been aborted. One child is aborted every five minutes in the

rest of the United Kingdom. That is an awful strain on the character of

our nation. 98.9% of those children are totally well, fit and able, they

have been aborted on many occasions because it was simply not convenient

that they were born. Jim Wells very firmly

making his point there. Alex, this issue of fatal foetal

abnormality has been one of the most divisive matters to come

before the Assembly. Are we inching towards

a resolution perhaps? I think we are. It was interesting

that body language there and also what Arlene Foster said and did not

say. She said, I did not want it on the previous legislation, I have

begun talks, we will have further discussions then reach a conclusion.

I do not want to read too much into it but it sounded to me like she was

prepared to have a debate that the DUP would not have done.

Can you see the DUP backing a change to the law in cases of fatal

foetal abnormality - or even allowing its

My instinct is they will allow a free vote. I am not sure over the

whole house have the vote will go but there is a clear distinction in

Northern Ireland between people who oppose abortion and others who do

oppose it but think there should be leeway when it comes to fatal faecal

abdominal at it. I think the lifetime of this Assembly it will

get through. So it is more likely to be a free vote rather than the party

actually supporting the recommendations of this working

group? A free vote makes sense. People have told me their concerns

about abortions but have admitted they have no huge problem, moral

problem, with a fatal faecal abnormality changes. If she gives a

free vote, it will be interesting. She is a strong position at the

moment. She has her own mandate now and as far away as the next election

as you can possibly be. So if she is going to do something like this,

arguably now is as good a time as any. There are two or three big,

social moral issues. The DUP has to give leeway on at least one of them.

All my instincts suggest that it will be on this issue.

It was, of course, a DUP Health Minister -

Simon Hamilton - who set up this working group.

Does that somehow make his party 'obliged' to accept

That at least is the point that will be discussed internally. Simon

himself has said he will be guided by the signs. Claire Sugden's

personal opinion is there should be change. She is in a key position,

she can say to the First Minister, I would like some leeway here, it

would make it better. We saw Jim Wells presenting

a petition to the Assembly there. It's very clear where

his priorities lie. Could attempting to force this

legislation through cause a major There is certainly an evangelical

wing of the DUP, mostly outside the Assembly. People there would not

have been there ten years ago who have softer views than some of those

moral issues. I just think the mood is against Jim. I respect his

opinions but the mood is against him. There is still a bigger broader

audience out there. We will hear more from you later in the

programme. The second moral issue

to raise its head today was that of pardons for gay men for now

abolished sexual offences. The matter was dealt with by way

of a Legislative Consent Motion where the Assembly agrees to hand

devolved powers back to Westminster. As the Justice Minister

presented the motion, everyone present appeared

to be in agreement, The fourth and final proposal within

the motion concerns pardons for sexual offences. The UK Government

has indicated its support to provide in England and Wales statutory

pardon the gay and bisexual men who were convicted of sexual offences

but would not be offences today. The activity must've been consensual and

involved a person aged 16 or over. Everyone today who is going to

endorse by their silence or their vote this pardon is accepting that

homosexuality, which many of their churches teach is a still, that

buggery is still wrong, that is the teaching many of them have. That

nonetheless is a normal sexual activity. These amendments are an

existing provisions in England and Wales. Subsequent amendments tabled

by Lord Laxton would make provision for Northern Ireland by introducing

powers in the protection of freedoms act 2012 along with new provisions

which provide statutory pardons. Those shot at dawn were pardoned 90

years after. Don't the good pardons. Allen showing was pardoned in 2013.

And the decriminalisation of homosexuality came into force 34

years ago. I think what this does is it puts right the consequences of a

bad law. This was a cruel and unjust homophobic law, a dinosaur in the. A

lot of people have been harmed as a result of this law and no one should

be discriminated against or be found guilty or have been a criminal for

falling in love. We should take any opportunity to right wrongs. That is

what this proposal does in terms of pardons for offences. And for that

reason, we will oppose this amendment. It is pretty obvious that

even in the way he says LGBT, he has got a bad taste in his mouth. It is

disgraceful. The way he answered the question or refuse to answer

questions from various members. Mr Alistair's problem is he does not

like homosexuality, he finds it distasteful. He said so, so many

times. It is on the record now. In cases of clear discrimination,

whether it be against the LGBT community, whether it be the issue

of slavery or even if we go back, the burning of so-called witches,

there is shame in our past. I think we should recognise it as a state

and as legislators and I think where possible we should Just a couple of

years ago addressing schoolchildren, Mr Buchanan said, quoted in the

local Ulster Herald, as saying homosexuality isn't right, it is an

abomination. Which Mr Buchanan is here today? Where is he hiding?

Where is Mr Storey hiding? And others who sat in queues yesterday

in a church that still holds that homosexuality is a sin.

Jim Allister, whose amendment was put to a vote, but,

in a strange piece of Stormont choreography, because he was

the only teller to come forward, the House could not divide.

The unamended Legislative Consent Motion therefore

Next tonight to speed limits outside primary schools and plans to reduce

them - a subject for discussion during today's questions

But, perhaps not surprisingly, the much-discussed York Street

Interchange for Belfast took precedence.

Does the Minister believe there is any prospect of the ?250 million

announced in the Chancellor 's statement for infrastructure being

used to ensure that this vital project is commenced? I thank the

member. It will be for the executive to come to the decision on how the

children ?50 million is divvied out, of course the children ?50 million

the member alludes to is for capital projects. Some of that I have no

doubt the problems will be able to deliver but I presume the money will

also be used for schools, for hospitals and new homes, too. I have

established an alternative financing unit within the Department to look

at all available funding not just for this project but for all

projects going forward. I currently have somewhere in the region of ?5

billion worth of projects on my desk that you could proceed with however

I will only have in the region of one or 1.5 billion in the next five

years. A more recent innovation has been the development of part-time 20

miles per hour 's speed limits near schools. The speed limit at the

skills is reduced to 20 mph at school opening and closing times at

term time. The schools are frequently an unlit roads which

further adds to the hazards that school children are exposed to in

dark winter days. Many schools in urban areas are located within

traffic camera zones where traffic speeds are reduced to 12 and 20 mils

per hour due to the self of forcing effects of road humps and crossing

facilities. The area is a high priority, those on hundred 57 on

roads, especially rural roads, where the National speed limit applies.

Can I ask the Minister to comment on figures he provided to me that shows

the peak number of movements in the Yorkshire exchanges 111,000 car as

well as the A5 96 peaks at 20 and 26000 and ask him does he believe

that the Yorkshire entertained is utterly essential to not just the

economy of Belfast but all of Northern Ireland? There are other

statistics and we can bring those other statistics in and I have

alluded to this already. Had you asked for fatality statistics at the

York Street interchange and compare them to the A5 eight sex, you would

have an entirely different set of statistics. I maybe wrong on this

but I am not aware of any fatalities at the York Street interchange. I am

aware of nearly 50 fatalities on the A5 so as I have said strategically

for me the number of criteria we can base this on certainly one of the

most important I think for someone in my position is to make our roads

as safe as possible. I would not have stood in this house recently

and made the decision to proceed with the Yorkshire interchange if I

did not accept the arguments that this was a strategic beat of

infrastructure for not just the city of Belfast but that the economy of

all requires. I accept that. I do not have the financial ability right

now at my disposal to build everything we absolutely wants all I

need to prioritise. When we look at the economy we continue to talk in

this house and public airwaves about moving cars. We need to talk about

moving people. Living people is good for business in Belfast, moving cars

is not. What are we to do after your street? Builders have of great

Victoria Street because we need to wins? Belfast -- demolished Belfast

City Hall? We need to talk about moving people, not moving cars.

Chris Hazzard on the challenge of keeping things moving in Belfast.

A second Legislative Consent Motion brought to the House today extended

provisions of the Higher Education and Research Bill.

The Economy Minister said it would ensure that Northern Ireland

will continue to be a part of how higher education

is co-ordinated throughout the UK, but there will be no link

here between the Teaching Excellence Framework and tuition fees.

Published differential results of universities will be of interest to

potential students and our institutions have a genuine and well

founded concern that they will suffer adversely if they do not

appear on a UK wide list of quality in relation to teaching excellence.

Hearing that they are allowed to take part will provide the

institutions with an assurance that they are on a level playing field

across the UK. The argument from some scenes mistakenly that should

universities use the TEF then they can use the increased fees when

interest they have already risen with inflation year on year. I noted

that it is sufficiently different and to some extent you need context,

meaning that the role of choice is diminished. The institutions here

that the Minister has at this issue in his opening remarks. They also

asked that the committee sought a guarantee that outcomes will not be

links to view it was in again something that has been addressed.

Strong and compelling arguments have been made to highlight the

likelihood of universities pretend -- potentially using this framework

to create what could become elitist institutions. While it may be used

in terms of higher-level fees in terms of what happened in England

that is not a rich we are forced to go down in Northern Ireland. That is

a matter that is purely something that is entirely within our own

discretion. I think assessments should be done in an open and

democratic way where students should be allowed to come together and

collectively discuss and assessed courses and teaching to the

clustered system and through student unions. England want to link

inflationary fee increases to the TEF when is the fee increases in

both and Ireland are automatic. The British tradition must be

accommodated in a United Ireland, according to the Deputy First

Minister, Martin McGuinness. He was speaking at the launch

of a Sinn Fein discussion document entitled,

"Towards a United Ireland". It examines how unification

would affect key areas including the economy,

tourism, transport, policing, A new Ireland built on the

principles of equality and inclusion. We believe that this

would require a new constitution and a bill of rights. It would require a

discussion on symbols and emblems, to reflect and includes a violent

including the safeguarding of British citizenship and the

recognition of the union's identity. We in Sinn Fein recognise that there

are many Unionists who are against Irish unity, and there is therefore

an onus on those of us who want unity to persuade unionists and

others of the merits and efficacy of this position. We in Sinn Fein are

up for this challenge. The imposition of Brexit, despite the

vote of the people in the north to remain, underlies the undemocratic

nature of participation at the unequal relationship between London

and Belfast. Now is the time to look to the future and talk about the

plan and to deliver a new and lighted Ireland. The future and

cottages proposition lies in the hands of the people of the North and

the South. The Good Friday agreement which makes the Irish Embassy

achievement legislator unity is the choice of the people of North and

south. The B unification is about more than adding the North to the

south, it is about building on what is best in both two distractions.

Success of British secretaries of State have said, and this was

supported by Unionist leaders, that there is no barometer which suggests

that there would be a change in attitude. I have a very simple

question, if they believe that they would win the day in such a

referendum, then the sensible thing for them to do from the perspective

is not to make that argument but to have the referendum and put it to

the test of public opinion. Martin McGuinness,

and Alex has joined me Why is Sinn Fein launching this

discussion now, do you think? They have been doing this for some

time, I could go back to Unionist outrage in the cover more

conversations in the reconciliation last week, it is partly because the

uncomfortable conversation they need is with their own people. Across the

stock instrument they are stuck with the DUP and in Northern Ireland,

they also have an deck any talking about United after Brexit. They have

to try and find some kind of relevance for themselves.

Meantime there's a head of steam building around the idea

that the Pope might visit Northern Ireland in 2018?

As an atheist I couldn't care one way or the other but I think the

response from the DUP is interesting, they set out a bland

statement and then changed it to say that Arlene Foster would meet him.

They would find a form of words to say that he is there, if Arsenal

visit but also as head of the Vatican State. But some church

leaders have welcomed it. A huge change from 20 years ago when there

would have been uproar. It seems to be is different now to what it was

several decades ago. But there are still do romantic twist and turns as

far less is is concerned. It is interesting when you look at Arlene

Foster's statement that she says she would meet him in his capacity as

head of state. The speculation was that he was coming on a pastoral

visit and not as head of state but you see don't read too much into

that. Had read too much into it. We had Martin McGuinness meeting the

Queen in essence as head of state, it would look at radius from the

national 's point of violent was to find a way to say I will not meet

him unless the condition is met. They will knew of the form of words

to say they see him in one capacity but he's also visiting Northern

Ireland as his capacity as head of state of the Vatican. She has to

meet him, she's going to meet him, no matter what happens in the

meantime she will shake his hand. There will be some Unionists, a

small minority, there will be uncomfortable about this and who

will not presumably choose to be quiet about it. There is an

evangelical section of the DUP, and in one sense the time is gone, they

are no longer running unionism. They're certainly no longer running

the DUP. She knows she has to do it, the party will accept it and that is

all that matters. We live in interesting times. Happily, yes.

That's over now. We back tomorrow night. Until then, goodbye. Thank

you. I was asking myself,

"What would I do?"