30/04/2013 Stormont Today


30/04/2013

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Hello, and welcome to Stormont Today. Coming up on the programme:

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more care homes are to close, this time in the west of Northern

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Ireland. The Health Minister defends the move towards more care

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at home. We're very clear early - focused on what we want to do, and

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that's create better options for elderly people to maintain their

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independence and dignity. We'll be joined by the chair of Store moth's

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health committee. Also tonight, all transport issues were on the agenda

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from the A15 to Narrow Water Bridge. We have run out of road or bridge

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when it comes to this matter being concluded, and if that doesn't

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bring people to their senses, I don't know what will. Martin

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McGuinness gets his acronyms in a twist. I think the work that is

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happening from the IRA - sorry - the IFA. Whoa! So the Western

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Health Trust has joined the northern and southern trusts in

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announcing the closure of its residential homes. Relatives and

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residents were told the plans. It's all part of major change approved

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by the Health Minister last month which is aimed at allowing more

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elderly people to be looked after at home. This is what Edwin Poots

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took -- told Newsline. We want to create better options for elderly

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people to maintain their independence and dignity, and we

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believe that support and care is a much better option for the elderly.

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However, there is an issue about how we handle those elderly people

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who are currently in residential homes who are content, and we

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understand that it can cause a huge amount of stress to them if there

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is a proposal to move them. What we're looking at is a

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different form of care. The care will provide support for people who

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become frail and will have to move into residential care, and that is

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different option for them. I think the people who are currently in

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care, those are the people we need to demonstrate to that we will

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treat them with dignity, care and respect, and the trust have

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identified they want to close 100% of homes. There's a consultation

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exercise to take place, and it's very important we listen. I am

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joined by the chair of the health committee at Stormont, Sinn Fein's

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Sue Ramsey. We know it was proposed closing 50%

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of care homes with a much greater emphasis on caring for people in

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their own homes, supported care, it's called system that something

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you're happy with in principle? think most people are happy with

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the vision of transforming your care. The committee is happy with

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the vision. What struck me is when you're building a house, you have

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your plans and put your foundation in. We need to see the foundations

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around Transferring your Care. And closing residential homes now

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actually doesn't go a long way to people buying into this. We have

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the cart before the horse - the closure of the homes before the

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framework that'll succeed them in place? That's some of the stuff we

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need to tease out, and we have the committee meeting tomorrow. We'll

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be asking the Chief Executive of the board to answer those questions,

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but the concern is some people don't know what Transforming Your

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Care is, and eldly people who have been in homes - some of them 10, 15,

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20 years are being told the home will close. We need to have people

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buy to this it to have the plan in place. The Minister says that

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within three to five years, 50% are closing. Now it seems all the homes

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are closing. You, as chair of the committee, and your committee, in

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allowing the Minister to go down this road - if he said 50% of homes

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would close - that's what he expected would happen - was that

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not the green light to the trusts to close all the homes, which was

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exactly what they have done? It was inevitable? I don't think we have

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missed the trick. It's not a final decision, and tomorrow, as chair of

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the Health committee, I have asked Mr Compton to come up and explain

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as the Health and Social Care Board to explain what this means. The

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final decision rests with the Minister. If he's saying 50% of the

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homes will close between three and five years, and the trust says

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we're doing it now, he needs to say, I am the Minister. You'll do as I

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say. That's an interesting question as to where the balance of power

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lies. It's actually up to the trusts to deliver the health care

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on the ground. That's not the Minister's responsibility.

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deliver on his proposals and his policy, and the Transforming Your

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Care policy is about ensuring more services are available at ground

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level. This proposal coming from the trust is proposing homes close

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right away. The Minister told us it would be 50% within three to five

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years. He has serious questions to ask of his trust's Chief Executives.

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He was asked on BBC Newsline tonight, do these announcements go

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too far? Is it too far to say, as three of the trusts have said, that

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a hundred percent of their trusts would close? He didn't say it was

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going too far. He said it was going further than he expected. There are

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currently proposals. As the Minister, he has the duty to ensure

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his policies and strategy is implemented. If the trust is going

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beyond what he has requested, he needs to question them. You can

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understand it because the trusts are under pressure. They're having

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to make savings left, right and centre. This is one way of doing it

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and doing it in a relatively straight forward way and saving

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quite a lot of money in a pretty straight forward way.Ing see the

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attraction of it. By attacking the most vulnerable. Is that the way

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you see it? The elderly and our children we always see as the most

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vulnerable in our society. The issue - we would then need to pay

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for that care, so if that care is in the community, we'll have to pay

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for it anyway. If people need care in private, homes will have to pay

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for it, so we need to look at efficiency savings, but not by

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attacking those who are the most vulnerable. That's very colourful

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language to be using. You're obviously not very happy about it,

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but what are you actually going to do about it? We have John Compton

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in front of the committee tomorrow and will be questioning him. The

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other issue we'll be dealing with within the committee is over

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187,000 cancelled appointments last year within the trust, cancelled by

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the hospital and by consultants. That's where we can get efficiency

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savings which will free up more. Interesting to watch how the debate

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unfolds in the weeks and months ahead. Thank you very much for

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joining us. Cross-border relations were top of the agenda when the

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assembly convened this morning. First up was the Deputy fir pir --

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fish fish with matters all iernd. - 2020 period compared with 2007,

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2013 - obviously, that's disappointing. We continue to

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ensure the final agreement delivers a flexible cap particularly in

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relation to the move to flat-rate payments. I would like the thank

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the Deputy Prime Minister for - Deputy First Minister for His

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statement, and I wonder, could he update us, was the A5 and the

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Narrow Water Bridge, these very important cross-border projects

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discussed? Our Government are fully implemented to the A5 project.

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Everybody is conscious of the recent judicial review where a

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judgment was made in the context of one of 12 objections. The Minister

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decided not to appeal, but to go for a remedy. It appears that that

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remedy will probably require a period of some - a year to 18

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months to resolve. There is still a total commitment from the checktive

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and the Irish Government to the scheme. We also took the

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opportunity during the course of the discussions with Mr Gilmore to

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remind him that the First Minister and I in previous conversations

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with Enda Kenny pressed the Irish Government to ensure the decision

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they took to withdraw from their part of the scheme with the

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exception of 50 million, that that needed to be reviewed on an ongoing

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basis. The Taoiseach actually gave us a commitment that would be

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reviewed in 2013. In relation to the Narrow Water Bridge, the

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Department of Finance and Personnel are currently undertaking a

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rigorous critical review of that bridge project. I hope there is an

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early and positive decision, given that the vital importance of this

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project - and certainly from my own experience and the Speaker himself

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knows well the impact that a very small bridge in our own city has

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made not just to the architecture of the city, but to the psychology

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of the citizens. What do you think the legacy will be at the end of

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the presidency, that people can look back on and say, we have moved

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forward. This was our main achievement during that six months'

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period? Well, obviously, the presidency has been held by the

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Irish Government, and I think from their perspective, we had our own

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discussions with them prior to taking over the presidency. The big

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concern was around whether or not there would be agreement at the

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European level on the budgets, and the last time the First Minister

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and I were in Brussels, the British Government in particular were

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getting a very bad press from European leaders.

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That has now been resolved. At a governmental level, there is

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agreement. At European level, there is agreement. The only body now to

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adjudicate this - and I think the vote will probably come in June -

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will be the European Parliament. If that goes through, if the cap

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negotiations go through in the way in which they have designed them, I

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think the Irish Government will consider that to be a major success

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for them. The Deputy First Minister there who touched on the A5 road

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project, and the transport theme continued with statements from the

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Environment Minister and the Minister for Regional Development,

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but it was building bridges, not roads, they were concerned with,

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and in particular, the Narrow Water Bridge project between Counties

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Down and Lythe. Let's be frank about this. We're at the 11th hour

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or one minute to midnight or whatever way you want to convey it.

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We have run out of road or out of bridge when it comes to this matter

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being concluded. President Barrosso opens up the European funding door

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for us, a door that in my view we have a lot more to do in order to

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get through, and that's a comment upon on my own department as it is

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a comment upon Government. So how do we reconcile that Barroso opens

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a door for European funding, and we close the door when it comes to

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Narrow Water? I think that doesn't add up politically. I think it is

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disrespectful to the European authorities, and I think, more than

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anything else, it cuts off our nose to spite our face. So I think that

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if this matter doesn't conclude itself in the next couple of weeks,

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then we may be past one minute to midnight in terms of getting us

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over the line, and therefore, I think that there is only one way

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forward, and that is make the decision, and make the decision now.

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There is a battle - an ongoing battle, it seems to me, a turf war,

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of a type, competing between the SDLP and Sinn Fein as to the

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ownership of this project and how - and who should celebrate who can

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claim victory with it. I have no interest in that. It's not - that

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is not relevant to the work of me or my department. I'm dealing with

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the legal processes which I have to deal with. I will consider after

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the consultation period has ended whether or not I am bound to

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consider, actually - whether or not it will be necessary to bring

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forward a public inquiry. I am aware that the Minister for Finance

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and Personnel has to consider the business case. I have no doubt that

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he will consider that on its proper basis. But it is not helped to have

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to say by unnecessary political grandstanding, which has been

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engaged in by the two Nationalist parties in that area attempting to

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Let's talk about a couple of these projects, the Narrow Water Bridge.

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It was said this was the 11th hour, definitely going to happen, has to

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happen. Not sure where the DUP stands on it. Do you think it is

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going to happen? I think it probably will. I think they're used to be a

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phrase about people playing silly games and I think that he is trying

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to make a point about the political issue. Quite why, I don't know. It

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is an �18 million project, a lot of jobs, good for tourism,

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communication, trade. This is happening as part of an EU peace. We

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had people saying yesterday they were trying to complete a euros with

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the Executive saying they would not go ahead would be a very negative

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message to the European Union about the interest that people of Northern

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Ireland have about the money. We also have a very unclear picture as

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far as A5 is concerned. Martin McGuinness said he is still

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committed to its construction. is a lot of confusion around the

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project, with the question of the land that has been vested and now

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apparently has been given back to the farmers, from whom it was vested

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in the first place. That is a muddle at the moment and how it is going to

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be resolved would be pretty tricky. Maybe they have spent the money they

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have already got. On the bigger picture, it looks like it is going

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to take a few years. The Irish government said they are politically

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committed to seeing the work achieved but, unfortunately, they

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don't have the money saw not financially committed. If things

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pick up in the next few years, maybe the money will come. Ireland is

:15:55.:16:04.
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still in a time of austerity. It could be quite a while before we see

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cars blazing down a motorway in the north-west. A lot of people want to

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see that but, as you say, it could be quite some time. I wanted to get

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your reflections on Sarah Scottish Education Secretary -- Sue Ramsey's

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comments. She took quite a tough line on what has happening. She

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talked about the Minister attacking the most vulnerable in our society.

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That is, as I suggested, pretty colourful language for the Chair of

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the committee to be using, in relation to a minister's position,

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isn't it? It is a sensitive position. If you have an elderly

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parent or grandparent facing that dilemma, you would need some

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certainty. You don't want a situation where the card is put

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before the horse. You want to know that if you're going to have care in

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the community it is going to be proper. If you're not going to have

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proper care then you want a home for your elderly parent or grandparent

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to go to. Very interesting to see quite how that plays out in the

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months ahead. Environmentalists hopes for a Marine

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Management Organisation have suffered a major setback. The

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Assembly has dropped an amendment on the Marine Bill that would have

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created a new organisation to oversee all coastal areas of

:17:18.:17:22.

Northern Ireland. The Alliance MLA Anna Lo tabled the amendment.

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Sustainable development does not seek to stop us from growing our

:17:27.:17:31.

economy. Rather, it aims to put in place a balance of economic, social

:17:31.:17:34.

and environmental measures to ensure we continue to do things effectively

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in the years to come. I asked him why did you not go for, as England

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and Wales, the independent model. The response came back from Scotland

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that they believed they were too small to have an independent MMO.

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Whenever you consider that Scotland accounts for roughly two thirds of

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all of the UK territorial waters, for them to believe that that was

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too small for them to govern, I think really highlights the fact

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that, perhaps, Northern Ireland which is a much smaller percentage

:18:05.:18:15.
:18:15.:18:17.

is far too small. Are we seeing that we want another committee to look

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after Marine? That is the question that has to be asked. I know that

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the juror brought up issues of money and the Minister hopefully will

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reflect on them. I did not hear what his comment was to the cheer at that

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time but I would like to know because, if that is what it is about

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and if we are considering cost of an issue, then, if we bring forward

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legislation, cost will always be an issue. It is a very special place.

:18:49.:18:55.

It has been trashed. It is the only word for it. Vantage have been able

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to scuba dive. When you drive along the worst mussel beds, or what where

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horse mussel beds, it looks like you're diving a ploughed field.

:19:05.:19:10.

Except, a ploughed field is ploughed for a purpose. The purpose is to

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grow new stuff. To manage the land. This has been raped. I listen to

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Mister McDevitt say that when you step into the sea and butcher

:19:22.:19:31.

goggles on you are in a different world. I accept that. If you go to

:19:31.:19:36.

some of the country places you will feel you are in a different world. I

:19:36.:19:40.

don't believe that is an argument just to have a Marine Management

:19:40.:19:48.

Organisation. I think at the heart of many people's frustrations with

:19:48.:19:53.

these institutions, and probably most of the Executive and government

:19:53.:19:59.

departments, is the failure to work together and the mentality that is

:19:59.:20:04.

perceived at the heart of government. I do believe it is

:20:04.:20:11.

perception. I think to not introduce an MMO, or even almost, I suppose,

:20:11.:20:21.
:20:21.:20:26.

be half way house of the Scottish model, -- model... I see this as a

:20:26.:20:31.

model for which this Government can define and reconfigure its ambition

:20:31.:20:37.

over the lifetime of this mandate. The Marine Bill should be followed

:20:37.:20:43.

by a climate change bill. Before the climate change Bill, there should be

:20:43.:20:47.

a second levy bill. After the climate change Bill, there might yet

:20:47.:20:54.

be a national parks bill. The environment Minister. The role

:20:54.:20:59.

of the Public Accounts Committee is to scrutinise the working of public

:21:00.:21:04.

bodies and how they manage their money. Last week, the troubled Fire

:21:04.:21:11.

and Rescue Services was called into these questions on how it operates.

:21:11.:21:16.

There have even management problems. Here is a flavour of

:21:16.:21:18.

seedings in our weekly look at committee business. The problems

:21:18.:21:25.

started to come late in 2009. You are saying today that you are still

:21:25.:21:29.

tried to appoint people. That is four years afterwards. That is

:21:29.:21:33.

taking too long. For years in a culture that has been particularly

:21:33.:21:39.

bad according to this report. This report is damning the organisation.

:21:39.:21:45.

It comes to light in 2009. We are still talking about it in 2013.

:21:45.:21:50.

came to light in 2009. We then had a change of board, change of German, a

:21:50.:21:58.

series of changes. It was around the time of the investigation into the

:21:58.:22:01.

whistleblowing that Peter retired and I then had to have very serious

:22:02.:22:07.

discussions with the cheer as to how to then deal with the situation. I

:22:07.:22:13.

was also talking to the Chief Fire rescue adviser to local communities

:22:13.:22:18.

and government in England. To take advice at the highest level as to

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how to provide interim leadership in a context where there was not a pool

:22:23.:22:32.

of applicants stepping forward. We have had such a turnover. So, yes,

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some things began to emerge in 2009 but the full picture, coming through

:22:36.:22:38.

the whistleblowing, and we need to acknowledge and appreciate that that

:22:38.:22:45.

happened, and make sure that, that came through during 2011. It was a

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gradually emerging picture. If I sound a little bit annoyed it is

:22:49.:22:55.

because, there was a whistleblower in 2002. He gave valuable

:22:55.:22:58.

information that could have resolved all these problems. That

:22:58.:23:03.

whistleblower was sacked. -- sacked from the border during a period of

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suspension. That person was Rosemary Creek. She won't mind me mentioning

:23:08.:23:15.

that. You know it anyway. We are now dealing with a new set of

:23:15.:23:18.

whistle-blowers and we know what happened to them before. We know

:23:18.:23:24.

what happened to others. We know about Mister Boyle has spent several

:23:24.:23:28.

months down in Enniskillen. If you are a professional accountant, has

:23:28.:23:33.

humiliated mustard be to be taken from your posts and sent out to

:23:34.:23:37.

Siberia, so to speak. Doctor McCormick, in view of the evidence

:23:37.:23:44.

before this committee today, do you not think that there is scope for a

:23:44.:23:48.

further deep dive investigation into what was going on, particularly

:23:48.:23:53.

since the current chairperson is not prepared to acknowledge that he did

:23:53.:23:58.

anything wrong, that he was not part of the problem and, in my opinion,

:23:58.:24:07.

quite honestly, should call? I think we need to reflect on all of the

:24:07.:24:10.

conclusions that you reached that were accountable to you and in your

:24:10.:24:16.

report on this issue that that would then go to the Minister, not only to

:24:16.:24:21.

myself but, at that stage, when you make your recommendations, those

:24:21.:24:25.

that we financially consider, my advice, at the present time is that,

:24:25.:24:31.

my judgement is, that we have investigated to inappropriate and --

:24:31.:24:36.

to an appropriate stage. The Social Development Minister has

:24:37.:24:40.

told the Assembly that the restructuring of the Housing

:24:40.:24:43.

Executive in Northern Ireland is in no way predetermined. Nelson

:24:43.:24:46.

McCausland also explain the new form of registration for landlords during

:24:46.:24:51.

Question Time today. Immediately following my statement in February

:24:51.:24:56.

on the proposals, I met with the Housing Executive board and the

:24:56.:25:02.

chief Executive to agree how we could work together to allay staph

:25:02.:25:05.

anxieties throughout the process. My officials have met and will continue

:25:05.:25:09.

to meet with trade unions to ensure staff concerns are raised and keep

:25:09.:25:15.

them as up-to-date on an ongoing basis. With regard to tenants, I

:25:15.:25:20.

have a meeting scheduled with the network established to make sure

:25:20.:25:26.

that tenants have a meaningful involvement. Can ask the Minister if

:25:26.:25:30.

you can reaffirm his previously stated commitment that there will be

:25:30.:25:34.

no predetermined outcome to the future of the Housing Executive?

:25:34.:25:39.

my original statement, I set out a general direction of travel. The

:25:39.:25:44.

details of all of this has still to be worked out. There is a lot of

:25:44.:25:48.

work to be done about getting business case is prepared, to look

:25:48.:25:51.

at various options. There will have to be detailed discussions with

:25:51.:25:54.

attentional funders to see what the best model would be. Therefore,

:25:54.:25:59.

there is nothing predetermined at the moment. They are looking at a

:25:59.:26:06.

direction of travel but nothing else. I informed the Assembly on the

:26:06.:26:10.

15th of January 2013 that it was intended that a landlord

:26:10.:26:17.

registration system would be ready by the summer. While thermal be --

:26:17.:26:20.

may be slippage, work is well underway on the design of the system

:26:20.:26:24.

and a final decision on who will act as the registrar should be made very

:26:24.:26:31.

soon. Can I ask the Minister what specifically is the calls of the

:26:31.:26:41.
:26:41.:26:47.

delay? -- the cause. The civil servants who are working on these

:26:47.:26:52.

working very hard on them. Like most things in life, it is always very

:26:52.:26:56.

difficult to predict exactly, down to the weeks or days, how long it

:26:56.:27:01.

will take to complete a piece of work. I'm sure the member, in all

:27:01.:27:05.

his years of business and other areas of life, will have found his

:27:05.:27:12.

own experience of that fact. The Bangor town Centre master plan

:27:12.:27:16.

produced to lead a major develop meant scheme was needed to

:27:16.:27:20.

regenerate the town centre. Schemes of this size and ambition are

:27:20.:27:24.

complex and challenging to deliver. A number of key steps need to be

:27:24.:27:29.

taken. The first is to assemble the site. My department has completed

:27:29.:27:34.

the first major step by agreeing to purchase the developer's land.

:27:34.:27:38.

Following completion of the sale, my officials will speak to the

:27:38.:27:42.

remaining property owners within the proposed boundary to discuss our

:27:42.:27:47.

plans for the area and to negotiate the purchase of these properties.

:27:47.:27:50.

Work will also be commenced on the planning application, taking

:27:50.:27:54.

approximately two years. Following approval, it will take another two

:27:54.:28:01.

to three years to complete the design and bring on board a contract

:28:01.:28:05.

to construct the scheme. If all progresses smoothly, construction

:28:05.:28:08.

will commence in 2018. The social -- the Social Development

:28:08.:28:13.

Minister. Just before we go, the otherwise businesslike atmosphere

:28:13.:28:17.

today was treated by his accession of politicians getting their

:28:17.:28:21.

transitory twist. Danny Kennedy referred to the Republic as the Free

:28:21.:28:27.

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