Nicola Sturgeon The Andrew Neil Interviews

Just ten days of campaigning until the general election when voters

will decide who represents them in Parliament and who will lead the

country. Which party leader has the best plan for the future? Tonight, I

am joined Labour leader of the Scottish National Party and the

First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. -- I am joined by the

leader of the Scottish National Party.

The SNP has governed Scotland for ten years,

so can we start by agreeing that the performance

of Scottish public services is the responsibility

Er, I take responsibility for the performance

although Scotland's overall budget, of course,

taken at Westminster and our budget has been reduced over the years

since the Conservatives have been in office.

Let's start, then, with Alex Salmond's former Head

"The evidence shows that we - the SNP -

redistributed wealth, improved education or

The sad truth is that pretty much everything we have done

Well, it won't surprise you to hear, Andrew, I don't agree

Let me take education, for example, because it's something I have said

is my top priority and it's something I have recognised we've

got more work to do on, but it's not true to say

that we haven't seen improvements in Scottish education.

If you take the attainment gap, for example, and take Level 5

qualifications, which are broadly equivalent

to the old O Grades and Standard Grades in Scotland, we've seen more

young people achieve those, but we've also seen the gap

between the richest pupils and the poorest pupils almost half.

We've also seen the numbers of the poorest pupils that leave

school with no qualifications halve as well.

So there's real progress being made, but I make

no bones of the fact that

I want us to make more progress, which is why we've now got a major

programme of reform under way in Scottish education.

I'm going to come on to education and the details in a minute.

But overall, this former Head of Policy for Mr Salmond,

I don't accept that the facts and figures bear out that assessment.

You've said we'll come on to education, I'm happy to do so.

If you take health, for example, we've increased the health

We've got the best performing Accident

And I'm going to come on to health in a minute or two.

Let me start with the Scottish economy.

Because it's now growing at less than a quarter

It could be on the brink of recession.

Don't you think that you should end your obsession with independence

and start generating some growth in Scotland?

Well, again, let me take the facts and figures on the economy.

The UK as a whole has seen growth slowing.

Well, we've also had the issues, the problems with North Sea oil

and gas, which has fed through the Scottish supply chain.

But if you look at the GDP performance in Scotland now

the recovery from the prerecession level of GDP has actually been

unemployment is now lower than it is across the UK,

we've seen productivity increase at a faster rate

So as on education, as on health, I'm not sitting here and saying

there's not a big job of work for an SNP Government to do,

but your assessment that, you know, in everything

you want to point to, there's no progress,

is just flatly wrong and the facts and figures bear that out.

Well, it was Mr Bell that was pointing to that, not me.

Well, I don't agree with Mr Bell's assessment.

On the Scottish economy - last year, the UK economy

The Scottish economy grew by less than half a percent.

But you know as well as I do that the difficulties that have been

experienced in the oil and gas sector have a disproportionately

heavy effect in Scotland because of the importance of that

sector to the Scottish economy, so that has been one

of the reasons why we've seen a difference in performance.

But if I look at the recovery of GDP in Scotland from the prerecession

level, it's 1.8% higher, it's less than that

in the rest of the UK, and employment is doing well,

unemployment is lower, we are outperforming the UK in youth

You could be on the brink of a recession.

Well, I am working very hard with the Scottish Government

But we saw figures for the UK GDP just at the end of the week that

showed that there is also a slowing of growth because of

And Scotland is not immune from the impact of the Brexit vote.

But why would the Brexit effect have a bigger impact on Scotland

It hasn't had an effect on British groeth.

It hasn't had an effect on British growth.

If you listen to what I was saying, I wasn't saying the Brexit effect

has had a bigger impact, I actually was saying

that the reason for the different performance in the Scottish economy

is the difficulties in the oil and gas sector.

I think there is - and will continue to be -

a Brexit effect in our economy, but if you listen

I was not saying that that was greater in Scotland

I was pointing to the particular issues in the oil and gas sector.

Your Finance Minister, Mr Mackay, he blamed the economic reality

Well, my view is, there is an impact of Brexit we're seeing in terms

of the value of sterling and the inflation effects in our economy.

But, you know, what you've asked me about...

I don't understand why Brexit would have a disproportionately

But that's what your Finance Minister did.

Well, you're putting something to me that I haven't argued.

5th April 2017, Derek Mackay: The new economic figures -

these are the bad ones I've given - reflected, quote, "The economic

But he wasn't saying that that was disproportionate in Scotland.

But you've asked me about the performance

of the Scottish economy and I'm saying that whether it's

on the recovery of GDP from the prerecession,

whether it's on unemployment - which in Scotland, is lower

than the UK average - whether it's on productivity.

Foreign direct investment into the Scottish economy.

We had the latest EY report out last week showing

for the fifth year in a row, Scotland is the best performing

part of the UK outside of London and the South East.

And when it comes to R investment, we're the best

We see one in 50 foreign investment projects in Europe

So there's much to be positive about in the Scottish economy,

Let's come onto education, you mentioned it at

It's been clear for some time that Scottish education

Official surveys show declines in literacy and numeracy.

Scottish schools are plummeting down global league tables.

Or are you too busy on the second referendum to get

Well, again, as I started out doing, I can point you to a number

of indicators that show improvements in Scottish education and

So the statistics I gave you earlier on on Level 5 qualifications,

not only are we seeing more young people achieving those

those qualifications, we're seeing the gap

between the richest and the poorest narrow,

It's partly because the top 20% aren't doing so well.

It's not because the bottom 20% are doing well.

The PISA survey, the authoritative global survey, showed

that the highest achievers in Scotland were now in decline.

They'd gone from 8.8% to just over 7%.

Well, if you take Tariff scores in Scottish education,

which measure not just the quantity of qualifications that young people

get, but the quality as well, it shows that performance in the top

20% has improved by about 9%, but the performance in the bottom

We've also got more young people - including more of our poorest young

people - going into university than has been the case before.

Now, I say that simply to set the context.

I have been very frank about the fact that I want to see

further improvement in Scottish education.

So that's why we've got a new National Improvement Framework,

it's why we've established an Attainment Fund.

I was talking to a headteacher who stopped me in the street yesterday

to talk about what he described as the 'life-changing impact'

of the new Pupil Equity Fund that we've introduced in

So there's progress there to be positive about,

There's no progress on what matters, which is reading,

Since 2006, on this PISA, the main international study,

Scotland has dropped from 11th to 23rd in reading,

11th to 24th in maths, 10th to 19th in science.

Well, those statistics are from two years ago and I've recognised those.

They predate the reform programme that we've put in place.

You said we're not improving where it matters.

I actually do think the qualifications that our young

people are coming out of school with do matter.

We're seeing more young people coming out with Highers

We're seeing more young people going into university.

We're seeing the positive destinations of young people

And remember, the record of the SNP Scottish Government was assessed

by the Scottish people at the Scottish Parliament election

last year and we won that election with a higher share

of the constituency vote than any party in the entire lifetime

On top of this international study, your own official body on literacy

and numeracy came out with some pretty damning figures

And if you can't get literacy and numeracy right,

I'm not sure what you can get right in education.

The Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy.

Well, firstly, it's not an organisation, it's a survey

It's a sample survey that's based on information in about 12

What we are replacing it with is comprehensive data broken

down not just by local authority, but school by school.

This survey was highly regarded in educational circles, wasn't it?

As First Minister, it doesn't tell me anything

about the performance of individual schools.

So I'm replacing it with something that will give us

but data on every pupil, in every school in the country.

Informed by standardised assessments.

But will you publish the standard assessments for each school?

For each school, we will publish the information on the percentage

of pupils that are meeting the required levels

I want to come back to a point on SSLN because it's important here.

Which is the Survey on Literacy and Numeracy.

Take the performance of young people at S2,

which is where the decline in reading was recorded.

That is measuring S2, second year of secondary school pupils,

against the standards they are supposed to meet

at the end of the third year of secondary school.

We have separate data that shows that by the time those S2 pupils

come out of third year, more than 80% of them are meeting

Now, I'm not suggesting we shouldn't pay a lot

of attention to that survey, but what I'm showing is there's

a lot of other data in Scottish education which sort of tells

a different story from the one you're trying to tell me right now.

Except that this survey provided a benchmark and the results were not

kind to your policies and you've closed it down,

Other global studies have shown Scottish schools

Firstly, you've just sat and quoted an international global study to me,

the PISA study, which Scottish education is part of.

But you pulled out of two others that were global studies, too.

Well, we wanted to focus on making sure we got the information that

gave us the best picture of how Scottish education was performing.

But I have to say, it's an absolute travesty for you to sit here and say

to me that in somehow moving from SSLN...

If you look at the methodological notes at the end of SSLN,

it tells you that that survey is based on something like four

pupils per primary school and 12 pupils per secondary school.

What we are doing is replacing that sample survey that tells you nothing

about local authority performance, it tells you nothing

about individual school performance, with comprehensive data.

All I'm saying is that this was a highly regarded survey that

We are going to be publishing data on every school.

I will be much more accountable as a result

of the more comprehensive data we're publishing.

The Government will be more accountable, local authorities

will be more accountable, and we will absolutely be able

to track the benefits and the performance of schools,

based on the interventions we're now making.

The SNP's great boast is that students don't pay tuition fees

tuition fees in Scotland, if you're Scottish.

You claim it improves social mobility.

So why is it twice as hard for a Scottish kid from a deprived

background to get to university than an English kid

Well, firstly, we're seeing record numbers of Scottish young people

OK, but including record numbers of young people from the most

Well, the second point, which I'm sure is one that

you're well aware of, is the figures don't reflect

what is a very important difference between how young people in Scotland

A much larger proportion of young people in Scotland do higher

education and further education colleges, so what you've just

quoted me there doesn't take account of that.

But what I'm talking about is universities.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the figure you've probably

quoted there is about access to higher education.

No, the figure is from people going from school to university,

and it's almost twice as tough in Scotland from a poorer

The point is, a lot people do higher-education courses

Well, some of them do, some of them don't.

Right, but I'm talking about universities.

Look, I think it is accepted there is a difference in how these

I looked at this because you've said this before.

By and large, the figures of when you leave school to go

to university are comparable for Scotland and England

and they show that it's twice as tough if you're

We're seeing increases in the number of young people from the poorest

backgrounds going to university, that's why we've established

a widening Access Commission that is looking at how

We're the only part of the UK I think still, today,

that has legislated, in terms of fair

We've set targets for equal access by 2013.

We're funding protected places at university...

Only one in 12 at our top universities in Scotland

Well, again, you keep sort of changing the parameters of this.

Well, you said 'top universities', that's not all universities,

Look, are young people from poor backgrounds underrepresented

But we are seeing that improve and we have in train a programme

Why did you cut maintenance grants for poorer students?

We have got the best package of student support

It's a combination of grants and loans.

In England, of course, bursaries, grants, are being

In the last couple of years, we have increased the value

of the grant proportion and have increased the income threshold

at which young people qualify for the maximum grant.

But what we did was establish a minimum income guarantee

for students, which is, yes, a combination of grants

and loans, but we are protecting the continuation of grants

In England, grants, bursaries, have completely been abolished.

But grants in Scotland are lower than they were.

And grants are what matter to working-class kids.

They need them to support themselves through university.

Which is why in Scotland we are not abolishing them

But also in terms of student debt, we have the lowest average student

debt of any of the nations of the UK.

Andrew, the point I'm making to you here, is that I don't sit

here and say we are perfect, and I don't sit here and say

that we don't have challenges to face and work to do to face them,

but what I will defend is the progress we are making,

and also on things like student debt and student grants, we are actually

further advanced in many of these respects than any other part

You're always railing against what you call Tory austerity.

So why did your members of the Scottish Parliament vote

As is the case across the UK, we have a 1% pay cap

Can I just explain the position we are in and the action we have

taken and what I think needs to happen in the future?

We have had that pay cap to try to protect jobs and make sure

that we could support a policy of no compulsory redundancies in our NHS.

Again, a policy that other parts of the UK don't have.

No nurses have been made redundant in England and Wales.

12,000 NHS staff have been made redundant.

There have been redundancies across the NHS.

I would have to double check that, but I think you might be

We have a policy of no compulsory redundancies.

Let me finish this point, because it's important.

We have done two other things that haven't been done

We have given bigger increases to those at the lowest end

And we have also protected what's called progression as people move

That hasn't happened in other parts of the UK.

So if you are a newly qualified nurse in Scotland,

you are actually paid more than you are in any other part

That pay cap has been in place for reasons I don't

What I'm saying now is that if we had changed it,

we would have seen pressure in other ways, in jobs, for example.

But we have sought to protect the lowest income people for that.

So if you are a nurse, you are paid more in Scotland

If you are a registered staff nurse in Scotland on a 12 hour shift,

you will end up with under ?2 less in a 12 hour shift

If you are a newly qualified nurse it's about ?300-?400

If you are at the lowest level of Agenda For Change,

not a nurse, Agenda For Change, it's more than that, about ?1000.

I'm making that point to say we have taken action where we can.

To finish the point about the future - I have been very clear that

as inflation starts to increase, because this pay cap has also been

in place and it's not been easy for anybody in the public sector,

but it's been in place in times of reasonably low inflation.

And you voted to sustain it for another year.

And actually we are about to go into negotiations for

I have been very clear in our manifesto, which we will publish

on Tuesday where we will say more about this, at times

of rising inflation, I don't believe pay caps of that

nature will continue to be sustainable, so we will set out how

So you will change the pay cap in the future?

Let me publish the manifesto on Tuesday.

But I think if you listen to what I'm saying, you will get

a clear hint that we need to have pay deals in the future that

are both affordable but recognise the cost of living pressures that

public sector workers are working under.

We will continue to do what UK governments haven't done

in terms of the NHS, and always accept

the recommendations of the pay review body.

If you do well in this general election, will you use that

to strengthen the case for a second

This election - we put in our manifesto for the Scottish

election last year the idea that Scotland should have

a choice at the end - if there was a vote for Brexit -

So what this election does, I suppose, is determine

whether the people of Scotland think that whether and when Scotland

should have a choice about our future, should be

a decision for the Scottish Parliament

So it will strengthen the case if you do well?

We have got that mandate already and it will underline

But this election will not decide whether or not Scotland

But you called for a second referendum because of Brexit.

You said Scotland was being dragged out of the EU against its will.

So can you confirm that an independent Scotland

would immediately apply for full membership of the EU?

I would want an independent Scotland to be a member of the EU.

But would it apply for full membership?

Well, yes, we would want to be a full member of the EU.

You wouldn't settle for an interim deal or just

We tried to find compromise ground with the Prime Minister,

whereby we would accept we were coming out of the EU,

but we would see if we would keep the whole of the UK,

and if not that then Scotland, in the single market.

But you're talking here in the context of independence.

Let me set out clearly, I would want Scotland

If, and it is an if, because I don't control the Brexit

process and I can't foresee exactly how that will unfold,

if Scotland had already been taken out of the EU and there was a period

in which we had to get back into the EU, if it was necessary,

then we would want to protect our single market membership

So there could be an interim arrangement?

If that was necessary, but the objective would be,

and we have heard people and voices within the Commission,

the Deputy Chancellor of Germany, the senior European parliamentarians

talk about the fact it would not be a complicated process for Scotland

to become a member of the EU if we were independent.

I think in this election - because I want Scotland

to have a choice, not now, but at the end of

the Brexit processed when the options are clear.

This election will give Scotland another opportunity.

It gives us the opportunity to have our voice heard generally

in the House of Commons but specifically in terms

of the Brexit negotiations, so we can try to make sure that

there's not a deal that is bad for Scotland.

The Prime Minister says that there will not be a second

If she wins and sticks to that, what will you do?

Let's give the people of Scotland the chance to have their say in this

And you have covered Scottish politics for a long time,

I was going to say probably longer than I've been alive,

but that would upset you midway through an interview which probably

Not really, I'd just like you to answer the question.

What would you do if the Prime Minister does not

I think that if the SNP win the election on June 8th in Scotland -

and I take nothing for granted - but if the SNP win the election,

having won the Scottish election last year on the strength

of a manifesto commitment that was very clear,

and in the interim the Scottish parliament having backed that,

then I think that position of the Prime Minister is unsustainable.

But if she doesn't change, what will you do?

We have an election in ten days' time -

I'm not going to sit here and speculate about that.

The truth is, there's not much you can do, is there?

I think in politics positions quickly become unsustainable.

We have seen in the last few days - and you highlighted this

in your interview with her - that this is not a Prime Minister

who is very good at holding position when she feels it's under pressure.

She's a Prime Minister who has seemed to perfect

You say that a vote for the SNP will strengthen your hand

And so should Wales and so should Northern Ireland.

But again, the Prime Minister has brought about this election.

That gives the people of Scotland the opportunity,

and I'm saying to people in Scotland, whether you voted Leave

or Remain, whether you voted Yes or No in 2014, this

is an opportunity to strengthen Scotland's voice in these Brexit

talks and strengthen the influence we have in terms of the positions

But Mrs May doesn't want you in the talks, and Mr Barnier,

the lead EU negotiator, doesn't want you in the talks.

I think in terms of the Prime Minister's position,

and Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, said not that long ago

that she thought Scotland and the Scottish Government and me

as First Minister should be involved in deciding

So if the SNP wins this election, it strengthens our hand.

Because the danger Scotland faces right now, and the danger in my view

that the whole of the UK faces right now, is not just Brexit,

but the extreme Brexit that is being pursued by the Tories

that threatens tens of thousands of jobs in Scotland.

So on this, as on so many other things, if you want

Scotland's voice to be heard, if you want Scotland's

interest to the fore, rather than just Tory MPs

who will rubber-stamp whatever Theresa May wants,

the only way to secure that is to vote SNP.

You complain that powers being sent back to London from Brussels

might not be passed on to Edinburgh, but under your plan,

any return of powers to Edinburgh, you will then send back to Brussels.

These are issues that the people of Scotland will scrutinise

and debate if we are in another independence referendum.

I believe Scotland as an independent member state of the EU

would have a much greater voice than we've had as a part

Theresa May is the one who wants to pursue Brexit and wants

If that's what she's doing, then to use that as a process

to centralise power in the UK, or, in areas that are under

the Scotland Act devolved to the Scottish Parliament,

I do think that would be unacceptable.

If we were in the EU, we would continue to

Then you would have to send them back.

But we would be representing Scottish interest as a member state.

Let's be in no doubt here, what we have is a Prime Minister

that seems to want to centralise powers, not just from Scotland,

but Wales and Northern Ireland as well, and I think it would be

unacceptable to use Brexit to do that.

You would rather see Jeremy Corbyn than Theresa May as Prime Minister?

I don't want to see a Tory government.

I don't particularly like looking at the state of UK politics just now

I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is credible as

It's got to be one or the other and I think you would

I would actually rather see ultimately Scotland be

Of course, but that's not the choice, as you've said.

I think, even with narrowing polls, I think it's highly likely

that the Tories are going to win this election, so what matters

for Scotland is that we have the strongest possible voice.

We know the damage Tory governments do to Scotland.

If you found that your SNP contingent in Westminster

was in a pivotal position, because perhaps Mr Corbyn wins,

but perhaps not by much, or is only the largest party,

would the SNP work with Mr Corbyn to raise taxes

We've got our own tax policies and we have put them forward already

in terms of the taxes we control in Scotland.

UK-wide, would you work with Mr Corbyn to raise taxes?

I don't agree with all Jeremy Corbyn's tax policies.

And I understand why, so bear with me.

If it is, will you work with Mr Corbyn on his tax and spend?

We will work for progressive policies, and we will work

for the policies we put forward in our manifesto.

If there was to be a hung parliament, of course we would look

to be part of a progressive alliance that pursued progressive policies.

But let's get back to the reality of this election.

The reality of this election, even with the narrowing of the polls,

is that we are going to face a Tory government perhaps

My priority in this election is to say to the people of Scotland,

if you want Scotland's interests to be protected and our voice heard,

then you've got to vote SNP to make sure that's the case.

Voting Tory delivers Tory MPs who will rubber-stamp Theresa May.

Voting Labour in Scotland risks letting the Tories in.

One final thing on Mr Corbyn - he wants to raise

Would you broadly agree with that? No.

I don't agree right now with the proposition that we should

reduce the headline rate of corporation tax, but I don't

What I would like to see, and again my manifesto will say more

about this on Tuesday, I think we should be targeting

Given the productivity challenge we've got,

I think we should be targeting support to encourage businesses

to invest in plant and machinery and also to take on workers.

Mr Salmond says the Labour manifesto is actually an imitation of the SNP

I think it shows Scotland is leading the way in progressive policies.

So Scotland is the first Corbynista government?

Free tuition, Scotland is leading the way in progressive

To answer your question directly, yes, I'm very proud of that.

So you are proud of being a forerunner for Mr Corbyn?

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as you know.

Nicola Sturgeon, thank you for being with us

Thank you. Thank you.