Theresa May The Andrew Neil Interviews

In a little over two weeks, voters go to the polls

in the general election to choose who will represent them

in Parliament, and who will lead the country.

So which of the party leaders has the best plan for the future

of the United Kingdom?

Tonight I'm talking to the leader of the Conservative Party

and the woman hoping to remain prime minister, Theresa May.

Prime Minister, you started this campaign with a huge,

double-digit lead in the polls.

It's now down to single digits in some polls.

What's gone wrong?

Well, Andrew, there's only one poll that counts

in any election campaign, as I'm sure you know

from your long experience, and that's the one that takes place

on the 8th of June when people have actually cast their votes.

When they have made that choice, which is a crucial choice -

I think this genuinely is the most crucial election I have seen

in my lifetime because it's about getting Brexit negotiations

right, getting the right deal for Britain from Europe,

and, going beyond that, a plan for a stronger

Britain for the future.

And I believe that I've set out my vision for that strength

in negotiations and that stronger plan and the choice is,

who's going to be doing those negotiations, me or Jeremy Corbyn?

So why do you think your lead is narrowing?

As I say, the only poll that counts is the one that takes

place on the 8th of June.

What I'm doing, what I and my team are doing, is going out around

the country talking to people, hearing from them, and talking

to them about this crucial choice that the country will face

on the 8th of June.

Because, you know, so much depends on us getting those

Brexit negotiations right.

It's not just the next five years but it's beyond the next five years.

Our standard of living, our place in the world.

And you need a strong hand in those negotiations and you need strength

in those negotiations, and, as I say, there's only

going to be a choice between two people as to who is sitting opposite

those 27 European countries, me or Jeremy Corbyn.

But could you be in a little bit of trouble now?

You were so sure of winning that you thought you could get away

with a load of uncosted and half-baked policies.

No, I've never taken anything for granted about this election.

I called this election because I think it is important

that the country has certainty over the next five years,

has the strong and stable leadership that I think it needs,

as I've just explained, particularly for those

Brexit negotiations.

And what I saw was that other parties were trying to frustrate,

promising to try to frustrate those Brexit negotiations,

so I thought it was right to call an election and ask people

to make that choice.

But your policies are uncosted and half-baked, aren't they?

No.

What we have set out in the manifesto is a series

of policies which address what I see and what I think are

the five great challenges that we face as a country.

What I have tried to be is to show people that actually

if we are going to build that stronger Britain, we have got to be

willing to face up to these challenges and fix them.

Well, let's look at social care for the elderly.

Four days ago, your manifesto rejected a cap on social care costs.

Today you announced a cap.

That sounds pretty half-baked.

Nothing has changed from the principles on social care

policy that we set out in our manifesto.

Let me just explain, if I may, why I think it's important,

why this is one of the great challenges we face,

our ageing society.

Just one figure.

In ten years' time there will be 2 million more

people over the age of 75.

Our social care system will collapse unless we do something about it.

We could try and pretend the problem isn't there and hope

that it will go away, but it won't.

It will grow each year.

We could play politics with it as the Labour Party is doing.

Or we could show how we can fix it and that's what I've done.

But you say nothing has changed.

Jeremy Hunt, on the day you launched your manifesto,

last Thursday, the Health Secretary, he said, yes, we are dropping

the cap and we are being completely explicit in our manifesto,

we're dropping it.

We don't think it's fair.

Today you announced a cap.

And Jeremy was talking about the...

Of course Andrew Dilnot had brought forward previous

proposals for a cap, but Jeremy also went on to say

that we wanted to have was a system that was fair to taxpayers,

that was fair to all generations, and that's what we're doing.

But it is a cap, Prime Minister.

Your manifesto rejects a cap, it gives a reason why

you don't want a cap, now you're going to have a cap.

You need to be honest, I would suggest, and tell

the British people you've changed your mind.

What I'm doing...

First of all, Andrew, I'm being absolutely honest

with the British people about the big challenge that we face

and absolutely honest with them about the need for us to deal

with this now, to start fixing it now.

Now what I've put forward is a social care policy which means

that people won't have to worry if they are sitting there month

after month worrying about money coming out of their bank account

to pay for their care, worrying about how long that will last.

They won't have to worry because they won't have to be paying

during their lifetime.

They won't have to worry that they're going to have to sell

their house during their lifetime.

And they'll be able to pass ?100,000 onto their families when they die,

that's a protected ?100,000.

What I've done today is I've seen the scaremongering, frankly,

that we've seen over the weekend, I've seen the way that Jeremy Corbyn

wants to sneak into Number Ten by playing on the fears

of old and vulnerable people and I've clarified what we will be

putting in the green paper which I set out in the manifesto.

So Jeremy Corbyn is now rewriting your manifesto?

No, not at all!

That's what it sounds like, you've reacted to him.

No, we haven't.

Andrew, we have not rewritten the manifesto.

The principles on which we have based our social care policy remain

absolutely the same.

We need to ensure that we have long-term

sustainability in social care.

We need to be able to ensure we can fund social care for the future.

We're doing the honest thing about putting a proposal

to the British people and they will make

their choice on that.

How can it be honest, Prime Minister, to reject a cap

in your manifesto and four days later say, we're

going to have a cap?

What's honest about that?

What we set out in our manifesto was a series of principles.

It was to say to people, first of all, this is a big issue,

we need to address it, and we are being honest that we must

fix it and that's what I want to do.

I'm not going to bury my head in the sand, I'm not

going to play politics with it, which is what Jeremy

Corbyn is doing.

You're just going to change your mind.

I'm going to fix it.

What I've seen is that people have been worried by some of the things

that the Labour Party has been claiming, and others indeed,

the Liberal Democrats too, about what our policy means.

In some cases the complete opposite of what our policy is.

But when Labour said you were against a cap,

they were right until today, you were against the cap.

What we have done is clarified what will be in this green paper.

We were very clear.

Here is our social care policy, here is what we're doing.

We want to protect people, we want people not to have the worry,

day to day, about being able to pay for their social care.

That's why we are fixing this problem, that's why we're

putting this into place.

What I have said today is I've heard the scaremongering,

I've seen how Labour want to try to sneak

into Number Ten, Jeremy Corbyn wants to try to get into Number Ten

by playing on fears, by misrepresenting our policy.

What we're doing is ensuring people will not have to sell their house

during their lifetime.

They won't have to worry about those monthly bills for their care,

and they'll be able to protect more money than they have been

before for their families.

But it's a cap on lifetime social costs which worry people as well.

I mean, this must be the first time in modern history that a party has

actually broken a manifesto policy before the election!

No.

What we have done, Andrew, I set out in my manifesto

the challenges that we need to address as a government.

And I've been very clear with people.

There are two ways you can approach this issue.

You can say to people, we have an ageing society,

our system will collapse unless we do something about it,

that's what I'm saying.

You can ignore it, put your head in the sand, or you can try

and play politics with it.

I think it's only fair to people to say, this is a problem

and we need to fix it now, that's what I want to do.

I want to fix it so people don't have the worry

about their social care costs.

Now that you're in favour of a cap, can you give us an idea

of what the cap might be, the amount we'll have

to pay for social care?

What we're going to do, as we said in our manifesto,

is publish, we referred to the green paper, of course a green paper,

many people may not realise a green paper is a consultation.

So we want to take people's views, the views of charities,

the views of others, on how the system

should be operating.

What I've said today is that we will have in that

consultation that concept of an absolute limit on the costs

that people have to pay.

So we're protecting people for the future, we're providing

a system that provides sustainability in our social

care for the future, and we got an ageing population

and we need to do this otherwise our system will collapse.

Why did you not put the consultation on a cap in your manifesto?

Instead, your manifesto rejects a cap.

No, what we've put in the manifesto is that we will have a consultation

and the principles on which our social care policy will be based.

That I think was the right thing to do.

Now, if we are re-elected, we will have that consultation.

But I think the key issue is that there's a choice

here between parties, a choice between Jeremy Corbyn,

who is playing politics with this, doesn't want to address this issue

of an ageing society.

You're not playing politics with this, Prime Minister?

No, I'm not, Andrew.

You came out against a cap.

You're now in favour of a cap because of a backlash,

that's not playing politics?

No, Andrew, what I'm worried about is the way in which there have

been fake claims about our policy which are deliberately trying

to scare old and vulnerable people.

What I've done is addressed that issue today and I'm very clear that

whoever is in government, whoever is Prime Minister,

whether it is me or Jeremy Corbyn, we need to address this issue,

we need to fix it and that's what I'm going to do.

All right, let me move on now.

Because many people have said your manifesto is quite vague

when it comes to how you're going to pay for your spending

pledges so let's see if we can get some clarity tonight.

How are you going to pay for the extra ?8 billion for the NHS?

Andrew, when I go around the country and talk to people about what we're

going to do in government, what people want to know is,

are we actually going to have the strong economy that

enables us to pay for the NHS and pay for the public

services that people want.

In our manifesto we have put some examples of how we're

going to change the way money is used, on winter fuel

payments, for example, we will means test that.

I asked about the extra money for the NHS, where will the extra

8 billion come from?

Andrew, what we have done, if you look at our record,

is shown that we can put record sums of money into the National

Health Service at the same time as we are ensuring

that we are building that strong economy.

And that's what we'll do for the future.

Our economic credibility is not in doubt.

It is the Labour Party who is in the dock when it comes

to economic credibility.

No, but the ability to answer this question may be

in doubt, Prime Minister.

Let me try one more time.

Where will the extra 8 billion for the NHS come from?

What we have done over the last six years, six, seven years,

and what we will do in the future is ensure that we have the strong

economy, the growing economy that enables us to generate the funds

to put into our public services.

I've identified in the manifesto some specific areas where we will

change the way in which money is being used and I've just

referenced winter fuel...

But that's not extra money, that's moving money around.

That's what I'm saying, I've identified...

So it's not an extra 8 billion?

It is an extra 8 billion that is going to go

into the National Health Service but I've identified some areas

where we will be changing the way money is used.

But crucially, what you need to be able to ensure that you can fund

the NHS is the strong and growing economy.

As I say, our economic credibility is not on the line,

it is the Labour Party that is in the dock on that.

Well, the Labour Party have given us costings and given us revenues.

You can't give me...

Let me ask another way, is it all new money?

The Labour Party have given you costings which

actually don't add up.

There's a ?58 billion black hole in the Labour Party manifesto.

That's the equivalent of half the sum we spend

on the NHS in a year.

What we will do is ensure that we generate, by ensuring

we have a strong economy and growth in the economy, we generate

the funds and just look at our track record.

It's what we've done over the last few years.

Is the 8 billion all new money?

There will be 8 billion more money going into

the National Health Service at the end of the parliament.

That's a real terms increase per head every year.

The manifesto pledges "the most ambitious programme of investment

and buildings and technology the NHS has ever seen."

Is that part of the 8 billion?

No, that's separate, because it's the money you spend,

as I'm sure you know, Andrew, but the money you spend

on buildings and capital is separate from the money you spend

on a day to day.

So where will that money come from?

That money will be following, there's a report that was done

on the NHS, the Naylor Report, which set out what was needed

and we are backing the proposals in the Naylor Report.

So how much?

It's ?10 billion.

And where will that come from?

That will come from a variety of sources.

It's capital money, it's separate from the 8 billion that's

going into the National Health Service.

But any of this money can only be provided if we've got the strong

economy to fund it and that's where one of the crucial differences

between what I'm proposing and what the Labour Party

is proposing comes, because what I'm setting out in my manifesto

is the ways in which we can deal with the economy in the future

and crucial to that, crucial to that is getting

the Brexit negotiations right.

And that's why this is so important.

That's why who is sitting around that negotiating table 11 days

after the election...

That's a point you've made, Prime Minister.

I make it again because it's important and crucial

to this election.

But let me come back to the NHS.

Our hospitals have just endured their worst 12

months in ten years.

A record number of urgent operations were cancelled.

A string of targets, from emergency care to routine

care to cancer care, have been missed.

What you're promising is too little, too late.

I accept that the NHS has missed some of its targets,

but targets aren't the be all and end all.

What matters, actually, is the quality of patient care.

Let me give you an example.

You mentioned accident and emergency targets.

Yes, we did see pressure on A over the winter.

What matters is not that you tick a box on a target.

What matters is that you say, what does that tell us

that we need to do?

That is why we've already announced that we're

going to make some changes.

We're putting some extra money already into accident and emergency

and hospitals around the country, because sometimes people turn up

at A who don't need to go into hospital.

They need to see a GP.

By changing the way A operates,

we can ensure that the patient gets the care that they need

and we see hospitals relieved from some of that pressure.

That's about ensuring that patient care is what comes first.

That's what we're about.

You've ruled out a rise in VAT,

but not national insurance or income tax.

Why?

Because I want to be clear that as a Conservative Party

in government, as we always have been, we're a party

that believes in lower taxes.

I have every intention of reducing taxes on businesses

and working families.

But I want to ensure that when we do that,

we can do that in a sustainable way.

So national insurance and income tax could go up?

I'm very clear that it's our intention to reduce taxes.

But you haven't ruled out rises in these two taxes.

When people come to make their choice on June 8th,

they will see a choice between a Conservative Party that's

always been a party of lower tax, that's believed in lower tax...

Except that the tax burden is now the highest for 30 years

under your government.

And under the Conservative government since 2010,

we've seen 4 million people taken out of paying income tax

altogether and a tax cut for 31 million taxpayers.

We believe in lower taxes.

But we also believe in ensuring that we're developing

the strong economy that enables us to fund our public services.

But you tried to raise national insurance for the self-employed

in the Budget a couple of months ago.

You were forced to retreat.

Can you rule out that you would try that again?

We said we were taking those plans off the table.

We have asked Matthew Taylor to do a report on the new forms

of employment, and we will look at the results of that

report when it comes in.

But we've removed the proposals we put in the Budget.

But you could bring them back.

We need to look at how the employment market

is working at the moment.

That's why I'm clear that I want to put in extra

protections for workers.

Things are changing in the way people are being employed,

and we need to ensure that we recognise that

and protect workers.

But in all of these issues, we can only do these things,

we can only make sure we're able to lower taxes

if we have the strong economy.

Fundamental to that, of course, is getting the Brexit deal right

and getting those negotiations right and having both a strong hand

in those negotiations, but also the strength of leadership.

That's a point you've made several times.

I want to come to the people who are just about managing.

They're not the poorest of the poor,

but they are not affluent either.

Life can be a struggle.

You say you're on their side, but inflation is now rising

faster than average pay, so living standards are being squeezed

and you've frozen the in work benefits

for almost 7 million people. In what way are you on their side?

If you look at the issues around people who are...

As you say, I talked about people who were just about managing

and sometimes find life a struggle

when I came into Downing Street last year.

There are a number of ways in which I want to support those people.

On the cost of living, I want to build a strong economy

with higher paid jobs.

I also want to help with things like energy bills.

That's why we're going to cap rip-off energy price rises.

But in what way are you on their side?

You've taken away ?280 a year from their in work benefits

because of the freeze.

How is that being on their side?

Being on their side is about a variety of actions.

Not taking money away.

These are people who want to ensure that their children

have a good school place.

That's why we have plans to increase the number of good school places.

They do want to ensure that their NHS is being funded.

That's why we have plans to ensure that we're putting those

record amounts of money into the National Health Service.

They want more secure jobs.

They'd like better pay.

They'd like their living standards to be rising.

I want to see higher paid jobs in this country.

Doing that is about building a stronger economy.

It's about having a vision for the future.

That's what we've got.

We've set out a draft industrial strategy,

a modern industrial strategy to really develop the economy

across all parts of the country so that we don't see prosperity

concentrated in certain areas, but prosperity across

the whole country.

How many pensioners will lose their winter fuel allowance?

We will means-test the winter fuel allowance,

but once again, we will consult.

We will ask charities and organisations

at what level that should be set.

So you don't know.

Pensioners watching tonight won't know.

The very rich will lose, that's clear.

The very poor will probably keep it.

But the vast in between, you cannot tell them tonight

whether they will get up to ?300 or not this coming winter?

What we're doing will ensure that the least well-off pensioners

will have their winter fuel payments protected.

But we will consult.

I think it's right that we take those views of charities

and organisations working with older people and others to look

at where that level should be set.

But overall in the changes we're making and the policies

we're adopting, I am going to be protecting pensioners

for the future.

But you can't tell them whether they would get their winter

fuel allowance or not.

It's a vague promise, uncosted.

You don't know.

We will means-test winter fuel payments.

I have also added that we will be talking to people about this,

asking their views on where this should be set, not just setting it

here in the Andrew Neil interview, but talking to charities

and organisations and consulting on it.

Wouldn't you have done that before you came up with the policy?

We will be protecting pensioners.

You have promised twice to reduce immigration

to the tens of thousands, and twice you've failed.

Why should we believe you a third time?

We have ensured that we are working to reduce immigration.

Crucially, of course, we will, when we leave the European Union,

have the opportunity and the ability to deal with the figures to bring

in rules who are coming from the European Union countries

in rules for those who are coming from the European Union countries

into the UK.

You've always had that power with non-EU migration,

and you've never managed to get that down to the tens of thousands,

even the bit you controlled.

We have seen it come down.

It is way above tens of thousands.

There's a real choice here on 8th June.

It's between me and my party, who believe that we should work

to control immigration,

and Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party,

who believe you should have uncontrolled immigration.

That's the choice that will be there before people.

We will continue to work to bring net migration down

because we believe it does have an impact on people.

But you're not bringing it down.

Net migration is higher now than it was when he came to power in 2010.

Net migration is higher now than it was when you came to power in 2010.

The latest figures did see a fall.

You're right, we haven't got down to the tens of thousands.

We will be able to introduce rules for people coming

from inside the European Union when we leave the European Union.

But this is an area of immigration, as I've said many times before,

where you have to be consistently working at it.

That includes looking at non-EU migration as well as EU

migration in the future.

Doesn't this go to the heart of why people have lost

trust in politicians?

You make promises, you fail to keep them,

but you make the same promise again.

Andrew, I called an election several weeks ago.

I called an election on this whole issue of trust,

because the question that people face is, who do they trust

to take this country through the Brexit negotiations?

Who do they trust to face up to the presidents,

the prime ministers, the chancellors of Europe

and the European Commission?

Who do they trust to get the best deal for the UK?

They have to decide.

It's either me or Jeremy Corbyn.

The question for everybody on 8th June is,

who do they trust to get the deal for the UK?

The Conservatives promised to end the budget deficit by 2015.

It's now going to be 2025 at the earliest.

You promised to reduce migration to the tens of thousands.

It's still 273,000.

On these two big issues, you failed to meet your promises.

Why would we trust the Tories on anything else?

As I say, the election will be about trust.

Yes, we are still the party that wants to ensure

that we bring that deficit down.

We've brought it down by three quarters, so we have been doing that

work and we will continue to work on that in sharp contrast

to the Labour Party, that wants to increase borrowing

and with a leader who says he doesn't mind about debt and deficit.

These are big issues.

The Budget deficit, how we spend and borrow and tax, immigration,

which was a huge issue with the Brexit campaign and so on,

on these two major issues, you have failed to keep your promises.

And on these two major issues, we are in sharp contrast

with the Labour Party.

We are continuing to work to deliver what I believe ordinary people want.

Immigration was one of the issues that underpinned that Brexit vote.

That is why I come back to the point I made earlier about the election

being a matter of trust.

Who do people trust to sit around a table in those Brexit negotiations

and bring home the best deal for the UK?

George Osborne says not a single senior member of your Cabinet

supports the immigration target.

Is that true?

No!

Look, this immigration target is one that we've had

over the years since 2010.

It was developed under David Cameron's leadership in opposition.

We've brought it through.

People do support the immigration target.

They support the view of the British people.

That's what we're supporting, because the British people want

to see us controlling migration.

We have brought in new rules.

We have ruled out a lot of abuse that was taking place in the system.

But you have consistently to work at that.

We will get the ability to work at it in relation to the numbers

of people coming from the EU.

But it is me and my party, me and my team, that are committed

to saying we want to control migration, whereas Labour want

uncontrolled migration.

You said last week that Britain faces "dire consequences" if we fail

to get a good deal in the Brexit talks

over leaving the EU.

What sort of dire consequences?

If you look at what is being said around the whole question

of Brexit negotiations, you've got people in

the European Union talking about punishing the United Kingdom.

You've got some people here in the UK who are saying it

doesn't really matter what we do, we're just going to get any deal,

and that's all we need to do.

What are the dire consequences?

If we don't get a deal, what will the dire consequences be?

I've said that no deal is better than a bad deal,

because as I've just said, there are some people

here who are willing to sign up to any deal.

The reason I said what you've quoted and the reason I think this is such

a crucial part of the question that underpins this election

is that we need to get Brexit right in setting the tone for the next,

not five years, but for the future.

It's about our economy.

It's about all the things that we want to do in terms

of ensuring that we work with our European partners.

I don't understand why no deal can be better than a bad deal

but no deal would also mean dire consequences.

You haven't told us what the consequences would be.

We want to make sure that we get a good deal which ensures

that we can build our economy.

I've explained why no deal is better than a bad deal,

because a bad deal is because there are those in Europe

who want to punish us.

And there are politicians in the United Kingdom

who are willing to sign up to anything.

I understand that, but you're now saying no deal

means dire consequences.

I'm trying to find out how dire the consequences will be.

I have every confidence that we will be able to negotiate

a good deal with the right negotiating hand, with the strength

of mandate behind us to take into those negotiations.

And that's what I want to do.

That's why the choice on 8th June is so important for people.

If you win on June 8th, Prime Minister, if you win,

how long will you stay Prime Minister?

Well, I'm Prime Minister until 8th June.

I hope people will feel that they can support me to be

Prime Minister for the next term.

You'll stay for the next Parliament?

I will definitely stay for the next Parliament.

Beyond that, Andrew, I haven't got through this election yet.

I'm focusing on this election.

It's really important.

It's the most crucial in my lifetime.

It's about the future of our country and who people trust to take us

forward in the future.

Prime Minister, thank you.

As voters prepare to go to the polls

to choose who represents them and who will run the country,

the Ukip leader Paul Nuttall joins me

for The Andrew Neil Interviews.

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