Episode 6 The Nolan Show

We've a Nolan special programme tonight.

The First Minister is threatening to quit. He says IRA suspects were

given get out of jail free cards behind his back. Is power-sharing

really in trouble? Hello. A very important programme tonight. Is it

all in danger of coming tumbling time tonight. Peter Robinson is

demanding a judicial inquiry into secret government letters to more

than 180 republican "on-the-runs". They were assured they wouldn't be

arrested. The First Minister is threatening to resign. This is an

absolute outrage. It is very clear to anyone who has listen to me how

angry I am about it and I am not repaired to be a stage or

Westminster. I am not appeared to be part of a government that has

responsibility for policing and justice yet is not told in very

critical issue in relation to policing and justice and not given

any information about it. Nobody would stay in those circumstances. I

want a full judicial inquiry into all of these matters. I want to know

who the 187 people are that received these letters. It is vital but no

one is allowed to think they can get away with it and that is why I want

all of these letters rescinded. Tough talking from the First

Minister. Joining me now is DUP minister Arlene Foster and Sinn

Fein's Gerry Kelly. Peter Robinson has gone further. He has given the

government until Friday to do that. He met with the Secretary of State

and he was very clear with her that he wanted to express his anger. He

wanted her to know the depth of feeling right across Northern

Ireland. We have had telephone calls today from people who are outraged

about this affront to justice. They think justice has been undermined.

They think their is a secret and clandestine system on sending out

letters which is essentially get out of jail free cards. He has spoken to

the Secretary of State. The alarming thing is that the Royal Prerogative

of Mercy has used in some cases. It is not just a case of people who

were not questioned about a particular crime, but they have also

said that this has been used as well. That means people were

convicted in their absence in court and who were on the run were allowed

to come back to Northern Ireland. We will come back to that in a moment.

What is Peter Robinson saying? Under what circumstances will he resign?

If he does not get the letters rescinded, will he resign? He needs

to have clarity around the letters, and got them and what they say. We

understand different people got different letters. We understand the

letters had been going out from the year 2000 until 2012. You need to

know what they say. And he needs a public inquiry. He has asked for the

letters to be rescinded and that is at the heart of this. The DUP says

these letters are wrong. Has the First Minister, is he saying that he

will resign if those letters are not taken out. He has been clear. He is

resigning unless there is clarity around the letters and unless there

is a public inquiry in relation to what has happened. Rescinding is not

a deal-breaker. It could mean getting clarity in relation to the

letters. Rescinding means the letters that have been sent out are

no longer valid. Is that a resigning matter? Absolutely. If the letters

are not withdrawn he will resign? In the letters were not followed up,

they were told that there were no longer wanted... That is not

correct. New evidence... It is not. We do not know that the letters

actually say and that is part of the problem. If there is no evidence

than any of these people can be presented again if there is fresh

evidence. There was evidence in relation to the gentleman who was

able to walk free over the Hyde Park bombing. There was evidence there.

There was a mistake by the police there. We will get into that later.

Will First Minister resign if those letters are not wanted? Yes, he

will. That is clear. That is a message to you. It is not a message

to me. This is the First Minister. He has pinned himself into a corner.

Peter Robinson knows his own mind. The letters were if someone went

forward and said I want to know if I am being sought for questioning or

arrest, for my status is. In 187 of those situations, letters were sent

back saying we are not looking for you, we do not need you. We are

talking about these people as if they have been through the courts.

We are talking about them as if they are in the IRA. You said some of

them may have ended up in jail. You believe some of them would have been

found guilty. I said might have been, but anywhere. That is correct.

What would your point? The point is due process was not allowed to

continue in a court. Let me spell out my point. You are assuming they

will have went to court, you are making an assumption. Let me finish

my sentence. The British government including the Secretary of State is

currently telling this country that those letters were letters of fact.

There was insufficient evidence to pursue those people that

prosecutions could not continue. Is it not an extraordinary situation

where the government of this country says there is no evidence against

these people and Sinn Fein are saying if these people had gone to

court some of them may have been jailed. That is my point. The

extraordinary situation is that we were in a conflict resolution

situation. In all of these situations throughout the world

there are processes whereby the combatants and prisoners were dealt

with as well as arms and all of these things. British soldiers

combatants? Yes, they are. The difference between state forces and

Republicans and again, there you go... Accusing people of being

terrorists and they have not been through the court... The whole point

is if they have not went through the courts... Are you seriously

suggesting these people did not support the IRA? There was a period

of internment. By could argue that those people were innocent because

they were jailed without trial. -- I could argue. The British government

has accepted that they put all sorts of people in jail. I am not talking

about internment. Why did they go through Sinn Fein if they were not

IRA sympathisers and terrorists? I am elected to a constituency. Anyone

can come into my office, including unionist, and ask for help. Stephen

has asked a question and let me answer it. There are people who

difference between state forces and Republicans was that there were no

on the runs on state forces and the reason for this, despite the fact of

pollution and many other things, there was only a handful of people

on the state forces that went to jail. They were acting with impunity

and immunity. People who should have went to jail when never thought of

eating questioned or anything. Let's have some balance. What is going to

happen in relation to the soldiers acting on bloody Sunday? Do not

know. Getting the talks with Dr Richard Haass, there would be

prosecutions... Let me finish. There was a process of bringing forward

information. This is a legacy issue. The point has been missed. We have

got into negotiations to try and take the fall of these issues and

the DUP is walking away. We entered a situation on a deceit. We were not

aware of these letters going out in relation to the on the runs. I have

listened to Sinn Fein and I have listened to the former Secretary of

State Peter Hain today. We knew that we -- you tried and failed to bring

before Parliament. The question was then asked in relation to on the

runs, they were given a letter saying there was no legislation...

Let me finish. There will not be legislation and there will not be

any amnesty. Essentially, the government deceived the leadership

of the DUP. We are to believed the DUP thought it has gone away now, it

has gone out of Sinn Fein's mind. There's plenty of things in Sinn

Fein's mind they would like, have they got all the things? Is that

what you are saying? So, you didn't ask? We asked the question in 2006.

The letter is a matter of public opinion. -- public fact. The Bradley

report says it is difficult to be precise about the exact number of on

the run cases but the circumstances around 200 individuals have been

considered by the PSN I so their status can be assessed while the

majority are not wanted for prosecution a quarter of the cases

are still under... Where does it say that they got a letter that said to

them...? You are pretending... You are pretending... You are pretending

despite what I read out that the DUP did not know and it says precisely

the On The Runs were being dealt with and to sit there and say you

did not know... Where does it say there was a scheme to deal with the

issue? Where does it say? It doesn't. You knew it was being dealt

with but you didn't know how. No, we didn't know. We rejected Bradley. We

rejected Bradley. You knew about it and rejected it? Did you know about

that? Did you know about what I read out? That is the assessment. It is

not the facts. We can move this further. Denis Bradley has gone

further saying the Policing Board was fully informed about what was

going on. I was vice-chairman of the Policing Board, the police came in

and gave us a detailed briefing on the scheme which is being questioned

and we are being told it wasn't in the public domain. The police were

quite upfront and open and the political parties in Northern

Ireland, barring Sinn Fein who were not on the Policing Board, would

have been aware of the scheme. The scheme as it was run out by the

police service was reported to the Policing Board, discussed, it was in

the James Bradley report and we made recommendations. The DUP were on the

Policing Board. Absolutely. I have spoken to the Policing Board and

they have said clearly they did not receive any detailed briefing from

the police and so I would challenge Denis Bradley to bring forward the

minutes. There will be minutes. When he left the Policing Board, 2006, to

show me in the minutes where there was a briefing in relation to On The

Runs. I spoke to my colleagues before I came on the show tonight, I

asked if they had received a briefing in relation to On The

Runs. Why would he say that? I have no idea. We need to find the

minutes. I would like to say it is time to start moving on and see how

we can make a difference for the future. Why? Doesn't it matter to

you that justice prevails at all times, I was reading Gerry Kelly

talking about Bloody Sunday and talking in the past about needing

justice for his community and demanding justice. What about people

in the unionist community demanding justice? Are they allowed to? It is

important to sort it out and how you will make amends in the future. That

is what everyone else is looking forward to, the future. Go ahead.

Stephen, for years Sinn Fein and the republican movement have been

demanding that members of the security forces be brought to

justice for alleged collusion, the prepared to tonight in front of this

audience to come out and demand justice be brought for his IRA

friends who are now walking about with get out of jail free cards?

APPLAUSE I tell you what I was asked in the

hast talks a number of times and I said clearly that we are trying to

deal with the issues of the past. What ever comes out of the Haass

talks has to be done on an equal basis. Could that apply to the

soldiers being investigated in Bloody Sunday? Everyone. You would

see a situation where the Bloody Sunday soldiers could be given

immunity from prosecution? Remember what the Haass talks said. It set up

a historical enquiries unit which would allow families

across-the-board on the Unionist side and the nationalist side who

could pursue justice. We agreed with that across-the-board. You're making

a mistake in saying these 180 -- 187 people have evaded justice. They

asked for an assessment of their status and they got an answer. This

is causing controversy in David Cameron's party. Joining us is the

Tory MP Bob Stewart. What is your reaction? I am sad and Paul's, if we

are talking about the Hyde Park bombing is which started this, I am

shocked that this man who has allegedly done this will not be

tried. I find it appalling. And I had no knowledge about any get out

of jail cards. 30 odd of these letters were handed out under your

government, not just labour. What you to your Secretary of State

Theresa Villiers who within your party who is standing over those

letters? Well, what we said in the House of Commons is we want to know

who has done it and the question was asked repeatedly today. Let's be

quite clear, five months after the Hyde Park bombings occurred I lost

six men personally, 11 soldiers were killed, six civilians were killed at

Ballykelly and I was the commander there. Five people were taken to

court as a result of that and five people were sent to prison. They

were guilty. What concerns me is frankly one person who is allegedly

involved with the Hyde Park bombing is is not going to trial. He denies

any involvement. I take that point. But the police believed that he had

a case to answer. And now there was no case to answer and he is walking

free. I agree with those people who are deeply upset.

If people are upset about Hyde Park but about all of the letters that

have been handed out, some of the letters have been handed out under

your government is wash with Theresa Villiers -- under your watch. Are

you prepared to condemn her for doing so, she is in your party.

I am condemning who has done it, frankly. We asked who was

responsible, we repeatedly asked. I am not in the government. I am a

backbencher. I ask for things to be done properly, I ask for how this

had happened and who was responsible and we need to know.

The First Minister of this country is asking for the letters to be

rescinded or he will resign. Do you support him?

Yes. Of course I do. I want those people who have carried out a crime

to be brought to justice. Including members of the security forces? Of

course. If people carry out a crime, I want justice. He is making an

assumption the people who were cleared have carried out a crime.

There is no evidence of them carried out a crime. There is evidence but

it hasn't been tested in court. Unless that is the presumption of

innocence. How is there evidence? First of all,

through the negotiations involving a change in the judiciary and the

police service and I did sign up. Let's be clear, we are not in the

same situation we were in during the conflict where there was torture or

people beating in Castlereagh or there was people murdered on the

streets by state forces. It's a different situation now. I will aid

you come back in. Lots of you are joining the studio debate from home.

The details to get in touch are coming up on the screen. You will

see the charges as well. Please read. I would like to say that it's

part of the peace process that the On The Runs are being dealt with and

we have to accept it. It is part of the peace process. Sinn Fein

negotiated this. And nobody else knew? They all knew. They said they

did not know. To be fair to Peter Robinson, and the First Minister, I

said this morning now the First Minister does know, what will you do

and he has said he will put his job on the line if those letters are not

taken out. It's part of the peace process. Do any Unionist loyalist? I

don't care. It is part of the peace process. Peter Robinson is try to

bully us, the people. Trying to bully the people? Is he not standing

up the transparency? He did not know. Imagine running a country and

you don't know that letters ab initio to say we are not coming

after you. He claims he doesn't know. Stephen is on the line.

Quickly. Peter Robinson should resign. I honestly believe that to

collapse the executive and I believe the reason is they sold the

Protestant Unionist loyalist people a pop. We got the bad end of the

deal. You look at what has happened with the Parades Commission, you

look at everyone in the community feel like they are on the back foot.

Think about peace and how important it is. Thank you for your call. I

have to move on. Loads of people are wanting to get three. The DUP says

it's a crisis. Arlene Foster says the First Minister will go. What was

Stormont do about this crisis? Joining the debate, Mike Nesbitt,

Alex Attwood, Jim Allister and David Ford. Mike Nesbitt,

what David Trumbull wanted and gone through a judicial process, we would

be on this over ten years ago. I'm talking about the economy, the

education system. So, you will stay in the executive. I want to know the

truth. Did Richard Haass know about the letters? Because eight months I

have sat six months and two months in party leaders and not once were

letters mentioned. Let's get it answered. Since you are directing

the question at me, answered. Since you are directing

Haass know? You went into the Cardiff talks, you did not want

anything to do with them, you went into the Richard Haass talks and the

UUP were against, talking to the press every day trying to destroy

it. You are coming here trying to get on your high horse. Pitino? As

Kim. Did he know? You should ask him. What did you say to Theresa

Villiers. There was a frank exchange of views. I made it absolutely clear

that the statements from the Northern Ireland Office and her

statements were misleading in terms of wearing to the role of the bolder

therapies. This was a Northern Ireland Office scheme set up by the

Labour government and it was continuing to be administered by the

Conservatives and nothing was said to the devolved Executive parties.

That is fundamentally misleading to suggest we knew about it. What are

you going to do about it? I got an apology from her this evening. She

apologised for the misleading way that she suggested this was

something to do with devolution. She admitted that it was so relieved

their scheme and the scheme of the Labour Party before them. How do you

feel? Some of these letters were handed out as recently as one year

ago. Why you with the Justice Minister. How do you feel? There are

certain things that I do not know about because the Northern Ireland

Office handles them in the interests of national security. The Northern

Ireland Office to say that this should now be handled at the

Northern Ireland authorities, they never told us. This is a fundamental

mishandling... It is an affront to the role of log. What we should have

had was a proper legal process to deal with this. We needed to deal

with that but we did not need it dealt with by a shabby back door

deal. Alex Attwood, you were on the Northern Ireland Policing Board. Did

you know about it? I hear what Denis Bradley has said but he is not

infallible. I spent a long time checking with staff members and

senior police officers today and there is, to put it frankly, a

muddle about what we need to work out. Did you know? I did not and I

will confirm that. The Northern Ireland Policing Board, and Denis

Bradley confirms this and senior police will confirm this that they

never knew or was their advice and all was the deal done in dark

corridors between Sinn Fein and the British government. Letters were

being handed to this person and that person... So let's be unambiguous

about that. But let me say this. You are backing Peter Robinson on this

one? I am saying that the Policing Board needs to look at its own files

and see what was or was not advised to the Policing Board. Only then can

you make a definitive answer to all of that. Jim Allister, do you admire

the First Minister for putting his job on the line? We will see if the

doors. His position is simply this. He has found himself in the

embarrassing position of leading a government with Sinn Fein of being

the one who sustained Sinn Fein in government. It is now quite obvious

that to get that government in place he was sold a pup. He is now

furiously trying to catch up with the Temple of the unionist community

because the unionist community is outraged at what has happened. --

catch up with the man meant. His hand has been forced but I will hold

him to that. We are not talking about a Hutton inquiry whitewash. He

must prove himself as good as his word and I will not reap any tears

about the loss of this miserable, failing, dysfunctional Executive

that has not delivered anything for anyone. Arlene Foster. Jim Allister

was part of our negotiating team. I was kept in a cupboard! Surely not!

Downing Street civil servants reached a point where they refused

to attend meetings I was sad because they did not like the questions I

was asking. I was not allowed to negotiate. But you stayed in the

team! He stayed on the team in the cupboard! But anyway! Once they

signed up to go into government with the IRA I was out of there and I am

very proud I was out of there and that I was not any part of this

betrayal. I just need to balance this. Here is the reality. Robinson

has called for a public inquiry. Why would he do that there was something

to hide? Answer that for me. The reality is there is nothing to hide.

Hold on. He wants to know all of the pertinent information. And I believe

that what he has done has said to the people of Northern Ireland that

we are going to take on what is a fundamental affront to justice. It

is not open and transparent. It is hidden. We need to get to the bottom

of this. I do not know the instances of what First Minister did and did

not know. But sometimes enquiries are a good tactic to buy time. You

set up an inquiry and the results come out in around two years time

and the story is gone. You have what time and it is now quiet. You think

that is going to happen in this case when there is so much anger in

society? That will not happen. Let me be clear. That will not happen

because the First Minister will be gone on Friday if those letters are

not rescinded. He has made himself very clear on all of this. Jim

Allister, you are sitting there smiling. I am sorry, if that offends

you Stephen. Would choose preferred direct rule back here? That is not

going to happen. We are part of the United Kingdom. We would be ruled as

part of the United Kingdom. By a British government that you think

I'd letters from you? We are presently ruled by Sinn Fein who

carry the letters, who have the letters in their pockets, to get the

inmates of the justice. That is the sort of system that we live under,

the obscenity of government in Northern Ireland. Here we go again.

All of these accusations that people are in the IRA. Vote for these

people running from? Not you, Jim. There is a fundamental mistake.

These were people who wanted to find out if they were being sought by the

authorities. On 187 occasions they were told they were not. It is

straightforward and simple. How many were told that they were? I do not

know. In that report I read out to you, it was reckoned there was...

You do not know? I do not. Do you want me to guess? I would say a

couple of dozen. They are still working on it. And I did tell the

truth! Yes. What about telling the truth about your past? Why don't you

start there? My past is open to everybody. Lets here tonight about

all of the terrorist incidents. Even the late David Irvine stood up. The

rhetoric you have come out with over the years... People like you and

others that drove people out onto the streets. Just to remind to John

Downey as we have been discussing, will not face trial although he was

a suspect for the Hyde Park warming. It was the collapse of his trial

that has brought all of these letters into the open. -- the Hyde