14/09/2014 The Referendum Debate

Welcome to the Referendum Debate. Four days to go and the polls neck

and neck, Scotland faces its biggest ever decision and tonight, we are in

Stirling. APPLAUSE

On our panel, two campaigners from each side of the debate, Labour's

Shadow Foreign Secretary and a key figure in the Better Together

Campaign, Douglas Alexander. Stewart Hosie, the SNP's Treasury spokesman

at Westminster. The leader of the Scottish Conservative Party, Ruth

Davidson and the actor and Yes Campaigner, Elaine C Smith. The

audience are evenly divided. We have voters of independence on one side

and opponents on the other. We have some who're still at this stage

still making up their minds. The audience have submitted their

questions and the panel have not seen them. Welcome to Wallace High

School. To truly command Scotland, you

needed Stirling. It was the gateway between the Highlands and the

Lowlands, the broach that clasped the country together.

Scotland's Great Warrior heroes, William Wallace and Robert the Bruce

won famous victories here at Stirling Bridge and on the

Bannockburn. The man who you nighted the

monarchies of Scotland and England, jails VI, was crowned here.

Modern Stirling is balanced between nationalism and unionism, there is

an SNP MSP but a Labour Conservative coalition runs the council. This

thriving university city has a strong retail and finance sector and

tourists still flock here to listen to Scotland's story.

In four days' time, more than four million voters will write the next

chapter. So let us get on with the debate and

the first question from Thomas Burns this evening.

Why would multinational billion pound corporations issue public

warnings if they did not mean it? ? Stewart Hosie? There are a number of

things that have been said by a number of businesses over the last

few weeks. I'm not surprised they have come out. We know the

supermarkets, for example, were called into Ten Downing Street to

have their arms twisted up their backs. We've seen that before. We

know that the banks have said a number of things, but if you look at

that in particular, particularly RBS, they have said no jobs are at

risk and no functions are at risk, operations won't change the way

banking is carried out. I think if you listen to other people, Sir

Angus saying much of what has been said is a credibly overstated. There

are lots of warnings overstated. Those issues warn about some other

things. Some have an EU in-out referendum on the risk out register.

Others are concerned about modest extra devolution so of course

they'll consider all the things that are going to come up next. They'll

put in place the contingency plans. That is absolutely normal but no

jobs are to be lost, no functions are to be lost and we need to stay

calm and understand in this wealthy prosperous nation, if businesses

think they can make a profit, they'll continue to run and operate

in and out of Scotland to the benefit of themselves and the

economy. We want to take as many questions as

possible so put your hands up and we'll come to you in a moment, but

first to Douglas Alexander. What happened last week was an avalanche

of facts engulfed the asessions we have had from the nationalists --

assertions we have heard from the nationalists. You have to ask why

every single Scottish bank said they would move the registered

headquarters to England in the event of a yes vote. It's because 90% of

the products are sold to English customers. They want to be part of a

UK regulatory system. They want the authority of the Bank of England,

the central behind hind them and they want the security of 63 million

taxpayers standing behind them. So it's not some great conspiracy

involving MI5, the BBC, Iceland, ASDA and a whole range of other

organisations. The fact is, these organisations are not lying, they

have got a responsibility. I think they did probably come out last week

because of the poll we saw at the weekend suggesting that Yes support

was at 50% and they felt obliged to speak up. I believe there is a

better way we can secure the 200,000 jobs that are in financial services

here in Scotland. That's to have the faster, safer, better change being

offered within the United Kingdom so we can hold on to the currency and

the regulator and also the stability that's the platform for the Scottish

jobs. Thank you. The man in the pink on

the front row? Douglas Alexander mentions a whole

sea of facts and I would love to see just one and maybe I could put it to

you that I would ask you just one. I know lots of companies that have

kept head offices and there are zero job losses. So of the major three

Scottish banks, what would the impact be to the economy with the

job losses? If you look at Nicola Sturgeon and what she's said in the

past, retention of corporate headquarters is fundamental to the

Scottish economy. I used to be a lawyer in Edinburgh. Once you lose

headquarters capability, it's no just the jobs within the

organisations, it's the support services. We have got an interest in

keeping every possible headquarters that we can and when we are in a

position that we are now with just four days to go, the Scottish

Government is silent in these circumstances and they would be

saying this is effectively the end of Scottish banking.

Mr Hosie, the Chief Economist of Deutsche Bank clearly doesn't have a

dog in this fight yet. He has seen fit to make some comments. I wonder

whether you think he's missing something or whether he's an idiot?

We'll come back to that in a moment. The woman on this side with the Yes

badge? Douglas, is it not also true that in the event of the EU in-out

referendum that American companies are going to move out of Britain to

Ireland? Let's put that to Ruth Davidson? I

want to pick up on something Stewart said when he said there were no jobs

at risk. I do not accept that, neither does the Head of Standard

Life who said he'd move operations south of the border. There are 5,000

people employed in Edinburgh with Standard Life. I want to know why

the jobs are worthwhile of Stewart's concerns. One of the thing this is

conspiracy has about people speaking out, on Monday billions of pounds

were wiped off Scottish registered companies on the stock market. An

hour after RBS said on Tuesday that it was going to shift its registered

headquarters south, it had made ?490 million of that back. The Prime

Minister, all of the people on our side have been perfectly clear about

this. We want as many voices to be heard about this. The only people

that want to stop voices talking about what's happening seem to be on

the other side. People say there is going to be a day of reckoning for

Scottish businesses. APPLAUSE

Saying that BP is going to have to bend the knee. There's talk of a

boycott and what kind of people do these companies think they are,

they'll find out. I don't think it's good for Scottish business or for

people looking at Scotland wanting to see Scotland open for business to

see a whole list of companies moving headquarters down south. It's not

good for Scottish business. APPLAUSE

Elaine C Smith, is there a day of reckoning on the way if there's a

yes vote for businesses in Scotland? I don't really think so. But on the

point that was made, I don't think there's anything wrong with

businesses having concerns about what is about to happen. I run a

small business as well, a small production company. You are

perfectly legitimate in asking that. For me in all of this, it's been the

way it's been spun. It's the way that it's been dealt with and that

there isn't... APPLAUSE

We are always being told about balance. There are thousands of

small businesses, medium and large in Scotland who also do not have

that fear, that absolute terror of what is going to happen and they are

not being given the same voice. This is all about lender of last resort

and this could all be sorted and if George Osborne said there would be a

currency union, this would be over. The SNP have been very naive in

thinking there'll not be a loss of jobs because, as has been discussed

when the headquarters moves south, the functions will go south as well

and when it comes to spin, it's the Yes side who've been spinning far

more than the No side ever has. They don't like to have to take their own

medicine. There's been a number of points. In terms of the Deutsche

Bank question which is important, the report seems to take no notice

to the underlying strength of the economy. Tax per head for the last

30 years relatively strong. Fiscal position strong. Standard Life, the

same warnings in 1979 and 1997, the same warnings in 2014. In terms of

what has happened with the markets, the markets haven't been spooked

because of Scottish independence, they've been spooked by the lack of

preparedness of the British government for Scottish

independence. The final point in terms of what was

said, there won't be a day of reckoning, there'll be a day of

celebration. A Yes Vote will be a vote of national self-confidence for

the Scottish people. Douglas Alexander? Only last week we had the

First Minister saying he was team Scotland, as if somehow David Soul

who left the Scottish rugby team out into Murrayfield, as if Lynndie

Sharp who won a gold medal for Scotland is a 30-year-old, somehow

they are not part of team Scotland. You cannot offer a day of

celebration to your supporters, a day of reckoning to the rest of us

and claim to be uniting Scotland. That is not the kind of debate we

want. After yes, will you join team Scotland? I don't need to prove my

patriotism. Elaine C Smith?

I just want to say. Jim is our dear friend and I'm actually on this

whole journey in a belief in independence because of him and

Malcolm McDonald. At 7 Years of age, he has been out there every single

day since the death of his wife, campaigning up and down this

country. Jim maybe used language that is slightly old-fashioned,

Labour-right but... But what does it mean? Wait a minute. But, within

that, he was expressing much of the sentiments that were on the

doorsteps. I was out yesterday. Not many people in Craig Miller are

shopping in John Lewis or Waitrose or any of those shops and they were

concerned. A lot of citizens are concerned at that sort of

threatening from businesses. A lot of them are saying, if you don't

vote the way we want to, and it's your democratic right, if you don't

think somebody is treating you right, you take your business

elsewhere and that's legitimate a thing to do.

I would like to raise four points. Well, no, one. We don't have time

for four. Quickly, please? The share price dropped and bounced up the

next couple of days. That could have been avoided if the Chancellor had

come out and defended it. But the real reason that happened was

because somebody in the Treasury leaked that. In addition to that.

The headquarters of the Royal Bank and Lloyds Bank to London, moving

them to London, under European law they have to have their head offices

in the countries in which they have the greatest turnover. You should

remember and you should know this, Douglas, that Lloyds have had their

headquarters in London for many, many years. But who is the major

shareholder in the Royal Bank of Scotland? And how dare they come out

and say that unless they'd had the shareholders, in other words the

Treasury, Condon them actually coming out and saying that? Ruth

Davidson. The Treasury are responding to media requests and,

with the best of the knowledge they had, the Sun newspaper had already

RSPCA Well, just for the record, I received that e-mail and I didn't

request it. As I understand it, they had a media

request from the Sun from somebody from RBS and they responded when the

markets were closed. Now, what I want to know from what Elaine was

saying is, you know, I have a huge amount of respect for Jim and I have

more respect for him in some ways than some of the positions the SNP

have taken because the independence he wants is actual independence,

helps his own currency and a different Head of State. But let's

not write off what he said. He didn't say it because he was caught

out, he craft add press release. He decided to do it, yes. I don't think

that the undertones of that were terribly helpful to anybody in this

day of reckoning. Learn to bend the knee, talking of boycotts. You know,

this doesn't help us when we come back together because no matter what

happens on the 18th, we have to come back together as a country. When I

look at Alex Salmond organising his day of celebration, with the

negotiating team in place, I look at the semi-final team of a football

team already booked the open-top bus, we know how that goes. I'm a

Dunfermline fan, that doesn't work out. He shouldn't be taking the

people of Scotland for granted when the votes haven't been cast yet. For

the next three-and-a-half days, I'm not standing outside the BBC talking

about conspiracies, I'm out there forfighting for Scotland.

You can contribute to the debate on Twitter. The hashtag is

#bbcindyref. Another question, now, from Alan

Caldwell. If Better Together with sincere about more powers, why was

it only offered a week before? If Better Together word sincere, why

was it only offered with a week to go? It wasn't. We returned it much

earlier this year. It has been sitting on the Scottish Conservative

Party website. It is available for anybody to see, for a number of

months. We are utterly convinced, as a Conservative, and from right of

centre, I want to end the situation where a First Minister and a finance

minister, the start of every year, get a grant and all they are in

charge of doing it handing out and they don't have to lug a taxpayer in

the eye. I want a tax minister to look at ministers, and be in charge

of the tax that they raise. It is not about saying that everything in

Scotland which is good is because the Scottish Government spent money

on it, and Everything bad is because of those at Westminster. That does

not make a country better. A point from the man in the purple

shirt, right in the middle of the audience? Is it not true because

this is a constitutional change that you are offering more powers, it has

to go through the House of Commons and they can veto any powers that

you give Scotland? Thank you. Right up the back, with the glasses? All

three main Scottish parties, Unionist parties, they said ages ago

that there will definitely be more powers for the Scottish parliament

in the event of a No Vote. Isn't it shocking that four days from the

referendum there is still so much uncertainty because Yes Scotland

haven't given any answers and nobody knows what will happen in the event

of a Yes Vote, even down to when we would actually become separate,

because they have just dictated in a White Paper the data that Scotland

would become an independent country? It couldn't become independent until

negotiations are finished, however long that takes, and I think it will

take a long time. Stuart Hosie, you can't possibly know a date,

potential date for Scottish independence even if there is a Yes

Vote? It is laid out in the White Paper. How do you know how long

negotiations will take? Some glaciations on the key things need

to be complete, which is absolutely right. But the process begins with a

Yes Vote next Thursday, it ends in the spring of 2016 when we become

independent. Then negotiations on other matters will continue after

that. In terms of this question about more powers and devolution, we

have proposals from Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems which

would devolve something in the order of 20% to 30% of Scotland's tax base

much Scotland. I think the days when Unionist politicians can say, you

are grown in -- grown-up enough to have 20% of your resources... He

says it is 15%? It is 15% of the spending of the Parliament, barely

30% of the total tax base. The Scottish people are grown up enough,

mature enough and democratic enough to look after 100%.

The man in the colourful shirt? I am prepared for the good Yes Vote, it's

going to be sunny every day. I'm sorry, go on. I would like to take

up Ruth Davidson on her stance on all of this devolution that is going

to happen. You became head of the Conservatives because you said you

were going to draw a line on any further devolution going to

Holyrood, and that is a fact. And Alex Salmond said that sterling was

a millstone around our necks, now he's fighting for currency union.

There is clearly an appetite in Scotland for more powers, remaining

part of the United Kingdom, having strength and stability, keeping the

things we like about the UK but having more autonomy and having a

way in which we do politics in Scotland, where it is not a politics

of grudge and grievance, which is what we have had for seven years. Do

you want to come in? I would just like to say that I think she has

done a complete 180 degrees turn on this.

I have been in Scottish Labour for almost 30 years and every one of

those days I have leaved in devolution. I stood in George Square

in 1992 demanding Scottish parliament. I have carried banners

up Carlton Hill, I have stood in the rain in the meadows arguing for

Scottish Parliament. When a late, great Donald Dewar said that

devolution was a journey, I think he spoke the truth. I think it is a

journey, and I am proud of the fact that we legislated in 1997 to

establish a Scottish parliament. I'm proud of the fact that, since then,

we have had 27 further evolution is matter of powers within the United

Kingdom to the Scottish Parliament. When we published our paper in

March, it was setting out Scottish Labour's thinking, how do we get a

stronger Scottish Parliament with the strength, security of the Ashya

King the minders? Why have you watered it it down? It is weaker

than the original proposals? There were interim proposals that we

looked at. Let me answer your point. This is a serious point, there are

some people in this debate that believe that nothing can, from the

United Kingdom that is good. I disagree. There are significant

benefits to pooling and sharing the risks, resources and rewards of the

United Kingdom between 64 million people. That means we could have a

state pension system with 64 million people standing behind it. We can

have a national insurance scheme... Comeback to the question, sorry. How

do you strike the right balance between a strong Scottish parliament

and maintaining the strengths, security of benighted kingdom? I

believe the proposals put forward, the timetable for change, will give

Scotland what most of us want. Faster, better and safer change

within the United Kingdom, not all of the risks, uncertainties and

doubts that we still haven't answered with four days to go.

The woman in White, with the spotty dress? I believe we have got the

best of both worlds now, I am very passionate, I believe in that. But

my question is, don't you think that, given that Alex Salmond says

we can keep the pound, don't you think we would have more powers in a

non-independent Scotland than in an independent Scotland with fiscal

union? Elaine C Smith? I don't actually understand why you would

give up the chance of all of the power to take just some of the

power. I really don't understand that. Also, I would like to say,

like Douglas, we were at the same demonstrations. I am a great admirer

of Donald Dewar, I was there at the moment that brought about the

Scottish parliament. It is a journey, and I think, at this point,

we are at a really important part of the journey, where Scots have got to

the point, the campaigns that have gone on on both sides, they have

been wonderful to be part during these years. Although there have

been negative parts as well, I think it wonderful. I think the woman

would like to come back to you. The reason I feel we don't need more

powers is that I have an MP at Westminster. I'm British, I'm

already represented at Westminster. Your point would be that an

independent Scotland, with a currency union, would have less

power? Is that the point you are trying to make? Well, that is the

point that the woman originally made, would there not be less

powerful Scotland within that scenario? I don't believe so. If we

have absolute control of all of the fiscal levers, so that we can

actually spend's I realise, there is a debate within this, if the Bank of

England, the bank of UK, as it should be called, if it was actually

the bank overseeing everything, for me, a little bit of that sovereignty

that we would have to others, as Mark Carney has actually said, would

be given over. I don't mind that, because I actually think the overall

control and the ability to control and look after our own country, for

the people that live and work here, is infinitely preferable to what we

have now, and some little powers. The lady who asked the question is

absolutely right. The currency union, as proposed, and we know why

it has been proposed, they worry they would lose the referendum if

they were not able to pretend they can keep the pound, we will end up

as Scots with less power, not more power. It means a government in

London, to whom we would send no representatives, would set our

interest rates, which affects our car loans, rates, credit card bills,

it would mean they set the parameters for fiscal policy, why

would we want less power rather than more power when we can have Scottish

representation in UK Parliament and all of the strength and stability of

being part of that single market? Douglas, you are the strategy chief

of Better Together. The three parties came up with their default

powers in April. After the knee jerk reaction, Gordon Brown, not part of

Better Together, puts on a back of a fag packet, claiming that these

powers can be signed, sealed and delivered in four months. Wouldn't

it be a good idea to have them signed, sealed and delivered in time

for the referendum? Then you might have won. The way things are, it

seems that, to quote your Better Together TV advert, you haven't

really thought things through. If people are making their judgement

based on the back of a fag packet, I don't know if you have seen the yes

side's ideas, we know what the capital is going to be and the

flag, but we don't know what the currency will be. Alex Salmond is

saying the sovereign will of the Scottish people, combined the people

of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is not how it works.

It means those parts of the United Kingdom will become a foreign

government. They are perfectly entitled to make their judgement as

to whether a currency union is in their interest is, surely as much as

we are in Scotland. As Douglas mentioned a minute ago

about the monetary policy and fiscal policy effectively becoming the

prerogative of the Bank of England and we have no control over it, I

don't see how that advances our cause as a nation, particularly

given the tendency on the Yes Scotland campaign to basically

talked down and poison the relationship with the rest of the

UK. I'm wondering, how many companies have to give warnings of

price rises or possible redundancies, and I know two people

at RBS who have been told their job is at risk as a result of what is

going on. With the glasses, behind you, sir? We were told by Alastair

Darling and Alex Salmond that this would be a non-political debate. I

know of nothing more expressed, in terms of opinions, as the

referendum. Surely we should have it as a non-political debate? None of

us here will be involved. By the time the referendum is taken, by the

time devolution or independence comes in, we will be six feet under.

Thank you very much, let's take the next question from Paul Garner. Do

the panel feel that the media coverage during the run-up to the

referendum has been fair and impartial?

I have been really, really disappointed, I have to say. The

fact that we are neck and neck in the polls is now a miracle, I think,

at the moment. Given that only one Sunday newspaper in Scotland, the

Sunday Herald has come out in favour of independence. Even then, only a

couple of months ago. I think the barrage of negativity, of things

that are biased, that have emerged through the London based papers, has

really shamed us all, I have to say.

Even with things like... It is actually on a journalistic level as

well, where is the examination? When the polls... Where was the real

examination on the BBC, and beyond to what is really going on here? I

think many, many people across the country have been really sickened by

it. They are not seeing that this has been allowed to be a fair and

balanced debate. And journalists have been saying this as well.

Thank you. Ruth Davidson, there's a big demonstration outside the BBC in

Glasgow today alleging the BBC's been biassed in this referendum. We

have heard similar accusations against the newspapers. What is your

response? First of all, there's about 2,000 people barricading the

BBC. It's 6,000. I'm glad they. That's 6,000 people not knocking on

doors. There's a rule in broadcasting when you come up to a

referendum, both sides need parity of time to make their case. That's

what's happening. Newspapers can take an editorial decision and I

don't like the nationalism that Elaine used talking about

London-based... HECKLING. Scotland on Sunday that's

come out for no is not a London-based paper.

The Sunday Post has come out just today, it's not a London-based paper

and I know it's over the border but the Guardian who came out for a no

is not a London-based paper either, it's been headquartered in

Manchester I think. Every single one of them has written

an editorial saying why. And to every one, they have said the case

has note been made, the questions haven't been answered, people do not

have enough information to take that leap in the dark. Thank you.

The man here with the jacket, yes, Sir? Thanks, James. I have to say,

Elaine, respectfully I disagree because what Yes Scotland and the

separatists don't understand is that people and aspects of the media from

wherever they come from are pointing out the sheer economic illiteracy of

the plans for an independent Scotland.

You say about questions not being answered, as an undecided voter, you

are not answering any questions for me right now. The woman behind you

with the glasses in the purple? I'm wondering if Ruth ever looks on to

Facebook and you can see the full interviews of the likes of John

Lewis, instead of just the BBC editing when he didn't say what you

are saying he said. I really think you should look a wee bit further

than your nose. I would like to come to Stewart

briefly. We have not heard from Stewart Hosie yet. Do you feel that

media coverage has been fair and impartial? Do you? I think when you

look at programmes like this, this is the second one I've done balanced

audience and panel, impartial chair, absolute impeccable balance.

However, we then get the Metropolitan sneering of certain

journalists who, and the Nick Robinsons of this world, who have

untold anger in the real world. There are people who I know are

voting yes. Senior people who've not declared, who're now likely to

declare publicly because of their absolute outrage at the way in which

certain parts of the media have chosen to portray this debate. This

has enner sized Scottish politics, energised communities the length and

breadth. We are going to have an 80% turnout, 97% of the people are

registered and... Voting no! And it's been sneered at, talked down

and been misrepresented just like that!

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

We have seen yet another example of nationalism.

We are in a position where on Wednesday we had every Scottish bank

announcing that they would move their registered office.

Let us hear his answer. And in the morning.

Ladies and gentlemen, hang on a second. Shouting is all very well,

but I would quite like to hear people's Annes as well. On the

morning the Prime Minister attacked the BBC five times, then Nick

Robinson live at the Scottish National Party we are holding. Why

has he done that? Maybe it's because the BBC's coverage hasn't been very

good. Personally I think politicians

complaining about the media are like fish complaining about the sea, but

why has he done this? He's a clever man, the First Minister. First of

all, he wants to fool people, and we heard it again this evening, to

somehow suggest that we are too put upon by people outside of Scotland

to be able to reach our own independent judgments which is

incidentally what the Sunday Post, Scotsman on the independent on

Scotland have done. I will fight from now until Thursday at 10

o'clock to defy a First Minister who suggests only he understands what's

good for Scotland. The woman with the red scarf?

I think it's shameful for the Labour Party to collude with not only the

media but with big money as well. If you look at the social media, you

will see the YouTube video showing the clip that was shown by Nick

Robinson on the BBC and actually what happened in reality, Alex

Salmond answered the question that he was asked about the currency. I

think it's shameful that you don't even represent the people of

Scotland. Douglas Alexander? Then Elaine C

Smith. The nationalists are struggling with

the facts and so they are trying to change the subject. Point one.

Secondly, let's have no doubt they are laying down the foundation of a

betrayal myth. They want, after they lose on Thursday, to be able to say

it was London-based newspapers, it was the BBC. We are smarter than

that. We are reaching our own decisions and nobody, including the

First Minister, is going to intimidate us away from making our

independent choice. The man in the tie, then Elaine, I

promise I'll come to you. If they had been handing out gold medals at

the Olympics for sneer, then Alex Salmond, Stewart Hosie and the rest

of team Scotland would have got the gold for sure.

I just think all of us here should at least have some respect for the

genuine grievances that are out there about the way the media have

behaved. This isn't... I'm in the campaign and you may have a certain

opinion about it, but this is a genuine movement out there. Could I

say, when we are talking about nationalism, why is it all right for

the whole of the media to be purporting British nationalism. Why

is British nationalism good and Scottish Nationalism is bad?

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

You? I'm an undecideder and with all the negativity particularly from

south of the border, I wonder what will happen if there's a yes vote

and yes wins on Thursday. How will the UK Government, you know, will

they support or hinder the independence for Scotland? We may

come to that. We'll stick to the media at the moment for now and come

to the man here? Yes? The Yes Campaign is larger than Alex

Salmond, it's more than one man. We are hearing the constant attacks on

one man. We are a movement. Thank you.

Ruth Davidson? You don't like it. Let's hear the

answer. I absolutely understand that and how people have been involved in

this campaign who perhaps think something different like Douglas

Canavan and Douglas Harvie feels hamstrung by being tied to Alex

Salmond. When Alex Salmond goes on TV and said the White Paper is the

mandate, that is what will happen, when he goes on TV and says what is

in the White Paper would be the sovereign will, then actually, the

Yes Campaign has to take responsibility that that's the

prospectus being put on the table and if we are talking about the

media, the woman sitting next to you with the red scarf on talking about

politicians colluding with the media, well, it was rue purr Murdoch

who Tweeted he phones Alex Salmond the night before the poll to chat

with him about it. So let's not pretend this is only on one side of

this. I think there are some quite unlikely bed fellows on all sides of

this. And it's not just Alex Salmond, it's

brine Suitor and rue purr Murdoch and others on this side of the

debate. Dorothy Christos? I believe the best foundation by which we can

get the fair and equal society is 64 million people working together. I

don't want a race to the bottom on taxes, on terms and conditions for

working people on pay. That's what I fear we'll see. There's only one

measure in those 670 pages of Alex Salmond's White Paper which is about

redistribution. It doesn't redistribute money from the rich to

the poor, it actually gives a 3p tax cut to some of the richest

corporations in society. If we are serious about delivering a

fairer society, I would like to see a banker's bonus tax, money take

foreign the banks to help get young people back into work. I would like

to see an energy price freeze so the big six energy companies are held

accountable and we can get gas and electricity bills down. I would like

to see a banker's heavy so we can make sure the balance sheets of

banks are used properly for the benefit of the poorest in society.

Every one of the policies is opposed by the Scottish Government. Every

one of the policies is supported by the Labour Party. We'll be stronger

together and we can deliver that to society together. Douglas said he

wants an energy freeze. We have proposed a price cut. A far more

sensible thing to do. The enhanced childcare plan saving families

money, the Tax Credits and welfare rising in line with inflation.

Keeping and extending the living wage, keeping the educational

maintenance allowance, building on the support the Scottish Government

were gives to nose in need with the council tax, helping 500,000

vulnerable families. We have got the make political choices. So we can

continue to share the risks of keeping trident 30 miles from a city

or we can abandon it. CHEERING AND

APPLAUSE The woman in red? Speaking of a

fairer country, probably one of the key things is our NHS. I'm a

consultant surgeon, I've worked in England, I've worked in Scotland. I

grew up in India and I've seen countries where they envy our NHS.

And I know that today, as we speak, five million of us in Scotland have

many, many, many patients with diseases that are so rare that we

need currently today to seek treatments down in England. 60

different conditions. We would not be able to treat them in somed if we

didn't collaborate with colleagues in England. Medicine is becoming

more specialised and advanced. We need to collaborate together. We'll

compromise the care of these patients if we do not work more

closely and with devolution, we currently, we have already

compromised on standards because we - I try to get Monday for my

patients to make sure my nursing colleagues are paid the same as

people in England... I think we've got the point. Thank you.

Elaine C Smith? Well, I can't answer the specifics

of the NHS. I'm not Health Minister. But... It would be great if we could

hear each other. Let's hear this answer, please. I do believe,

however, that with a written constitution in Scotland, we will

enshrine the rights of people here to a Health Service that will be

free at the point of need and ensure that we have the rights to do that.

And to have a written constitution, I go back to your point, I believe

voting yes is actually the start of creating a fairer, better society.

For the last 50 years of my lifetime, I've not witnessed tho

powers or that Westminster in particular through success of

Governments have actually done enough for the people who need it

the most. That is why there is what has been referred to as a politics

of grievance, if you like, because it's not been done. The people who

need it the most, the poorest and most vulnerable and the sick have

not been looked after by the people they elected to Westminster and that

is why... ALL SPEAK AT

ONCE Ruth Davidson? A written constitution has never

fixed a broken leg. It has been solely in control of Holyrood

politicians to spend money on health. The SNP promised every pound

that came up, from health care down south, would be spent on health. And

they have not done it. Just this week, the IFS, an independent body,

said the amount of money spent on health care down south has gone up

by 4.4%, in Scotland it has gone down by 1.2%. We are spending less

and we are healing less. In the pink? Further back. You just put

your hand down the second. It was exactly the point that Ruth Davidson

has just made, in that recent IFS report, that there was a reduction

in Scotland as opposed to an increase in the rest of the UK. You

can't deny that. The man in the blue shirt? I just want to pick up on

what Stuart Hosea said about bringing down energy bills. The

actual National Grid's ?18 billion was set aside for the whole UK

National Grid. ?6 billion has gone to Scotland. Where are you going to

find the money? Through increased energy prices? Contributions on a

fairer and more equal society, the woman in the glasses? If Westminster

had any interest in creating a fairer and more equal society, why

did they not follow the recommendations of the report, set

upon oil fund and reinvest some of the money into the deprived areas of

Scotland? The banks registering themselves down south after

separation, with big business getting a 3% tax cut, who bears the

brunt of picking up the tab of continuing to fund public services

in Scotland? The woman in front? I would like to say that I respect Mr

Alexander's passion about getting things equal for Scotland. But I

worked in Lanarkshire, through the Thatcher years, through the Labour

years, and I saw what happened with the children, the unemployment. And

I feel that Westminster cannot do it. When we were in office, we

lifted 100,000 Scottish children out of poverty, 200,000 pensioners out

of poverty and didn't happen by chance, it happened by choice.

Establishing a minimum income guarantee, establishing pension

credit, establishing TV licences, all of the other changes we were

able to make, introduction of minimum wage. It's about conscious

political choices we make. That is where I disagree with the suggestion

that somehow we can place all responsibility elsewhere. We have a

responsibility. At the moment we are being offered a prospectus by Yes

Scotland that says we could have Scandinavian levels of public

services and American levels of taxation. It's just not true.

The No Campaign have been trying to perpetuate this myth that if we stay

in the union then we are going to get the best of both worlds. Do they

want to tell that to the thousands of them getting their meals from

food banks? The debate seems to have separated people into those that are

proud to be Scottish and those that are proud to be Scottish and

British. Are we going to separate the British Isles into pieces on

such a small minority vote? Mr Alexander, your government, 13

years, the poverty and social exclusion report, there was an

unbroken rise from 14% poverty in 1983, two 33% in June this year. You

have no record to stand on, sir. You caused more poverty, this government

continues to cause poverty. Record numbers of children in schools,

record number of children out of poverty. Read the report! Yes, the

man with the dark shirt? Councils at the vanguard of helping

disadvantaged groups, and yet there has been a council tax freeze for

four years. Stewart Hosie? The NHS is an issue in this referendum,

there is no doubt about it. The resources requirements are rising

every year. Reid that's not true! Let's be clear, in Scotland today,

because it is independent, we have a record number of nurses and

midwives, a record number of consultants, paramedic and dentist

numbers are up. The real threat comes from the privatisation and

charging down south which would reduce the Scottish Grant and

everybody knows it. Let's bring in this woman, I will come to you, the

woman that works in the NHS? I work in the NHS, I see specialist nurses,

in my field, they are paid... They are down banded and appallingly paid

compared to a nurse anywhere in the UK that does the same job. We cannot

fill posts in the NHS because the jobs are so unattractive. Why, if

you have a postcode lottery to be born in Dundee, should you get less

access to nursing, psychologists, than if you were born in Hull or

anywhere else in the UK? Quickly, Ruth Davidson. What Stuart just told

this audience is simply not true. The IFS have run the numbers.

Spending on health in England has gone up by 4.4%. In Scotland it has

gone down. To take heat and light out of this and get back to the lady

in the front, he said, do you want a more equal society, it is no

surprise that we would say no, they would say yes, but listen to people

that are independent. There is a reason why the Guardian newspaper

wrote its editorial to say that if you want a more equal society across

the whole of the UK, you have to vote no. There is a reason why the

IFS said if you vote yes there will be ?6 billion of extra cuts to

Scotland. Stewart Hosie? That doesn't sound equal to me. What I

actually said is if there is a No Vote the Scottish rock will continue

to fall until at least 2019. None of us want to see postcode lotteries in

terms of NHS provision. I will tell you this, it will come if we follow

the model of NHS privatisation, and charging in England. And it is not

me that if saying that. It is Andy Burnham, Labour Party Shadow Health

Secretary, who has been told to keep his mouth shut today by the Labour

Party because he is warning against the risks of NHS privatisation. Can

I answer that? I'm not finished, Douglas. If privatisation charging

happens England, we know there will be echoed to Scottish funding. -- a

cut to Scottish funding. If you could really briefly, we're running

out of time, respond to that. My mother worked in the health service

in Scotland for 40 years. I don't think somebody working in the health

service is a reason to be sighing, incidentally, I think it's a reason

to feel proud. Don't you dare try and suggest that my mother's service

is something to be sneered at. If I, for a minute, believe that a vote

for no was going to deliver the kind of changes Stuart suggested, I would

not be recommending a No Vote. The fact is, with the powers that we

have in the Scottish Parliament, the capacity to raise taxes or cut them,

the fact that we have powers across the piece in terms of funding means

that we can guarantee, with a No Vote, a publicly funded, free at the

point of need National Health Service in Scotland for ever, or as

long as we choose as Scots. Next question and I will come to you.

Claire Douglas has the next question. As a young mother, scared

and unsure of the consequences of my vote for my child and their

children, what is the one thing you can say to me to give you faith in

your campaign? Who would you like to ask first? Lane. And we have to be

brief. I'm never briefed! I am a mother as well, a grandmother

of a 16-week-old baby. My vote for yes is because I want to see a

better place for her. I actually believe that if we have the powers

and controls here in Scotland, that we can look all of the politicians

in the eyes and say, this is the kind of country we want to live in.

As I said earlier on, there will be an election in 2016, where every

single party will put out their stall. We will decide, for your

child, for my grandchild, for all of our children, which party will best

represent the needs of the people here.

It really does have to be brief at this stage. I am a dad and I want

the best for my kids, all of us want the best for Scotland. I believe the

best way to guarantee funding for the national health service, for

schools and childcare is a No Vote. I also believe we can have the

faster, better, safer change that I since most of us in Scotland want to

sit with a No Vote and the process of change starting afterwards. I am

genuinely worried as to the risks, costs and uncertainties of an

irreversible vote on Thursday for my children and children right across

Scotland. I would urge you to vote no.

I don't want the risks of UK austerity for my daughter. I want

the certainty of the Scottish people making the right decisions, not just

for my child but for everyone's child within our own nation.

Independence is absolutely normal and I want your child and my child

to grow up in a normal, independent country.

I want the children of Scotland to grow up thinking they can go

anywhere, the anything they want to do. There are no horizons. I think

we have more opportunities in our country from being one of the

countries that leads the world. I am proud of everything we have built

together, I am proud of the University network we have, I'm

proud of the armed forces we have, I am proud of the consular services

selling our goods all around this planet. I am proud of everything we

have built together and I am proud of a cradle to grave approach that

we take. It is not just children, it is when those children become

grandparents, they can be looked after with their pension. That is

why I am voting no. I'd like to go back to Clare and ask what she

thinks about what she has heard. I feel that the No Vote for me at the

moment, surely what we are living in now is the No Vote? We see all of

these promises of things, but why have we not already have all of

these things? Literally ten seconds. Stop! One of

the problems is that so many of our young people have to leave to find

work. We don't want that. Thank you. I'm sorry, that is it. The final

Referendum Debate before the big day itself is over. Remember, you can

follow all of the BBC referendum coverage this week on television,

radio and online. My sincere thanks to the panel and the audience. And,

indeed, to you at home. Thank you for watching all of these

programmes. From Zhures, good night. -- Sterling.