15/04/2014 The Referendum Debate

Welcome to The Referendum Debate. It's less than five months until

Scotland has to make a big mind. We are here in Kirkwall on Orkney, to

see if our panel and audience can help the nation reach its biggest

ever decision. On our panel tonight, one elected

politician and one campaigner from each side of the debate. The

Scottish government Minister for youth employment, Angela Constance

MSP. Also backing big yes vote tonight is broadcaster and

journalist Lesley Riddoch. A former UK Energy Minister, Brian Wilson.

And the Scottish Secretary and Shetland and Orkney MP, Alistair

Carmichael. Welcome to Kirkwall. The light of the North, Saint Magnus

Cathedral, the most northerly in Britain. Founded by the Saints

nephew to win Orcadian hearts in a power struggle for the islands,

nearly 900 years later the result of this political piety still dominates

the Kirkwall skyline. The Norsemen who rolled this archipelago till the

15th century left who rolled this archipelago till the

other ways, too. But the biggest influence on these exposed sandstone

islands was wind, wave and tied. Today, islanders are turning the

tables and trying to harness that power. Orkney is at the heart of

efforts to produce renewable energy. It is the latest plan for people who

like to make their own decisions. Orkney feels a long way from London

and Edinburgh. As ever, our audience tonight are an even mix of those for

and against independence, plus a large minority who are undecided. If

you want to join the debate at home, you can get involved on

Twitter. The questions have been submitted that the panellists have

not seen them. The first question is from Leslie Burgher. Would Scottish

independence be cataclysmic for the Western world? Watt a reference to

Lord George Robertson, his quote that it would be cataclysmic. Would

it be, Alistair Carmichael? I don't think that would be a term I would

use myself, but we have to be realistic that in fact, this is our

decision to take as Scots. We said right at the start that this was a

referendum that would be made in Scotland, decided by the people in

Scotland. Let's not ignore the fact it will have repercussions for

people both in the rest of the UK and in other parts of Europe and the

Western world as well. If you consider, for example, the question

of EU membership. It is pretty clear that a lot of the members of the

European Union currently have got part of their countries that are

looking also to secede. They will be looking very carefully at what we do

in Scotland. They will have a view on it, should we vote to be

independent. I think what he was referring to is the global power

balance. Is he simply wrong to say it would be cataclysmic in

geopolitical terms, that it would be a torrid, conflicts, difficult and

debilitating divorce, that the forces of darkness would simply love

it, is that wrong? It would be a very difficult disengagement... Is

that sensible? The UK is not just any country. We are one of the

leading countries on the world stage, we have the world's

second-largest international aid budget. We are a permanent member of

the United Nations Security Council. When you start to pick a nation that

has a position like that on the world stage then, guess, people will

look at it carefully and they will be following the debate carefully.

Angela Constance, cataclysmic? I think George Robertson's comments

were utterly over the top. The first time when I heard his comments I

thought he was talking about a Star Wars film, the battle between good

and evil. A more serious point is actually, I don't think his

comments, and it's very sad because he used to represent a Scottish

constituency, that his comments don't reflect well on Scotland or

indeed the rest of the UK. We have a civic nationalist movement in

Scotland. We have the Edinburgh agreement, both the UK Government

and the Scottish government have worked together and will agree,

whatever the outcome of the referendum. We have a peaceful,

democratic process, the most exciting debate that has taken place

about Scotland's future. I just think the comments were over the top

come out of touch and actually don't portray Scotland or the rest of the

UK in a good light. That has to be regretted because people on both

sides of the border respect the wishes of each other. I believe in

independence for many, many reasons, but it's because I want to do good

at home and abroad. I believe in the power and influence of small nations

working together and not just to make Scotland a better place but the

world that we all live in and the world that we share a far better,

more peaceful and prosperous place. Brian Wilson. I was in the United

States last week and I didn't find much sign of a cataclysm in

people's responses. What I did find was puzzlement. Anyone who'd heard,

a small minority of Americans, these questions, why is this going on, why

are you doing this? Is it about religion? No, it's not about

religion. But you speak the same language. Yes, we do. Your economies

must be very integrated. Yes, our economies are integrated. So what's

it about? It's fairly mirrored my own quick question, really, but cos

there is so much that binds us together. Why are we doing this? I

don't think we should get too hung up on a word, cataclysm, but I don't

think you can say on the one hand it's a very big thing and on the

other hand it's a very small thing. They try to sell to us that

everything will go on as before. Everything won't go on as before. A

lot of people are watching this with great care. The question of the EU,

which George also touched on, is very significant. Every country

virtually in Europe does have its own potential secessionist movement.

So when you get to the question of continuing EU membership, which is

so important to this whole debate, so important to the fishing

industry, for instance, which yesterday expressed its doubt are so

many industries. You've got to look at it not just from a Scottish point

of view, why we would want to be continuing in the EU, you have to

look at it from the point of view of other EU member states to say, what

message is going to be sent out here if our secessionist movements can

say that we leave one day and then we leave one day and then become

back into the EU the next day? That is causing major implications for

these countries. That's not exaggerate but let's not understate

either the interests that are at stake here, not just for Scotland

but for the rest of Europe as well. A lot of people are watching for

that reason. I will take a few points. Then we will come down to

Lesley Riddoch. The man at the back. George Robertson was of course about

defence. Is a policy of losing Trident and staying in NATO actually

coherent, or is it just making policy by opinion poll? We will come

onto that in a moment. Let's come down here to the man the second row.

The first Sea Lord has said today that the Navy would be greatly

weakened by independence. Here in Orkney we have the great naval base.

What I want to know is, will this be still available after an independent

Scotland for the Royal Navy, for the defence of Great Britain? Thank

you. The woman in the middle. Is this not just the establishment

clinging on to the last vestiges of an empire that is in decline and

quickly heading towards its end? And the intemperate language that is

being used is really quite pathetic. The truth is it's not a cataclysm.

It is a catalyst for positive change, not just in this country of

Scotland but all other countries within the UK and the wider world.

It's shameful really to bring in the EU debate into this, because both

these Unionist politicians on the panel know well that the

secessionist argument is irrelevant in terms of re-negotiation or access

on. There are two clear routes but no precedent. Quite a bit to get

into there. Lesley Riddoch, to come back to the question. Do you agree

with Lord Robertson's suggestion that it would be cataclysmic? I

probably can guess your answer. I worry for George. He had a thing a

couple of months ago where he came out with Scotland would begin a

Balkanisation of Europe, now we've got this cataclysm for the Western

world. It's almost as if he's getting frightened of his own

shadow. I just find this absolutely extraordinary. It made me think

sometimes when you put fireworks out, you forget you put them out and

then they go off on their own. This seems to me what this is like now,

it's almost like a lack of orchestration. There's been

agreement by lots of commentators, even within Better Together, that

that campaign has been overwhelmingly negative and been

totally scaremongering. After everyone has kind of agree, OK, it

would be good if you could be a bit more positive, off goes George on

one and then goes Justine Greening on one about international aid.

When, as somebody has already mentioned, we are way behind

Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg and Ireland in the amount of aid we

gave. So it's not a cataclysm. As has been suggested, you could look

at it differently. We are going to have a peaceful, democratic

resolution of a long-standing issue. However it is resolved, that

the white dash back that is the right way to resolve it. Alistair

Carmichael. Isn't the point here that this kind of language is

exactly what your campaign for the union had already, as Leslie says,

decided to stop doing because it was counter-productive? Whether or not

you think it is cataclysmic, it is bad politics from your point of

view. I will say this about the language. It is unfortunate. If we

are sitting here talking about whether it is cataclysmic or not,

because there are some really substantial, serious issues here.

Isn't that your fault and your site's fault in this argument? It's

not that long since the First Minister was in London telling

people of London that he lived in the dark Star. That he was talking

about the rest of the UK having thieved Scotland's oil. There has

been intemperate rant which on both sides of this debate. Frankly, it

doesn't really help us have the sort of debate that we need and that

Scotland deserves. Brian Wilson, do you agree with that? I do want to

stick to the question, which is about Lord Robertson's comments,

that these are damaging the campaign for the union? In the wider

context, all the negative than positive is, I think it's largely a

word game. One man or woman's negative is a positive. I'm

incredibly positive about all the things that have conditioned my

lifetime, that have given me my lifetime opportunities. The NHS, the

welfare state, the clearance of slum housing, the copper heads of

education, University education, for which I was certainly the first in

my family. All of these things I'm incredibly positive about and they

were achieved by gradual reform in this country. They were achieved not

just for people in Scotland from my kind of background, but in every

part of the United Kingdom. I'm incredibly positive about these

things and I don't want to see them broken up. On the other hand, I can

think of nothing more negative than breaking up a small island into

separate states in the second decade of the 21st-century. Positive and

negative can be played in both ways. I'll just come back to the point

about the first Sea Lord. I don't usually read articles like that but

I did today. It's a very measured argument. It's not threatening or

intimidating anyone, it's not about fear. It's making a statement of

fact that there is a very closely integrated Navy which has been built

up over hundreds of years. And if you start breaking it up then it's

not just a case of dividing the ships, there's jobs, training,

procurement, bases, the fact that the Navy, it's not all about

warfare, it involved just now for the hunt for the Malaysian plane,

humanitarian work. You are breaking all of that between Scotland and

what would be left of the United Kingdom. Is that positive, negative,

does it matter? It's a subjective judgment. Whether it's a good thing

to do and whether it's worth doing, I don't think it's a good thing to

do, others will disagree. Angela Constance, briefly, isn't there a

point here that no matter what your opponents say, you just simply say

it is negative and dismissive rather than engaging in debate? The track

record of the no campaign on project fear is their terminology, it's not

mine... I think it's a term they've tried to pin. Some of the points of

debate that have been raised. Brian mentioned the welfare state. We are

talking about defence at the moment. The welfare state is being

dismantled, free education is protected by the Scottish parliament

and a fact about defence is it is this UK Government, and it's Philip

Hammond who has come to Scotland and his hypocrisy is breathtaking, when

he has absolutely slashed conventional spending, including

naval resources in this country. 10,000 jobs, military defence jobs

have been lost in Scotland. Nearly 40% of the defence cuts have taken

place in Scotland. Then Philip Hammond plays a flying visit, I've

heard the phrase Tory tourist minister, won't even stay for a

proper debate. Comes up, gives us a lecture about defence. Perhaps he

should be apologising to the Armed Forces who, whilst serving their

country, have been given redundancy notices. Thank you very much indeed.

A point about Trident? I wasn't going to. It is a legitimate

question. Do it in 20 seconds. The white paper paper tells us that an

independent Scotland is to be part of NATO. Part of being in NATO is

you have to accept the nuclear concept. At the same time we are

told in the White Paper that we will not have Trident, we will have no

nuclear weapons. What we are being headed towards and this is in the

White Paper, a situation where actually the compromise will be that

Scotland may well have nuclear weapons, within our territorial

waters, but that's OK as long as nobody tells us. It is a new take on

don't ask, don't tell. APPLAUSE

Only three countries in NATO out of 28 currently have nuclear weapons.

No. No, we're leaving it there, thank you very much. We have got to

move on. Thank you very much. Right, we are going to move on to

the next question because otherwise we will only talk about one thing

all night. We will go to Meg Telfer. Meg Telfer has our next question.

Will Nicola Sturgeon's call to the Scottish Labour Party to reclaim its

roots fall on deaf ears? I best put that to Brian Wilson.

Well, you know, you take your pick. You go back just about a month and

there is a little video, it is worth looking at in which you see Alex

Salmond snarling out in Holyrood after independence, it will be

Labour no more and then you have Nicola Sturgeon say like the spider

to the fly, "Come into the parlour and we will reclaim your roots for

you." Nicola Sturgeon has spent her life denying and denigrating

anything that Labour Governments achieved. Why anyone should place

their trust in Nicola Sturgeon to seek the soul of the Labour Party, I

don't know. But what in fact... APPLAUSE

In fact, you know, it is a superficial level, it might dupe

some people. If you look at it, it is nonsense, what it does is, one it

would create in the rest of the United Kingdom, the probablity of

permanent right-wing Government, certainly more right-wing

Government. The nationalist objective is whether they get it or

not is that the rest of the United Kingdom would still be setting our

interest rates, our financial parameters, they would be our

financial masters, but it would be under a permanent Tory Government.

They would be setting the immigration policy which Scotland

would - you wouldn't have a Labour Government Government in Scotland,

you would have a nationalist Government. What happened in Ireland

that politics would continue to be divided along constitutional lines

and where you stood on the constitution rather than what I

believe to be the natural divide in society which is on the basis of

social and economic interests and that is what we are being lulled

into in which there is a false thing of nationalism and independence

versus the identity politics versus who oppose that kind of politics. I

guess that call to get back to the question, Meg's question, will fall

on some deaf ears because sadly we are so divided. This must surely be

a regret for everybody. We could probably agree on that, because in

many respects all us of on this panel probably agree on far, far

more than we would ever disagree on and yet our politics don't reflect

that. We have a situation where we can't really hear one another. We

can't pick up examples and I think we can't think larger than these

islands. Since I wasn't able to say something about NATO, I will weave

this in, it has an impact on Labour. There is a larger socio demographic.

The new head of NATO was the Prime Minister of Norway. That country has

a different outlook about nuclear weapons. It doesn't have them. Yet,

it is our new head of NATO as that kind of politician and somebody who

is seen, the provision of welfare, the establishment of equality, the

maintenance of social solidarity, words we just think are open toed

sandaled in this country. Those are the thing that put that country to

the top of every league table and at the same time, has made it a triple

credit A rated country. So they are not doing too badly on the money

front either. To me, that is the kind of party I would like to vote

for. Do you call it Labour? Do you call it the SNP? I don't know, but

that's what I would like for this country and I would like a party

that unashly espouse those values in whatever set-up we end up with after

18th September. APPLAUSE

Thank you. Please do put your hands up. Please

get involved if you have a comment to make. First of all, Angela

Constance, isn't Brian Wilson right? You have fought and battled and said

anything to do down the Labour Party for years and years and suddenly,

you are their best friends. What's going on? Listen, I have known many

people throughout my political life who have been active in the Labour

Party, who have been members of the Labour Party. Some of them I would

consider friends and some of those people come from backgrounds I grew

up in a mining village, the issues that brought me into politics, was

the need for a Scottish Parliament, but a Scottish Parliament that could

tackle issues such as unemployment. I have been conscious that

particularly in terms of Labour voters, you know, are people who

have much -- who I have much in common with, but there are

disagreements in terms of how best to achieve social justice? And what

Nicola Sturgeon was saying at the weekend and I think this is one of

the most heartening things about the independence debate going on just

now is that the Yes Campaign is inclusive. It is a broad church. It

is people of all political parties and of none and the most exciting

thing about it and politicians of all parties may or may not like

this, it is a grass-roots campaign and I have known that all my

political life and I have known there has been high levels of

support for independence amongst traditial Labour voters. Let me go

back to Meg Telfer who asked the question. If you want to contribute

keep your hands in the air. Meg, what do you think is the answer to

the question? Heavens. I agree. I just agree with

Lesley. LAUGHTER

She is the new Nick Clegg! LAUGHTER

She does not take that as a compliment!

The woman with the glasses. The woman with the glasses in the middle

and the blond hair, yes. I thought the yes and No Campaign was about a

nation voting for independence, not about a Labour Party or SNP or

Conservative or who is there going to be in control after 18th

September, I thought this was about a country voting for what they want,

not what party they want because there is people in the Labour Party,

Green Party, Conservative Party, SNP, some vote yes, some vote no.

This is about a nation, not about political parties. Thank you.

APPLAUSE My question was around the fact that

come, if it is a yes vote, will the SNP seize to be given that they have

completed their objective. I would like the panel to answer that,

please. You won't cease to be? No. Good, thank you!

Moving on! They say not. Yes, the man in the middle with the glasses.

Yes? I wanted to state that I think we

would put more weight behind Brian Wilson's comments about having a

right-wing Government in the rest of the UK forever more if we gain

independence if the Labour Party were put in a more effective

opposition at Westminster. I feel that they had the opportunity to

vote on the bedroom tax a short while ago and they failed to do

that. A lot of Scottish Labour MPs in the vote there. Thank you.

Alistair Carmichael, isn't the point here that the point that Nicola

Sturgeon was trying to make in her speech is not that, if you do want

to make a decision about your political future, in independence,

the people of Scotland get the Government that they want. Whether

that's Labour or the SNP, you have to be independent for that to be

guaranteed? Let's be clear what Nicola was doing here. She has

identified in order to get a majority for independence then she

is going to have to speak to and get people who are traditionally opposed

to her party and it was a naked and cynical pitch at that. It is not for

me to give advice to the Labour Party, but if I were, I think I

would probably say be ware of Scottish Nationalists wearing gifts

of traditional socialism because you know, it is a pretty cynical pitch

at that. It is working, would you not say it

is working when you see the polls? No, those who want to remain part of

the United Kingdom are ahead and the only poll that really matters is one

we will have on 18th September. But I'm interested in some of what

Lesley was saying about social demographic values because that has

been what has been reflected in Scottish voting patterns in recent

years and that is a reflection of the fact that we have a particular

range of social issues and challenges in Scotland. These are

the same challenges that are shared by many people in Liverpool, in

Newcastle, in Manchester, in Cardiff and Belfast. And you know, if you

want to meet these challenges, you don't meet the challenges just by

drawing a line in the map and turning your back on these people.

You meet these challenges by reaching out to them and making

common cause with them. APPLAUSE

OK. Briefly. You know, yes there is a tremendous amount that is

fantastic and admirable in the social service provision model. I am

a fan of a lot of it. Let's not kid our selves that it is cheap. Denmark

takes 47% of its nation's GDP in tax. In this country, it is 36%. Is

there the appetite to pay that level of taxation? In Scotland, if you

look at it, the one time when you have actually had that offered as a

proposition was in 2003, you remember John Swinney and the SNP

offering a penny for Scotland? It was the worst election result the

SNP had since devolution. Can I say something here?

APPLAUSE I would love to know what you think

of the Nordic countries? Would you like Scotland to have the best rates

of child well-being in the world? Would you like us to have the best

placed education results? Would you like us to have these things? A lot

of these things, but the truth of the matter... The wealthiest country

in the world. You asked a question, let me answer it. The truth of the

matter is that you can't go around the would world picking and micking,

take -- mixing, taking bits from this country... I asked you whether

you would like this country to have the standards of the Nordic

countries. You asked the question. Now let me finish it. The truth of

the matter is when as a politician, I offer myself towards the

electorate as you did once upon a time and then you stand on a whole

package. It is not just about you spend the money, it is about how you

raise it. You haven't answered my question.

APPLAUSE Angela Constance and then Brian

Wilson. If it is the whole package, let's have a Scottish Parliament in

Edinburgh that can fully mobile identities its -- mobilise its

resources of this rich nation of ours. Let's have control overall the

spending and all the raising of taxes and let's have a Government,

the Government that we vote for. Let's have a Government that, let's

get the Government we vote for each and every time. Two-thirds of my

life I have had, a UK Government, that Scotland, not that I just

didn't vote for them, but Scotland didn't vote for. There is a deficit

in this country and we need a Parliament now more than ever that

controls both sides of the balance sheet instead of a UK Government

that's dismantling the Welfare State.

Thank you. Brian Wilson, quickly. We're going to take a question

related to this. Brian, quickly. Two thirds of the Scottish government

didn't vote for your government, and we live under a because we live in a

democracy. Second point, you can't pick and mix. Get a common line. Of

course we could have Nordic standards of this, that and the next

thing, but we'd pay Nordic taxation. Why does everybody keeps citing

these countries... Thank you both very much indeed. Please, there is

no point if everyone is going to shout over each other. I want to say

one thing quickly, then we will take another question and then we will

all speak one at a time. You can join the debate tonight. You can do

it yourself, you will probably not be as noisy as the panel, but you

can use our hashtag on Twitter. You can also e-mail us. There are a

selection of your comments on the BBC Scotland News website. Let's

take another question. It comes from Sally Inkster. Recent polls have

shown that less than a third of women support independence. I

wondered if the panellists would have a theory as to why that was. I

have to say that I feel it's very hard to get yourself heard when

there's a lot of male voices around sometimes, when you get shouted

down. And when you are trying to open up perhaps a layer of the

debate that hasn't been done before. I just wish we could get a bit

further than the heightened response is that we often get. I think what

women are used to is seeing a new boss the same as the old boss. I

think a lot of people are used to that. If you look at the history

throughout history, women, for example, spend 67 years in this

country to get the vote. They finally got it in 1928, that was

very late compared to some other countries. There was huge hopes

about what that would mean. Actually, what that meant was that

woman's Paiute still remained at 40% of men's paper decade. After the

war, women had jobs and they were told to get out of them to let men

come into them after the war. All of those times women have been told

that something different was going to happen, that a new deal was just

around the corner. It just kind of never quite transpired. I think all

sorts of people are sceptical about the promises of change if one thing

happens that's probably fair enough. But of all those people who

are sceptical, women are perhaps the most sceptical because what often

happens with changes is that it's the same type of person that remains

in charge. And the only point of having a change this time would be

to create a different kind of society in Scotland, which is a much

more egalitarian one and one in which women would have much more of

a chance of equal participation and the latter game changer that surely

must come, or whichever party wins, which ever yes or no wins and

whichever party wins the next election, we have to get affordable

childcare as an absolute benchmark of society in Scotland because we

are lagging so far behind. I think women are watchful of that,

wondering about the promise being allied to the independence vote,

hopeful that it would come but still needing a bit more persuading.

Angela Constance, you, congratulations, were promoted into

the Scottish Cabinet this week, in a move that some people have seen is

not unrelated to the SNP's attempt to persuade more women to vote for

independence. Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish

Conservatives, said it was a particularly cynical stunt, the very

worst type of tokenism. What do you think of that? I think it's

absolutely imperative, given the economic climate, although there are

some signs of economic recovery. It is imperative that young people and

women and their place in work and place in the economy, that those

needs are represented at the very highest level of Scottish

government. The First Minister made the decision to appoint me and Shona

Robinson to the Cabinet. I think what he has demonstrated is that the

Scottish Government can lead the way. We've set out in the White

Paper that the Scotland we seek will have a minimal of 40% representation

of women in a whole host of companies and public boards. If I

can relate that to the next question. And on the less, women

seem to be lagging behind again and again in the polls, saying they

would vote yes. One poll put support for independence at just 28.5% and

falling. Why do you think that is? The most recent polls I have seen

show that support for independence amongst women was actually rising.

Nonetheless, we need to do more because women are 52% of the

population. They've got absolutely every right for their interests,

needs and aspirations to be fully represented and engaged. Why do you

think they are not? It is often about the practicalities of life.

Irrespective of whether you are a woman who stays at home to look

after children or whether you are a working mother. Quite often you've

got quite a lot on your plate as it is in terms of childcare. We know

the barriers that women face in terms of access of affordable,

high-quality childcare, which is the biggest barrier to women actually

getting into work. That's why the independence debate and the focus

that we are now having for the first time ever, we are now having a real

debate about the provision of universal childcare in this country.

And for the first time ever we've got a plan to achieve universal

childcare in Scotland within a generation. By back row Sally, I

just gave the wrong name, Sally was shaking her head. Please contribute,

put your hands up, but, Sally, why were you shaking your head? I think

it is those who don't know who are driving the statistic. I think they

are waiting for the grown-up conversation to stop. -- to start.

To pick up Sally's point, I'm very wary of this idea that people are

sitting waiting for debate because, frankly, if this debate is to be

conducted solely between you and amongst politicians then it will be

pretty sterile and unproductive indeed. This is a debate for a

decision like no other that we will ever face. Sally, if you are sitting

waiting for the debate to improve, and I have to say in all the years

I've known you, I've never known you to take that particular approach to

a debate, then don't. Get out there. If you don't like the tenor

of the debate then get involved and improve it. Why do women seem to be

less enthusiastic about independence than others? That is a very

difficult question for any man to answer. And to come out with his

life intact! I have my suspicions, if I can put it like that. I think

that women are more drawn to arguments of the head rather than

the heart. In talking to people on the doorstep, I feel that women in

particular are saying, well, what will this mean for me, my household

budget, my children, for all of the others... Shall we ask a woman in

the audience? Can I just make a point about childcare? Childcare is

one of the most empowering and enabling services that a government

can give to a woman wanting to go back into... Or forum father,

indeed, yes, to go back into the workplace in particular. But this is

something that the Scottish Government already has the power to

do. It is something that has been done in Westminster... In fact,

already the situation south of the border is for three and four

-year-olds, you get 570 hours a year free childcare. It's less in

Scotland. I want to take some views from our audience. I find some of

the policy is insulting. I don't agree with there being certain

percentages. I'm a woman and I want a job because I'm the best, I don't

want to be a statistic. And I also disagree with the childcare policy.

Obviously we want better childcare but I'm sceptical about the figures.

When someone says we don't have the full figures yet, it is hard to

trust somebody and trust policy. You were just talking about arguments of

the head and what's in it for me. As a young woman, what's in it for me

right now? I'm going to get paid less, I'm going to be excluded from

things like education and good employment because of caring

responsibilities. There's no point denying that because in education

even, women with caring responsibilities are excluded. I've

got colleagues in the student movement who have been penalised

because they've turned up to a lecture late, having notified that

they were going to pick up their child. Universal childcare is

absolutely essential. I used to not be in favour in gender quotas, but

now there's an absolute need for them because it's not happening.

Women don't see themselves in those positions. Do you think that

independence would help or hinder that? I think it would help it. So

far, the last 200 years hasn't. The man up there. The social policy that

was mentioned about the NHS and the welfare state and also the social

policy to create better quality with women, the Westminster government

seems to be charging away from that and going on a separatist move away

from the rest of Europe. Whereas Scotland is trying to remain as part

of the more progressive states in Europe. This allegation that the

Westminster coalition is dismantling the welfare state. Presumably that

would play well with women voters. No, but devolution, the Labour

government created a Scottish parliament, so that on many of these

issues Scotland can do different things, which it does. But I want to

go back to the question, why are more women resisting? I think women

are better at recognising bluster and bad patter. Maybe they are

better at reading a book than looking in the crystal ball. If you

take something like childcare, women know, anybody with any sense knows

you don't need to change the constitution in order to build more

nurseries. But as has been pointed out, when the Nationalists came into

office, Scotland had a better level of childcare than the rest of the

UK, a higher number of hours. We now have to catch up because the money

that has come to Scotland through the Barnett formula for childcare

has not been used for that purpose. To use childcare as a bargaining

chip in the constitutional debate is very, very dishonest. I will give

you another, the lady who spoke about students. There is an

astonishing statistic that since 2007, the number of people going

into further education colleges each year has dropped by 35%. There are

100 and 40,000 fewer people this year in further education colleges

than they're worth in 2007. And that, because it is mostly part-time

places that have gone, 93,000 of that 140,000 women, because they,

for childcare reasons, that they are more likely to be on part-time

courses. Why is a party and a government which is supposedly so

concerned about the rights of women and their childcare and all the rest

of it, why, and I'm sure you've got good intentions personally, but why

have you cut 140,000 college places? We've not. Women are not

underrepresented in our college sector. 93,000 fewer women. We have

more young people, and most of those young people are young women, doing

full-time courses that lead to recognised qualifications that will

increase their employment prospects. Women are not underrepresented in

the college sector. Where they are under represented is in certain

sectors of the economy, growth sectors of the economy, whether it

is ICT, engineering, and we need to get more women into things like

renewable energy. That is why we need full economic control. That is

why we need full control over you quality measures. In terms of the

childcare... And apprentices as well? Know, we've not. Higher-level

apprentices in Scotland are growing. If we could just park some of this

for the moment. Do we not want to move to a situation where we have a

much more cooperative, consensual way of working? Do we want to dump

competitive, backstabbing, driven kind of behaviour which always puts

the elite first and never puts the average person first? That's the

mark of a society that we are trying to create. We wouldn't be sitting

here, we just wouldn't, if we hadn't witnessed a change in what is

characteristic of the values of the way that the UK operates. So that

many of us watch particularly Conservative conferences as if we

are watching aliens on another planet. We don't have three star

hospitals here. They do south of the border. We don't have the opt-out

academies, we don't have the belief that the market is the only dynamic

that works in life. We are trying to do something different. And we have

been since Scots, for all sorts of reasons, voted Labour since the

party's inception. It has been trying to express a different set of

ideas. So the point is those ideas, that come sensible way of working,

something that looks at where the average of the population is, not

just the elite, which is the constant way that the UK seems to

measure success, that is the kind of society most women want

particularly, because they do well in consensual situations. If you are

looking that kind of way forward and that is part of the reason that

personally I will be voting yes, because I think that's the kind of

society that is trying to get out in Scotland and is being put back in

the box constantly by a completely top-down, competitive, driven market

economy type of government in London. We will take a couple more

points. Yes, the woman in the middle. Yes? We need a massive

amount of money to turn around the poverty of aspiration among women

and the material poverty that children face. That cannot be done

with pocket money from the Westminster Government. It is a

massive task and it needs the full amount of economic leavers that we

we can get from independence to do that.

APPLAUSE It is not just women who are waiting

for a grown-up debate to start, I can assure you that is men as well.

I would like to thank Lesley for at least trying to get to a different

level of debate. We are only having half a debate. We have not had any

vision. We have had no idea of what might happen if other parties, not

unreasonably might be in charge, of an independent Scotland. We have had

a Lib Dem, and Labour coalition before in the Scottish Parliament.

We have heard nothing from other parties to give a broad debate on

both sides so we can actually think what might be the case in an

independent Scotland. Thank you very much.

APPLAUSE We will take another question. The

next question is from Amy Liptrot. Would the future for the renewable

energy industry be more secure in an independent Scotland? Wot future for

the renewables energy be more secure in an independent Scotland? Angela

Constance. Yes, absolutely. At this current time, our renewable energy

sector I would argue has been held back by some of the decisions that

have been made by the Westminster Government. We know that energy

costs have been rising over the past 15 years, in fact household energy

bills on average have risen by 50%. We know there is growing concerns

about the supply, the security of supply issues and we have a

wonderful opportunity in Scotland, we have a quarter of Europe's

renewable energy capacity. Scotland has is a net exporter of

electricity. The lights in the rest of the UK would go out if it was not

for Scotland exporting electricity. So we have a sector that's growing.

Jobs and investment in renewable energy. It has increased over the

last three year period, but we need to be doing more. This is a huge

opportunity for Scotland and we need to be now more than ever, very

focussed on the areas of our economy with that growth potential and we

nuble energy is -- renewable energy is an excellent example of the

future and the way forward for our economy. I imagine people have views

on renewable energy. Keep your hands up. Brian Wilson, of course, was an

Energy Minister. What do you think? Would it be more secure? We could go

on all night. Even my breath was taken away when she said we export a

quarter of our electricity to the rest of the UK. We export a quarter

of our UK because we have two nuclear power stations which we are

going to close down. So the first point. The other thing about being

held back by the rest of the UK. We have massive investment in, we have

significant investment in renewable energy at the present time because

it is paid for by consumers throughout the United Kingdom. 90%

of it is paid throughout the UK. ?6 billion has been spent on cre

eighting the -- creating the infrastructure which I did have a

hand in initiating for the whole of GB so we could export renewable

energy to the rest of the UK. But if we do not have a single stake in a

single market, the idea that consumers in the rest of Britain are

going to continue to pay 90% in order to subsidise Scottish

renewables is delusional. It is not true. We have a fantastic facility

in Orkney which was created when I was Energy Minister between the

United Kingdom Government and Highlands Enterprise. We should be

promoting these things, it is central to the whole renewable thing

is where Scotland can do more on renewables is we have the market

into which to sell that energy. Why, if you break it up into separate

states, you break it up into separate markets and people in

London are not going to subsidise your building cables to the Western

Isles or Orkney or Shetland. Why would they? If they choose to be a

foreign state, we must face the consequences of being a foreign

state. Yes, the man with the hat. How could I miss you with your hat?

It is amazing. We don't have connector here. Alistair Carmichael,

why does Fergus have to appeal for a connector when Alistair Carmichael

sees him every day? We will come down to Mr Carmichael

in a moment. I would like to see the renewables put back into the

community rather than lots of people in Scotland making a fortune from

it. I would like to see our pensioners get some of that free

energy that is being given to the wealthy people who have got the

turbines over our island. APPLAUSE

OK. Thank you. The man in purple, I suppose? You mentioned about us not,

about connecting us to the grid. We are not connected to the grid in

Orkney. Is that likely to happen if we stay in the UK?

Thank you. It is all on hold. Why are they going to spend hundreds of

millions of pounds at the present time on these connections when they

don't know whether in two or three years time we will be part of the

same market or not? Yes. I would like go to the room

here. This side of the panel haven't had a word at all. I would like to

take the woman and then Lesley and Alistair.

I am a post-graduate renewable energy student and I have been told

it will be ten years before we get this connection. It is not something

that should be down to the referendum. The UK Government and

Scottish Hydroare bound by Ofgem to make these decisions and everybody

is pointing their fingers at each other as to who is going to take the

responsibility. In Orkney 103% of the electricity was generated. We

were unable to export the electricity. I think this, the

question I had written down as well as Amy, absolutely, I think, that in

the light of independence, and it being an independent Scotland, it

will be much higher on the priority list to get areas linked up than it

is currently. ? Thank you very much.

APPLAUSE Lesley Riddoch and then Alistair

Carmichael. I came across extraordinary figures which came out

last month. They describe how much renewable energy is as a proportion

of the whole energy mix for reach country of the 28 who have agreed to

have targets for 2020. Amazingly, the UK is third bottom with Malta

and Luxembourg producing only 4.2% renewable energy as part of its mix.

The EU average is 14%. The best are Norway, sorry to keep mentioning

them, folks and a lot of the other nationses are around -- nations are

around 40 or 50. If the renewable energy industry is safe in the UK's

hands, why are we bottom? Why has there been so little

investment to get the show on the road? People will be aware that we

have a phenomenal renewable resource and I know there is arguments where

people feel they don't like looking at wind turbines, but you can't

argue about the resource, we have in Scotland got one of the best

renewable resources in the whole she bang. In international panel on

climate change came out and said that the world is warming at twice

the previous rate, but if we treble or quadruple renewable energy

production we can do something about it. Now, Scotland sitting in a sweet

space. We could be getting on with this if we could allow all the

islands to be connected and to take the other lady's point up,

absolutely. There should be community based renewables because

that's the other reason there has been objections. Shall we put these

points to Alistair Carmichael then? There is a lot that Lesley says that

I agree with. I see a tremendous amount of potential in Scotland's

islands for the development of wave, tidal tower in addition to the --

power in addition to the wind power that we've got. That's why

Government brought an island strike price swi a higher level of subsidy

for a wind generated in the island communities. There is no reason why

that can't be extended to wave and tidal power... Because there isn't a

connector. You can't supply it to anybody!

APPLAUSE Stick with me here, Lesley. This is

important. Please don't be patronising, Alistair.

I didn't mean it to sound patronising. It wasn't my intention

of the truth of the matter is that we have got a tremendous resource

here. The interconnector application is something that will come on. Come

on, let's have a bet. Five years? Is this part of your sensible debate.

I'm asking why not? Who are the people who have to make the needs

based case to Ofgem are going ahead with that. But the question... We

are nearly out of time. The question that was asked was one about the

future of the industry. The truth of the matter is that renewables are

going to need a high level of subsidy for the foreseeable future

in order to get them to realise the potential that we've got. That

subsidy comes from bill payers across the whole of the United

Kingdom, 28% of that money from bill payers comes to projects in

Scotland. That's one of the things from which we are being asked to

walk away. A brief response from Angela Constance, please. It is very

interesting when the Westminster parties talk about subsidy because

the one subsidy they never mention is the subsidy of North Sea Oil

going to the London treasury. Thank you very much. I am a' frayed

that's -- I am afraid that's it, thank you very much indeed for

contributing to the debate. The hour is up. The programme is on a break

until 8th July and we will be in Portree.

If you want to join our audience for any of our programmes, please go

online and search for BBC Referendum Debate. From Kirkwall in the Orkney

Islands, good night.