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Tonight, half of the entire studio audience is 21 and under. | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
Sitting opposite, our older audience. | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
And at the heart of this show, the top table. | :00:16. | :00:43. | |
On this programme, we really are giving young people priority | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
because that's a voice that is sometimes missing | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
What does a new generation actually want? | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
One half of this entire studio is filled with people aged 21 or under. | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
The other half is older and we've politicians from all five | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
of Northern Ireland's main parties here tonight too. | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
But on this show, and it will always be the same, | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
young people have the seats facing them at the top table. | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
Joining us at the top table tonight... | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
Thomas Copeland, Aoife Hollywood, Jack O'Dwyer-Henry, | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
Right, let's get stuck into the first question. | :01:34. | :01:50. | |
There it is tonight, the first question is about Brexit | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
What's more important to you - living in the UK | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
I'm going to start off just by saying I'd rather live | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
in the world's fifth largest economy than the world's 40th | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
I know that there are ideological reasons why perhaps Ireland should | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
be unified, but I don't want to have to pay 50 euros every time | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
I want to live in a country where the NHS is free on delivery. | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
And as well as that, I think it's very important | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
to stress, let's not pre-empt the results of Brexit. | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
We don't know what's going to happen, and anyone who says | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
they do know what's going to happen after Brexit is lying. | :02:28. | :02:29. | |
You want to run the referendum again, you want a second vote. | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
I want a second vote on the terms of the final deal. | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
So you're not going to accept the referendum result? | :02:41. | :02:42. | |
I want another referendum on the terms of the final deal, | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
and that's so important for Northern Ireland. | :02:47. | :02:48. | |
We are the only place to have a hard border. | :02:49. | :02:50. | |
We need to be able to have another shout out as to | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
I believe passionately in the United Kingdom. | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
It is, as Thomas has said, one of the fastest-growing | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
It is a fact that the Irish Republic does more trade with | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
the United Kingdom than anywhere else in the world so also | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
the Republic is tied in very strongly, in trading terms, | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
And so we need to ensure that we get the best deal possible from Brexit, | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
and that's what we will be seeking to ensure. | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
A second go at it, let's look at the deal first? | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
We elect Members of Parliament and we've got a general election | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
right now and every person here will have a vote, | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
I hope, in that election, and you will elect people to go | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
and represent you and therefore Parliament now has the mandate, | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
and I think it was right for Theresa May to call an election, | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
to seek a mandate to negotiate, and I don't think she has had to go | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
back to have a second referendum because, actually, | :03:56. | :03:57. | |
and this is important, Stephen, it ties her hands, | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
It ties the hand of the Prime Minister, and I think it gives | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
So I think, at this stage, we don't need to have a second referendum. | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
If I had been able to vote, and only 17, I would have voted Remain. | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
Seeing the results of the referendum, I do understand | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
that there needs to be special status for the six counties. | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
What's your stand on that, the special status? | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
I assume the six counties you are referring to is | :04:27. | :04:28. | |
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom | :04:29. | :04:38. | |
and we are the only part of the UK that has a land border with a EU | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
member state, so that's right, we are different from other parts | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
of the UK and there will need to be special arrangements. | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
But here's the challenge and a problem for us. | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
Well, special arrangements because we have a land | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
border and therefore, unlike any other part of the UK... | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
We have a majority that would vote Remain. | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
The United Kingdom held a referendum and the United Kingdom voted | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
to leave, and we have to respect that. | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
A lot of people talk about respect... | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
You have to understand that the six counties is a special... | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
And you have to understand that the six counties that | :05:11. | :05:12. | |
you describe and that I call Northern Ireland is part | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
of the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom of Great Britain | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
and Northern Ireland, and in a referendum held | :05:18. | :05:19. | |
in the United Kingdom, the people voted to leave. | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
Now, we can re-fight that battle is we want, | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
but what we really need to do is negotiate the best deal | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
But here's the amazing thing, Sir Jeffrey. | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
They told us that Brexit would be a panacea, there'd be | :05:35. | :05:45. | |
a new era of progress, and the reality is... | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
It's good to see the DUP immediately... | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
..is diving back to the past and division. | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
But here's the issue of Brexit and why the DUP know | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
they have sold us a pop, because I can't see any young | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
person, when they look at the bounty of Europe, | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
whether it's my children or our grandchildren, | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
that would deny themselves, to cut themselves off | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
You say you can't see any one person. | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
You're looking at one tonight - Calvin. | :06:19. | :06:19. | |
Tell them why you believe that we should be leaving the EU. | :06:20. | :06:29. | |
Well, Stephen, I believe that Northern Ireland, or the UK, sorry, | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
should be free from the EU because we are democrats | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
and the EU is completely and utterly undemocratic. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
I appreciate that and understand that, but if the majority of people | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
in what you call the UK vote to leave, but the majority | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
The majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
within the UK so that means that we are part of the UK. | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
The majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
part of the UK and therefore with the UK-wide vote, so we have | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
The founding agreement of the peace process | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
It talks about the principle of consent. | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
What percentage of people want to remain within the United Kingdom? | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
It's significantly higher than those that want to remain | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
So therefore, the majority of people in Northern Ireland want to be part | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
of the United Kingdom, so therefore we have | :07:24. | :07:24. | |
There may be a unity referendum soon and we'll find out | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
what the percentages are but, in the meantime, Calvin, | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
you're almost saying to me, it doesn't matter how many jobs | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
are lost, how many farmers lose jobs, how much money | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
What about the potential benefits from Brexit? | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
Are you saying it doesn't matter what damage is done to the economy, | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
how it stunts our economic growth, how it cuts us off, how | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
Is that what you're saying, because somebody in Walsall | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
or Bristol or Birmingham, and fair play to them, | :07:57. | :07:58. | |
let them enjoy Brexit, are you saying because they have | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
voted for this in England and Wales, because Scotland didn't, | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
that it doesn't matter what damage it does to the economy | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
Because if you are, that's fair enough. | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
Are you not the same man representing the same party that | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
slammed the EU for imposing austerity on the likes of Greece? | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
I am one and the same and I will be critical of the EU and, | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
unlike anyone else at this table, I have addressed 27 ministers | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
for Europe in Brussels about how best to repair this damage that's | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
I think the more that Jeffrey and the Brexiteers go | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
on about the Democratic mandate and how that justifies | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
leaving the European Union, that's betraying the fact that that | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
argument hasn't actually been one in that there isn't an hasn't been | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
made a compelling case for the benefits of leaving | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
I'm still left completely unconvinced as to why | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
Northern Ireland obviously has voted to remain, | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
but I would like Jeffrey to outline exactly what he thinks will benefit | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Northern Ireland from leaving the European Union because, | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
as far as I see it, that argument hasn't been effectively made. | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
And Jeffrey, you can pick that up in a second. | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
Where did your party stand on this, by the way? | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
We recognised the democratic will of the United Kingdom | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
We said that we recognised this was a UK-wide vote and the majority | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
of the people of the United Kingdom decided they were willing to leave, | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
and we respected that, and our MPs voted for that in Westminster. | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
But let's be clear, the days of Remainers | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
The United Kingdom is leaving the European Union. | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
What we need now are 18 MPs sitting on the benches of Westminster, | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
arguing for the best possible deal for everybody in Northern Ireland, | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
and that is how we will get the best result. | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
Aoife, you live on the border, right? | :09:53. | :09:53. | |
I live right beside the border and that's such | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
Girls in my school will have to cross the border every day, | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
Different things, like cost controls. | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
There is a statistic that 3% of the GDP in | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
That's thousands of jobs, tens of thousands of jobs. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
That was a statistic on the BBC, that 3% of the GDP | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
Before we ever joined the European Union, we had a common | :10:24. | :10:34. | |
The idea that people living in Newry are going | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
to have their lives changed by Brexit in that they are going | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
to be stopped at the border every day is just a myth, | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
Well, how are you going to control immigration? | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
I'm interested that you suggest that someone who travels from Newry | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
to Dundalk and back has to go through immigration. | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
I'm saying that immigrants coming from Dublin, the richest part | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
of the European Union, will have to come through Newry | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
and then they could be going into the British Isles. | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
There's going to have to be some control, and you just can't... | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
Naomi, do you believe there will have to be a border? | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
There will have to be some kind of control, that's obvious, | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
and the reason I say that is because, if you go to any | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
country that has a border, a land border with an EU state, | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
So until somebody shows me an example where there are none, | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
I'm not going to be convinced about this. | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
Well, no, actually, I was in Switzerland last summer, | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
You didn't bring me back a Toblerone! | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
But, honestly, you have to go through, you have to pay, | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
you have to get a vignette for your car when you go | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
You can only work there for so many days of the year before | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
So it's nonsense to say that it's borderless. | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
You go through checkpoints, and this is important, Stephen. | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
All of the people who are saying that there won't be checkpoints | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
can't give you a single concrete example of that because it's fine | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
to talk about the common travel area, but we are now talking | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
about differentiating our immigration and our customs | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
That was never the case before, and that's the fundamental difference. | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
I don't think it's any secret that our party has always been | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
strongly pro-Europe and, actually, was the first | :12:20. | :12:21. | |
party that articulated an argument for special status, | :12:22. | :12:23. | |
call it what you will, but special relationship. | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
A special relationship for Northern Ireland. | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
But Stephen, can I tell you the argument... | :12:30. | :12:30. | |
No, tell me what special status means. | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
It means actually having recognition of the fact | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
that Northern Ireland, the North, the six counties, | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
actually is the only part of these islands which has a land border | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
We've already seen some concessions in terms of if a united Ireland... | :12:41. | :12:51. | |
Would we stay in the EU under the special status? | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
We would be able to stay in the EU, but they should have | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
special measures in terms of support from Europe. | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
We need the imagination and the innovation | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
Well, you will do it because the 28 states will agree to that, | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
You can't have a special status outside the EU. | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
The point I'd just like to make there, in actual fact, | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
individual parts of certain countries couldn't | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
What we are trying to fight for is that we have MPs | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
and we have a strong executive that can deal with the issue | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
of the border, and the reason I think, by the way, | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
Jeffrey, that we should have an independent referendum | :13:31. | :13:31. | |
Tell me about this ruling by know nothing about. | :13:32. | :13:41. | |
It just showed that it was based around Catalonia, and EU said, | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
and Jeffrey, back me up on this, that individual parts of certain | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
countries couldn't seek sincere special status within the EU, | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
and it came out of the fact that Nicola Sturgeon wanted Scotland | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
That's not a complete picture because the kingdom of Denmark makes | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
up the Faroe Islands, Greenland as well as mainland | :14:00. | :14:01. | |
Denmark, and yet the Faroe Islands and Greenland negotiated a Leave | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
while the rest of the kingdom of Denmark remained in, | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
so there are anomalies within the EU. | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
In fact, one of the important things, Stephen, about the EU, | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
if we're going to be honest, one of the really good things | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
about it, is it is innovative, it is flexible and it is creative | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
when it comes to trying to deal with these sorts of issues. | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
I wonder, by the way, does Brexit make a united | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
I think, yes, definitely, because it shows that the people | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
of England and Wales, their priority isn't | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
Northern Ireland and they are capable of making the decision that | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
will negatively affect Northern Ireland in terms | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
of the border, and that's an issue that was never discussed | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
international debate in the UK, and it hasn't been | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
Let's hear what we're saying in the audience tonight. | :14:43. | :14:51. | |
I find it pretty disgusting that in the first five minutes of | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
this show, Brexit has been reduced to a mere green and orange issue | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
yet again by the politicians of this country. | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
The biggest issue that will face this country in 30, 40 years and | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
it's being reduced again to a mere green and orange, | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
So, is there a politician you'd like to speak to | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
I would just put out a general question of how can we face | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
Brexit if we don't even have an Executive in this country? | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
I think what's most worrying about this is that every | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
other part of the British Isles has a paper | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
on response to Brexit except for Northern Ireland because | :15:40. | :15:41. | |
the Executive was never able to put one together. | :15:42. | :15:43. | |
It was a two-page letter written in August and since that, | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
Did Mike and Colin not put anything together? | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
The Ulster Unionist Party produced a paper that was handed over to | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
Theresa May in November, but the fact of the matter is there is no | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
one speaking, as the member of the audience said, for a collective | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
voice for Northern Ireland and that is concerning. | :16:02. | :16:02. | |
The sad reality is the referendum's over, so we have a | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
Conservative Government who will likely have a large majority after | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
this election so the unfortunate thing is that this is | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
Any remainers, the referendum's over. | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
Fight the election on your point, but it's | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
It seems quite clear to me that the DUP | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
clearly haven't thought this through at all. | :16:31. | :16:31. | |
The DUP clearly have jumped on the bandwagon | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
They clearly have ignored the voice of the people of Northern Ireland | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
or the six counties, whatever you want to call it. | :16:40. | :16:41. | |
And the voice of Northern Ireland says, | :16:42. | :16:43. | |
We don't want to join England and Wales. | :16:44. | :16:51. | |
Well, I'm part of the United Kingdom. | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
The name of my party is Democratic Unionist, so | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
This wasn't a Northern Ireland referendum. | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
It was a UK referendum and, by the way, | :17:04. | :17:05. | |
we didn't jump on the bandwagon, we were the only party from Northern | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
Ireland that campaigned for Brexit not just locally, but nationally. | :17:09. | :17:10. | |
I believe passionately that the UK has a bright future outside of | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
And I believe the EU is in serious trouble. | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
You think the EU's in serious trouble? | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
Clearly, we've taken a dip into the darkness here. | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
We don't know what's going to happen after Brexit. | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
Let's go to the older audience tonight as well. | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
I'd just like to call attention to the place here played | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
by Sinn Fein, SDLP and their ideas in Remain. | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
To me, it's pathetic that they tried to use it as a link to | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
try and link to the Irish Republic and unity. | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
And that's really what they're trying to use this as. | :17:50. | :17:51. | |
Brexit's about much more than a united | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
But the problem is, people campaigned | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
for Brexit and those that support it and campaigned | :18:03. | :18:04. | |
They're not able to tell us what it meant. | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
Are you telling me that people were stupid? | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
As simple as that, it doesn't mean that. | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
The Brexit that was voted for is not the Brexit that we are being | :18:16. | :18:23. | |
delivered and that's just a simple fact. | :18:24. | :18:25. | |
The Brexit that was voted for is not what being delivered. | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
With respect, the negotiations haven't even begun. | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
It is true that we do not yet know what the final | :18:34. | :18:41. | |
outcome will be and there's two things that are really important. | :18:42. | :18:43. | |
Number 1 - we need an Executive in Northern Ireland to give us a | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
collective voice to get the best deal. | :18:48. | :18:49. | |
The longer Sinn Fein prevent an Executive... | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
It's two parties, it's not just one party. | :18:53. | :18:53. | |
The longer we will be denied that voice. | :18:54. | :18:55. | |
In the absence of Sinn Fein agreeing to form an Executive, | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
we will have our seats in Westminster and we will be the voice | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
for Northern Ireland unlike Sinn Fein. | :19:05. | :19:06. | |
It's clear to see that the DUP and every other | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
Brexiteer don't really know what's coming out of this. | :19:10. | :19:11. | |
You don't know if there is if there's positives... | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
No, because the negotiations haven't begun. | :19:16. | :19:16. | |
Then you understand people's worries. | :19:17. | :19:17. | |
Why did you leave the EU, why did you vote to leave the EU? | :19:18. | :19:30. | |
I voted to leave the European Union... | :19:31. | :19:31. | |
I voted to leave the European Union because I believe | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
We are subsidising the EU to the tune of billions | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
Northern Ireland's being subsidised by the UK, not by the EU. | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
It's clear we're talking about, you know, whether it's been | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
about being European, British, Irish or Northern Irish. | :19:52. | :19:53. | |
What is really clear, identity is really, really | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
important here and it's true for people of any age. | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
I've been finding out from kids in Kilkeel who feel | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
really, really strongly about their roots. | :20:02. | :20:18. | |
Why is your culture are so important to you? | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
Republicans just think it's Loyalism, and they don't | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
think it's all about having fun, but it is about having fun. | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
Going out with your friends and parading | :20:30. | :20:31. | |
I would say I'm more involved now that I'm older | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
and can do, like, the likes of lambeg drumming. | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
And I'm parading out tonight for Kilkeel Silver. | :20:42. | :20:51. | |
So are you excited about the 12th of July? | :20:52. | :20:53. | |
It's exciting because there is a lot of people watching you and you | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
just get that happy feeling that you're making people enjoy it. | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
I'm just excited about getting up and | :21:05. | :21:06. | |
going out and parading, listening to all of the different bands. | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
My sister does the flag carrying in it | :21:12. | :21:13. | |
and I love seeing her doing it and my dad | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
was in it for, like, in the bands for years. | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
Do you think that your tradition is under threat? | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
Yeah, you would fight the British again if you lost it, because you're | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
losing your tradition, you're losing your parades and Ulster Scots | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
When you see all the politicians fighting, what do you think? | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
Like, there could be people shooting each other. | :21:39. | :21:48. | |
You're saying they're a bunch of children? | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
They're arguing like a bunch of children. | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
I'm just glad that we've settled it more humanely | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
in the sense that we won't, erm, shoot people any more. | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
They're fighting at the minute, aren't they? | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
And the government of Northern Ireland has fallen. | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
I feel like if they don't get this sorted out soon, Northern | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
Ireland's going to go back to the Republic of Ireland. | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
Are you worried about a united Ireland? | :22:16. | :22:17. | |
Well, I would feel sad because our tradition | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
of Ulster Scots and English have been here for hundreds and hundreds | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
of years and if we just lose it just like that, instantly. | :22:27. | :22:35. | |
Calvin, do you feel your British identity is under threat? | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
In our current climate in Northern Ireland, | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
I do believe that my British identity is under threat. | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
From Sinn Fein and the Republican movement. | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
For example, I'm from the Orange tradition and | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
parading is something that Sinn Fein have targeted. | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
And, for me, you know, they're undermining. | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
That's an example of where they're trying to | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
Well, what would you like to come and visit me | :23:08. | :23:18. | |
in my constituency tomorrow and discuss this? | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
My constituency is in an area where there is a very | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
contentious parade and it's led to a lot of division in the area and | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
there still are divisions around Orange parading in South Belfast. | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
I have constituents who vote for me, for | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
example, who have visited the | :23:34. | :23:34. | |
Orange Hall on the Armour Road as part of a lengthy engagement of | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
He's talking about more than a march, isn't he? | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
Yeah, but I think the first step is dialogue. | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
Would you be interested in having that dialogue? | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
I'm happy to go along and find out more | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
Well, I can see what you're trying to do. | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
Because you know rightly I'll say that no, I don't want to | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
Because you're is part of a party that's completely and utterly | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
opposed to my right to march down a road. | :24:07. | :24:08. | |
But I'm not, I actually want to celebrate | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
You're completely and utterly trying to undermine my | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
culture and this is something that your party in particular is | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
How about you come with me to an Orange parade? | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
When I was Lord Mayor, I opened City Hall and allowed the | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
As the Lord Mayor, I was the only one who had | :24:38. | :24:47. | |
the ability to allow the orders to come into and use a room in City | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
There are big issues and where there is an Orange | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
There are ways that orange parades are used to try | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
It's important that we move away from that and I | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
invite you to move away from that with me. | :25:05. | :25:06. | |
And your party is fully intent on making it a divisive issue. | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
I think there's about six parades which are | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
still in dispute and every one of those local residents want to speak | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
I just want to ask a question I wanted to ask earlier | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
Does your party want Brexit to work in Northern Ireland? | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
Because it is an interesting question. | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
If Brexit doesn't work, that's the door open | :25:30. | :25:30. | |
Well, it's interesting because that's the question that... | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
Actually, the way to ensure that Brexit | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
doesn't utterly destroyed the economy here | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
and doesn't destroy the peace process is to make sure | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
that the Irish Government has the final | :25:48. | :25:49. | |
say in what the settlement is for Northern Ireland | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
and if they can get what the Spanish have for Gibraltar | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
which is there can be no settlement in relation | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
to Gibraltar until the Spanish... | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
The Spanish and the British Government agree, then you can get | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
For me, Brexit can't work and Jeffrey won't | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
give us a guarantee that no jobs will be lost. | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
They won't give us a guarantee that none of the Polish | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
people or Lithuanian people, maybe some in this audience, won't be | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
And those are the guarantees that we need. | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
I mean, you're talking about the issue of the Irish Government | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
coming in and taking control of this. | :26:21. | :26:22. | |
Do the Irish people want Northern Ireland as part | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
We have a ?9.6 billion deficit with Westminster. | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
They do not want us because they cannot afford | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
When Germany was reunified, the West Germans were in outrage of the | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
fact that they had their taxes shot up all for some idea that Germany | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
It is better for the people of Northern Ireland, | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
economicallly, to remain within the UK. | :26:42. | :26:42. | |
German unification seems to be going pretty well, Thomas. | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
And you can see, by the way, the table's | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
telling us we've very little time left for this debate. | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
We don't know what's going to happen after Brexit. | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
Maybe a united Ireland would suit us better after Brexit. | :27:02. | :27:03. | |
If Brexit doesn't work, the door is open for us. | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
Brexit is a leap into the dark and... | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
It's actually the world's sixth largest economy, thanks to Brexit. | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
It was the fifth largest and it has dropped back from there. | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
Very quickly, we're running out of time. | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
If I said to you there are far more countries outside the EU than there | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
are inside the EU, and all of the other countries in the world, | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
AOIFE: But they're not coming out of something... | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
They weren't in the European Union to | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
We don't know what is going to happen. | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
We are not sure by whatever, we don't know what is happening. | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
We're out of time, we're out of time. | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
There's a new age of politics in Northern Ireland. | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
If you are 21 or under and if you think you deserve a seat at | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
Right, let's look at our next question. | :28:05. | :28:20. | |
Do we need an Irish Language Act in Northern Ireland? | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
Yes, we deserve one and there's no reason | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
What an Irish Language Act going to give you? | :28:29. | :28:38. | |
No, no, it will give legal defences as well, | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
And I'm looking at you, Jeffrey, because, | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
Well, now they love Irish all of a sudden. | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
But I want to ask you, first I want to ask you a question, | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
why do you oppose of and Irish Language Act? | :29:02. | :29:03. | |
Absolutely not scared of the Irish language. | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
I fully respect that there are many people here in | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
Northern Ireland and elsewhere who value the Irish language and I want | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
to see their rights to speak the Irish language encouraged | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
and supported and, of course, we will look at what that | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
But not just on the Irish language, because, of course, there are many | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
other cultural expressions and, Stephen, you heard from the young | :29:31. | :29:32. | |
That's where I grew up, and there's a thriving Ulster Scots | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
But, you know, they're not getting the level | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
of support that the Irish language is getting. | :29:45. | :29:45. | |
I listened carefully to what Jeffrey was saying about supporting | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
an Irish Language Act yet it was Paul Givan, | :29:52. | :29:53. | |
almost pulled the whole house down single-handedly by taking away | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
a small pot of money for Gaeltalk users. | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
He took that away and put it back in and then found hundreds | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
of thousands of pounds for Orange halls. | :30:05. | :30:17. | |
But, Dolores, in the last five years, and let's | :30:18. | :30:19. | |
be clear about this, ?171 million has been put | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
towards the Irish language in Northern Ireland. | :30:22. | :30:29. | |
What would an Irish language act actually deliver | :30:30. | :30:31. | |
First off, it would honour the commitments under | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
the Good Friday Agreement and St Andrew's. | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
That's the start that honour the commitments about equality. | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
Tell me practically what it would guarantee. | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
Irish speakers would have their rights across all public | :30:53. | :30:54. | |
sector organisations to have their cases heard | :30:55. | :30:55. | |
It's actually much more emotional, I believe, than terms... | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
So if they walked into any public establishment, | :31:00. | :31:01. | |
there would have to be someone behind the counter... | :31:02. | :31:03. | |
The Welsh have an act and the Scottish Parliament | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
has an act and I think what we need to do... | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
They are not guaranteed that there would be answered in Irish, | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
Would the Irish language act guarantee? | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
It's about recognising the rights and the equality of Irish speakers. | :31:18. | :31:19. | |
It would guarantee that the Irish language was protected in law. | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
Well, there are debates around whether people want to have native | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
Irish speakers whose first language is Irish, that they can communicate | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
in the language of their choice, that's what it means. | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
I just wanted to raise a point here that, when we have an NHS | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
that's closing A up at Daisy Hill, an education budget | :31:48. | :31:49. | |
that's slipping by 2.5%, I'd love to learn Irish, | :31:50. | :31:51. | |
it's a lovely language, but, when we have an education system | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
that's collapsing and an NHS that's collapsing, can we afford | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
First of all, no one's ever told me what it's going to cost, | :31:58. | :32:06. | |
so you hear figures ranging from ?2 million to ?20 million. | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
First of all, I have complete respect for the Irish language. | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
It is the language shared by both cultures in Northern Ireland. | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
The motto of the Royal Irish Regiment is in Irish. | :32:15. | :32:16. | |
In fact, it was the Presbyterians that actually protected it | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
Do you think Katie-Rose should have an Irish language act | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
People say that they want an Irish language act, | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
but give us the act and we'll tell you what we want and it. | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
The initial drafts that is all for it had High Commissioner | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
with powers of a High Court judge who could hound people out for not | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
respecting language, various other things, | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
and positive discrimination to highlight 100% of the public | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
sector workers who should be speaking Irish. | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
I don't know what's going to be in this act. | :32:48. | :32:49. | |
I want to be able to go into court and speak Irish, | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
I want to live my life through Irish. | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
The Irish language is of equal importance in the North, in Ireland, | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
Instead of firing back figures and numbers and now this, | :33:09. | :33:18. | |
I want to tell you, as a 17-year-old who has grown up in the Irish | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
language, most of my life is through the Irish language. | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
See the kids, the hundreds of kids, going through Irish medium schools? | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
They don't care about how much an Irish language is going to cost. | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
They just realise that they are being discriminated | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
Irish language rights are human rights. | :33:33. | :33:44. | |
There are a couple of reasons why I would oppose an Irish language act. | :33:45. | :33:54. | |
For me, the Irish language has been something that has been politicised | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
by Sinn Fein. And this act would be used to make those with the British | :33:59. | :34:10. | |
background to feel isolated and foreigners. The Irish language | :34:11. | :34:12. | |
brings with it a culture that everyone can be a part of. The | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
second reason why I do not want an Irish language act is it is not | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
practical. In Irish language act would be firstly for Irish speakers | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
because things like signage and documentation. Let me finish. | :34:28. | :34:42. | |
Signage and documentation. Someone who speaks Irish as a second | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
language or read English first there for the Irish language act is 0.24% | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
of the population. Leffler respond to you. It is much more than | :34:56. | :35:08. | |
signage. If you keep reverting back to the green and orange situation, | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
it has such a unifying quality, it brings people from all different | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
backgrounds together. This is from the latest census. The percentage of | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
people whose main language is Irish, 0.24%. That was the figures from the | :35:22. | :35:39. | |
senseless. In terms of the Irish language at, you supported, so there | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
would be in it? We are talking about that problem that people are | :35:45. | :35:57. | |
dismissing an Irish language act without looking at what it might | :35:58. | :35:59. | |
contain. This is not a blank cheque. There are pressures in terms of | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
public services and finances. One of the things we would like to see | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
Festival is protection for the language and so we do not end up | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
with the farcical situation where we are dependent on the Minister in the | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
department. You either had headed paper or ministers seeking out votes | :36:15. | :36:22. | |
to spray paint and replaced with another. Protection so you have a | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
scheme... Spell out. I am trying. There needs to be a consistent | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
approach in every department as to how it deals with the Irish | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
language, the example within the civil service, or departments would | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
have a consistent policy that would be governed by a scheme. I still do | :36:42. | :36:50. | |
not know what you would guarantee. The commissions themselves should | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
not have the rule that you have described. So would every public | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
document need to be in both languages? No, it wouldn't. Not | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
every public document is subject to FOIA. You have the right to opt out | :37:04. | :37:13. | |
and allow the individual to pay for it. At the moment, it is difficult | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
to come to a position. On the Irish language act, as there has not been | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
an act all though published, but I do not have an objection to it | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
because it makes sense that the language of the island should be | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
given some sort of legislative protection. | :37:31. | :37:41. | |
Saying it is a massive executive financial burden is... What about | :37:42. | :37:52. | |
the hundreds of millions the DUP squandered? Responsible public | :37:53. | :38:02. | |
spending, Geoffrey! Those costs have been capped in relation to the RHI. | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
And they will be capped going forward, Stephen. Definitely? | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
Absolutely. The point I'm making is this, you are suggesting at the | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
moment that nothing is being done for the Irish language. Despite the | :38:21. | :38:30. | |
fact that less than 1% of the population of this country have | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
Irish is the best language, we have Irish language schools... One at a | :38:34. | :38:43. | |
time, please. Let him respond to that point. We may have provisions | :38:44. | :38:53. | |
for Irish speakers at the moment but we also have a First Minister who | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
prepares the Irish speakers as crocodiles. There is clearly a lack | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
of respect. With respect, the First Minister did not describe Irish | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
language speakers as crocodiles, she said Sinn Fein. You have got to let | :39:10. | :39:23. | |
me to read this. Katy Rose was a more eloquent spokesperson. I | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
believe in a society which would welcome an Irish language act. | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
Arlene Foster has made a promise, I will never have an Irish language | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
act. She may not, but there will be an Irish language act. We will make | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
sure that this treasure can be shared with everyone. It will work | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
as it does in Scotland and Wales. Not every government department will | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
be translated into Irish but you will have the right to deal with it. | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
One last point, please. You can come back in the second, I promise. That | :40:04. | :40:11. | |
is a promise. Although some people dismiss Irish as a minority | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
language, it is incredibly important to some people, and there is a new | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
young generation of Irish speakers, let's have a look at them. | :40:24. | :40:35. | |
I am opted to find out what is so important about the Irish language. | :40:36. | :40:43. | |
Why do you deserve it? It is people's writes. People say right so | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
the time, writes about what? It is you human rights to speak whatever | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
language you want. It will be featured in the movie and no one | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
will know what it was going on about. Having a government in | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
Northern Ireland, is that not one potent than you Irish language act? | :41:05. | :41:15. | |
Having a government is also important, but they should be | :41:16. | :41:17. | |
treating us as they treat every other person who speaks English. | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
They found the money for the scoundrel, but yet they cannot put | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
money towards an Irish language act. We want equal | :41:30. | :41:41. | |
rights for everyone, but we will start with us because this is our | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
country. You are angry, aren't you? Who isn't? Legislator Eileen Foster? | :41:46. | :41:47. | |
The statement about the crocodiles made us more angry. She has not | :41:48. | :41:57. | |
given us what we wanted in the first place, the Irish language act. When | :41:58. | :41:59. | |
she said crocodiles, what did that mean to you? That she thinks of us | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
as animals. An Irish language act is very important to us. We just want | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
what they had been promising for ages, equality and Irish language | :42:13. | :42:25. | |
rights. Have you heard enough? People should respect us no matter | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
what our age because we still have human rights. We had more meaningful | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
things to say the most adults! Do you reckon? I think we should give | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
them a round of applause. That is for the kids and the other kids. We | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
mean it when we say we will reach out to young people of all ages and | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
try to bring them in to this BBC programme and once again we | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
appreciate everyone in this studio and everyone watching tonight. Let's | :42:54. | :42:55. | |
empower young people to have a voice. John, when you hear that | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
authentic voice, the 12, 13, are telling them there anything that is | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
called an Irish language act is unacceptable to your party? No, I'm | :43:10. | :43:19. | |
saying it would be nice to know what would be in the act and what we have | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
seen up until now is guesswork. Nothing has been put forward. The | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
idea there would be a High Commissioner that would conduct | :43:26. | :43:35. | |
which an stop... The Commissioner Rob... We need to take decisions. | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
And the problem is we are rubbish at taking decisions. There are all | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
sorts of options. The Commissioner is there to give advice and guidance | :43:45. | :43:51. | |
to help them engage in people who want to speak and Irish, but what | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
Calvert said is important. Here he sees this as an attack on culture, | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
but shouldn't be. In Belfast, where they originally opened that orange | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
for, many members spoken Irish. It was part of parcel of a shared | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
culture. We should embrace and celebrate it. Beside the place where | :44:14. | :44:26. | |
I live, there is an Orange Hall. The Irish language was there before. We | :44:27. | :44:38. | |
are allowing them to embrace it. I do not see what the problem is. The | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
foundations of the Irish language was promised in the Good Friday | :44:42. | :44:42. | |
Agreement but we do not have that. The Department of Finance | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
figures, 3.5 million. If Jonathan speaks | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
to his negotiators... No, no, across all Government, | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
not one department. Well, the Department | :44:56. | :44:57. | |
of Finance figures are In Scotland, it cost 5 million | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
and 3 million of that goes That includes Government departments | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
and we believe that local Government In Scotland, much of | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
the money goes towards Are you telling that young | :45:13. | :45:22. | |
man his figures are wrong? Well, you don't | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
understand the figures. Do you want to | :45:26. | :45:26. | |
patronise him any more? Do you want to | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
respond to that yourself? There is a politician | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
sitting there you don't understand. You're saying it's only | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
going to cost 2.5 million? I mean, the Gael League | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
came out and said that over the next five years, it | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
was going to cost 19 million and I, personally, think that | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
that underestimating it. Well, you should join | :45:46. | :45:46. | |
the talks because the UUP and DUP have been at the talks and the | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
figures at the talks and the most cogent figure is the nationwide | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
organisation which has presented its They say it will cost | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
2.5 million a year. So are you making | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
a commitment on behalf of Sinn Fein tonight that | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
you don't want any funding Because what I actually | :46:04. | :46:05. | |
said was that the Department of Finance | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
estimate was 3.5 million. So why would you want more than that | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
if you're standing by the figure and telling | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
him he's wrong? Well, he's wrong in his | :46:19. | :46:19. | |
estimate of Scotland. What I am saying is | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
that the estimate that I think is an accurate estimate is no | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
more than 3.5 million All right, listen, loads of people | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
in the audience tonight... No, let's go into the younger | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
audience tonight again. And we'll go to | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
the young lady in the We live in a culture | :46:34. | :46:35. | |
of fear and I'm putting it to all of you that there is no | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
big scary monster against your Irish language in the same way | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
there is no big scary monster against your British | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
identity. So, why do you need to pack money | :46:49. | :46:49. | |
into your Irish Language Act or pack money into your parades | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
instead of investing it in more an Irish Language Act, | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
I've made that very clear. You can't compare an Irish Language | :46:56. | :47:04. | |
Act to the parades, I'm sorry. Stay with this, stay | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
with the young lady here. Where is the parading organisations | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
looking for funding? Well, they've had | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
money all those years. I'm not putting the Irish | :47:16. | :47:16. | |
language and parades on the same level, I'm just saying | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
they're both about identity and they both seem to be all our people and | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
all our Government care about when they should care about far | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
more important things. We were promised | :47:28. | :47:29. | |
an Irish Language Act. I want to know where | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
the money has went for that. I want to know why our | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
culture is being used as a weapon by all parties, | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
not just green and orange. It's being used as a weapon | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
and it's being undermined. Dolores Kelly, is there not better | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
things in Northern Ireland in terms of priority to spend | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
whatever money we've got? If we think about the health | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
service, if we think about the education of our kids | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
and roads, do we really And you're talking about | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
the Irish Language Act That doesn't get you | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
out of the question. I'm not getting out | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
of the question, Stephen. I actually do believe it's important | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
for Northern Ireland to move forward, to actually recognise | :48:12. | :48:13. | |
our shared history and future. Do you agree with the | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
3.5 million figure? You see, Stephen, we cannot set | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
a figure on it because the Irish Language Act is part | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
of the talks and part of the talks will actually hopefully come | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
to an agreement about what | :48:32. | :48:33. | |
an Irish Language Act is. The talks have been | :48:34. | :48:34. | |
going on for ages. To just come back on what you said | :48:35. | :48:36. | |
about the division. See here especially, | :48:37. | :48:46. | |
as you all are aware, Irish language speakers | :48:47. | :48:48. | |
are entitled to health care and we do use schools and we do | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
use education, like. So the Irish language is away | :48:56. | :48:57. | |
way of uniting people. Once we get past that, | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
then we can start to move forward. I know Jeffrey earlier | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
was saying that due to The reason we have no Government is | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
because of the absence of respect. The arguments that | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
we're getting here about the money is a false argument | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
because we don't have the content agreed so you can't budget | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
until you have the content agreed. And the second thing | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
is, in City Hall last week, there was an agreement made | :49:31. | :49:32. | |
that there would be an Irish It's going to cost | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
a maximum of ?18,000. The other half was going to be paid | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
by Foras na Gaeilge. There was going to be money | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
invested in the Ulster Scots language and there was going to be | :49:42. | :49:43. | |
money given to newcomer languages... Unionists voted | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
against it, all of them. It was ?18,000 maximum spend | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
in a council with a huge budget. They voted against it | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
not because of money, but because they will not allow | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
this to move forward. We're great at putting forward | :50:00. | :50:01. | |
the problems, The Irish Language Act | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
is a solution, Calvin! Why not try to benefit | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
as many people in society? Why not include things | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
like Ulster Scots, Irish and parading so that we open it up | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
to as many people as possible? We can deal with those | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
things, Calvin. You talk about respect | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
and equality... Why do they have a Gaelic | :50:30. | :50:31. | |
language act in Scotland? Let's see where you want to see | :50:32. | :50:33. | |
Ulster Scots and parading. We're out of time. | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
We're out of time. If you are 21 or under | :50:37. | :50:49. | |
and want to have the biggest voice in | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
the country, apply now. Right, let's have a look | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
at our last question tonight. Does Northern Ireland need | :51:00. | :51:08. | |
to stop living in the past? Listen, the amount of money that | :51:09. | :51:16. | |
goes into investigations We can't move forward | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
with our future until we look at the past | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
and I think it's important. What you see this argument, | :51:26. | :51:27. | |
particularly coming from a more traditional side, | :51:28. | :51:29. | |
is that they say there is some kind When there are laws such | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
as their were during Bloody Sunday, we have | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
to investigate them. The Saville Inquiry | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
was a justified spending of money to prove that there | :51:38. | :51:39. | |
was misconduct on the part of the British Army and collusion | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
within the British Government and it's right | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
that we look back at the past because unless we fix and look | :51:45. | :51:46. | |
at where the blame lies in the past, Thomas, I absolutely | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
agree with you that you cannot dispense | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
with justice and we have to look at this | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
over a time period and try and then, after we've done that, | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
to move Northern Ireland forward. But what I would say | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
to you is this - there are over 3000 unsolved killings | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
in Northern Ireland. At the moment, it is undeniable | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
that the focus is on a small number of those killings, | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
mainly by the state. Despite the fact that | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
the state were responsible for less than 10% of all deaths | :52:18. | :52:19. | |
during the Troubles. The problem I have, | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Thomas, is that I have constituents, The problem I have, | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
people who lost loved ones, who have been waiting | :52:27. | :52:27. | |
for decades. Decades for justice, for someone | :52:28. | :52:29. | |
to investigate the murder of their loved one and there | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
But why did the DUP block 56 cases going to | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
be investigated that would have got justice... | :52:41. | :52:42. | |
You did last year. You did last year. | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
The DUP, as I understand it, at the Executive blocked the | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
So how is that going to get justice for the people? | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
And those people have been waiting 45 years and more for | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
Because, Aoife, I do not believe there should be a | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
And therefore, I'm not prepared to see a | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
small number of cases given priority and priority funding whilst | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
thousands of families are waiting for the opportunity. | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
But we're going to have to start somewhere to move | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
We're to start somewhere to move on together in a society. | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
We can't have this orange and green all the time. | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
Well, how about starting with the IRA and what they did, | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
Well, what about the British Government collusion as well? | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
They murdered more people than anybody else. | :53:36. | :53:37. | |
We have to accept both sides did have their runs. | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
There is an old saying, an old proverb, that who | :53:42. | :53:49. | |
ever forget the past is blind in one eye. | :53:50. | :53:51. | |
Whoever focuses on it totally is blind in both and I think that's | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
totally prevalent when it comes to Northern Ireland. | :53:55. | :53:56. | |
The legacy issues are for everyone to see. | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
We have the worst mental health in the entirety | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
of the British Isles because of the issues that we have. | :54:03. | :54:04. | |
We have victims, tens of thousands of | :54:05. | :54:06. | |
victims, from the Troubles and we can't forget about that. | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
But, John, are we giving victims false hope because | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
there's very little chance of prosecutions | :54:13. | :54:13. | |
because the evidence is gone. | :54:14. | :54:14. | |
We see time and time again that evidence can come to light. | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
If victims want hope, there is an opportunity. | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
Why close all the I do think what is frustrating, as Jeffrey | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
highlighted, less than 10% of all the killings in the Troubles were | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
committed by state forces, yet they account for 70% of all of the | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
It feels at times but there is a victim... | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
Do you really think, Dolores, that everybody's | :54:36. | :54:37. | |
I mean, I see too many vested interests around the table | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
from former paramilitaries and from the British Government in terms of | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
I don't think the process is doomed, but I do believe | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
that commitments were made to victims and survivors back in 1998, | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
especially when prisoners were released and, in fact, | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
that anybody who would be subsequently prosecuted | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
would only serve a maximum of two years. | :55:04. | :55:05. | |
I do think many victims, and I speak to many of the individuals | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
and organisations recognise that they're not likely to get justice, | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
And there is a wailing cry for the truth | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
But you don't think they'll get the truth. | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
Well, I don't think they'll get the whole | :55:19. | :55:20. | |
I do wonder whether they'll get the name | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
of the person who pulled the trigger or the name of the people... | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
You know, I think they'll get some truth | :55:28. | :55:28. | |
around who was responsible and the organisation... | :55:29. | :55:30. | |
What's the point of getting the information if its not | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
It is important, because the truth... | :55:34. | :55:35. | |
You just said you don't think we'll get the truth. | :55:36. | :55:37. | |
Well, you asked me a straightforward question, | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
I'm asking you a straightforward follow-up question! | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
I'm telling you, there's a lot of vested interests. | :55:44. | :55:45. | |
We've already seen the defence committee at Westminster | :55:46. | :55:47. | |
In response to what Jeffrey was saying, I think it is of vital | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
importance that we get to the truth of, you know, | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
all of the killings, but especially those committed by | :55:58. | :55:59. | |
the state because I think there's a principle | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
at stake for the health of our democracy | :56:03. | :56:04. | |
that we need to know exactly what the state did in terms | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
of its murders, be they in incidents like Bloody Sunday or or | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
in terms of their collaboration with terrorist organisations. | :56:15. | :56:16. | |
Naomi, our state killings more important to be | :56:17. | :56:17. | |
I think that they have to be investigated on | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
exactly the same basis and help to the same | :56:22. | :56:23. | |
I think we expect more from the state than | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
we expect from paramilitaries who, obviously, set out to break the law | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
We expect those who are there to enforce the law to hold themselves | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
The important thing about this, Stephen, is there | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
is a difference between dealing with the past and is living in the past | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
and what we have to decide as a society is when we are going | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
to deal with the past in a way that allows us | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
to live in the present and look to the future. | :56:47. | :56:48. | |
If we don't do it now, we are offering victims false hope. | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
OK, let me go to our older audience this evening. | :56:54. | :56:55. | |
Let's get the lights up on the older audience here and we'll see... | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
My name is Sean, my father was murdered along with ten other | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
Jeffrey has based a campaign for ex-feds to be given an | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
immunity, an amnesty for breaking the law. | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
As Jeffrey know, he was an ex-serviceman himself, | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
who looked down the barrel of a gun, you make a decision yourself. | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
There is no way of saying that it was a moment of madness... | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
My question is why would you want somebody who wears a uniform | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
to get amnesty but you still call for other people who were | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
involved in the Troubles to be jailed? | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
Well, we're not calling for an amnesty. | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
What we have said is that in those cases | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
where investigations have taken place previously and where people | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
have been told they have no charge to answer | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
to that there should be a statute of limitations | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
and this is something that is prevalent | :58:05. | :58:05. | |
Would you set a time limit after which it | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
I'd just like to say, they're all going on about going for the | :58:11. | :58:20. | |
At the end of the day, in this country, the IRA | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
They are actually immune from prosecution. | :58:25. | :58:33. | |
See the HET, the majority of it is Loyalist that | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
There you go again, bringing back the green and orange. | :58:38. | :58:47. | |
Regardless of who you think started the war, | :58:48. | :58:48. | |
justice must be served for all cases. | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
Hold on a minute, hold on a minute, there is someone at this top | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
Give her the courtesy of listening to her. | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
With respect, I know I'm young and I didn't live through the | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
Troubles so I'll give back to the older people, | :59:02. | :59:03. | |
But regardless of who started the war or whatever, in | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
OTRs. In any case... | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
Why are the OTRs not being brought to justice? | :59:14. | :59:25. | |
I just think that we need to accept as society | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
that there was a fragile past, but we are going to have to | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
move on together at some point because we're going to be stuck in | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
this position for God knows how many years now | :59:37. | :59:38. | |
and we're going to have to work together. | :59:39. | :59:40. | |
Just don't go for one part of society. | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
No, I emphasised that both parts of society need to move | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
I know the question was relating to legacy, but there | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
are people here tonight is living in the past. | :59:53. | :59:54. | |
And I want to say, with the maximum of respect, with the maximum of | :59:55. | :00:02. | |
respect, that living in the past isn't going to cut it any more. | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
Whether it's discrimination against people at this table because they | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
speak Irish or discrimination against gays who want to get | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
married, discrimination against ethnic minorities, | :00:13. | :00:13. | |
or it's trying... CHEERING | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
Or it's trying to turn back the clock. | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
Because I lived through that horror as well. | :00:21. | :00:22. | |
I lived through it and I saw people dead in my street. | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
I have to say, I mean, I've said it before, | :00:26. | :00:38. | |
Victims deserve justice if it's available. | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
There needs to be some form of truth to come out. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
But it seems too often that the focus is on state forces. | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
I am all for, if crimes were committed, then | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
they should be looked into, but the fact that the focus | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
Young man on the side of the table wants to speak. | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
Well, Stephen, I live in a community that has seen | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
many people's lives absolutely destroyed by terrorism. | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
And I interact with people on a regular basis | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
whose families have been torn apart. | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
So, for me, I think that we are past persecution. | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
I think the Good Friday agreement has completely | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
Imagine being the family member of a victim just | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
thinking they're not going to get justice. | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
Yeah, and I think it is horrendous and terrible, but I think | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
for us to start on the process of moving forward and bringing a | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
conclusion to the past, we need an apology. | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
From people that engaged in criminality and terrorism | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
You know, you're talking about respect for | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
ethnic minorities and respect for people | :01:52. | :01:52. | |
from the gay community and whatnot. | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
What about the respect for the victims of people... | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
Darkley Gospel Hall, where people worshipped, | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
met together to worship God, and were slaughtered because of it. | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
So, are you willing to show respect to those people? | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
You're talking to me, so let me answer. | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
We need respect for all those victims who died. | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
When we show respect, Calvin, when we show | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
respect, John's mother was shot by a British soldier. | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
So we have to show respect to him as well. | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
And our duty to all those that died is to create a piece which is | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
And let's see Sinn Fein take the lead on that | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
by apologising for what the IRA did and the campaign of 30 years of | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
ethnic cleansing and terrorising one community in Northern Ireland. | :02:49. | :02:50. | |
Stephen, the difficulty is that we are in danger of using | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
the past and other people's hurt as weapons in an argument | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
And I think that's a very dangerous thing to do. | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
I have sat in rooms with people who have | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
lost family members and their seeking out of the truth and | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
everything else has replaced, as a campaign, the last | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
They are still grieving for that loss today and we cannot be | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
dismissive of that is, but we also shouldn't | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
use their pain to try and | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
inflict political wounds on each other. | :03:26. | :03:26. | |
OK, so, John Stewart, what is the solution? | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
Well, first of all, one of the most frustrating things | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
that I find is for the victims over 20 or 30 years even waiting | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
I find it extremely frustrating that we cannot | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
yet agree on the definition of victim. | :03:39. | :03:39. | |
It is very clear to me, Stephen, and to everyone else that a | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
victim is someone who has suffered as a result | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
And if they were an innocent victim, they should be | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
I believe if you walked out with the intention of causing | :03:49. | :03:57. | |
devastation and murder and as a result... | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
It was a complex situation, was it not? | :04:00. | :04:01. | |
The people who suffered, the people who | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
are living with debilitating injuries. | :04:08. | :04:08. | |
One of the most compelling arguments came from Alan McBride, | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
whose wife died in the Shank Hill bombing. | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
And he said, the people who planted that bomb for him were not | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
But he said their family hurt like his family. | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
And we need to bear in mind that the relatives | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
are not responsible for the actions of those who died. | :04:29. | :04:30. | |
Aoife, do you think that those families of paramilitaries also | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
I think families on both sides, we're going to have to accept the | :04:35. | :04:46. | |
past. It happened. But we have to move on at some point together and | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
yes, the families need justice but it is not just the paramilitaries' | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
families, is the families that were hurt by things like Bloody Sunday. | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
We are going to have to accept and be able to understand that there | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
were grievances, but we are going to have to move on. How galling would | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
it be for some people who tried to abide by the war and they now in | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
2017 C paramilitaries and their families potentially getting support | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
from the state's how galling would that be for law-abiding citizens? I | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
think that all cases, paramilitary are not, should be looked into. | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
Should be given focus. Another thing, a la people are saying, there | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
was a word here, and people have different viewpoints at the table. | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
You can't just put it down to one. I think we're seeing certain people | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
undergo a campaign of a rewriting programme in Northern Ireland where | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
we equate terrorism to security forces. Now, for me, there is a key | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
difference. Those... Can I finish despite? Those that were engaged in | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
paramilitaries, they were intent on destroying the fabric of Northern | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
Ireland whereas the security forces stepped between, stepped on place | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
between those in Northern Ireland, civilians in Northern Ireland to | :06:12. | :06:19. | |
protect our and societies. Katie-Rose, Katie-Rose... No, | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
Katie-Rose go. People will good against what you're saying. It's not | :06:25. | :06:33. | |
about views,... But you think that's just should be served in those | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
cases? It's not an orange and green matter. There were specific cases, | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
OK, I'm not saying that there wasn't wrongdoing by maybe specific members | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
of the Armed Forces... Goes by very quickly, Thomas. When David Cameron | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
stepped forward as a result of the inquiry and apologise for the | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
actions of the British Army, that was a huge moment for Northern | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
Ireland and brought our community together and that was a crucial | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
thing. Investigations both sides bring our community together. | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Dolores. I think we need to deal with the past in order to build | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
reconciliation and needs to be honesty around it and there are | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
people actively engaged in rewriting the past, but there are many | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
families still waiting on truth and justice and I am sorry, but that it | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
forces have two be held to a higher standard. Very quickly, John. I get | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
the feeling that for some people, it would be easier if people just | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
disappeared over the years and this would just drag on until there was | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
no one left to remember the past and that is a sad state and alluring. | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
Geoffrey. We need to deal with these issues, but I agree with Aoife. We | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
need to reach a point where we think about the future and the future is | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
you guys and I think I speak for all of us on the side of the table, we | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
have been highly impressed by your contributions night. It warms my | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
heart, Stephen, that we have young people, articulate, knowledgeable, | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
capable and will be the next generation of leaders in this | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
country. We can take this country so far, our generation but it is your | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
future. On our promise is that we are going to try and reach out to | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
you wherever you are in Northern Ireland. If you want to be at the | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
top table, contact us. Thank you very much to everyone in the studio | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
's night, the politicians and youth here at The Top Table. Well, there | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
will be plenty more discussion in the weeks ahead of next month's | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
General election. You can find details of the candidates running on | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
BBC website. We are out of time, but what has happened here tonight | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
really shows there is real passion for politician amongst all ages. | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
That is rejoining us, good night. -- thank you for joining us. | :08:53. | :09:13. | |
We're really in it up to here this week. | :09:14. | :09:16. |