Barbara Dickson Fern Britton Meets...


Barbara Dickson

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This week, my Advent series continues here in Edinburgh.

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My guest is someone best known for a string of hits

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in the '70s and '80s...

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Ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Dickson.

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# January February Don't you come around. #

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-# Wasn't it good?

-Oh, so good?

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# Wasn't he fine... #

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..and, in particular, one song and video which,

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according to the Guinness Book of Records,

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is still the biggest-selling UK chart single by a female duo.

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But there is so much more to Barbara Dickson than just the '80s,

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big hair and thick shoulder pads.

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In the '60s, she came here to Edinburgh,

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and this is where her career really started to take shape.

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By day, she was a civil servant.

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At night, she was making a name for herself in the folk clubs.

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Barbara's career was going from strength to strength.

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She was selling thousands of records. She was a pop star.

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And then her friend Willy Russell offered her a part

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in his brand-new musical Blood Brothers.

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She was a sensation, an ultimate star.

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# Tell me it's not true... #

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Having babies is like clockwork to me.

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I'm back on my feet and working the next day, you know?

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If I have this one at the weekend,

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I won't even need to take Monday off.

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But a sudden attack of stage fright and exhaustion

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meant she had to take a break.

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I think she just went...

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..bang, this is too much.

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I was thinking,

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I don't think I can do this any more, I'm too tired.

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Barbara was also concerned about what fame might do to her...

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I was afraid of losing my soul, losing my identity.

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..but with her strength of character and help of family and friends,

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Barbara overcame those fears.

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She went on to win two Olivier Awards

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for her work on stage...

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-The winner of Actress of the Year...

-Barbara Dickson.

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..and she had major roles in popular TV dramas

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Band Of Gold and Taggart.

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# This is my fight... #

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On this second Sunday in Advent,

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the themes of hope and joy shine through in her story.

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Throughout it all, Barbara's faith has carried her.

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God looks after me.

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I just put my hand in this great big hand.

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This is my hand, it goes into a great big hand

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and He just says, "You're OK."

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Barbara has been performing for virtually 50 years non-stop,

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and she's showing no signs of wanting to stop now.

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So I want to find out what drives her on.

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# The early light is breaking

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# The morning sun is waiting in the sky. #

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Barbara Dickson's road to fame began just after the Second World War

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in Dunfermline, in Fife.

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The daughter of a Scottish policemen and a Liverpudlian telephonist,

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she grew up in what was then a modern-day terrace.

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When I was very, very small, we lived with my granny in Dunfermline,

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in a place called Chalmers Street.

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And there was a big back garden there.

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I remember my granny used to have... There were vegetables there.

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I don't think she dug the vegetables,

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but there was a big back garden, and the postman....

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This is... I think this is probably apocryphal, but anyway,

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they say that he was coming up with mail

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to give to my granny and he heard the singing

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and he realised that it was

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the baby in the pram.

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I would imagine it's quite unusual for a baby,

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sitting up in the pram, to be singing, but I was.

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And when you were very young as well,

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I think Doris Day was big for you?

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Well, the thing that I loved about Doris Day was that she...

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It was Calamity Jane, it was the character of Calamity Jane.

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Calamity Jane!

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Because she was a girl being really, really tough...

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Are you calling me a liar?

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..who could do all that stuff that boys do without any kind of problem

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and she could shoot and she could ride on the Deadwood Stage

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-and stuff like that.

-So you were a tomboy?

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Yes, very much so.

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I wanted to be Sir Lancelot when I was four.

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-Fantastic.

-Yes, it's great.

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How were your family? Were they churchgoers?

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Was there much churchgoing and religion in the house?

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My mother had gone to church

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very regularly in Liverpool.

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She had been christened in the Church of England,

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but hadn't attended church as a young person,

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but was definitely C of E,

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and she heard Donald Soper speak.

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I believe in God, in God's province, in God's purpose,

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as revealed in Jesus Christ.

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Therefore, I believe that peace and goodwill and justice

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and the family life are available.

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He was a famous Methodist.

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So, she went to the Methodist Hall in Liverpool

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and heard Donald Soper and it sort of transformed her life,

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and so henceforth, she called herself a Methodist.

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May I professionally tell you that at any moment

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the thunderbolt may strike.

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-You don't look too healthy.

-LAUGHTER

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My father, who was raised in the Church of Scotland,

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and they'd been married in the Church of Scotland,

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he didn't attend the Church of Scotland,

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but the minister would come round like the child catcher

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and gather up children to go to Sunday school.

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And so I, like all the other children in the neighbourhood,

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would be sitting, having Bible stories and instruction.

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"And they planned to make a special party to welcome him."

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I can't remember what they taught us,

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but I think we just talked about the parables and Jesus and his life.

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I wonder who would be there.

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-ALL:

-Mary and Martha.

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Tell me about your parents, their characters

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and, as parents, what were they like?

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Well, they were very nice parents, very kind and loving.

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My mother was a feisty Liverpudlian

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who'd come from a very poor background.

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She was actually a very talented person, she was very funny,

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like a lot of Liverpudlians are, very funny,

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very observational in her humour,

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but had the most lovely singing voice.

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My father.... I mean, he was the second youngest of a big family.

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He was very shy,

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he was very sweet, very quiet,

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but I think didn't have a lot of confidence.

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Very much a man of that generation,

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didn't really talk about how he felt or anything,

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but was loving and kind to me and my brother.

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The arrival of her baby brother provoked a less generous reaction

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in the young Barbara.

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When my brother was born, I was very disappointed,

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because I didn't really...

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I remember being three and a half and not really wanting competition,

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and not wanting this little baby

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who had come into the house.

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Barbara's mum decided to send her to nursery school,

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but Barbara's time there was brief.

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I hated it.

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Didn't want to join in, was very...

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SHE LAUGHS

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..disruptive.

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Just completely subverted the whole class.

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And also, they said,

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"We don't know what's wrong with her, Mrs Dickson.

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"When we sing the morning hymn, she puts her fingers in her ears."

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THEY LAUGH

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Oh, dear, so we've virtually expelled or just taken away?

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I think I was expelled.

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And then you ran away, at one stage.

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-I ran away when I was four.

-Oh, yes.

-Yes, I ran away.

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I'd had enough of them and decided I was going to go,

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with my doll's pram, which I had stuffed full

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of all my possessions.

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And away I went, along the road.

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And I stopped to ask a woman for a drink of water

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and she took me to the police station.

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SHE LAUGHS

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She took me to the police station, which was very nearby and said,

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"I've got this child here!"

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My mother was furious.

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You know, she was humiliated, as well,

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because her child had run away.

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Even then, that was considered not the thing to do.

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And I think it was all to do with my brother being born.

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Having said that, there's only me and my brother

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and I love my brother.

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My husband said he is the only man in my life

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who gets away with anything.

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If he murdered somebody, I would say,

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"Well, they must have deserved it." FERN LAUGHS

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"Yes, they must have provoked him."

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After her early brush with the law, Barbara knuckled down,

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but a turning point came when, after failing her 11 plus,

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she didn't get into the school of her dreams.

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I didn't go to the high school,

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which is where I thought I was going

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and it was very traumatic for me.

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There was a massive kind of

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mood of disappointment.

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I just remember thinking, this is disastrous.

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And I've never really got over that.

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So I think the disappointment of failing my 11 plus

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made me determined

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to kind of do something.

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Although not at the school of her choice,

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a young music teacher named Sandy Saddler

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would soon inspire her.

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He used to give us music to sing, classical music

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and proper choir music when we were singing in the choir.

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But he would also encourage kind of free expression in music.

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So he, I know, liked folk music,

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because if you think about 1960,

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it was the time when people like The Kingston Trio

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were emerging in America.

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Like, there would be a lot of white college people

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singing songs about black people's culture in the South.

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You know, there was that kind of thing.

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It wasn't considered to be weird then.

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# But I know he's just a Louisiana boy

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# Who died with a hammer in his hand Lord, no

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# Who died with a hammer in his hand... #

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So we kind of tapped into that,

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because we learned a lot of songs via these sources.

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Pete Seeger was around very much at that time as well.

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But Sandy Saddler knew these artists

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and he liked that music,

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so he would play it to us.

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I also, around the same time, discovered The Everly Brothers.

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# There goes my baby

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# With someone new

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# She sure looks happy

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# I sure am blue... #

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The Everly Brothers made an album called Songs Our Daddy Taught Us,

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and so they have those songs,

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and they were also easy to play on the guitar,

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so this is when I first started to play the guitar.

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What are we talking, '61, '62?

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-Yeah, yeah.

-The rock and roll scene was coming, The Beatles.

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-Yeah, yeah.

-And you saw The Beatles.

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I did see The Beatles in Kirkcaldy.

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Everybody was screaming, so we never heard a word of what they played.

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It must've been so grim for them,

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because nobody...

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Nobody was listening to them.

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And yet, they were good, they were really good.

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I remember seeing them and thinking,

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"This is just amazing."

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Music was a driving force throughout Barbara's school years,

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and she found safety in numbers in the school choir

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until an opportunity presented itself at a local folk club.

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My school friends who were with me volunteered me to sing

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when the man said, "Would anybody like to sing?"

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Which is what they did.

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And so that was the beginning of my career, really.

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That night, out of school, was it,

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because the man who ran the folk club said,

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"I think that was really nice.

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"I'd like you to do that again."

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# For the world is slowly dying... #

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And Barbara continue to do it again and again,

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constantly impressing those that she worked with.

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Barbara's voice is...

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I know it's a cliche, but it's full of integrity, it truly is.

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You know, there is a genuine British soul there,

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it is a British soul.

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Her voice comes out of these islands.

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It's not from Brooklyn, it's not from New Orleans,

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it's from these islands and it's indescribable.

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The most important thing about Barbara's voice is that

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it couldn't be anyone else. It's completely recognisable.

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It has a kind of...

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interesting mix of strength,

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enormous strength, but also a kind of vulnerable quality to it as well,

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which is unusual.

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There is a plaintive melancholia about

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Barbara's voice that's strangely,

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paradoxically, joyous and uplifting.

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She nails every single note she goes for.

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# I don't expect my love affairs

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# To last for long... #

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She's never trying to demonstrate the song,

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she's always - I think this comes from the kind of folk tradition -

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she is the servant of the songs.

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# Being used to trouble

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# I anticipate it

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# But all the same, I hate it

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# Wouldn't you?

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# So what happens now? #

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But back in the late '60s, despite gigging more regularly,

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a career in music seemed to be a pipe dream.

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I was from Dunfermline and people from Dunfermline

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didn't become pop stars, do you know what I mean?

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They didn't become film stars.

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You got a job and you got married and you settled down.

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So that was kind of my future. I saw that for myself.

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I didn't think for a minute that I would ever be sitting,

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at my age, talking to you about my life thus far.

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So, I left school with three O-levels

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and I went into the civil service

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cos if you didn't have many qualifications

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you could get a job in the civil service.

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But really my ambition was to try and earn a living as a musician.

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That's all I ever wanted to do.

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And finally, I was able to do that.

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Because you arrived in Edinburgh and there was a big scene going on here.

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Oh, yeah, it was amazing.

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Barbara made the move to Edinburgh, and in particular here,

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to the famous Sandy Bell's pub.

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She was immersed in a buzzing folk scene

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and, creatively, she felt right at home.

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There was a kind of big crowd of people

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and we all hung out together.

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We all wore polo-neck jumpers and duffle coats,

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and you could only tell the boys from the girls cos the boys had beards.

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The ones without the beards were girls.

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The hair was the same,

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the clothes were the same and the beard was usually on the boy.

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And I also fell in love, big, big time, around that time as well,

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-for the first time.

-Yes.

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And my sweetheart was in Edinburgh,

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came from Edinburgh, and was at art college.

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I was very committed for a long, long time.

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It took me a long time to get over him.

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He dumped me.

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I felt extremely let down

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and I was totally broken-hearted.

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# It's the end of the world

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# Cos you don't love me

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# Any more. #

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I would say to myself, "I've got to try and do something about this.

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"I've got to try and pick myself up and go on

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"and turn this around."

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# Don't they know

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# It's the end of the world

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# It ended when I lost

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# Your love. #

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Did you find that your faith,

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-perhaps quiet as it was, from Sunday school, etc...

-Yeah, yeah.

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..did that come into play during that time?

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It most definitely did, because when I was here aged 17,

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I used to buy candles and I used to light them in my flat,

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and I would use them as a sort of aid

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to some kind of meditation.

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To transport myself away from what I thought was

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kind of the misery of my personal life.

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As a heartbroken woman,

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or a woman who was going nowhere in her personal life.

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But I remember being very young, lighting those candles,

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sitting there and going, "Right, that is a light in the darkness.

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"It's a flickering light, it shows me that I'm alive.

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"That candle is lit, there is oxygen in this room,

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"we can do something about this."

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But I didn't quite understand it then, but it's a good image.

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It is a good image, and the guidance that it's sort of suggesting...

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Did you feel perhaps that you might have been guided at that time?

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No. I've never felt guided,

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I've just felt that God looks after me...

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..and that when I go wrong, because I am His child,

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I just put my hand in this great big hand,

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this is my hand, it goes into a great big hand

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and He just says, "You're OK."

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He just lets me fall flat on my face to make me tougher

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and then when I get up and say, "What's this about?"

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That's what that... And that's OK, that's OK.

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In the early '70s, Barbara collaborated with someone

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who would have a big influence on her life...

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..Liverpool playwright Willy Russell.

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He was writing a Beatles-inspired play titled

0:19:500:19:53

John, Paul, George, Ringo... And Bert,

0:19:530:19:56

and wanted a female singer in the show.

0:19:560:19:59

Willy's idea was to write a show about The Beatles

0:20:030:20:07

seen through the eyes of a person who did not become successful.

0:20:070:20:12

He was like Everyman.

0:20:120:20:14

And I went there and I sang The Beatles songs on the stage.

0:20:140:20:19

Barbara was on stage in this dark theatre

0:20:190:20:23

with her back to the auditorium,

0:20:230:20:25

and playing away on this harmonium, doing some Beatles songs,

0:20:250:20:30

and the company started to straggle into the auditorium,

0:20:300:20:34

and I turned around, and they were like...

0:20:340:20:36

..just, you know, stunned at what they were hearing.

0:20:370:20:40

So it was a shoo-in from then on.

0:20:400:20:42

And people are going, "Who is this woman?"

0:20:440:20:46

And I would say,

0:20:470:20:50

"Well, I'm a folk performer."

0:20:500:20:53

"Well, how come we've never heard of you?"

0:20:530:20:55

"Because I'm not in show business.

0:20:550:20:57

"I'm a folk singer.

0:20:570:20:59

"We don't have that kind of thing where I come from."

0:20:590:21:02

But not only that, to bring a show from the Liverpool Everyman,

0:21:020:21:06

a very good working theatre, but to open it in the West End,

0:21:060:21:10

on Shaftesbury Avenue, it's an incredible thing.

0:21:100:21:13

Your heart must have been bursting with excitement.

0:21:130:21:16

It was fantastic, yeah,

0:21:160:21:18

we had people like Peter Sellers and Rod Stewart in the audience

0:21:180:21:21

on the first night and all sorts of people came.

0:21:210:21:24

# Why do you sing it your way

0:21:260:21:29

# At the risk of knowing that our love... #

0:21:290:21:32

And when Barbara was first in the West End,

0:21:320:21:34

I remember people saying,

0:21:340:21:37

"Who's that remarkable girl?

0:21:370:21:39

"You can't see her. Her hair is falling all over her face."

0:21:390:21:42

You know? There was a lot of that kind of thing.

0:21:420:21:44

"We've got to do something about that. And the glasses will have to go."

0:21:440:21:48

And all that kind of stuff.

0:21:480:21:50

# Think of what I'm saying... #

0:21:500:21:52

My father and mother came to Liverpool for the opening

0:21:520:21:55

and they came to London as well.

0:21:550:21:57

Did they mind the bad language, and were you concerned about that?

0:21:570:22:01

No, well, I... Yeah, I spoke to my dad and I said,

0:22:010:22:04

"you know there's the F-word in this?"

0:22:040:22:07

And my dad said...

0:22:070:22:09

He just looked at me and he kind of raised his eyes and he said,

0:22:090:22:13

"Look, I have heard the F-word."

0:22:130:22:16

SHE LAUGHS

0:22:160:22:19

The show was a huge success,

0:22:190:22:21

and helped to launch Barbara's pop career.

0:22:210:22:24

In 1976, she released her third solo album,

0:22:240:22:27

with the song Answer Me, propelling her into the top ten.

0:22:270:22:32

# In my sorrow now I turn to you

0:22:320:22:35

# Please answer me, my love

0:22:350:22:39

-# Oh answer me

-Answer me

0:22:390:22:42

# Answer me, my love. #

0:22:420:22:46

Answer me is the perfect case in point for me,

0:22:460:22:50

a folk singer singing a pop song.

0:22:500:22:53

Pop at its most perfect, really, that song, Answer Me.

0:22:530:22:56

And it always puts a big smile on all of our faces, you know.

0:22:560:23:00

She sits down at the piano,

0:23:000:23:01

we all look at each other and we all know this is it,

0:23:010:23:04

we're on Top Of The Pops in 1976.

0:23:040:23:06

By now, Barbara had a record label and a full production back-up.

0:23:100:23:14

A press officer, label manager, publishing people.

0:23:160:23:21

Yeah, there's a team looking after my work and my product.

0:23:210:23:26

And your image.

0:23:260:23:27

-And my image, yeah.

-So, how did your image change

0:23:270:23:30

and were you pleased with it?

0:23:300:23:32

Well, I was doing a cover

0:23:320:23:36

for the Answer Me album

0:23:360:23:39

with a photographer called Lauren Zeteci

0:23:390:23:42

and he said, "I want to do something seriously different with your hair,"

0:23:420:23:46

and he got... He cut my hair, permed my hair

0:23:460:23:50

and made me up,

0:23:500:23:52

and so it was almost like a character thing,

0:23:520:23:55

and I was comfortable with that.

0:23:550:23:58

And I went to the theatre that night and nobody recognised me,

0:23:580:24:01

so my life had changed.

0:24:010:24:02

I always used that as a life-affirming image

0:24:020:24:05

of what women can do with a little bit of help. Just help.

0:24:050:24:10

You know? That's all I needed, to be guided into realising

0:24:100:24:14

that I was a swan and not a duck.

0:24:140:24:16

# I don't expect my love... #

0:24:190:24:21

Barbara was certainly getting noticed,

0:24:210:24:23

and was asked by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber to sing

0:24:230:24:27

on the original cast recording of their new musical, Evita.

0:24:270:24:31

She achieved her second top-20 hit.

0:24:310:24:33

# Being used to trouble

0:24:340:24:38

# I anticipated

0:24:380:24:42

# But all the same I hate it

0:24:420:24:46

# Wouldn't you?

0:24:460:24:48

-# So what happens now?

-Another suitcase... #

0:24:480:24:52

I liked what I did at that time. I mean, I liked doing

0:24:520:24:55

Another Suitcase In Another Hall for that Evita album.

0:24:550:24:59

I'm delighted I wasn't cast as Evita.

0:24:590:25:02

That would not have been good for me.

0:25:020:25:05

But I got, I think, the best song, which was great, just by default.

0:25:050:25:09

# Time and time again I said that I don't care

0:25:090:25:17

# That I'm immune to gloom

0:25:170:25:21

# That I'm hard through and through... #

0:25:210:25:24

Another suitcase, another hall,

0:25:240:25:27

she was the first person to perform that,

0:25:270:25:30

as far as I know, and to perform it really, really well.

0:25:300:25:35

It's probably one of the best songs off of that musical, I think.

0:25:350:25:39

It has a really interesting melody,

0:25:390:25:41

an interesting lyric and there's something a bit,

0:25:410:25:44

that's a sense of abandonment that's in there and so on

0:25:440:25:48

and she found that.

0:25:480:25:50

More hits followed in quick succession,

0:25:500:25:53

as Barbara became a familiar face on Top Of The Pops.

0:25:530:25:56

Well, Barbara Dickson has come a long way since the days of

0:25:560:25:59

John, Paul, George, Ringo...And Burt and here she is.

0:25:590:26:01

I had a hit with January February, so I was working with Alan Tarney,

0:26:010:26:05

who was the most sought-after pop producer of the time.

0:26:050:26:09

That was a good record. A really good record.

0:26:090:26:12

# January, February

0:26:150:26:16

# I don't understand

0:26:160:26:19

# Why it is you say you leave and then you turn around

0:26:190:26:24

# You won't settle down... #

0:26:240:26:26

I'm delighted with that.

0:26:260:26:28

I love Caravans, which I did with Mike Batt and is still

0:26:280:26:33

the most favourite song of anything I do today.

0:26:330:26:36

People would kill me if I didn't sing that song.

0:26:360:26:39

# But I'm going

0:26:390:26:45

# Caravans

0:26:460:26:49

# My soul is on the run... #

0:26:490:26:54

But it's much more popular than January February

0:26:560:26:59

because it has that kind of anthemic thing in it,

0:26:590:27:02

but I don't know, you know, life is a trial,

0:27:020:27:06

I'm heading out into the wide blue yonder,

0:27:060:27:09

I have no idea what's going to happen to me, but off I go.

0:27:090:27:11

That's why people like that song.

0:27:110:27:13

# I am flying

0:27:130:27:17

# Caravan

0:27:170:27:21

# Moving out to the sand

0:27:210:27:25

# I don't know where I'm going but I'm going... #

0:27:250:27:30

Barbara's star continued to rise, helped by regular appearances

0:27:310:27:35

on one of the highest-rating television shows of the time -

0:27:350:27:38

The Two Ronnies.

0:27:380:27:39

It was wonderful doing The Two Ronnies.

0:27:440:27:47

Ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Dickson.

0:27:470:27:50

They did my music as an insert,

0:27:500:27:52

but it was so brilliant to be associated with them.

0:27:520:27:57

I mean, apart from the 15 million people a week who watched it.

0:27:570:28:00

# Try and see it my way

0:28:000:28:03

# Do I have to keep on talking till I can't go on

0:28:030:28:07

# Why do you see it your way

0:28:070:28:10

# When the risk of knowing that our love may soon be gone?

0:28:100:28:14

# We can work it out We can work it out... #

0:28:140:28:20

That didn't matter to me.

0:28:200:28:22

I mean, it was, all the people,

0:28:220:28:24

all the people who were number crunching were going,

0:28:240:28:26

"That's a marvel, they sell a lot of records."

0:28:260:28:29

And doing Top Of The Pops much the same, but to me,

0:28:290:28:31

I was always more excited by who else was on Top Of The Pops.

0:28:310:28:35

You know, "Oh, I'm on with somebody. I'm on with Phil Collins.

0:28:350:28:38

"Oh, my goodness, that's brilliant."

0:28:380:28:40

# I was never so much younger than... #

0:28:400:28:45

Another hit single that Barbara has forever been associated with

0:28:460:28:50

was taken from the musical, Chess.

0:28:500:28:52

-# Wasn't it good?

-Oh, so good

0:28:520:28:55

-# Wasn't he fine?

-Oh, so fine

0:28:550:28:58

-# Isn't it madness

-He won't be mine...

-#

0:28:580:29:02

Recorded with Elaine Paige,

0:29:020:29:04

it became number one and became a top-ten hit around the world.

0:29:040:29:07

# Didn't I know how it would go if I knew from the start... #

0:29:070:29:13

I mean, I love I Know Him So Well.

0:29:150:29:18

I mean, people think the video's a bit, well,

0:29:180:29:21

so what, it's of its time.

0:29:210:29:23

And you'd put up with the video any time

0:29:230:29:26

for that great melody, wouldn't you?

0:29:260:29:28

# Wasn't it good

0:29:280:29:32

# Wasn't he fine

0:29:320:29:34

# Isn't it madness

0:29:340:29:36

# He won't be mine

0:29:360:29:40

# But in the end he needs a little bit more than me

0:29:410:29:47

-# More security

-He needs his fantasy and freedom

0:29:470:29:54

# I know him so well... #

0:29:540:29:58

Well, that video, that in capital letters,

0:29:580:30:01

that video of I Know Him So Well,

0:30:010:30:04

is kind of burned into the consciousness

0:30:040:30:07

of a lot of people who grew up in the '80s.

0:30:070:30:09

Everybody knows it and it's, let's face it,

0:30:090:30:13

it's loved by a lot of people, but it didn't reflect her at all.

0:30:130:30:19

There is a slightly unfortunate thing in our lives

0:30:190:30:23

where people do tend to get branded with something

0:30:230:30:27

or perhaps the most prominent thing you did.

0:30:270:30:30

Be careful of what that is cos it's going to follow you around forever.

0:30:300:30:35

But I think she handles that rather well.

0:30:350:30:38

Barbara was a household name and was even given her own show.

0:30:400:30:44

Yet all this attention didn't sit easily with her.

0:30:440:30:47

I did too much light entertainment.

0:30:490:30:53

There's no doubt about that.

0:30:530:30:54

Because I was kind of seen as the girl next door.

0:30:540:30:57

# Just a dream and the wind to carry me

0:30:570:31:01

# And soon I will be free... #

0:31:010:31:05

They would think, "Oh, she's nice. She's harmless, let's get her."

0:31:080:31:12

And so I would be on every single show where they would go,

0:31:120:31:16

"Ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Dickson."

0:31:160:31:18

That was OK, but there was too much of that and I think there was

0:31:180:31:22

too much of me on television at that time.

0:31:220:31:25

Hello and welcome to another afternoon show.

0:31:270:31:29

Still In The Game, Barbara Dickson.

0:31:300:31:33

..Week's reviewers are

0:31:340:31:35

-the singer and songwriter Barbara Dickson...

-Good evening.

0:31:350:31:38

Completing a trio of very lovely ladies, Barbara Dickson.

0:31:380:31:42

This is Caravans from Barbara Dickson.

0:31:420:31:44

Were you uncomfortable with fame or did you enjoy it?

0:31:510:31:53

No, I didn't enjoy it at all because I was always concerned with

0:31:530:31:58

diluting what I felt that I had to offer

0:31:580:32:00

and I think to a large extent, it did.

0:32:000:32:02

I think she probably doesn't like all the stuff that comes with fame,

0:32:020:32:07

the kind of shallow aspect of it because that's one thing she isn't,

0:32:070:32:11

she isn't shallow at all.

0:32:110:32:13

And all the stuff that comes along with being famous,

0:32:130:32:18

people wanting something from you.

0:32:180:32:20

I remember her telling a story, very early on,

0:32:200:32:22

she must of just been in Blood Brothers and she was walking

0:32:220:32:26

down Shaftesbury Avenue and somebody got out of a taxi, saw her,

0:32:260:32:30

came running over and said, "Are you Barbara Dickson?"

0:32:300:32:32

She said, "No, you've got me mixed up." Carried straight on.

0:32:320:32:35

Quite often, at the end of some kind of showbiz do or whatever,

0:32:350:32:41

she'll be there for it but then she'll go.

0:32:410:32:44

You'll look around, she won't be there.

0:32:440:32:46

Barbara's resistance to fame was more than just an aversion to parties.

0:32:470:32:51

She found it a genuine struggle and sought help

0:32:510:32:54

in the form of counselling.

0:32:540:32:55

And I did analysis for quite a long time...

0:32:570:33:00

..and I... It helped me enormously.

0:33:020:33:05

All it did was help me to prioritise things and lose a bit of fear.

0:33:050:33:10

Got rid of a lot of fear, unnecessary fear about things.

0:33:100:33:15

What were you afraid of?

0:33:150:33:16

I was afraid of losing my soul, losing my identity.

0:33:160:33:22

I had a very good manager who was very ambitious on my behalf,

0:33:220:33:30

but unfortunately, I didn't share his world view of what I should be,

0:33:300:33:35

which was very, very frustrating for him

0:33:350:33:37

because he couldn't understand why somebody wouldn't want to do

0:33:370:33:41

three years at Las Vegas, you know. Being on every night of the week.

0:33:410:33:47

I could not have borne it because to me, it was utterly miserable.

0:33:470:33:51

The 1980s continued to offer Barbara new challenges.

0:33:530:33:56

Her old friend, Willie Russell, asked her to take on the lead role

0:33:560:34:00

of Mrs Johnstone in his new musical, Blood Brothers.

0:34:000:34:03

# I regret to inform you

0:34:030:34:05

# That owing to circumstances quite beyond our control

0:34:060:34:11

# It's a premature retirement... #

0:34:110:34:13

I certainly remember Blood Brothers.

0:34:130:34:15

She took to it so well.

0:34:150:34:17

She's one of those people who probably is infuriating

0:34:170:34:23

for people who've studied acting for years and years,

0:34:230:34:27

you know, that she sounds genuine.

0:34:270:34:29

She sounds, you know, she has that knack of making it sound natural.

0:34:290:34:34

# And the price you're going to have to pay

0:34:340:34:40

# It's just a secret glance across the room... #

0:34:400:34:46

The winner of the Actress Of The Year In A Musical is...

0:34:460:34:49

Barbara Dickson!

0:34:490:34:51

CHEERING

0:34:520:34:54

Totally well-deserved award for singer, Barbara Dickson,

0:34:550:34:58

for her fine performance in Willy Russell's dramatic musical

0:34:580:35:01

from the Liverpool Playhouse, Blood Brothers.

0:35:010:35:04

Despite being a hit in the West End,

0:35:040:35:06

Barbara originally wrestled with whether she should take on the role.

0:35:060:35:10

So when you were offered Mrs Johnstone,

0:35:120:35:15

did you at first think, that's definitely for me,

0:35:150:35:18

I'm a fit, or was it frightening?

0:35:180:35:21

It was terrifying, and in fact, I didn't, I said I wouldn't do it.

0:35:210:35:25

I had to really be backed into a corner,

0:35:250:35:27

because I'd never acted before,

0:35:270:35:29

and I wasn't prepared to kind of take a chance on it.

0:35:290:35:32

I thought in my heart it was too difficult for me to do that.

0:35:320:35:37

I could sing the songs without any difficulty,

0:35:370:35:40

but what was a problem for me, was the acting,

0:35:400:35:43

because I wanted to do justice to it.

0:35:430:35:46

Oh, but it's all right, Mrs Lyons, I'll still be able to do my work,

0:35:460:35:49

having babies is like clockwork to me.

0:35:490:35:51

I'm back on my feet and working the next day, you know.

0:35:510:35:54

If I have this on the weekend, I won't even need to take one day off.

0:35:540:35:58

She was terrified.

0:35:580:36:00

She was absolute terrified, and it caught up with her, that terror,

0:36:000:36:04

because, I know what it's like.

0:36:040:36:06

She's got no...basis on which to...

0:36:060:36:11

..to conduct a long run of a show.

0:36:130:36:16

Having not acted before, and I had no experience of acting,

0:36:160:36:20

I came twice...the wheels came off what I was doing.

0:36:200:36:25

Once in Liverpool and once in London.

0:36:250:36:27

In the middle of the run in Liverpool,

0:36:270:36:29

I think something to do with the seriousness of the role,

0:36:290:36:34

the amount of angst that was required from me,

0:36:340:36:39

the emotional roller-coaster of the part, I couldn't pretend to do it.

0:36:390:36:45

I was doing it kind of for real, all the time.

0:36:450:36:49

So it was so arduous, that in the middle of the run in...

0:36:490:36:54

..in Liverpool, I had a kind of crisis.

0:36:560:36:59

# Tell me it's not true

0:37:020:37:05

# Say it's just a story... #

0:37:060:37:12

I remember talking to Barbara about her finding it difficult

0:37:130:37:19

to keep doing that same performance again and again and again.

0:37:190:37:23

You know, that sort of relentless aspect of being in the West End.

0:37:230:37:27

And, you know, needing to step back from that.

0:37:270:37:31

# Say it's just a dream

0:37:310:37:34

# Say it's just a scene... #

0:37:340:37:36

I remember Barbara saying. She did that classic thing, you know,

0:37:380:37:42

I mean, I know how frightening it can be when you're on stage,

0:37:420:37:45

and you leave your own body, and you're up there, you know.

0:37:450:37:48

You're up in the flies looking down at yourself, you know.

0:37:480:37:52

A lot of people never overcome that. Barbara has.

0:37:520:37:56

She said to me many, many years later,

0:37:560:37:58

that after that occasion in Liverpool,

0:37:580:38:01

she was never really fully able to enjoy the show,

0:38:010:38:05

because the second she came off stage, you know,

0:38:050:38:08

ecstatic applause ringing in her ears, her first thought would be,

0:38:080:38:12

"I've got to do it again tomorrow."

0:38:120:38:14

It never occurred to me to leave the show, but I was thinking,

0:38:190:38:24

"I don't think I can do this any more, I'm too tired."

0:38:240:38:27

I could hardly put one foot in front of the other, and if I think,

0:38:320:38:35

if I had had the mental strength to go on and on and on,

0:38:350:38:40

I would've had a terrific nervous breakdown.

0:38:400:38:42

But I didn't, I just kind of went home in floods of tears,

0:38:430:38:47

got put to bed, and was off about four weeks,

0:38:470:38:50

and then eventually went back.

0:38:500:38:53

And my stage fright, because of these things that had happened to me

0:38:530:38:58

in Blood Brothers, that stayed with me for years.

0:38:580:39:03

So from 1983 to about the late '90s,

0:39:030:39:07

I suffered every single time I went on stage.

0:39:070:39:10

I had terrible anxiety.

0:39:100:39:12

# Beginning to think that I'm wasting time

0:39:120:39:17

# And I don't understand the things I do

0:39:200:39:24

# The world outside looks so unkind... #

0:39:270:39:29

Once you've traumatised yourself with the terrible fear

0:39:320:39:35

and you've had that thing of saying the line and thinking,

0:39:350:39:39

"I don't know what I'm going to say next, I've no idea, here it comes,

0:39:390:39:42

"here it comes," and there it isn't.

0:39:420:39:44

I can understand that that's extremely traumatic,

0:39:440:39:48

and then you...then you become frightened of becoming frightened.

0:39:480:39:52

# I want to get lost in the rock and roll and drift away... #

0:39:520:39:57

I don't have it now, but now, you see, if somebody was to ring me up

0:40:060:40:09

and say, "Will you sing at the Oscars?" I would say, "No,"

0:40:090:40:12

because I might be sick in a bucket before I do it,

0:40:120:40:17

and I can't do that any more. Life's too short.

0:40:170:40:20

She just doesn't do anything she doesn't want.

0:40:200:40:22

She'd rather go and sing some, um...

0:40:220:40:25

you know, some advent carol in a cathedral, for one night,

0:40:250:40:32

for nothing,

0:40:320:40:33

than go out to Australia and eat bugs for half a million quid!

0:40:330:40:38

She would! I know she would.

0:40:400:40:42

With work dominating Barbara's life so completely,

0:40:460:40:49

she'd ruled out the chance of being lucky in love.

0:40:490:40:52

So I thought, this is not going to happen to me,

0:40:550:40:57

because I'd had a couple of broken relationships famously.

0:40:570:41:01

I made a big mistake in one of them and I went, "This... I'm really..."

0:41:010:41:05

And then I was in analysis.

0:41:050:41:07

But in 1983, she met an assistant stage manager

0:41:080:41:11

who was 11 years her junior, Oliver Cookson.

0:41:110:41:14

The first time I met her was in the rehearsal room at Matthew Street.

0:41:170:41:21

She was smaller than I thought, having seen her on television.

0:41:210:41:24

I thought she was quite... quite tall,

0:41:240:41:27

when I saw her on television,

0:41:270:41:28

but she was smaller and um...

0:41:280:41:31

And I thought more interesting looking, actually.

0:41:310:41:33

And I think probably the first thing I said to her

0:41:350:41:37

would be something along the lines of...

0:41:370:41:39

Hello, I'm Oliver, would you like to join the tea club?

0:41:390:41:42

Which, for chat-up lines is not... not a great one, but it sort of,

0:41:440:41:47

something happened, and she did.

0:41:470:41:50

And so I had to put some money into having tea and coffee

0:41:500:41:54

in the rehearsal room in Matthew Street in Liverpool.

0:41:540:41:56

And, er, we got to know each other over those weeks and months

0:41:560:42:01

in Liverpool and then the show moved to London

0:42:010:42:04

and we all moved to London with it.

0:42:040:42:07

He and I used to talk, we were part of the gang who went out and stuff,

0:42:080:42:12

and obviously, there was a really nice relationship between us,

0:42:120:42:15

but I...

0:42:150:42:16

It's famously known that I thought, this is not my relationship,

0:42:160:42:22

because he was 11 years younger than me.

0:42:220:42:25

And I thought, that's not, that's not going to be a relationship.

0:42:250:42:30

I think she was a bit unsure, because of...11 years.

0:42:300:42:35

But, Barbara, she thinks too much. Everything is thought through.

0:42:370:42:41

I just thought, she's the girl for me, this will do,

0:42:410:42:44

what's the problem? You know. And um...

0:42:440:42:47

She was all right, she got there in the end.

0:42:490:42:52

# Little darlin', it's been a long cold lonely winter... #

0:42:520:42:58

When we eventually got together, which took a very long time,

0:42:580:43:03

I just remember cutting to being in church getting married

0:43:030:43:08

in Richmond, and going, "My God, this is so serious.

0:43:080:43:11

"This is a really serious thing I'm saying here."

0:43:110:43:15

# Little darlin' The smiles we turn... #

0:43:150:43:20

I hope I can fulfil what I am saying I'm going to do here.

0:43:200:43:25

I was a bride who listened to what the priest was saying.

0:43:250:43:30

# Here comes the sun and I say

0:43:300:43:34

# It's all right

0:43:340:43:36

# It's all right... #

0:43:400:43:42

APPLAUSE

0:43:520:43:53

And talking about faith, Oliver was, is a Catholic...

0:43:550:44:00

-Yes.

-And really wanted to be married in a Catholic church.

0:44:000:44:03

However, he was extremely lapsed.

0:44:030:44:06

-Ah.

-He was lapsed.

0:44:060:44:09

And you were coming into it.

0:44:090:44:11

It was me that brought us back to church, basically.

0:44:110:44:14

And, of course, I had to get baptismal evidence from the...

0:44:140:44:19

..from Dunfermline Abbey where I had been baptised

0:44:190:44:23

in the Church of Scotland years before,

0:44:230:44:26

and then we were married in a Catholic Church in Richmond.

0:44:260:44:32

I was 35 and I had to make a decision about,

0:44:320:44:36

if I was going to have some children, I had to get on with it.

0:44:360:44:40

I said, "Can we have a baby?"

0:44:400:44:43

And he said, "No, you're not going to have a baby until you get your overdraft down."

0:44:430:44:48

That's what he said to me.

0:44:500:44:51

I mean, it sounds bit mean really, looking back on it.

0:44:510:44:54

You say you can't have a baby until you get rid of your overdraft,

0:44:540:44:58

but you know, my mum was quite careful with money.

0:44:580:45:01

Being married to an actor, you know, it wasn't always...

0:45:010:45:05

There wasn't always work out there, so you had to be careful.

0:45:050:45:09

Did I ever get rid of that overdraft quickly?

0:45:090:45:12

Barbara fulfilled her dream of having a family,

0:45:170:45:20

and was blessed with three boys.

0:45:200:45:22

She was also becoming increasingly drawn to the Catholic church,

0:45:220:45:25

and soon made a big decision.

0:45:250:45:27

The parish priest I hardly knew he said,

0:45:300:45:32

"Barbara, don't become a Catholic because your family

0:45:320:45:36

"need to go to church. That's not why you should do it.

0:45:360:45:40

"If you want to come into the faith,

0:45:400:45:43

"come in to the faith because of what is in your heart,

0:45:430:45:47

"not because of anybody else."

0:45:470:45:49

So I frogmarched everybody down to church

0:45:490:45:52

and we started to go to church, and then I suddenly went,

0:45:520:45:56

"This is what I've always wanted to do."

0:45:560:45:59

So I had a sponsor.

0:45:590:46:02

I was confirmed in the 1990s.

0:46:020:46:06

So it was just wonderful, because I felt as if I was coming home.

0:46:060:46:11

And the liturgy in the faith is the thing that I just love,

0:46:110:46:16

and suddenly, I've connected to something pre-Reformation.

0:46:160:46:20

And I think as you get older you realise what's important, you know,

0:46:200:46:25

family and friends and trying to make the world a better place.

0:46:250:46:29

She wasn't Catholic when I met her,

0:46:300:46:33

but she had a very strong tractor beam

0:46:330:46:36

pulling her towards Catholicism.

0:46:360:46:39

But it was in a very... in a very lovely way.

0:46:410:46:44

She didn't become a ranting fundamentalist

0:46:440:46:48

or anything like that.

0:46:480:46:49

She wasn't like a new convert who decided to shout at everyone,

0:46:490:46:53

you know, she wasn't a manic street preacher.

0:46:530:46:56

She doesn't evangelise,

0:46:560:46:57

it's very much something that is hers, it's her life.

0:46:570:47:01

# Why did you go?

0:47:040:47:06

# Why did you go?

0:47:090:47:11

# Don't you know, don't you know

0:47:130:47:18

# I need you?

0:47:180:47:24

# I keep hoping you'll come back to me... #

0:47:240:47:31

For wherever I go in the world, I go to mass and mumble away

0:47:310:47:35

in English while everyone is mumbling away in Serbo-Croat.

0:47:350:47:40

I'm fine with that.

0:47:400:47:41

And I feel connected to the world through my faith,

0:47:410:47:45

and I feel connected to Saint Paul.

0:47:450:47:47

That's it, simple.

0:47:480:47:50

Wow. That's... When you say simple, well, that's a vast thing.

0:47:500:47:54

It's a vast thing that I see very clearly as a through line.

0:47:540:47:58

It's absolutely, utterly where I love to be.

0:47:580:48:04

Everything makes sense to me...

0:48:040:48:06

..in that way.

0:48:080:48:10

I'm still anxious and I'm not a good person, and I just strive to be,

0:48:100:48:16

you know, a reasonable human being,

0:48:160:48:19

and to be kind and loving and fair

0:48:190:48:23

and tolerant, but I'm not always.

0:48:230:48:27

-Well, you're human.

-I'm not remotely perfect, and I never will be.

0:48:270:48:32

And none of us are.

0:48:320:48:34

But it just gives me a little code, and that's a good thing.

0:48:340:48:38

Rules and codes are good, in my experience.

0:48:380:48:43

There is also something that a lot of people can experience in church,

0:48:430:48:48

it's not all the time, not every time,

0:48:480:48:50

but that real sense of fellowship that you are in a crowd of people

0:48:500:48:55

feeling, thinking the same thing, and that's very, very powerful.

0:48:550:48:59

Do you ever get that feeling?

0:48:590:49:02

I do, I do think that's a factor, but for me,

0:49:030:49:06

it's feeling the presence in church of the spiritual,

0:49:060:49:11

the collective spirituality.

0:49:110:49:14

It's quite...it's quite abstract what I'm talking about.

0:49:140:49:19

But I can feel that in an abandoned redundant church in England

0:49:190:49:23

that's been closed for 20 years, but is a medieval building.

0:49:230:49:29

I can go into that and I can feel the prayers of the people

0:49:290:49:34

who have been in there.

0:49:340:49:36

There's something gorgeous within those bare walls

0:49:360:49:41

and the dusty few pews that are still there.

0:49:410:49:44

So if you go into a working cathedral where you can smell

0:49:440:49:48

incense and there's the smell of, say, flowers,

0:49:480:49:52

but nobody is in there, that is the thing.

0:49:520:49:55

It was GK Chesterton, I think, who talked about the presence,

0:49:570:50:01

feeling the presence.

0:50:010:50:03

CHOIRBOY SINGS

0:50:030:50:07

Our clergy are lovely.

0:50:090:50:12

They are kind, they're tolerant,

0:50:120:50:14

there's a lot of difficulties in Edinburgh.

0:50:140:50:17

There's a lot of difficulties anywhere.

0:50:170:50:18

There's homeless people, a lot of disadvantaged people who want

0:50:180:50:23

support, who can't always get it, who come wandering about

0:50:230:50:27

in places like churches looking for people, and they're great.

0:50:270:50:31

You volunteer in the church, doing the flowers, cleaning,

0:50:310:50:35

-you're on the rota.

-Yeah, I am.

0:50:350:50:38

I do what I can.

0:50:380:50:40

I'm a reader, I read with Oliver.

0:50:420:50:44

# Here might I stay and sing

0:50:440:50:49

# No story so divine... #

0:50:490:50:55

As well as the fulfilment she finds in church and family,

0:50:560:50:59

Barbara is passionate as ever about her first love, music.

0:50:590:51:04

# This is my friend in whose sweet praise... #

0:51:040:51:10

50 years after she started, Barbara's still eager to get out on the road.

0:51:100:51:16

2019 is my next big band tour.

0:51:200:51:25

That is... The main venues, you know, I'll play Glasgow,

0:51:250:51:29

Newcastle, London, play the big ones with my five-piece band.

0:51:290:51:34

And that is the most, for me, the most glorious musical experience

0:51:340:51:40

doing the perfect music with the best possible people.

0:51:400:51:44

She can go out there every couple of years and fill the halls

0:51:440:51:48

and there's a really good crowd

0:51:480:51:50

of regular attendees who want to come and see her,

0:51:500:51:53

and there's lots of new people keep on coming as well.

0:51:530:51:56

So, that's no small achievement when you look at all of

0:51:560:52:00

what could be described as similar careers around the place.

0:52:000:52:03

The beautiful paradox is that she became a huge star,

0:52:030:52:09

but she never pursued it.

0:52:090:52:11

She never wanted to be a big pop singing superstar, she never did.

0:52:110:52:15

All she wanted to be was a musician,

0:52:150:52:17

and that's exactly what she is in every sense.

0:52:170:52:21

# I would gang with you

0:52:210:52:24

# A stranger... #

0:52:240:52:29

You're taking care of yourself?

0:52:340:52:36

-I don't really take care of myself, no.

-Don't you?

-No, I know.

0:52:360:52:39

I'm not a pampered woman.

0:52:390:52:41

And everybody in my family would laugh at me if I was.

0:52:410:52:45

But they all say that, um, that I'm a good representative

0:52:450:52:50

of a woman of my age. I've got something to say for myself,

0:52:500:52:54

and I haven't had facial surgery,

0:52:540:52:57

and I don't believe in anything like that, because I think it's a lie.

0:52:570:53:02

And you have to learn to live with yourself

0:53:020:53:05

and that's what I'm trying to do.

0:53:050:53:07

Like everyone else, I have bad days and good days,

0:53:070:53:10

but in the main, I want to be useful,

0:53:100:53:15

particularly to my own peer group as well.

0:53:150:53:18

I want to inspire people and let everybody know that it's possible

0:53:180:53:24

to do what I'm doing, and keep... Do what you do.

0:53:240:53:30

Do what, you know...

0:53:300:53:31

You are nothing like as old as I am, but my peer group...

0:53:310:53:37

Well, we're close, we're close.

0:53:370:53:39

-I'm 60.

-I'm 70.

0:53:390:53:42

So in that extra ten years,

0:53:420:53:44

a lot of people would tend to give up once they retire, and say,

0:53:440:53:49

"Right, OK, that's it now. I've got to be a grey-haired old granny."

0:53:490:53:53

Now, there's none of that at all.

0:53:530:53:55

I don't think anybody needs to be anything they don't want to be.

0:53:550:53:58

-Yes.

-And I get women with glowing faces coming up to me

0:53:580:54:03

at the end of the show and saying, "You are an inspiration to me.

0:54:030:54:08

"I'm the same age as you, and you are an inspiration to me."

0:54:080:54:12

We have to not listen to anybody who says it's impossible.

0:54:120:54:16

-Keep going.

-No. Keep being who we are.

-Absolutely.

0:54:160:54:19

Please welcome Barbara Dickson.

0:54:190:54:21

APPLAUSE

0:54:210:54:24

So, Christmas, darling. Do you have a lovely Christmas?

0:54:260:54:29

Do you go mad decorating the house, presents, food, church?

0:54:290:54:35

No, I don't, I don't overdo it.

0:54:350:54:37

It's quite simple and it's quite real, our Christmas.

0:54:370:54:40

# Through the bleak midwinter

0:54:400:54:45

# Frosty wind made moan... #

0:54:450:54:52

Everybody in my family is a cook.

0:54:520:54:54

So it really is literally too many cooks, all fighting and arguing,

0:54:540:54:59

and drinking wine in the kitchen and arguing with each other.

0:54:590:55:02

So Oliver said, "No, we're going to go out."

0:55:020:55:05

So we're going to go out for Christmas dinner.

0:55:050:55:08

# Snow on snow

0:55:080:55:13

# In the bleak midwinter

0:55:130:55:19

# Long, long ago... #

0:55:190:55:22

So what we do is, now, we go to midnight mass, which is wonderful.

0:55:220:55:28

So we tend to not get to bed until about 2am.

0:55:280:55:31

That mass is big-time, and it goes on and on and on.

0:55:310:55:35

The Bishop will be there, it will be fantastic.

0:55:350:55:38

The church will be lit, flowers, wonderful.

0:55:380:55:41

It's such a lovely, joyful celebration.

0:55:410:55:44

It's so wonderful, it starts Christmas for us.

0:55:440:55:47

Come home, probably have a glass of something, fall into bed.

0:55:470:55:51

Get up kind of late, have a brunch and then open presents,

0:55:510:55:58

and lovely time round the tree,

0:55:580:56:00

and then we'll go out for lunch and then just a quiet Christmas.

0:56:000:56:05

Well, we wish you a very Merry Christmas

0:56:050:56:08

and a good New Year as well.

0:56:080:56:10

-Thank you, Barbara.

-You're so kind.

0:56:100:56:11

Thank you very much, Fern, it's been a delight.

0:56:110:56:14

It has been lovely.

0:56:140:56:15

Well, what a lovely morning with Barbara.

0:56:200:56:23

I started the day wondering what it is that drives her

0:56:230:56:26

through her career, and I think it's clear.

0:56:260:56:29

She's just very human and she has enormous fortitude.

0:56:290:56:32

And when life has been bad, she's got on with it.

0:56:320:56:35

When life has been good, she's got on with it.

0:56:350:56:37

Sometimes there's been bad and good and she's got on with it.

0:56:370:56:39

And that message about always be what you want to be,

0:56:390:56:43

not what others want you to be, is very strong.

0:56:430:56:46

Next week, I'm going to the House of Commons

0:56:480:56:51

to meet the Reverend Rose Hudson Wilkin

0:56:510:56:53

who's been looking after the spiritual welfare of MPs

0:56:530:56:56

during a period which saw a terror attack on Westminster itself.

0:56:560:57:01

We are not defined by that act of evil,

0:57:010:57:04

instead, we are defined by acts of forgiveness.

0:57:040:57:08

Rose has also had to deal with the murder of an MP,

0:57:080:57:13

in her role as chaplain to the Speaker of Commons.

0:57:130:57:16

She has been a towering presence, morally, spiritually, humanely.

0:57:160:57:23

And Rose also tells me about a girlhood dream

0:57:230:57:26

that led to her life of religious service.

0:57:260:57:29

I was so excited that I started saying,

0:57:290:57:32

"Thank the Lord! Praise the Lord!"

0:57:320:57:34

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