Rev Rose Hudson-Wilkin Fern Britton Meets...

The Palace of Westminster, seat of political power in the UK

and the final destination for this Advent series.

I'm standing exactly on the spot where MPs come out to be

grilled by journalists after various debates.

And I'm here to meet a woman who plays a crucial part here.

But, strangely, she's not a politician.

The Rev Rose Hudson-Wilkin is chaplain

to the Speaker of the House of Commons,

the first black woman to take on that historic role,

and someone who lives and breathes

the themes that underpin this season of Advent.

I always feel a little bit like Wallace and Gromit,

where he's just standing, falling into all the clothes.

In the party politics of Westminster,

the Rev Rose is a calming presence

and spiritual guardian to many of the MPs who work here.

It's a good job that Rose is a good listener

because a lot of the people who come to see her are Parliamentarians.

One thing that Parliamentarians tend to do is talk.

Quite a lot.

She has played a crucial role in moments of national tragedy.

We are not defined by that act of evil.

Instead, we are defined by acts of forgiveness.

Born into humble beginnings in Jamaica, Rose spent

most of her childhood separated from her mother.

The church became her rock and she said that she was around 14

when she felt she was called to the priesthood in a dream.

I was so excited, I started saying, "Thank the Lord! Praise the Lord!"

Since then, she's faced racism, sexism,

and fought them to become the person she is today -

an outspoken, uncompromising voice on issues like greater diversity

and the role of women in the church.

She doesn't take no for an answer, for sure.

Rose has also proudly embraced her role as a chaplain to the Queen.

I want to know how Rose found the courage and the fortitude

to face the many trials that her life has thrown at her.

And also how she went from sunny Montego Bay to these dark,

forbidding corridors of power in Westminster.

# It's all on the right side in Montego Bay... #

On the beautiful island of Jamaica lies Montego Bay,

a dream destination, and, in 1961, the birthplace of the young Rose.

# Come sing me la!

# Come sing me Montego Bay

# Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh... #

I have longed to go to Montego Bay ever since I heard the song.

-So, tell me, what was it like being born there?

-You should.

Is it gorgeous?

Montego Bay is beautiful, and I always introduce myself by

saying that I had the good fortune of being born and brought up there.

Apart from it being a beautiful island and a beautiful city,

for me, it was growing up in a place where

I saw images of myself in all walks of life.

So, while walking past the book shop,

there were images there that looked like me.

In government, in the police,

in just about every institution, I could see reflections of myself.

That's really important when you're a child growing up

-because it affirms who you are, in a sense.

-Yeah.

Then, at the age of two, came a moment that signalled a huge

change in Rose's life.

Her mother left her to find work in England.

My mother left to join her brother and her sister in the UK

when I was two years old.

I think the plan was... No-one ever spoke about it.

I think the plan was that perhaps my father would have joined her

and then maybe later we would have joined her.

Something happened, and she found someone else.

And started a new family.

And, so, my sister and I, we remained behind in Jamaica.

Rose's birth mother left her when she was very young.

It must have done her some harm psychologically but the way

in which Rose operates,

and the way in which she's so self-contained...

But then she has her faith.

Rose and her sister were cared for by their aunt Pet

but they had other important support from another source, too.

When you don't have parents around you, you don't

-know what else that you're missing.

-Absolutely.

You really don't know

but I was lucky that I had a church family as well.

We regularly went to church as children and, so,

because of that, it meant that there were people there

who parented in a different way.

CONGREGATION SINGS

She didn't grow up with both of her parents

so I think she found the church very...

..a very strong part of something that she could be a family with,

what she was connected to.

Church Sunday school was part of life.

Yes, it was part of life.

She was very active and involved in everything that was

going on in her church and people loved her. And...

Yes, she was always there,

and it was a very big part of her growing up in Jamaica. Yeah.

Two members of the church who Rose grew close to

became like adopted parents to her -

Horace Whittingham and Faye Jolly -

even though she didn't live with them.

So, what did they do for you in a parental way, Mr Whittingham

-and Miss Jolly?

-I think it was affirmation.

Affirmation and "well done", and the hand across the shoulder, and the...

..making you feel at ease because at home things were very...

..very strict.

You know, you had chores to do, you did your chores,

then you did this, then it was bedtime, the lights were out...

You know, it was very regimental. But, for me, Miss Jolly...

..encapsulated what I looked for in a mother.

And so did Horace Whittingham, in terms of fatherhood.

Rose and her sister Shirley grew up without really knowing their mother.

We were told - if a letter came or a parcel came,

we were told, "Your mother has sent this," etc.

It was usually around perhaps Christmas time that something,

a little parcel, would come.

So you, as a child,

you conjure up these images of, you know, what might she look like?

Because there really weren't many photographs, pictures around,

that showed what she looked like. So I saw her for the first time

when she returned to live in Jamaica when I was nine years old.

# Country roads... #

But when Rose's mother came back to Jamaica in 1970,

she arrived with a husband and four children from her new relationship.

# West Jamaica, my ol' momma... #

When Rose's mother returned from England, I think

it's fair to say she was a virtual stranger to Rose, and Rose to her.

And, so... Like any child, it would take a lot of...

..care and attention and trust.

And some children would probably have an air of resentment.

But, as far as I know, and speaking to Rose,

there hadn't seemed to be any sort...that sort of resentment.

If there was, she hid it very well from me.

When did your mother send for you?

Well, when my mother came back to Jamaica in 1970,

they bought a property in Kingston, Jamaica, the capital.

-This is with her new husband.

-Her new husband, her new family, yes.

They bought a property in Kingston, and then I think within

weeks of returning, she came to Montego Bay to get us.

We were excited, my sister and I.

We were very excited at the possibility of meeting her.

And going to live with her.

And I can still see her now, sitting in the rocking chair, and I'm

standing beside her thinking, "Oh, gosh, that's my mother.

"She's quite pretty. Gosh."

You know, being in a little awe of this. And she's quite tiny.

What was she like, as a mother to you?

I think...

I think she struggled.

I think she struggled to connect with us.

And we, too, probably struggled to connect with her because,

in effect, we were strangers.

The baby that she left back in Montego Bay was no longer a baby.

Or babies.

My sister and I, we were intelligent, and we were not rude

or disrespectful because we were not brought up to be like that.

But I think we did question things, you know.

And I don't think she could handle that.

Did you actually ever ask her, "Why did you leave us?"?

No.

It is a question that I would still like to ask her.

And I hope I do get the opportunity to ask her.

But the new family life didn't last long.

After only two years, there was another parting for Rose

and her mother.

She decided to send you back?

Yes, I was sent back to Montego Bay.

And it really is important for me to understand that

because it sort of sits there somewhere. It's parked.

-It's not getting in the way of life.

-But it's a question mark.

-It is.

I don't understand it.

But, yes, I was sent back.

She kept my sister, Shirley, my big sister.

And I was sent back to Montego Bay.

My mum ended up moving back to Montego Bay.

She describes the hardest bit about that to me

as being away from her sister...

..who she'd been with forever.

I think that that probably was very hard and I can't imagine...

I can't imagine that myself, both as a daughter and a as a mother.

But I guess it's difficult to know...

It's difficult to know the reasons, and why.

Maybe I was difficult, I don't know.

Rose's mum remains a part of her life to this day,

even though there are unanswered questions.

Where is she now?

She lives part of the time in Jamaica

and part of the time in New York.

-Do you still see her?

-Oh, yes.

Oh, yes, I see her...

I was with her earlier this year for her 80th birthday, yes.

I would like to ask her, but I would like to ask her in a way

that doesn't leave her feeling as if she was a failure.

I think that's important.

There were many young people from the Caribbean, my age group,

who were left behind, and we've had to work out what...

you know, who we are, and what does this mean

when we come face-to-face with a new family?

I watch her now with her great-grandchildren

and she is just so relaxed and so laid-back

and I almost wish that she had been like that,

but then she wasn't there for those years when we were growing up,

so we were really strangers to her,

getting to know each other, trying to adjust.

And in the end, probably never did adjust to...

..what it really means to be bonded as mother/daughter.

Back in 1970s Jamaica, it was the church, once again,

that was to play an important role in Rose's life

and her religious conviction began to grow.

When did you first know that you had a vocation?

Growing up in church, we were lucky not to have a priest every week,

because it meant that, on those Sundays when there were no priest,

the young people got to be involved

and the adults were very perceptive that they didn't hog the show,

but they brought the young people in to lead the prayers,

to read the lessons, and those were great.

She had this calling from a very young age

and she knew that that's really what she wanted to do.

# Jesus, would you protect me

# As I travel...? #

Rose played an active role in her church,

but then, as a teenager, came a moment

when Rose knew for certain the path she should follow.

When you were about 14, you had this incredible dream.

Yes, I did, and in this dream... We have verandas in Jamaica,

and in this dream, the light wasn't on

and there was someone at the foot of the steps, down on the ground,

wanting me to bring them into the house.

I didn't know who this person was and I kept saying,

"But I don't know you!" "Oh, just invite me in."

"No, I can't do that!"

Looking back now, I can say it was almost as if there was something...

..a presence that wasn't supposed to be there that wanted to get in.

This revelation in the dream,

I was so excited that I started saying,

"Thank the Lord, praise the Lord," and I was saying it outwardly,

so it woke me up and it woke the others up in the house as well.

It woke us up.

And it disturbed me, it disturbed me.

And in that moment, or that state of being disturbed,

I reached for the Bible.

And so this becomes really a seminal moment that never left me.

And so, from then on,

all I could think of is, "I am being called to ministry."

Rose left school and, at first, worked as a teacher in Jamaica,

but then, in the late '70s, she decided to go to England.

Here in London, she trained as an evangelist with the Church Army,

part of the Church of England.

While you were at college, did you enjoy it?

It was amazing. I loved college.

But it was strange because I was coming away from family and friends

to a completely strange place.

Always heard about the United Kingdom,

"mother country" as it were,

but there was nothing motherly about the mother country.

It was cold, it was freezing cold!

And, actually, I also felt that the people were a bit cold too.

Yes.

We are very tactile in the Caribbean,

we are always talking and touching and...you know.

And people here were... "What is she doing?!"

On the tube, on the bus, don't make eye contact.

Exactly! I couldn't understand it!

And she wasn't afraid to tell it to people, you know.

She said, "When I just came here,

"you are as cold your weather is and as gloomy as your weather is."

That's the person she is, she wasn't afraid to say it, you know.

But did you find that we were quite nice in the end?

We just take a bit of warming up.

Yes, take a bit of getting used to. People are very reserved.

But in 1979, despite her somewhat chilly early English reception,

Rose soon found her feet and her future husband,

fellow student Ken Wilkin.

So, describe the young Ken you saw coming down the corridor.

Well, how can I describe him?

He... I loved his walk and I loved the Geordie accent.

-Oh, he's a Geordie?

-He's a Geordie. Yes.

Oh, she was very...

She was very polite, she was very...prim and proper.

She didn't hang out at the local pub

like some of the others, including myself, did.

They soon fell in love, madly in love, really.

But then you knew who was in the driving seat there.

Ken was so, you know, overtaken with this woman

that he stopped going to the pub with us, you know!

He invited me to his parents' home one holiday while I was at college

and apparently...

-LAUGHING:

-He's going to kill me for this!

Apparently he told them that there was this Jamaican girl at college

who had nowhere to go to...

ROSE LAUGHS

..who had nowhere to go to during the holidays,

so could she come and stay with them?

And they were generous, "Of course, of course,

"we've got a spare bedroom there.

"Of course she can come and stay with us."

And then his sister...

His sister saw us in the park, holding hands!

So she... She went home and said to them,

"I think there's much more to this than just a Jamaican girl who is..."

Hmm! But I can understand why he did that.

Yes, yes.

Although Ken and Rose were an item,

when she finished training in 1982, Rose returned home to Jamaica.

-You returned, leaving him here.

-I returned.

Yes, returned. And he followed me out.

We were planning for me going over to Jamaica

and us settling down in Jamaica to live together.

I was quite excited about it.

I was young and I didn't have a job when I went over.

I had two cases, a one-way ticket and a promise of a marriage

and that was enough to get me over there.

I saw him coming down the steps of the aircraft and I panicked.

I did.

I thought, "Oh, my God!"

He looked so different.

He had changed his hair and he had grown moustache

and I thought, "Oh, my God! What am I doing?!"

And I ran!

I literally ran.

I ran back outside at that moment. "I can't, I can't!"

But he had packed up everything, you know,

-so I couldn't tell him.

-Oh, my goodness!

I could not tell him that I was having any doubts,

that I was petrified at the thought.

Oh, dear!

But it all worked out well.

So, where did you marry, here or there?

We got married in Jamaica, we got married in Jamaica

and that was beautiful.

And who is that handsome young man?

Yes, someone who had only been over eight days in the country.

Is that all? I thought it was two weeks.

-Been a while now.

-I know.

-It was a beautiful day.

-Yes.

We've now been married for... over 34 years,

approximately 34 years.

Well, congratulations.

And I think we have at least another 30 to go!

Of course you do! And you have three children as well.

We have three wonderful children, yes.

Back in the early '80s, Ken decided

he wanted to try to become a priest in the Church of England.

The couple moved back to the UK,

where Ken did his training and they started a family.

Rose's calling remained a strong as ever

and she too wanted to be a priest.

I went to see those who you need to speak to.

Their response to me was, you know, "You are married,

"you have a husband, you have a child,

"ought you not to be looking after your husband and child?"

She was incensed!

Because those are the very things that constantly annoyed her,

rightly so, because by saying that, people are saying

that, as a woman, you're not equal.

It wasn't until 1991 that Rose eventually became a deacon,

assisting at a church in Wolverhampton,

despite some initial resistance.

The vicar wanted to accept me as the curate, the service curate there.

And the PCC, which is the church committee, were unhappy with that.

Some people resigned from the committee and...

But I still went there, I still went there

because I felt overwhelmingly that I was called to be there.

Rose joined the campaign

for the full ordination of women into the Church of England

and she was there for the historic vote approving that in 1992.

I'll never forget, dressed in her black cassock,

made her poster

and she took the train from Wolverhampton to London

to stand silently, dignified and reverently,

with her poster reminding us that we were all created in God's image.

-You were standing with your placard.

-I got this placard made up.

On the one side it said, "Women called to represent Christ."

On the other side it said, "Women,

"beautifully and wonderfully made in the image of God."

And outside there was just this real, "Yes!"

This real joy

that the Church finally listened to the Holy Spirit

and was now going to ordain women as priests.

-ANNOUNCER:

-A two-thirds majority in each...

CHEERING DROWNS SPEECH

-NEWS REPORTER:

-After 17 years of discussion,

the result was greeted with an outburst of joy.

That's a moment, for me, of changing history,

it was absolutely wonderful.

Let us get them a clap and greeting of encouragement

at the start of this journey.

Two years later, Rose was ordained as a priest in Lichfield Cathedral.

-NEWS REPORTER:

-For Rose Hudson-Wilkin, ordination was

the realisation of a childhood ambition

to take a full part in the Church.

-ROSE ON ARCHIVE:

-A most amazing experience.

During it, people were actually sort of whispering to each other,

"It has really happened! Has it happened? Yes, it's happened!"

There was a lot of excitement, a lot of pleasure,

a deep sense of, yes, we have finally given birth at last.

Although Rose was one of the first women

to be ordained in the Church of England,

at her local church in Wolverhampton,

she didn't get drawn into the national debate.

I was there for four years.

For the whole time I was there,

I never once engaged with them about why a woman should be in leadership.

-Really?

-Never once engaged with them.

-Why?

-Well, you know, from my perspective,

if you feel very strongly about something, and they did,

and I feel very strongly about something,

which I certainly did then and still do now,

then it seems to me

that there is no reason for us to go clashing head-to-head.

She would want to actually sit down and talk to them,

she would want to help them

look at their views and attitudes that they had

and try and address them

in a way that would help them be a better person afterwards.

I believe that I am called

and so what I need to do is just to get there and get on with the job.

And I think for me, personally, the sadness of the Church today

is the fact that we have found ourselves in these camps

and then we are constantly clashing and fighting.

"You're not in my camp, so I don't want to have you," you know.

It's... I think it is dishonouring to God, frankly.

Rose's determination and dedication paid dividends,

both in terms of building the congregation

and in changing attitudes.

That congregation grew and flourished.

The Lord bless you and keep you.

She doesn't take no for an answer, for sure.

You know, and she is so positive, she thinks she can do everything.

If you want to do it, you can do it, you can achieve it.

And I recall one of those members coming up to me and saying,

"I want you to know that I was one of those

"who had resigned from the church committee when you first came

"because we believed then that women should not be,

"but I want you to know," she said, "that I have changed my mind.

-This is a woman saying this to you?

-Yes, yes.

"I want you to know that I have changed my mind

"and from your ministry in our midst,

"we now believe that God has called women to this role."

Wow

# The Lord is my shepherd... #

The Vicar Of Dibley, of course,

-that helped the cause tremendously, didn't it?

-Yes.

The joyfulness, yes.

And did you recognise that?

Oh, yes!

Oh, yes, oh, yes!

Her joy, her love for what she was doing

and the various reactions were so real.

Hello, I'm Geraldine, I believe you're expecting me.

No, I'm expecting our new vicar.

Unless, of course, you are the new vicar

and they've landed us with a woman as some sort of insane joke!

So real, exceptionally imaginative.

-Oh, dear.

-Oh, my God!

The way they were able to get that portrayed.

If Jesus wanted women to spread the gospel,

he would have appointed them.

It's Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,

not Sharon, Tracey, Tara and Debbie.

And to see that actually the Church did not fall apart.

The sky didn't fall in.

It didn't fall in.

No.

Rose moved on, via West Bromwich, to London

where, in 1988, she became vicar of a tough inner-city parish

in Hackney, at the time known for its social deprivation.

I said, "Rosie, you don't want go there, no, no!"

But again, Rose being Rose,

realised that she had something to offer the people there.

She felt that she could make a difference.

She would get involved whenever she saw anything that...

..that, for most people, would be quite alarming.

You know, she would...

For example, her heart went out to a lot of the young people

who had been caught up in gangs or...

..or knife crime.

We've had a number of gun crimes and knife crimes in this locality,

so the challenge is about how we get our young people

to believe in themselves and to stay away from

the peer pressure that encourages them.

How can I help you to be stronger?

But those weren't the only issues.

Some members of the church were not welcoming

and made their views known to Rose.

The Lord be with you.

She told me that they were rather put out that I was the priest,

accepted as the priest there.

And I had picked up some undercurrents, so I said to her,

"While you are putting your cards on the table,

"would you like to put all your cards on the table?

"Has it got anything to do with the fact that I am black?"

And she said, "Well, frankly, yes."

So I took a deep breath and I said,

"Well, now that you've put your cards on the table,

"let me put mine on the table.

"I have just arrived here, I have no intention of leaving.

"I am very content with myself as a woman.

"I am very content with myself as being black,

"so you or anyone else who...

"If you are unhappy with me

"because I am a woman and because I am black, you are free to go."

They didn't leave immediately.

They stayed and made life difficult.

-Ohh!

-I recall them...

You know, they would read,

then they wouldn't receive communion from me.

Then they wouldn't do this, then they wouldn't do that.

These were early days for women in ministry.

There would be some people who would actually think,

"Well, do we really want a woman in leadership in this position?

"Do we want a woman,

"do we want a black woman in leadership in that position?"

When things are challenging, you go back to your roots.

One of the songs that I used to sing as a child was

Jesus Be A Fence All Around Me Every Day.

# Jesus be a fence

# All around me every day

# Jesus, I want you to protect me

# As I travel along life's way

# Lord, I know you can Lord, I know you will

# Fight the battle if I keep still

# Be a fence all around me every day. #

-Wonderful!

-I used to sing that song.

That was my prayer, that was my prayer.

I sang it day and night,

walking along the street, wherever I was.

And he was.

Eventually they left.

Eventually they left, and do you know what?

The church grew.

The church grew and the church flourished.

I know that by the time I left to go to university at 18,

the church was packed, packed to the rafters some days, you know,

we had to go up into the balcony and use that

and they weren't just people visiting,

they were regular churchgoers, families,

that would come every Sunday and were full of praise for my mum.

And one of the tasks Rose had to take on was to preside over

a rather an usual service once a year

in one of the two churches she looked after.

Holy Trinity Dalston is known as The Clowns' Church.

-ARCHIVE:

-Each year, hundreds of clowns from across the UK

attend a church service in east London

to celebrate the gift of joy and laughter.

All the clowns gather and they gather in their outfits,

you know, with their faces and the clothing that they wear as clowns.

Someone would bring rabbits every year as well

and we'd have a service that was full of laughter.

CLOWNS CHEER

I have very fond memories of those.

It is fun, it is full of laughter, it is full of joy,

it is a moment, I guess,

for people to stop thinking about hardships

or whatever their stresses are and just to laugh.

They are very unique, I've not heard of anything else like it.

So they are very special.

Rose's energy and forthright approach were getting her noticed.

In 2007, she was chosen to become

one of the Chaplains to Her Majesty the Queen.

How do you get the job of Queen's Chaplain?

She has 36 of you, I think?

Yes, I'm not quite sure whether all the posts are filled.

I just happened to have a phone call one day.

I picked up the phone and it was the Bishop of Guildford.

He said, "Her Majesty would love you to become one of her chaplains,"

and I said, "You're joking, aren't you?"

And he said, "No."

I was really over the moon for her

because, as a black person as well,

to be Chaplain to the Queen I think was very good.

We would be ringing Jamaica to people who knew Rose

and saying, "Guess what, guess what!"

Had you met the Queen?

I had done things in services where she had been present, yes.

-Ah-ha!

-Yes.

-So she had spotted you?

She had spotted me and, I believe, she had also

been listening to me on Pause For Thought, I later learned, yes.

So, it really was her personal pick.

-Yes, yes.

-Wow!

And then what is the job description?

Well, it's not an onerous task. We all...

Her Majesty has a number of private chapels,

which does not come under the Church of England, so to speak.

They are what is known as Royal Peculiars,

so they come under her direct area of responsibility

and so we take turns preaching in those chapels,

some lead the acts of worship there, etc.

So it is not an onerous task and we all get to go to the garden party.

As the Queen and Prince Philip got to my parents,

I noticed my mum turning around and pointing to me and my sister

and Prince Philip looking over like this

and saying, "Goodness, they are absolutely ginormous,"

very loudly, and we probably did stand out

because I'm 5'10" and my sister is six foot,

so we are quite tall.

Have you had a chance to have a personal conversation with her?

Oh, yes, oh, yes.

I was invited to Windsor Castle for...

My husband said I shouldn't call it a sleepover,

but everybody will understand what a sleepover is,

so, yes, and so you get a chance to speak with a small...

There's only a very small group of us.

She is an amazing woman

and I see her first and foremost as a woman -

a mother, grandmother, our Queen -

and someone who has faith and who is not afraid to express that faith

to talk about her faith, which she does every year

in her Christmas messages and, clearly, one can see...

and certainly from my perspective,

can see that it is a faith that she holds on to.

It means something to her and that is important.

In 2010, Rosa's profile was to rise even further

with a ground-breaking appointment.

She was the 79th - and first female -

Chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons.

The role of the Speaker's Chaplain

is to conduct prayer services in the chamber,

prior to the start of our normal parliamentary business

on every sitting day,

to conduct a variety of other prayer services

during the course of the year that will arise,

which ordinarily would be held in the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft.

Beyond that, the chaplain quite regularly presides over

and conducts marriage services and christenings.

And now, here you are, not only the Queen's Chaplain,

but also the Chaplain of the House of Commons.

It is amazing.

Erm...

I'm told that 97 people applied for the role

and six of us were shortlisted.

My mum is very different to the previous people

that have worked at the House of Commons as chaplain there,

just from her appearance -

she is a woman, she is black

and she's very different from

the sort of probably middle-class people

that have worked there previously.

I think she has a lot to offer there.

Hi, good morning!

Good to see you.

One of the things that I have a really special memory of

is when I first got elected

and went into the chamber and there was Rose,

doing the prayers before the day's business started.

It was incredibly moving

because I hadn't realised that we had a chaplain

and I also hadn't realised that it was a black woman,

so it was a real surprise.

Almighty God...

I felt I must say when she applied for the role,

that the fact that she'd got gritty urban experience

as a parish priest in Hackney,

one of the poorest boroughs in the country,

was a big positive.

She's got bucket-loads of positive energy that she sort of gives you.

It's a bit like having your favourite teacher in Parliament,

you know, who just inspires you and makes you feel great about yourself.

But initially, not everyone within the portals of Westminster

welcomed Rose's appointment.

I think there were probably those in Parliament who were very sceptical.

I think one of the most hurtful things during that whole time

was when the media in particular kept saying

that it was the Speaker being politically correct,

why he appointed me.

You mean positive discrimination? He needed diversity.

That really, really upset me.

I should think so.

I think it's fair to say that, seven years on,

whatever the initial scepticism in some quarters,

Rose has cultivated magnificent relationships

with all who work in the House

and, in my experience, I've never heard an ill word spoken of her.

People think she does the job magnificently.

We value her, we welcome her,

we feel reinforced and supported by her.

She can be a well-known figure

and sometimes a counsellor and a friend

to people living in a very stressed, high-powered existence,

and I think Rose has got herself more visible and more involved

than any chaplain that we've had,

at least AS INVOLVED as any I remember.

And she is a very popular figure in and around the House of Commons.

Rose's tenure as chaplain has been during some traumatic times.

In March this year, four people died after a terror attack

when a car drove into pedestrians on Westminster Bridge,

and PC Keith Palmer, who was guarding Parliament,

was stabbed to death.

You've been handed so many difficult things while you've been here.

I mean, the beginning of this year, the terrible atrocity

that happened on the bridge,

which is just 100 yards through that window there,

and Keith Palmer, the policeman who was killed,

-someone that you knew.

-Yes.

-NEWS REPORTER:

-After crashing the car,

he forced his way into the precincts of Parliament

and stabbed an unarmed police officer...

That sense that the front line of defence and protection of this place

and all who come here had been violated...

..in the most appalling way, was something very difficult for us

to accept.

And Rose, instinctively, was there on hand

because people were very shaken, people were

personally frightened and people were very shaken.

GUNS FIRING

The sound of gunfire replacing the bells of Big Ben.

Go, go, go!

Move yourself. Go.

The centre of our government, normally a safe place.

That horror that must have gone through this building, that

I know went through the country, was terrible. Where were you?

Were you here?

I was actually here in Parliament when we were suddenly called,

you know, asked to go and gather in one particular area

because we were locking down. They were coming in.

They had to search, there was some confusion,

they didn't know whether more than one person had entered

the estate and where they were, so they had to search everywhere,

literally, to make sure that there was nobody else here.

And inside Parliament, lockdown.

It was very emotional watching the news

and seeing what was happening, and knowing that she was there.

I'd imagine that she was able to offer support to those

around her, you know, whilst they're waiting to find out more news.

A car, a weapon.

Ploughing through members of the public on Westminster Bridge.

Normally a tourist spot. Today, a site of danger.

I was eventually told by an officer, who the message had come through,

and it was a real tragedy.

I think I described it as evil having visited us.

An act of evil having visited us.

She was incredibly reassuring in an environment that was

incredibly traumatic and febrile.

Most MPs had to deal with their staff - many MPs had to

and I did, too -

had to deal with their staff having witnessed what was happening

and the trauma that went with that.

Famously, you've been saying, "I do not engage with negativity.

"I will keep my path." Then, on that day, you had to.

So, how did you manage to fill your mind

with something at least positive?

Well, it's again by not focusing on the act of evil,

but focusing on the acts of goodness that was

so visible in spite of that tragedy, in spite of that evil.

To have your ambulance staff literally caring for the person,

that's an amazing image to see.

Caring for the person who perpetrated that act of evil.

Rose is able to see faith and to feel faith and to be fortified

by faith in every circumstance, and in addition to the most natural

and explicit condemnation of an appalling atrocity...

..she saw her faith at work in the way that people responded.

What we want to say to the world, what

we want to say to those who are looking on is,

this has happened to us but we are not defined by that act of evil.

Instead, we are defined by the act of goodness.

The acts of goodness.

We're defined by acts of forgiveness, we're

defined by acts of love.

Because if we stay in that place where the evil is,

then we are going to be destroyed.

She thought nothing of sitting in the chapel through the night

when other people had gone, when the focus of attention had shifted.

Rose was there in her place, doing, as she saw it, her duty.

The shocking attack on Westminster came less than a year after

parliamentarians had been rocked by the murder of MP Jo Cox,

in her own constituency.

The place where Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death.

In Yorkshire, Rose joined the Speaker of the House of Commons

and political leaders to pay their respects.

You described her as a prophet,

another life-affirming positive message in the middle of horror.

-Yes.

-What did you mean by that?

That was a huge tragedy again that did not just clearly hit her family,

a young mother, a wife, but the community that she served

and the community here.

That was a very traumatic time for a lot of people here

and, you know, the place came together very much and Rose,

as the chaplain, played a very important role, I think,

in providing that reassurance, listening to people.

Sometimes people would stop by and chat to her -

and I certainly did - and talk about Jo.

Although her frame was tiny, she was huge.

We have a saying in the Caribbean - certainly in Jamaica -

mi likkle but mi Tallawah.

Meaning, I am little but I'm strong.

And for me, that was her.

So she made a difference, a huge difference

and all the things that she stood for.

The thing that surprises me time and time

again as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more

united and have far more in common that than that which divides us.

That's a huge message for us to learn.

Candles in Parliament Square tonight

to remember a politician with a spark.

She held services at the Houses of Parliament for

anybody that wanted to remember Jo.

It's difficult to know how these things affect my mum

because she doesn't... She doesn't show that she's affected by it.

She just carries on going and carries on thinking

about everybody else and making sure that she gives as much as she can.

Having her support at the time of the murder of Jo Cox

and having her support at the time of the murder of Keith Palmer,

having her support personally, but having her support for all

of my colleagues, having her support institutionally, was of the essence.

But it's not just during the times of high-profile events

that Rose comes to the fore.

She always has an eye on MPs facing difficult times in their lives, too.

The most touching thing she did as far as I personally was concerned,

was when I lost my wife, a little over two years ago,

Rose travelled all the way to Nottingham,

turned up at her funeral amongst the guests.

Now, I didn't know she was coming.

I hadn't invited her because I didn't think

she'd be able to come all the way to Nottingham.

She probably had met my wife once or twice,

but I thought that was a very nice gesture.

That obviously went way beyond anything to do with her duties

as Chaplain to the House.

She just wanted to express her sympathy with me and my family.

Well, that, I think, was a very nice, touching thing to do.

The personal and professional lives of MPs can also

impact on Rose in very different ways.

You know, politicians are always being accused of something or

other, whether it's fiddling expenses or backhanders or...

Now, this sexual harassment thing. How do you see the...?

You know, when I...

When I was in Hackney, I was constantly being told that the

police were racist.

And there's a context of that, but I was constantly being

told they're racist, they're racist.

And my reaction to that was that the police were not an alien

group from some other planet but that they were a microcosm

for the rest of the community.

Politicians are not a group of aliens from another planet either.

They're ordinary human beings, even though sometimes, you know,

the way they are set up, the way sometimes they are often put on a

pedestal and it's knocked away from them and they fall

and they fall really hard, they're ordinary human beings.

They have weaknesses like everybody else in the community.

Of course, there is an expectation that they are in high office

and we expect them, in the same way that the clergy, you know,

you are expected,

certain expectation that you will behave in an honourable way.

But they're human beings and, you know,

they are fallible human beings.

But that makes them understandable but it's still not acceptable.

Oh, it never is acceptable.

That behaviour, whether it is expenses or

whether it is harassment, it is never acceptable.

I appreciate that...

So what of the future for Rose?

She's already risen to a role at the heart of the British establishment.

Three years ago, the Church of England Synod finally

approved women bishops with existing church leaders doing a victory jig.

# We are marching in the light of God

# We are marching in the light of God.#

Is the next step for Rose to become a bishop?

So, when your name is bandied about,

there must be part of you that thinks, I think that would be...

that would be nice if it's the right thing and I felt it was right.

If it was the right thing, then hopefully

I would know that it was right and not just me, but whoever is...

-Uh-huh.

-Yes, would know that is right.

-So not just your vanity.

-Absolutely.

In a purely selfish sense, I very much hope that Rose

stays as Speaker's Chaplain for a very long time to come.

-Come on in.

-Good morning, Rose.

-Good morning.

She is a terrific support to me

and a terrific support to the House of Commons.

-So how has your week been this last week?

-Everything's gone wrong.

Baby-sitter's been ill, the children have been ill, I was ill.

That said, for her sake and for the wider

cause of the Church of England and even, dare I say it, its

potential revival, I very much hope that she climbs the church ladder.

Whatever lies ahead for Rose, those close to her believe

the challenges she faced while growing up have steeled her

to face the future, however that may unfold.

I think the resilience that she shows has probably got a lot

to do with how she...

With her growing up in Jamaica in terms of, you know,

not having her parents,

her mum moving away and then losing her sister,

who she was separated from when they were living in different cities.

So I think she's always had this attitude of, right, you know,

this is your life, you need to just keep moving forwards

and working towards what you want.

She has been a towering presence morally, spiritually,

humanely, and I think that she feels that my ministry

is my ministry and I'm here to serve.

No matter how difficult the situation she's been in,

she's never doubted that level of faith in God that she's had.

And that's been a real strengthening and a help for her in life.

Hello.

# Once in royal David's city...#

Advent. What does it mean to you?

Advent is about getting ready for the Christ's child,

the coming of God incarnate.

God becoming man and dwelling.

God becoming human and dwelling in our midst.

-The Lord be with you.

-And also with you.

It's an active preparation, getting ready,

getting one's soul ready, getting one's physical space ready, just

getting ready, intuned, because something is going to happen.

-Are you ready?

-Absolutely ready.

One more Sunday to go and we'll be there. So, yes - very, very ready.

Christmas is about love. Christmas is about sharing.

Christmas is about serving.

Christmas is about giving, it is not about what we receive.

It's not about us.

Rose, I am very grateful. This is fantastic.

Stand up, because I want to give you a hug and just say

-happy Christmas because...

-Thank you.

-..this has been marvellous.

-It is coming.

It is coming and everything that you do,

thank you so much indeed for sharing.

It's been a real pleasure, thank you.

Well, I began today wondering how Rose had kept her strength

and courage up through all that life has thrown at her,

and I think the answer is that she doesn't engage with

troubles around her unless they're worth engaging with.

And, funnily enough, that disengagement has opened the road

for her to get on with life and ignore the troublesome stuff

that takes her focus off where she's going and what she wants to

do, how she wants it to be in life.

And, if anything, that's the best Christmas present perhaps that she

could give us.

When things are troubling you, don't engage,

move on with the things that are important.

So I'm wishing you a very happy Christmas.