Browse content similar to Episode 1. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Hello, and welcome. This is the 2013 General Assembly of the Church | :00:14. | :00:24. | |
:00:24. | :00:36. | ||
Like it or not, and some do not like it, much of the assembly's | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
time over the last few years has been spent talking about sex. There | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
has been considerable disagreement amongst the different assemblies of | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
ministers and elders who gather here every year, particularly about | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
the subject of same-sex relationships. That affects real | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
life. We spoke to a couple of Church of Scotland members whose | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
responses to their own sexuality illustrates the division within the | :01:00. | :01:10. | |
:01:10. | :01:18. | ||
Douglas Robertson is a church development worker in Glasgow. He | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
is homosexual by orientation. But believes the Bible requires him to | :01:23. | :01:31. | |
be severed it. -- beat celibate. The debate matters to me, because | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
it concerns the authority of the word of God. The entire | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
intellectual knowledge of our word of God is from scripture. The God | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
we worship is revealed on the Bible, and the process of interpretation | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
is about understanding this Bob -- this God. The Bible must be read | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
and understood on its own terms. The problem is many people approach | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
scripture with a preconceived notion of who God is. This informs | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
their reading. So the parts that fit with their image of God are | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
accepted and affirmed. The parts that do not fit, the parts that are | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
more difficult to understand, or that on not palatable, get written | :02:09. | :02:17. | |
off. This pick and choose approach makes a mockery of the thing that | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
the Bible has any kind of meaningful authority. In the | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
God. All things were made through him and without him was not | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
anything made that was made. I have invested considerable time | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
researching what the Bible have to say about, sexuality. It does not | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
speak about orientation, only practice. It does not speak about | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
it often but the teaching is clear. The Bible presents homosexual | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
activity as a wrong choice. Now, I fully understand the challenge of | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
this. I have a homosexual orientation myself. I have chosen | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
to live a celibate, on a chord with my sexuality. To live with | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
integrity according to the Word of God. It is difficult and there may | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
not always get it right, but I know first-hand that got honours those | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
that honour him. Doing hid -- doing it his way I can say that for the | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
first time in my life I no genuine contentment. Having said that, I | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
fully understand and would appreciate and never condemn those | :03:26. | :03:36. | |
:03:36. | :03:43. | ||
Troon, on the west coast, is home to Maureen, who is lesbian and | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
Christian. She does not believe the Bible condemns the expression of | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
her sexuality and is often angry when she hears the kind of language | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
which are sometimes used against gay Christians. When you have words | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
levelled at you like homosexuality is sinful and in the same breath, | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
they mention Beeston reality and paedophilia and then they mention | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
her the sector -- bestiality and then a mention homosexuality, these | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
things very much had. I like the church at the national level to be | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
very brave and face up to this and take a big step forward and say, | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
this is not an issue that we should be spending time on. There are much | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
more important things will the Church to be dealing with. I would | :04:29. | :04:38. | |
like somebody to stand up, and say to assembly and say, look, let's | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
stop this nonsense. Knock some heads together and let's move on. | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
Let's get on with it. Your sexuality, what your sexuality is, | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
if you are a minister in the pulpit, it does not matter if you are gay, | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
straight, bisexual, it doesn't matter. It is what is in your hat - | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
- part that counts. Does she believe that all securities will | :04:59. | :05:09. | |
:05:09. | :05:10. | ||
eventually be -- sexuality is will eventually be accepted? There are | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
already churches who are very open, inclusive and affirming, and they | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
have people of all the books in the congregation. Right across the | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
social spectrum and sexualities. They are very quiet because they | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
just get on with it, they are very dignified and respectful of human | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
dignity and we get on with it. It would be great if their voices were | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
heard in much the same manner as some of the more traditional voices | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
that had been over the past year or so. The theological Commission on | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
same-sex relationships and the ministry had taken two years to | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
produce a report intended to help Commissioners decide on whether | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
people in same-sex relationships could be ordained. We come out of | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
the report of our theological Commission. I know I do not have to | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
remind you that we listen and we here with love and grace and | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
understanding, because I know that is evident in this general assembly. | :06:12. | :06:19. | |
It comes to us today to discern the will of God for the Church of | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
Scotland. The issues addressed today are those addressed not only | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
in our small corner, rather they are ones that got right across the | :06:29. | :06:38. | |
face of the church. That is why our decision-making today, within this | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
General Assembly, truly matters. It matters for us, but not only for us. | :06:46. | :06:56. | |
:06:56. | :06:56. | ||
It matters for the whole church. Will it wisely and well. Mary never | :06:56. | :07:06. | |
:07:06. | :07:07. | ||
forget we are in the midst of much kill. We are -- or much ill. The | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
meaning of human identity, our own it into the, what it means to be | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
made in the image of God. What it means to be part of the Church, the | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
Church of Scotland, it is now in the Providence of God. The report | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
offered two opposite options. The Church could either vote to | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
maintain the status quo and the Tote the ordination of anyone in a | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
practising same-sex relation, -- veto the ordination, or it could | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
accept gay ordination while allowing any conflict -- | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
confirmation which could not countenance a homosexual minister | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
to opt out. A third option was now on the table. A few days ago, a | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
counter motion was proposed saying a hall acceptance of gay ordination. | :07:58. | :08:06. | |
In society at large, opinion polls show an ever-increasing majority | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
view questions of sexuality as somewhat inconsequential in the | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
modern day, in assessing people for employment, so expect to walk from | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
cheque. -- 6 Thatcher or friendship. This is because we have new and | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
greater knowledge about sexuality and how it arises, and we can | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
rejoice in the gift that makes us the way we are. It is indeed, I | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
believe, time for our church to lift this barrier. And allow those | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
of single sex orientation in committed, proven relationships of | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
civil partnership, into our Ministry. From Kent concluded his | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
powerful contribution to the debate by surprisingly withdrawing his | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
mission altogether and supporting the theological Commission's | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
revisionist option. There was a further surprise to come. Last | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
year's Moderator proposed a 4th option. It represented a compromise | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
by the traditionalists. If the Church were to maintain its | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
historic and current doctrine and practice in relation to human | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
sexuality, that is that sexual activity should be confined to | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
unmarried heterosexual couples, than any -- are then in the | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
congregation which chose to ordain a gay minister could so do. I speak | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
for people in this room who it is even painful to talk of these | :09:31. | :09:38. | |
things. We might be wrong. So we need to be gracious and listened to | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
be worked and listened to others, and be prepared to move a little. | :09:42. | :09:50. | |
And so I ask that you take that step with me, and at a ask that you | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
vote for my mission. Because it gives everyone what they want, but | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
it will keep us together. It will not be what everybody designers, | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
because we will all in some way be hurting. -- everybody desires, but | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
we will have moved a little bit and confounded the critics that we | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
cannot stay together as God's people. And so finally, late | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
yesterday afternoon, the three options were debated. I believe | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
this is the time for the Church, particularly traditionalists like | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
me, to concede to allow others who disagree space to express that | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
disagreement. In the life and witness of individual conned -- | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
congregation's and in the wider church. My reading of the Gospels | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
is that Jesus did not regard all biblical text as being written in | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
stone. Many major changes in the Church's thinking were brought | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
about in the last 200 years by the interpretation again of scripture | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
in the light of Christ's example and his teaching. I think of the | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
abolition of slavery, the ordination of women. The acceptance | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
of inter-racial marriages. In the debate that took place in all these | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
instances, biblical texts were quoted by those who were opposed to | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
change. I think I am correct when I say that today, only a very small | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
minority would want to turn the clock back with regard to any of | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
these matters. This is our opportunity as an assembly to send | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
a clear message that everyone is welcome, but every one is loved by | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
God. That everyone can be used and called by God in his service in | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
this church. It is not that we will be out of step with everyone. | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
Absolutely not. It is that we are standing up for principles that we | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
have heard earlier on today of justice, justice for the people of | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
God, for the ministers of God, for the ministers in this dumb -- | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
denomination, for all those involved in the ministry. This is | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
our moment. Not next year, not the year after. It is a moment to start | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
the ball rolling. Today, nobody, at least within this church for the | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
least that slavery is acceptable or that women are second-class cysts - | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
- citizens. And few people today still cling to the idea that | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
homosexuality is a choice. If you do, ask yourself when you decided | :12:38. | :12:47. | |
to be straight. Rather, gay and lesbian people, like all | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
heterosexual, are made by God in the image of God and are loved by | :12:51. | :12:59. | |
God. Equals, all of us. Equal in the eyes of God. So let us not put | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
ourselves in the position where in 10 or 20 years' time people are | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
saying of us, how on earth could anyone consider that gates or | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
lesbians were somehow second class to citizens on not worthy to be | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
treated as equals? All, why on earth did it take so long for | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
enlightenment to come? There is a level of incredulity in many parts | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
of the wider Christian church, as they wonder, what on earth we are | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
thinking of. We have a theological Commission who had said to us that | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
this is a lifestyle which does not honour God, which is not promoted | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
in the Bible as being a good way to live. Not orientation, but activity. | :13:48. | :13:55. | |
And yet, we are thinking of turning our backs on scripture and voting | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
this way, of changing the tradition that this denomination has had for | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
many, many years, and throwing it out because of what society is | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
telling us. My father, my grandfather served as elders in the | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
Church of Scotland before I did. I was converted to the Church of | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
Scotland through a summer mission Cheam -- team. My children were | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
brought up in the Church of Scotland. Both of my sons, I am | :14:23. | :14:31. | |
thrilled to say, are active in their Crich -- Christian witness | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
and work. Both of them now find that the only way to exercise their | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
faith is out with the Church of Scotland, because they see the | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
Church of Scotland as going down a path that turns its back on | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
scripture. I would like to urge the assembly and commissioners present | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
here to consider mission in their deliberations today, and mission to | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
adults who were under 40, and I'd only just fit into that bracket | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
myself. There are a number of people who worship regularly with | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
us and we regularly offer inquirers courses to discuss issues of faith. | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
I feel I need to make some views heard from those discussions but I | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
have had. We have had one particular woman whose face was | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
growing, who had come to a strong faith, but he felt she could not | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
join the Church of Scotland because of the traditional view and | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
perception on same-sex lectureships. To her it was a block and it did | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
not match her experience of the compassionate and unconditional | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
love of God and Christ. For her, she was not prepared to join the | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
church and make her vows and grow further in her faith because of the | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
position of the church on the subject. For me, it is personal. We | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
have got bigger things to look at, but for me there is nothing bigger | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
as to whether I am accepted in this cheque or not. From 1994, it has | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
been debated and am I accepted in this church or not because I am a | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
gay women? It undermines my very call, it undermines my place with | :16:13. | :16:23. | |
:16:23. | :16:23. | ||
good. It is now time to decide. So that those of us who are in this | :16:23. | :16:33. | |
:16:33. | :16:43. | ||
opportunity to be able to contribute to this the discussion when this | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
discussion first emerged a number of years ago, our General Assembly | :16:50. | :17:00. | |
:17:00. | :17:01. | ||
received it with a great degree of sadness and also heart searching. As | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
we spoke earlier about our relationship and the significance of | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
that relationship, with sadness I do have to convey to this Assembly that | :17:13. | :17:21. | |
if the Assembly follows a particular trajectory, has described in the | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
revisionist approach, then that will cause serious tension between our | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
two denominations, our churches. That is a hard and, perhaps, sad | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
thing to say. But it will cause us great heart searching. And, I think, | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
fundamentally, it causes us great heart searching because we find it | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
hard to comprehend how the spirit of God would lead a church away from | :17:50. | :17:58. | |
what we understand the clear teaching of scripture to be. This is | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
a profoundly theological discussion and about the nature of ministry. | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
Theological, it's about the nature of God. A God who made us, a God who | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
loves us, a God who created us in miss own image, unique and precious | :18:12. | :18:20. | |
in his eyes. How could we then believe that this God would call one | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
and not another because one has one form of inherent sexuality and is in | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
one form of a loving and committed relationship, and not call another | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
who is in another kind of relationship because they have | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
another God-created sexuality? During these four years, while | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
controversy has been hanging over the Church of Scotland, as has been | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
said already in this Assembly, we have lost many people, we have lost | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
congregations, we have lost ministers, with he have lost members | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
and we have lost a lot of money. While many other congregations and | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
many more individual members of congregations have really been | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
hanging on by the skin of their teeth, hoping against hope, and | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
praying indeed, that the church will not only make up its mind, once and | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
for all where it stands, but that we'll make up its mind to stand by | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
that which it constantly professes to be it issual prepare rule of | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
faith and life. Because, moderator, I want to suggest to the Assembly | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
that is really what is at stake. Much of the discussion of course and | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
media interest has focussed on issues relating to homosexual | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
practice. That is the presenting issue, not the basic issue. The | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
basic issue is whether this church stands by the teaching of scriptures | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
or whether we think that we know better than the God who, as the | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
church down the centuries has believed, inspired the writing of | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
the scriptureses. I can't tell you how difficult it is for me to hear, | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
as we heard just a few moments ago, somebody saying that those of us who | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
are revisionist do have that view because we want to fit in with | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
society. Give me a break, disagree with my position if you want, at | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
least believe that I'm taking this seriously. I believe that God's | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
doing a new thing and leading us to a new understanding. For all the | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
people quoting of the Bible, I am remind of the story of Peter seeing | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
the sheet come down with the unclean food and being asked to eat and | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
Peter said - lord I can't eat this, this is unclean. Where was he | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
getting it from? It was God's laws. Here is God tearing up the rule book | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
and God saying - don't call unclean what I'm calling clean. God was | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
bringing Peter to a new understanding. God is always | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
bringing us to new understandings and inviting more people in. | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
Scriptures says an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Jesus says | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
turn another cheek. That is both new and different. Sam 134 says we must | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
be so angry with our enemies we must take our babies by the ankles and | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
smash their brains against the rocks. Then Jesus says, love your | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
enemy. Both new, and different. It's the love of Jesus that makes the | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
difference. I conclude with something that happened with me in | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
South Africa. I had an elder, probably a stronger believer than I | :21:35. | :21:43. | |
can ever be, his son was gay and he was (inaudible) too. For weeks he | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
couldn't sleep or eat. He came to me crying saying, I'm passionate about | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
the work and I love my son. What should I do? If I follow the Bible | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
it says I should put my son to death. Jesus says, maybe I should | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
try to love. I feel if I just love my son I'm going to betray the word. | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
I asked him a simple question. Does Jesus love your son? He said, yes. I | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
said, there is your answer. Father and son were reunited. The father | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
stayed straight and the son stayed gay. But they are still held | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
together in the love of Jesus. ago, like many people, I thought I | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
didn't know any gay people. I really believed that until I moved to the | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
United States of America and suddenly I was in a church where | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
there were gay people in many pews. I learned so much from that | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
experience that year living there, came back and saw the world with | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
different eyes. Some of the best ministers of the word, some of the | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
best ministers of the Goss spell that I have met and worked with in | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
the United States, in South Africa, in Ghana, in North India and here in | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
Scotland and in these islands are gay people who happen, they are | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
ministers of the Goss spell who happen tonne -- to be gay. | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
compromise won the day. If the church maintains it's traditional | :23:25. | :23:32. | |
opposition to gay ministers. The legislation to enable it to happen | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
will be presented to next year's General Assembly. I think the way | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
the church voted today meant that it affirmed again that the | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
traditionalist point of view is the fall back position of the church. | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
That is where we are. We recognise today that the church is broad in | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
its understanding of this particular issue. People are passionate on both | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
sides about this. Isn't this going to be seen by the wider world as yet | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
another deferral? I don't think it's deferral of a decision. I think we | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
have made a significant decision today to say that the traditionalist | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
orthodox view that the church had all these years has been affirmed, | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
but yet we recognise that some congregations may wish to opt-out of | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
that. I suppose I was disappointed the church didn't take its chance to | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
affirm once and for all ministers in same-sex partnerships I'm pragmatic | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
enough to realise what the church voted for was a step forward and | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
something for unity, which is really important of course. I think, | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
hopefully, down-the-line it will take some time, but down-the-line it | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
will start to make some changes and some steps forward. Pragmatic is a | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
good word because the counter motions got a bit of everything in | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
it. Can it work 1234 I think it can, as long as everyone is willing to | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
make it work. I think that is the key thing now is we move forward | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
there has to be a lot of understanding and a lot of trust and | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
the ability to make it work and wanting to make it work. I think | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
it's so important that the church does hold the unity. If this is the | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
way to do it, then I think it just means that every side of the | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
argument has to now work to make it happen and that is Assembly level as | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
well as press per Tory and congregations level. We have work to | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
do to ensure that proposal is workable around the principles that | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
were set out and we will have to look very closely at the draft | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
legislation next year. There is is still a long way to go. It will take | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
another two years of careful drafting and discussion before we | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
can get to a stage of implementing the proposal that was put forward | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
yesterday. I think there are concerns about the equalities | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
legislation and how we protect people from civil action and the | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
legal experts will have to look at all of that again very carefully. | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
Could you unwrap that a bit and explain what that means? Well, it | :25:58. | :26:05. | |
was clear from the supplementary report this year that the church had | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
entered into quite detailed discussions with the Equalities | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
Commission and had obtained a letter of comfort, which explained how the | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
church could set out a regime in which there might be a kind of dual | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
practice or mixed economy with neither side vulnerable to | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
litigation through the civil courts. That will remain an anxiety at the | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
next stage when we have to produce further legislation according to the | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
principles of this new version of the mixed economy. The vote for | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
Albert Bogle's counter motion wasn't unanimous. Do you think it | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
represented the settled will the of the Assembly? It represents the | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
settled will of the commissioners this year. Another set of | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
commissioners will require to vote on it next year and the press per | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
tearies in the interim after which there will be a further General | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
Assembly which will require to vote on it. I think what is significant | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
is that the successful motion yesterday came from the more | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
traditionalist wing of the church. That may actually result in it | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
gathering broad support over the next couple of years. So, do you | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
think the unity and peace of the Kirk is secure? I think for the | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
moment it is. There will be some people who will remain unhappy and | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
we may see some erosion of members and ministers. We have already | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
witnessed that over the last year or two. I wouldn't like to predict that | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
that will suddenly cease, but I don't think we are going to see | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
widespread disaffection at this stage, at least I hope not. Do you | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
think it will go anyway to addressing something I know you are | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
very worried about, which is the recruitment or application of | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
candidates for training for the Ministry? I hope that it might. We | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
have seen a very sharp decline, almost a disappearance of candidates | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
over the last two or three years. I know, talking to ministers of lead | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
leading congregations, that is not unconnected with this particular | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
issue. I would hope that if the church can find a way forward on | :28:20. | :28:28. | |
this issue and can continue to embrace its important evangelical | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
constituent we might see the return of evangelical candidates for | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
ministerial training in the near future. There is a lot more being | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
debated at the Assembly than sex, we will be reporting on some of the | :28:40. | :28:45. |