Episode 1 General Assembly


Episode 1

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Hello, and welcome. This is the 2013 General Assembly of the Church

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Like it or not, and some do not like it, much of the assembly's

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time over the last few years has been spent talking about sex. There

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has been considerable disagreement amongst the different assemblies of

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ministers and elders who gather here every year, particularly about

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the subject of same-sex relationships. That affects real

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life. We spoke to a couple of Church of Scotland members whose

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responses to their own sexuality illustrates the division within the

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Douglas Robertson is a church development worker in Glasgow. He

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is homosexual by orientation. But believes the Bible requires him to

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be severed it. -- beat celibate. The debate matters to me, because

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it concerns the authority of the word of God. The entire

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intellectual knowledge of our word of God is from scripture. The God

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we worship is revealed on the Bible, and the process of interpretation

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is about understanding this Bob -- this God. The Bible must be read

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and understood on its own terms. The problem is many people approach

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scripture with a preconceived notion of who God is. This informs

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their reading. So the parts that fit with their image of God are

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accepted and affirmed. The parts that do not fit, the parts that are

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more difficult to understand, or that on not palatable, get written

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off. This pick and choose approach makes a mockery of the thing that

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the Bible has any kind of meaningful authority. In the

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beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was

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God. All things were made through him and without him was not

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anything made that was made. I have invested considerable time

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researching what the Bible have to say about, sexuality. It does not

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speak about orientation, only practice. It does not speak about

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it often but the teaching is clear. The Bible presents homosexual

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activity as a wrong choice. Now, I fully understand the challenge of

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this. I have a homosexual orientation myself. I have chosen

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to live a celibate, on a chord with my sexuality. To live with

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integrity according to the Word of God. It is difficult and there may

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not always get it right, but I know first-hand that got honours those

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that honour him. Doing hid -- doing it his way I can say that for the

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first time in my life I no genuine contentment. Having said that, I

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fully understand and would appreciate and never condemn those

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Troon, on the west coast, is home to Maureen, who is lesbian and

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Christian. She does not believe the Bible condemns the expression of

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her sexuality and is often angry when she hears the kind of language

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which are sometimes used against gay Christians. When you have words

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levelled at you like homosexuality is sinful and in the same breath,

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they mention Beeston reality and paedophilia and then they mention

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her the sector -- bestiality and then a mention homosexuality, these

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things very much had. I like the church at the national level to be

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very brave and face up to this and take a big step forward and say,

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this is not an issue that we should be spending time on. There are much

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more important things will the Church to be dealing with. I would

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like somebody to stand up, and say to assembly and say, look, let's

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stop this nonsense. Knock some heads together and let's move on.

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Let's get on with it. Your sexuality, what your sexuality is,

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if you are a minister in the pulpit, it does not matter if you are gay,

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straight, bisexual, it doesn't matter. It is what is in your hat -

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- part that counts. Does she believe that all securities will

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eventually be -- sexuality is will eventually be accepted? There are

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already churches who are very open, inclusive and affirming, and they

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have people of all the books in the congregation. Right across the

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social spectrum and sexualities. They are very quiet because they

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just get on with it, they are very dignified and respectful of human

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dignity and we get on with it. It would be great if their voices were

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heard in much the same manner as some of the more traditional voices

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that had been over the past year or so. The theological Commission on

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same-sex relationships and the ministry had taken two years to

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produce a report intended to help Commissioners decide on whether

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people in same-sex relationships could be ordained. We come out of

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the report of our theological Commission. I know I do not have to

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remind you that we listen and we here with love and grace and

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understanding, because I know that is evident in this general assembly.

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It comes to us today to discern the will of God for the Church of

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Scotland. The issues addressed today are those addressed not only

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in our small corner, rather they are ones that got right across the

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face of the church. That is why our decision-making today, within this

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General Assembly, truly matters. It matters for us, but not only for us.

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It matters for the whole church. Will it wisely and well. Mary never

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forget we are in the midst of much kill. We are -- or much ill. The

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meaning of human identity, our own it into the, what it means to be

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made in the image of God. What it means to be part of the Church, the

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Church of Scotland, it is now in the Providence of God. The report

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offered two opposite options. The Church could either vote to

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maintain the status quo and the Tote the ordination of anyone in a

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practising same-sex relation, -- veto the ordination, or it could

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accept gay ordination while allowing any conflict --

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confirmation which could not countenance a homosexual minister

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to opt out. A third option was now on the table. A few days ago, a

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counter motion was proposed saying a hall acceptance of gay ordination.

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In society at large, opinion polls show an ever-increasing majority

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view questions of sexuality as somewhat inconsequential in the

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modern day, in assessing people for employment, so expect to walk from

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cheque. -- 6 Thatcher or friendship. This is because we have new and

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greater knowledge about sexuality and how it arises, and we can

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rejoice in the gift that makes us the way we are. It is indeed, I

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believe, time for our church to lift this barrier. And allow those

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of single sex orientation in committed, proven relationships of

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civil partnership, into our Ministry. From Kent concluded his

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powerful contribution to the debate by surprisingly withdrawing his

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mission altogether and supporting the theological Commission's

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revisionist option. There was a further surprise to come. Last

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year's Moderator proposed a 4th option. It represented a compromise

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by the traditionalists. If the Church were to maintain its

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historic and current doctrine and practice in relation to human

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sexuality, that is that sexual activity should be confined to

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unmarried heterosexual couples, than any -- are then in the

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congregation which chose to ordain a gay minister could so do. I speak

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for people in this room who it is even painful to talk of these

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things. We might be wrong. So we need to be gracious and listened to

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be worked and listened to others, and be prepared to move a little.

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And so I ask that you take that step with me, and at a ask that you

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vote for my mission. Because it gives everyone what they want, but

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it will keep us together. It will not be what everybody designers,

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because we will all in some way be hurting. -- everybody desires, but

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we will have moved a little bit and confounded the critics that we

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cannot stay together as God's people. And so finally, late

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yesterday afternoon, the three options were debated. I believe

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this is the time for the Church, particularly traditionalists like

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me, to concede to allow others who disagree space to express that

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disagreement. In the life and witness of individual conned --

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congregation's and in the wider church. My reading of the Gospels

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is that Jesus did not regard all biblical text as being written in

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stone. Many major changes in the Church's thinking were brought

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about in the last 200 years by the interpretation again of scripture

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in the light of Christ's example and his teaching. I think of the

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abolition of slavery, the ordination of women. The acceptance

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of inter-racial marriages. In the debate that took place in all these

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instances, biblical texts were quoted by those who were opposed to

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change. I think I am correct when I say that today, only a very small

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minority would want to turn the clock back with regard to any of

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these matters. This is our opportunity as an assembly to send

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a clear message that everyone is welcome, but every one is loved by

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God. That everyone can be used and called by God in his service in

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this church. It is not that we will be out of step with everyone.

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Absolutely not. It is that we are standing up for principles that we

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have heard earlier on today of justice, justice for the people of

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God, for the ministers of God, for the ministers in this dumb --

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denomination, for all those involved in the ministry. This is

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our moment. Not next year, not the year after. It is a moment to start

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the ball rolling. Today, nobody, at least within this church for the

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least that slavery is acceptable or that women are second-class cysts -

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- citizens. And few people today still cling to the idea that

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homosexuality is a choice. If you do, ask yourself when you decided

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to be straight. Rather, gay and lesbian people, like all

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heterosexual, are made by God in the image of God and are loved by

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God. Equals, all of us. Equal in the eyes of God. So let us not put

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ourselves in the position where in 10 or 20 years' time people are

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saying of us, how on earth could anyone consider that gates or

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lesbians were somehow second class to citizens on not worthy to be

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treated as equals? All, why on earth did it take so long for

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enlightenment to come? There is a level of incredulity in many parts

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of the wider Christian church, as they wonder, what on earth we are

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thinking of. We have a theological Commission who had said to us that

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this is a lifestyle which does not honour God, which is not promoted

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in the Bible as being a good way to live. Not orientation, but activity.

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And yet, we are thinking of turning our backs on scripture and voting

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this way, of changing the tradition that this denomination has had for

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many, many years, and throwing it out because of what society is

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telling us. My father, my grandfather served as elders in the

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Church of Scotland before I did. I was converted to the Church of

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Scotland through a summer mission Cheam -- team. My children were

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brought up in the Church of Scotland. Both of my sons, I am

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thrilled to say, are active in their Crich -- Christian witness

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and work. Both of them now find that the only way to exercise their

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faith is out with the Church of Scotland, because they see the

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Church of Scotland as going down a path that turns its back on

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scripture. I would like to urge the assembly and commissioners present

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here to consider mission in their deliberations today, and mission to

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adults who were under 40, and I'd only just fit into that bracket

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myself. There are a number of people who worship regularly with

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us and we regularly offer inquirers courses to discuss issues of faith.

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I feel I need to make some views heard from those discussions but I

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have had. We have had one particular woman whose face was

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growing, who had come to a strong faith, but he felt she could not

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join the Church of Scotland because of the traditional view and

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perception on same-sex lectureships. To her it was a block and it did

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not match her experience of the compassionate and unconditional

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love of God and Christ. For her, she was not prepared to join the

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church and make her vows and grow further in her faith because of the

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position of the church on the subject. For me, it is personal. We

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have got bigger things to look at, but for me there is nothing bigger

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as to whether I am accepted in this cheque or not. From 1994, it has

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been debated and am I accepted in this church or not because I am a

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gay women? It undermines my very call, it undermines my place with

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good. It is now time to decide. So that those of us who are in this

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opportunity to be able to contribute to this the discussion when this

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discussion first emerged a number of years ago, our General Assembly

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received it with a great degree of sadness and also heart searching. As

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we spoke earlier about our relationship and the significance of

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that relationship, with sadness I do have to convey to this Assembly that

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if the Assembly follows a particular trajectory, has described in the

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revisionist approach, then that will cause serious tension between our

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two denominations, our churches. That is a hard and, perhaps, sad

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thing to say. But it will cause us great heart searching. And, I think,

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fundamentally, it causes us great heart searching because we find it

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hard to comprehend how the spirit of God would lead a church away from

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what we understand the clear teaching of scripture to be. This is

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a profoundly theological discussion and about the nature of ministry.

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Theological, it's about the nature of God. A God who made us, a God who

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loves us, a God who created us in miss own image, unique and precious

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in his eyes. How could we then believe that this God would call one

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and not another because one has one form of inherent sexuality and is in

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one form of a loving and committed relationship, and not call another

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who is in another kind of relationship because they have

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another God-created sexuality? During these four years, while

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controversy has been hanging over the Church of Scotland, as has been

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said already in this Assembly, we have lost many people, we have lost

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congregations, we have lost ministers, with he have lost members

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and we have lost a lot of money. While many other congregations and

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many more individual members of congregations have really been

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hanging on by the skin of their teeth, hoping against hope, and

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praying indeed, that the church will not only make up its mind, once and

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for all where it stands, but that we'll make up its mind to stand by

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that which it constantly professes to be it issual prepare rule of

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faith and life. Because, moderator, I want to suggest to the Assembly

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that is really what is at stake. Much of the discussion of course and

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media interest has focussed on issues relating to homosexual

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practice. That is the presenting issue, not the basic issue. The

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basic issue is whether this church stands by the teaching of scriptures

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or whether we think that we know better than the God who, as the

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church down the centuries has believed, inspired the writing of

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the scriptureses. I can't tell you how difficult it is for me to hear,

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as we heard just a few moments ago, somebody saying that those of us who

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are revisionist do have that view because we want to fit in with

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society. Give me a break, disagree with my position if you want, at

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least believe that I'm taking this seriously. I believe that God's

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doing a new thing and leading us to a new understanding. For all the

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people quoting of the Bible, I am remind of the story of Peter seeing

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the sheet come down with the unclean food and being asked to eat and

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Peter said - lord I can't eat this, this is unclean. Where was he

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getting it from? It was God's laws. Here is God tearing up the rule book

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and God saying - don't call unclean what I'm calling clean. God was

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bringing Peter to a new understanding. God is always

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bringing us to new understandings and inviting more people in.

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Scriptures says an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Jesus says

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turn another cheek. That is both new and different. Sam 134 says we must

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be so angry with our enemies we must take our babies by the ankles and

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smash their brains against the rocks. Then Jesus says, love your

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enemy. Both new, and different. It's the love of Jesus that makes the

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difference. I conclude with something that happened with me in

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South Africa. I had an elder, probably a stronger believer than I

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can ever be, his son was gay and he was (inaudible) too. For weeks he

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couldn't sleep or eat. He came to me crying saying, I'm passionate about

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the work and I love my son. What should I do? If I follow the Bible

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it says I should put my son to death. Jesus says, maybe I should

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try to love. I feel if I just love my son I'm going to betray the word.

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I asked him a simple question. Does Jesus love your son? He said, yes. I

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said, there is your answer. Father and son were reunited. The father

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stayed straight and the son stayed gay. But they are still held

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together in the love of Jesus. ago, like many people, I thought I

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didn't know any gay people. I really believed that until I moved to the

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United States of America and suddenly I was in a church where

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there were gay people in many pews. I learned so much from that

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experience that year living there, came back and saw the world with

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different eyes. Some of the best ministers of the word, some of the

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best ministers of the Goss spell that I have met and worked with in

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the United States, in South Africa, in Ghana, in North India and here in

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Scotland and in these islands are gay people who happen, they are

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ministers of the Goss spell who happen tonne -- to be gay.

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compromise won the day. If the church maintains it's traditional

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opposition to gay ministers. The legislation to enable it to happen

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will be presented to next year's General Assembly. I think the way

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the church voted today meant that it affirmed again that the

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traditionalist point of view is the fall back position of the church.

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That is where we are. We recognise today that the church is broad in

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its understanding of this particular issue. People are passionate on both

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sides about this. Isn't this going to be seen by the wider world as yet

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another deferral? I don't think it's deferral of a decision. I think we

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have made a significant decision today to say that the traditionalist

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orthodox view that the church had all these years has been affirmed,

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but yet we recognise that some congregations may wish to opt-out of

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that. I suppose I was disappointed the church didn't take its chance to

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affirm once and for all ministers in same-sex partnerships I'm pragmatic

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enough to realise what the church voted for was a step forward and

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something for unity, which is really important of course. I think,

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hopefully, down-the-line it will take some time, but down-the-line it

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will start to make some changes and some steps forward. Pragmatic is a

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good word because the counter motions got a bit of everything in

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it. Can it work 1234 I think it can, as long as everyone is willing to

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make it work. I think that is the key thing now is we move forward

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there has to be a lot of understanding and a lot of trust and

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the ability to make it work and wanting to make it work. I think

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it's so important that the church does hold the unity. If this is the

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way to do it, then I think it just means that every side of the

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argument has to now work to make it happen and that is Assembly level as

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well as press per Tory and congregations level. We have work to

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do to ensure that proposal is workable around the principles that

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were set out and we will have to look very closely at the draft

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legislation next year. There is is still a long way to go. It will take

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another two years of careful drafting and discussion before we

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can get to a stage of implementing the proposal that was put forward

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yesterday. I think there are concerns about the equalities

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legislation and how we protect people from civil action and the

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legal experts will have to look at all of that again very carefully.

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Could you unwrap that a bit and explain what that means? Well, it

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was clear from the supplementary report this year that the church had

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entered into quite detailed discussions with the Equalities

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Commission and had obtained a letter of comfort, which explained how the

:26:14.:26:20.

church could set out a regime in which there might be a kind of dual

:26:20.:26:25.

practice or mixed economy with neither side vulnerable to

:26:25.:26:30.

litigation through the civil courts. That will remain an anxiety at the

:26:30.:26:34.

next stage when we have to produce further legislation according to the

:26:34.:26:39.

principles of this new version of the mixed economy. The vote for

:26:39.:26:43.

Albert Bogle's counter motion wasn't unanimous. Do you think it

:26:43.:26:48.

represented the settled will the of the Assembly? It represents the

:26:48.:26:50.

settled will of the commissioners this year. Another set of

:26:50.:26:56.

commissioners will require to vote on it next year and the press per

:26:56.:26:59.

tearies in the interim after which there will be a further General

:26:59.:27:02.

Assembly which will require to vote on it. I think what is significant

:27:02.:27:08.

is that the successful motion yesterday came from the more

:27:08.:27:14.

traditionalist wing of the church. That may actually result in it

:27:14.:27:18.

gathering broad support over the next couple of years. So, do you

:27:18.:27:24.

think the unity and peace of the Kirk is secure? I think for the

:27:24.:27:28.

moment it is. There will be some people who will remain unhappy and

:27:28.:27:34.

we may see some erosion of members and ministers. We have already

:27:34.:27:39.

witnessed that over the last year or two. I wouldn't like to predict that

:27:39.:27:45.

that will suddenly cease, but I don't think we are going to see

:27:45.:27:48.

widespread disaffection at this stage, at least I hope not. Do you

:27:48.:27:51.

think it will go anyway to addressing something I know you are

:27:51.:27:56.

very worried about, which is the recruitment or application of

:27:56.:28:01.

candidates for training for the Ministry? I hope that it might. We

:28:01.:28:05.

have seen a very sharp decline, almost a disappearance of candidates

:28:05.:28:12.

over the last two or three years. I know, talking to ministers of lead

:28:12.:28:15.

leading congregations, that is not unconnected with this particular

:28:15.:28:20.

issue. I would hope that if the church can find a way forward on

:28:20.:28:28.

this issue and can continue to embrace its important evangelical

:28:28.:28:33.

constituent we might see the return of evangelical candidates for

:28:33.:28:37.

ministerial training in the near future. There is a lot more being

:28:37.:28:40.

debated at the Assembly than sex, we will be reporting on some of the

:28:40.:28:45.

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