Episode 12 Sunday Morning Live

Ten years after the Twin Towers collapsed an half of us still

associate Islam with terrorism. What does that say about our

relationships with Muslims? Are we demonising round three million good

Good morning. Welcome to Sunday morning live. Today we will hear

two controversial views on the legacy of the terror attacks which

killed 3,000 ten years ago. Tell us, do you agree with them? Since 9/11

suspicion and fear of Islam has increased. A fear of terrorism may

be understandable, but one British imam says it has made us demonise

fellow Britons. There is no room for Muslims in the UK today,

however hard we try to integrate. Many non-Muslims hold Muslims with

contempt. After the attacks, the response, wars in Afghanistan and

Iraq costing thousands of lives, and billions of pounds. A colossal

mistake? Not according to this expert. The war on terror was the

right response. It is working and Britain is right to be involved.

It's the best way to stop global terrorism. My ges this morning each

made their names for marching straight up to a mast and nailing

their colours to it. Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens was a

reporter in among other places America, Iraq, and Iran. He nearly

got himself lynched in Africa. Ajmal Masroor is age nam who stood

as a Liberal Democrat MP. He has front add TV series showing non-

believers how to live as a Muslim. Angela Epstein writes for the

Jewish chronicle and considers herself a professional Mancunian.

She took flak for backing a Britishism D card. We would like to

know what you think this morningle call in to challenge our guests or

A British Muslim was convicted on Friday of plotting to kill British

soldiers. A sign Muslims just don't buy into the British part of being

a Muslim? Ajmal Masroor doesn't see Since 9/11, there has been a rise

in attacks on Muslim men and women, on mosque, even on the Koran. The

Prophet Mohammed is regular herly vilified. Muslim graves have been

desecrated. Many have accused Muslims of not integrating into the

society. That is far from the truth. They have failed to recognise

integration is a two way process. I have suffered acute forms of racism,

including physical vie -- violence against me and my family. Despite

this, I am still very proud to be British. I am equally very proud to

be a Muslim. Most important for me I am very proud to be a productive

and integrated it is seven of this country. Muslims want to integrate.

In fact, they are required to integrate by the teachings of their

faith. There are those who keep putting up barriers and spreading

hate. Those who oppose multiculturalism for Britain are

part of the problem. The media plays its role by reporting anti-

Muslim sentiment on a regular basis. The headlines read Islamic

extremist. Muslim terrorist and Islamist bombers. Islam, violence

and terrorism have become synonymous in the eyes of the

general public. Muslim bashing has become culturally acceptable. I am

increasingly getting the feel there is is no room for Muslims or Islam

in the UK any more P -- more. He joins us this morning. Alongside

you, Angela Epstein, I want to ask you first, Ajmal Masroor's argument

is approximately 5% of the population might feel feared and

persecuted. That is unacceptable isn't it? I think it is nonsense

that we are demonising Muslims this any way. I think the fact we are

asking the question is part of the problem, because it speem speaks

volumes of the paranoia, and the blame cultural that pervaids in,

albeit a minority part of culture, but it is a very voluble part of

that minority. We will come back to Ajmal Masroor, that is the question

for our text vote. Are Muslims We will show you how you voted at

the end of the programme. So, your point, Angela, is this is just a

complete misconception on the part of that percentage of the

population? I think unfortunately, there are a lot of peaceable

Muslims who just want to, as was said in the report, integrate and

live a British life. Speaking as a Jewish girl, I consider myself

British first and foremost, but Jewish, and I see that as a

mutually exclusive situation. I don't feed off Britain and Britain

don't exist for my benefit. Will is a lot of Muslims that feel that way,

that are British Muslims and are happy do that. I think there are

certain quarters that speak loudly about the fact they are somehow,

they sort of place a blame on the fact they are not allowed to

practise, the way they want to, and have propagated this blame culture.

So is that, are you responsible for pushing a blame culture? This isn't

going on Angela says, it is a few people with loud voices complaining.

I think she is talking about her own experience, which one has to

respect. If for example I'm not disintegrated. I am very integrated.

I am an active member of a political party so I am involved in

society and forming what we call tomorrow's and our future. What I

am saying is simple, and if you are a Muslim, if you are eight times

more likely to be stopped and searched by profiling. You are

young Muslim of Asian background you are eight times more likely to

be unemploy. If you are a young Muslim oration of a particular

background, you are more likely not to perform as well many your school,

or not get particular jobs you want. Then we have got security measures

we have seen, particularly targets the Muslims those who have been

stopped and searched and detained are Muslims. Increasing fear,

remember in my report I said I am getting the feeling the environment

we are seeing that has been created by media and institutions are

giving this feeling and the rising of the feeling, that there may not

be much room for Muslims to live in this country. Saying that, Britain

has got more inclusive Islamic values than other countries. I am

Britten British, this is my home. I am talking about my country, where

I am feeling marginalised. So next to you somebody who writes in the

British media, Peter Hitchens, does Ajmal Masroor's evidence amount to

a process of deem myisation ?. think he is overdoing it a bit. We

have to distinguish between legitimate reporting of the fact

that some Muslims have been, for instance arrested, tried and

convicted for terrorist offences. Some Muslims have stood up in our

streets and said extremely unpleasant things about our country.

We can all tell the div rens between those Muslims and other

Muslims, we know perfectly well this isn't a general feature of all

Muslim, for heavens sake, we have a minister in the Cabinet who is a

Muslim. We have Muslims in the House of Lords, this country has

done a great deal. Some of us think perhaps too much to accommodate

itself to the Muslim religion, children are often taught in

schools rather more about Islam than Christianity. I simply don't

think that, it is not impossible for Muslims to live here stands up

to examination. To demonise would be to be inventing thins which

hadped happened, to be starting chants. Take the example of

newspapers reporting Islamist terrorist, bomber, Islamic

terrorist and bombers are oxy moron, one cannot be Muslim and a

terrorist. Do you not? You have writ on a regular basis showing

there is a systematic taking over the society by Muslims and Islam.

These are deem anyisation that happen slowly.. Can I answer that

question as to why it is legitimate to refer to Islamic terrorists. You

will find in writings of people like Bin Laden a complete linking

of their faith with the actions they are undertaking, they believe

their actions are justified by their faith. You, you... Do with

call an American Christian far right, a terrorist, with don't.

There is an inconsistency sni the language you use.. If anybody had

done in the name of Christianity what Osama Bin Laden did in the

name of Islam we would be entitled to do so. Let us not get... Priest

in the name of Christianity. crusades stopped a long time ago.

We are talking about now. I wonder, it is a difficult thing for people

to disentangle. That 19 men, between them, get on planes, and

fly them, and kill 3,000 people as an act of terrorism and say it is

linked with Islam. And it is hard then, for people, some people, to

disentangle the name of Islam from terrorism. We know from a poll, 50%

associate Islam with terrorism. How intellectually can you help people

disentangle that. Simple. Look at your neighbour, look at the vast

majority of people living in this country. There are three million

according to your report, over one billion muscleys across the globe.

99.9% of them are like you and me. Normal human being, getting on with

life. As they are the measure, the yard stick, the minority, we all

have rotten apples in our society. We can't mesh society by one or two.

Because one or two or a group of individuals small in number have

take then hijacked the message of Islam. We are brushing whole of

Islam by it, even if your reporting.. No we are not. We are

making the distinction. The distinction is made. If people, if

people's actions are reported and what you are complaining about is

when people are arrested, tried and convicted for terrorist offence,

that is because they have been arrested... Arrested tried and

convicted. They haven't been arrested and tried for being Muslim.

They have been arrested and tried for doing something wrong. We don't

arrest people for religion. I think part of the hostility that has been

fabricated is because as Peter said, there has almost bing been an

overaccommodation of Muslim values in this country. How? I will give

you an example. To complete my point, this is a Christian country,

we have Anglo Saxon values. That is not true. It is a multicultural

society. Let me finish. This is a Christian country. It has Anglo

Saxon values f you join the team you wear the shirt. If I want to

play for Manchester United I don't think, I don't suit the colour red,

I am going to wear a blue shirt. I don't expect as a Jewish girl for

all the shops to close on Saturday because I observer the Sabbath but

in newspapers, but they reflect what is going on there, will talk

about a necessity for Halal meat to be served. I don't expect KFC to

serve kosher meat. If they don't I will go to a kosher butcher. There

is this complaint about not having values from a particular ethnic

community made so loudly among other quarters. Take the example of

KFC, did you know their decision to go KFC, it was for them it was a

fantastic economic decision so they would make more money. You make an

interesting point here, which I, could I elaborate. It is often the

actions not of Muslims but people in this country seeking, in many

cases wrongly, to apiece a Muslim demand, so you get Christmas,

Christmas being abandoned about referred to as the holidays because

some people think it will offend Muslims. It is a sad story that

Christianity, or Christmas is not being celebrated. That is

multiculturalism. We celebrate each other's goodness. We create a co-

hee Si society. We accept each other's values. What you are

suggesting is create a mono culture, similar to the one into one melting

pot, you have no individual values. That is not how society works.

want to go back to a phrase that I think you raised Peter. Fabricated

hostility. Angela. Apologises. Angela, fabricated hostility. Dr

Is the hospitality -- is it fabricated? No, it is not. I have

visited organisations that have suffered "hate" crimes since 9/11.

That is to say attacks that range from arson attacks, fire bombing

attacks and broken windows. It is around the country as well. There

is nothing fabricated in the analysis. Because of the work I

have done as a police officer and as an academic researcher, it is

quite a familiar account. Having said that, when one is dealing with

Act's of violence, we should always keep in perspective and I am

encouraged in London that the vast majority of London citizens

recognise it is a multicultural society. Last weekend, in Tower

Hamlets, when the rather provocative and Islamophobia at

English Defence League Came to protest, there was a wonderful

display of solidarity with Jewish leaders, Christian leaders and

Muslim leaders working together to combat this type of hatred. Now we

have Amanda from the Federation of student societies. Do you

experience this? A lot of focus has been put on the potential

radicalisation of Muslim students within universities. I think every

Muslim or the majority of them having some way been affected by

Islamophobia. It is something that stretches right back to the very

early days of contact between Islam and Christendom. Recently, with

regard to universities, I have seen the readiness by government to look

at Muslims as all being a potential threat to British society. We have

seen legislation passed where lecturers have been passed to spy

it on their students, which is absurd given that students are

making attempts to contribute to university campus life. We have a

vice-president who is Muslim. you. You sound is breaking up a bit.

Amanda, there is the evidence of the hostility. One former terrorism

expert and a student. That is not to say that hostile activity does

not take place but when we talk about appeasement, the root of it

is Theo. We are using a word, phobia. It is almost becoming a

self fulfilling prophecy. It is almost the new anti-Semitism. It is

almost like a denial of up -- what happened to the Jewish community.

It was a disgraceful episode in history. That is how it began.

you would let me finish. Looking at the to as a parallel, anti-Semitism

is on a rise in this country. In Manchester, there are more anti-

Semitic attacks per capita than anywhere else in the country.

horrible. Any kind of races them is an acceptable. But what we are

missing is the fundamental argument that everyone should be free to

practise their ethnic or cultural practices but it should not be

imposed upon the Niger at -- larger, national character. I'm saying the

same thing, that raises some is not acceptable against races at --

Muslims or Jews or whatever but we are seeing institutional and slow

Islamophobia at which is causing a serious problem in the Muslim

community as well as the greater community. Can we examine this more

carefully. There are lot of people in this country subject to all

kinds of violence and not all racially motivated. Our criminal or

justice system is not quite up to the task. In all cases this is

wrong and should be addressed. It isn't necessarily just bad because

it happens to Muslims. These things are crimes and they should be

prevented and prosecuted and we all agree. The question is what kind of

society we are. I object that Islamophobia is being used as if to

have any doubts about the philosophy of Islam means some kind

of mental disorder. I would not beat -- would not like to be

subject to Sharia law as they don't like the attitude towards women. I

have disagreements with Islam which are fundamentally Christian

disagreements. You have had your say. Go for your polemic. Let me

make a point as to why this has -- this should remain a Christian

country. Everything you care to name is based upon Christianity. If

Muslims want to live here, I am happy for them to do so and would

like -- regard them as allies but they have to accept it is

fundamentally a Christian country and integrate into it as such.

are in the 21st century. Let me give you an example. The most eaten

food today it is influenced by Bangladeshi is. It is easier said

than done. I would like to talk to a diplomatic representative, or

former one any way he was the first British ambassador overseas. Good

morning to you. This idea has been raised that there is something

separate about the Muslim community, calls for separate forms of justice,

clothing and halal food. Do you see that as a separate nurse that is

part of the problem? There is this idea of being separate. What we

should look to it is the sense that people speak the language,

understand the culture and that they understand the country they

are joining. And that they show a greater determination to integrate

and they have or some have. There are 3 million, or thereabouts,

Muslim in this country and it is a growing population. It is open and

-- oversimplifying to say that because they are not loved, which I

do not think is true, most people do not even think about it. They

are here and it is up to those here to make a greater effort. You

cannot shove a square peg into a round hole without reshaping the

peg a bit. That is where the emphasis should live. We have a

call her now. Hassan, what is your view? I believe that Islam is being

demonised but I would say it is not the fault of the British community

who might have a sense of fear. That maybe because extremists are

given a lot of time in media coverage. The majority of British

people like us are not getting the media coverage and we should shout

louder and get of voice across. The media could have a bit more

responsibility in not covering the extremists, which they have been

doing. As a Muslim, I still feel safe to be in Britain. More so than

in America at the time of the attacks. We can get befuddled by

their numbers game. There are an increasing number of Muslims and

more people are eating a certain type of diet she Christine. I do

not see that is relevant. This is a country built on certain Christian,

Anglo-Saxon values or call them what you will. If we celebrate

Christian -- Christmas here, does that mean that because more people

are coming to this country who historically or culturally are not

people who celebrate it, we should stop. Nobody is suggesting that.

You didn't let me finish. Let us celebrate Christmas and Jewish the

celebrations but there is nothing wrong in recognising that Britain

has changed fault Matt -- fundamentally and it is

multicultural. If you have a Christian society and suddenly

under at the quality and diversity laws, Christianity is treated as

equal to all other religions then it ceases to be a Christiane

society and a multicultural society that -- Society card co-exist with

that. That is an argument based on creating a monoculture. That is not

the 21st century of Britain in which we live. It is multicultural.

There are Muslims, Jews, Hindus and people of no faith. This is the

beauty of our country. Angela raised the point that the Muslim

population has increased but you argument is that there is no place

for Muslims? Increasingly, the Culture, the reporting, the

institutional barriers, the arrests, the detention without trial, the

whole culture is such that... increases in the population show

that that is not what people in the community feel. I call people to

come involve -- be involved in politics but you are creating an

environment to say, no matter how much you talk about integration you

have people on the right and left to say no matter what you do you

were not be accepted. People have come to this country over many

centuries because they like the way we govern it. If you come to a

place because you like the way it is run, it seems odd to seek to

change it. I want to talk to someone who is an immigrant --

immigrant and she is an author. I wonder if you feel there is a

special intolerance that is reserved for Muslims that does not

apply to other immigrants? I think There is a wariness about Muslims

precisely because it is from their part of the community that can the

people who blow us up. I was in London as an immigrant during the

time the IRA were blowing up British people and there were a lot

of whingeing and angry Irish, very much like - well, -- very much like

Ajmal Masroor, demanding that... And it was absurd. It was the Irish

blowing up the Brits and it was perfectly reasonable that Muslims

like the Irish then we getting special attention. The point I

would like to make, and I am with Angela on this, it is the job of

the immigrants to adapt to the host community. More than that, it is

the job of Muslims now, as it was the job of the Irish, to stand up

taller and say we will have no part of this. We reject it. The Muslims

are not doing that enough. Thank you. We can now talk to a rabbi. We

do it abject to the constant Labour link of individuals as Jews in the

same way that There is a sort of constant focus on Muslims and their

faith? Yes, I think I would object but there would be he a certain

justice to it. As an American who has lived here for 13 years and who

became a naturalised British citizen, I have a certain view on

this. When dues misbehave, it pains all Jews with a nasty brush --

paints. Jews have to stand up against it. When the Israeli do of

American origin committed a crime, but our synagogue, we had a rally

of Jews for atonement and for apology to Islam and to Muslims for

the terrible thing that they had We need to stand up to our own

terrorists we all have them. There is a certain percentage of every

society, of every group, which is, which is authoritarian, which is

bigoted, and each group has to stand up and of course the total

society has o stand up against them. I want to squeeze in Dr Chris Allen

who is a research fellow. The criticism is laid at Islam by some

for the extremist and we have heard the criticism of those with Islam

who don't stand up to the extremists, how do Muslims deal

with that? Well, one of the interesting things is just this

weekend 57 British Muslim organisations have signed up to a

statement distancing themselves from the 9/11 attacks and saying

they have no truck whatsoever with the ex treebgist, the Terry has do

things in the name of Islam. The British Muslim organisations have

been doing this for well over a decade now, even before 9/11 they

were distancing themselves from things going on that had lit toll

do with them whatsoever. So I think there is that question, how much

more to British Muslims need to do? There is an interesting thing that

the Rabbi said in terms of standing up against their own extremist, it

is an interesting question to ask, do we as white British people,

stand up against groups such as the British national party and the

English Defence League, who I would describe as being extremist who are

putting forward a message, that Muslims don't want to integrate

into this country, they are trying to Islam fi Britain. Some of the

argument has have come out this morning feed into the rhetoric of

the EDL. So people in society that, are just sitting there and

listening to them begin to see some sense or they think the. DL make

sense. This feeds into this climate. It is kind of a vicious cycle.

do you tackle that? One of the things is to stop demonising

Muslims and stop asking unrealistic demands of them. Some of the things

we asked this morning, you said at the start three million good

British citizen, how many of them those have been involved in

terrorism, a small minority. It is right we put this emphasis on the

whole of the Muslim community to take some responsibility for that,

which is untenable. There is good analogy of this, earlier in the

debate there was a suggestion that 19 Muslims who undertook the 9/11

attacks were some way representative of a billion Muslims

round the world. If we make the same sort of judgment in terms of

that. The Norwegian would suggest all Norwegian wants are far right

extremists and we don't make that leap of faith. It is questionable

as to why we do ha with Muslims. don't think anybody said they were

representative. I don't think anybody thinks it either. Nothing

of the kind was saying.. All other Muslims would need to distance

themselves from that. I don't see why we ask it of Muslims. The we

belong to a cultural group, whatever it is and whatever you

want to be, as long as you integrate nicely as well, you have

a certain moral responsibility. OK. I after 7/7 bombing in London... We

have been doing it until with are blue in the face. The problem is,

my guests and friends here, no matter what I do, they have

something else and that is they don't want multiculturalism. They

don't want a society where all religions and faiths. We do. That

is the problem. Just a final... This is a Christian society and it

should remain as such. It is not true. That is the text poll today.

Are Muslims being demonised. If you You have round 20 minutes before

the poll closes. As we speak, families and friends of those who

died on 9/11 are gathering to remember them, both in the UK and

later at Ground Zero. The mare of New York hasn't invited religious

leaders to lead prayers. Is that the right decision? Now you three

all have made it clear you are people of faith. The fact that

there are not going to be faith leaders at Ground Zero today, Peter,

how does that strike you? strikes me as very strange indeed

and regrettable, because apart from anything else the question which

religion seeks to answer is the question which confronts us all of

death. What it is -- what its sieve cans is. Whether there is anything

after it. Whether someone's life ends at death. It seems to me in

the commemoration of life the ability to offer some hope their

life has some eternal significance is very important, not just for

those who have lost them, but for a society as a whole, it its

understanding of what people we are. I think it is a regrettable retreat

in in the case of New Yorkers, a regrettable retreat from what has

seen to be a religious society in the US. Ajmal, the explanation is

they want to focus on the victims and their families. Do they not

want to focus on ridge unat this moment? Strangely think it is a

good thing, keeping them out of a private ceremony where people are

coming to commemorate the loved ones: For you to reach God or be

spiritual or reflect on eternity, u you don't need a cleric, you have

access yourself. I think it a good thing. It would be be a decorative

impact. It would not do much for me if someone dies in my family I want

something private. Especially years on. I want to remember them by

myself. So I say, I am with them, the families, and I don't want to

politicise, it is me saying goodbye, remembering people, playing for o -

- praying for them. I think it's a good thing. A private ceremony is

what this not going to be. No, it is not. Don't be shocked. I agree

with you. I think it would somehow undermine the fact that this was a

huge human tragedy, on a scale we hadn't seen before, or the like of

which we hadn't seen before in terms of audacity and the way it

was mounted and the way the world changed as a consequence of it. To

marginalise it in any way by bringing in religious leaders could

detract from the message. The chief Rab brie prepared a prayer to

commemorate the victims, because this was a human tragedy.

Individual religions can make their own kind of tribute to the victims

in their places of worship, but this was on the grand tapestry of

human tragedy, this was something that was all inclusive, and would

have been too limiting. We will discuss, sorry. In my mosque I

prayed for everybody, including people in Libya and Syria and 9/11

as well as those who have lost their lives in Norway, so it is a

cross faith like Laing said and we should keep it Private. We will

discuss the consequence of 9/11 later. You have been voting in our

text poll. We asked are Muslims being demonised. The poll is being

Klos t now so please don't text. We will bring you the result at the

Not in my name said a million who took to the streets but Tony Blair

took us into the war on terror any way. Ten years on, it looks to many

like a war without end. Even as the memorial services make the news, so

too does a high alert for another bomb attack. But terrorism expert

Robin Simcox says we were right to fight then and now. The war on

terror was the right response to 9/11. It is working, and Britain is

right to be involved. It is the best way to stop global terrorism.

Britain's links to Al-Qaeda inspired terrorism go back nearly

two decades. Throughout the 1990s hundreds of Brits fired up by

radical ideology fought in the likes of Kashmir and Afghanistan.

Yet this growing problem was essentially ignore by the British

political class. Then, on September 11th, Al-Qaeda massacred 3,000

innocent civilians in a matter of minutes. A clear declaration of war.

A robust western response was required. Not just launching

missiles from thousands of feet and hope poring the best as we had done

previously but dismantling terrorist networks. Britain joined

NATO allies in overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan. A

Government which allowed Al-Qaeda training camps, and a country which

had been used as a base from which to attack America. Yet the nature

of the threat as it revealed itself on 9/11 changed the way Britain and

America saw the world. There were huge problems in Iraq, but at least

now the country can look forward to a more optimistic future. What

would happen if a regime that supported terrorism and had a

history of using chemical and biological weapons against its own

people decided to give those weapons to terrorists that would

kill en masse. It was this that led Britain into Iraq. Al-Qaeda started

this war against the west. But it misjudged our resolve. The

leadership had been killed. The ideology is bankrupt and its morale

is low. We are winning. A none military response to 9/11 would

have been a victory for global terrorism. Yes, it has cost us

British lives and tax payers' money, but the sacrifice has been worth it.

And Robin Simcox joins us. We are joined by Mehdi Hasan and the

American political commentator Charlie Wolfful you can join in by

webcam or make your point by phone, text or e-mail or on line. Wouldn't

it be a nightmare if we were facing a nuclear armed Taliban? Yes, let

us not forget, it is our misconceived and counter productive

war on terror which has heightened the threat from the Taliban which

exacerbated the threat from Al- Qaeda, which has acted as

recruiting side. -- arjaant. We have created over the last ten

years far more tourists than we have killed or capture and the war

on terror has given us more war and terror. What was the right response

to planes going into towers and killing 3,000 people? The first

point is the war on terror, you have to understand why it was the

wrong response, you don't declare war on terrorism, on a method on a

tactic and you don't give inmis. War on terrorists then. What Bush

and Blair gave enemies, they gave them what they craved most, status

of holy warrior, they are not warrior, they were criminals and

they should have been treated as criminals. That has been the most

successful way of dealing with terrorists. We gifted Bin Laden

with the war that he was after. we, what we did, if you look back

on history it didn't start with 9/11 and we treated them as

criminals, prior to that. One of the things that Bin Laden thought

was America was a paper tiger and he spoke very movingly about the

strong horse and the weak horse. He wanted a battle and we did respond.

I don't think it necessarily created terrorists but it did bring

Jihadist and terrorists, fast forward to Iraq, it brought them

there, where we killed them. I think that was the right thing tho

do we had to respond, and I think the proof of the pudding is in the

eating. It brought them to London, it brought them to all sorts of

places round the world. This idea they will go to Iraq, we will fight

them there. In America we are told there is a terror alefrt. There are

three Al-Qaeda operatives allegedly running round the streets of

America. The body scanners and that are working, the reason we know

about them is we have a more robust intelligence service, one of the

things the Patriot Act did was allowed the CIA to talk to the FBI

so we have a knowledge of the threats so we can fight them. We

are aware of them. You defend the war on terror, former head of MI5

said, it became a recruiting sergeant for terrorists,

particularly the invasion of Iraq. The ex-CIA member who was tasked

with finding Bin Laden, said "We moved Al-Qaeda on from being a man

and a group, to being a philosophy and a movement." Did the war on

terror create a war on terror? don't think so stkwhroi o separate

Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan, there was no real credible

alternative to getting involved, dismantling the terrorist training

camps that were based in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda weren't going

to do this if we asked nicely. It has to be a military response.

Afghanistan a safer place as a result? It certainly has less Al-

Qaeda training caps -- camps. is more violence though. It is

being attacked by suicide bombers who are trying to hold back. The

forces of democracy the things people voted for. We displaced

terrorist from Afghanistan to elsewhere. That is why we are

bombing Pakistan with drone attack, the idea you can bomb terrorism out

of existence is ab -- absurd. there is more to the argument than

that. Bush said it would take a long time, ten to 20 years an he

did say, he talked about a freedom agenda, bringing freedom to

countries where they would not be oppressed. That I have a chance now.

Our war on terror has reduced freedom in the wofrpltd it gave us

If we go from the base and say that Iraq was partial leak wedded lies

in certain sections -- partially radicalisation. Do we not backed

because there is a fee that it may radicalisation a minority of the

minority? That is having foreign policy held hostage to mass opinion.

How did the invasion of Iraq further the purposes of the war on

terror? It was taken from a view that

Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons and the fear he would pass them on

to groups such as Al-Qaeda. The threat perception shifted and

regimes seen as containable all of a sudden were not. One major

General is the format UK head of reconstruction in Iraq. What effect

did the war have on the ground in Iraq? I would like to make a couple

of comments. We need to see this within the context of what happened.

Since the end of the Cold War, the ongoing terrorist attacks

throughout those years also and in that time I was involved in a

number of those conflicts, from Northern Ireland to Iraq and the

first Gulf War. What I black -- began to realise is whether it is

Catholics all Muslims, we have people essentially involved in

engaging in power and greed. There are no goodies or baddies and

terror has been a constant throughout. The war on terror was

like declaring a war on sin or greed. It was a fine objective but

it was naive that we could raise his victory flag. In that context,

is Iraq or Afghanistan achieving anything? In many respects the

answer is yes and No. We have got rid of brutal regimes and people

and I sense that what is happening in the Middle East and the Arab

world is at least partially as a result of that. But have we

defeated terrorism, or --? No, it hasn't. One person who has seen the

effects directly is one after aren't woman. Is it a safe place to

be as a result of the war on terror? First of all, I should say

that no doubt 9/11 was a very sad day. After the troops left

Afghanistan, it was abandoned by the international community and

foreign groups were then in Afghanistan. I if millions of

Afghan -- millions of Afghan women, it was a good thing for them

because they could go to school, go back to work or they could

literally come out of their homes that they were imprisoned in during

the Taliban. Where are we 10 years after? No one can say that no

progress has been made in Afghanistan. The billions of pounds

spent in Afghanistan and as eight from the international community...

Fortunately, since 2004 and 2005, I have travelled to Afghanistan

constant leak, and schools and hospitals have been built. Robin,

your son was the 300 skilled -- soldier killed in the Afghan war.

Does this make you think it was a war that was worth fighting?

initial response to 9/11 was right. However, the phrase "war on terror"

is clearly not a good phrase to use. The initial response was great but

we then had a vacuum where the diversion of Iraq took place. All

the progress that should have been made in Afghanistan to stabilise

that country and build on the progress being made was lost whilst

the war on Iraq the war -- diverted attention. You then moving to the

stage where we going to Helmand province in 2006 and we failed in

one of the mink - might military principles. We don't understand

what the aim is. We should not be going to war to open schools or to

open shops. Whilst those are symptoms of success, it is not

success in it -- in its own right. I'm not sure we can define what

success is. To come back to the idea that wars in Afghanistan and

Iraq are linked to protecting ourselves from terrorism. We were

in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting jihadist when we were in London in

seven itsu. The bombers stated in their videos that the reason they

attacked us was that we were over their attacking them. That goes

back to the argument you cannot let you foreign policy being dictated.

Every study shows occupation leads to terrorism. We had home-grown

terrorism which has to be addressed and it doesn't have anything to do

with British foreign policy. It was an excuse they used to validate it.

Your last guest... Yes, there are arguments on tactics and strategy.

I have friends who say we should have gone over there, propped them

up and left. In answer to the argument about Iraq been a

diversion. It wasn't to Osama Bin Laden. It was a central front about

going back to Kuwait and the American troops presence in Saudi

Arabia. It goes back even to 1000 years of history. I want to bring

in... The 1990s, Brits were fighting in Chechenia, Bosnia and

Afghanistan. It was in created by as due to 9/11. The phrase the war

on terror is criticised. And it hasn't been used by the American

government for five years. Robin finished. We can overstate

the impact we are having on this. The on -- ideology has a movement

that is independent of us. Maybe some of our foreign policy

decisions aggravated but the idea it would disappear if we removed

our troops from certain lands and stayed at home is bizarre. Let me

ask Professor Paul Rodgers at Bradford University the question.

With the war on terror, would it end if we beat Drew? I don't think

it necessarily would. It was understandable the reaction of the

Bush administration but the problem was it was faulty. I would agree

that it should have been seen as an example of appalling mass

transnational criminality. Consequences have to be factored in.

There is clear evidence that 225,000 people have died in the

last 10 years and nearly 8 million refugees. It has turned out so

catastrophically different to what was expected that the argument

being put, that it should have been treated as criminality, as was put

by the head of MI5 last week, that has to be taken more seriously. We

cannot extricate ourselves easily from this predicament but we have

to recognise that the way this was set up as a war against terror

basically elevated this nasty grouping to something greater and

it was counter-productive. I have to disagree. I have Dean - Maxine

this discussed. I don't know how fast the words "the war on terror"

was come up with but 10 years later, governments are using it and so are

we. But the term is a short and has worked. My family were killed -- is

my family were killed by a drone strike I might want to take up arms

against America. Here is an important thing. Why is it that, if

all the stuff pushed it was wrong, we are at -- now have a Democratic

Liberal President who said that Guantanamo Bay was a staying on the

nation. It is kept open because it is a political reality and a

necessity. We have to leave it. The poll vote is in. We asked at the

beginning of the programme, we are Muslims being demonised? 28% of

those who text did in agreed that they are being demonised in the UK

to date whereas 72% said they are not. You are a Muslim. Do you feel

demonised? Not personally. There is a case where British Muslims are

being demonised. We still do have a great role and I would rather live

here than in any other countries. I work in the media and if you look

at the Muslims -- newspapers, you can now say things about Muslims

you cannot say about any other minority group and that is a fact.

If Britain was the place that has been suggested, there would be

thousands of Muslims leaving. I don't think it is that type of

place. It is a tolerant place where freedom of religion is entirely

respected. I do not see this picture that has been put trade.

And do you feel defined by your religion in the way that some

Muslims do? It is quite interesting to note how much anti-Semitic crime

has gone up in the last year. An event in Israel, which was and it -

- a decision by the elected government - and attacks on Jews

went up considerably. I n they have to look at the pages of the

Guardian to see where the stars of David I used in political argument.

You can't compare that to the daily coverage of British Muslims. I do

wonder that is a discussion for another programme and we have to

end now. Thank you all of you who helped us debate the legacy of 9/11

today. To my studio guests and to Ajmal Masroor, Angela Epstein and

are other guest who was with us earlier. You can continue his

conversation on line and the links are on our website. Next week, we